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Exeter Chiefs Headdress

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Post by Irish Londoner Wed 13 Oct 2021, 11:31 am

First topic message reminder :

From The Guardian yesterday:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/oct/12/wasps-ask-premiership-to-consider-ban-on-exeter-chiefs-headdresses

Wasps want to ban Exeter Chiefs fans from wearing native American style headdress to games as they believe that it may "cause offence".

I can understand Exeter's reluctance to give up on the Chiefs name but has the "Red Indian" imagery had it's time?

Would they be better to keep the Chiefs name but change the imagery, for example they could use a Saxon/Celtic warrior design to reflect the "Chief of the tribe" without using (appropriating?) native American images.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 29 Nov 2021, 10:30 am

profitius wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Surely no one group can claim to own the ‘warrior’ term as part of their history or culture? Everyone had warriors in their history. Therefore, ‘Warriors’ should be fine for any team around the world, right? Unless it’s prefixed with something relating to native Americans such as Tomahawk Warriors, or similar. And therein lies the issue I think, and it’s a good discussion point.

Warriors on its own is fine. We can all claim to have warriors in our history and culture. But Tomahawk Warriors would be offensive to native Americans so we can’t ‘borrow’ that, according to some. Celtic Warriors? Surely only Celtic nations can adopt that? But would anyone actually raise an objection to it in reality? And if they don’t does that make it fine for, say, an American team to be called Celtic Warriors or Celtic Marauders, or similar? I ‘feel’ Celtic being Welsh and have a genuine interest in it and read up a lot about Celtic history and legends. But I would love another nation to adopt a Celtic warriors name! In fact, they’d probably then become my team in something like NFL because I’d then have something to link me to them. Rather than supporting Chicago Bears as I do just because of The Fridge and Walter Payton back in the day! So I’m fine with it. Does that mean it’s ok? Does it just take one person (another 606 poster for example) to have an issue with it and then no one can use it? Who decides? How many offended do you need? How can we be consistent and apply things equally?

No that you reminded me, there is a south African team named Bloemfontein Celtic.


As mad as all this seems, just follow the money. There are hundreds or thousands of NGOs set up to milk these kind of things. Even outrage is turned to profit these days.
In the NBA one of the most famous clubs is the Boston Celtics.  Their main colour is green and they use Irish themed branding.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 29 Nov 2021, 12:24 pm

The Oracle wrote:I guess my question to you LD would be this: if an NFL team decided to rebrand as Celtic Warriors would you complain and protest about it to the point of stopping them from using that branding? Would your mates ‘up the club’ do the same also?


What is this supposed to mean ?

My mates down the club ?

I doubt they would care to be honest. Just the same as they do not give two hoots about Exeter using Chiefs and fans wearing feathered headdresses. You see, normal people do not take it upon themselves to be offended on behalf of others.

Why you are ranting at me though is a bit perplexing. Laugh

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Post by Guest Mon 29 Nov 2021, 12:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I guess my question to you LD would be this: if an NFL team decided to rebrand as Celtic Warriors would you complain and protest about it to the point of stopping them from using that branding? Would your mates ‘up the club’ do the same also?


What is this supposed to mean ?

My mates down the club ?

I doubt they would care to be honest. Just the same as they do not give two hoots about Exeter using Chiefs and fans wearing feathered headdresses. You see, normal people do not take it upon themselves to be offended on behalf of others.

Why you are ranting at me though is a bit perplexing. Laugh

Well, you trying to school me on Celtic history didn’t really help. “You do know that.....”, etc.

I think once again though we are arguing the same point. I’m tying to find out at what point something gets stopped due to a grumbling from a group. I too don’t care whether someone uses a Celtic symbol, image or name. As I said, I’d actually like it! So I’m trying to ascertain at what point a team in America, hypothetically, using a name like Celtic Warriors would be questioned over it and would potentially have to stop, go to court, etc. Does it take just 1 person (you said yourself that ‘Celtic’ could be a derogatory term and therefore offensive). So if just LD on his own says it does it lead to governing bodies taking action. Or does it need to be many more people? Like a group of people in a rugby club who are all in agreement that it is offensive? Or does it need to be thousands who get behind a campaign?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Nov 2021, 1:00 pm

If he could explain how it was offensive I'm sure he could take up the fight. Sometimes it just depends on how much the media and general pop. take it up. Take Spurs for example in football and their unofficial Jewish identity. I'm sure that it's mainly done from good will and there's plenty of people who support that (including Jews) and then there's the section of people who think chanting y*d army is racist and has nothing whatsoever to do with the vast majority of their support. They're still doing it despite them knowing it upsets some people just as some England fans were singing swing low despite them knowing thats been called into question. Some people will stop and consider some people will shrug and say its tradition. And lets face some will sing louder as they know for sure that they are upsetting someone.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 14 Dec 2021, 12:16 am

GLASGOW WARRIORS managing director Al Kellock has asked Exeter Chiefs supporters “not to attend the game on Saturday with faux Native American headdresses or chant the ‘Tomahawk Chop’ during the match”.

“We are making this request out of respect for the Native American community around the world, whose views on the use of their imagery and cultural heritage we support, and the Glasgow Warriors supporters who have called for us to act on this matter,” he explained, in an open letter issued at lunchtime today [Monday].

“The club has informed Exeter Chiefs and European Professional Club Rugby of our request and has the full support of Scottish Rugby on taking this position.”

https://www.theoffsideline.com/glasgow-v-exeter-al-kellock-asks-visiting-fans-to-respect-warriors-position-on-native-american-imagery/

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Thu 27 Jan 2022, 1:33 pm

Now to be celtic chiefs.....


https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/60155782


The social justice mob won't be satisfied though, they will move to their next cause....... might I suggest homelessness, or social housing, or provision of drug rehabilitation services? We'll soon see what the mob actually chooses to focus on.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 27 Jan 2022, 1:39 pm

Chiefs branding tweet

It’s basically Jack Nowell in a hat, isn’t it?
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Post by Geordie Thu 27 Jan 2022, 1:54 pm

Poorfour wrote:Chiefs branding tweet

It’s basically Jack Nowell in a hat, isn’t it?

laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 27 Jan 2022, 2:02 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Now to be celtic chiefs.....


https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/60155782


The social justice mob won't be satisfied though, they will move to their next cause....... might I suggest homelessness, or social housing, or provision of drug rehabilitation services? We'll soon see what the mob actually chooses to focus on.

Chin up babes.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 27 Jan 2022, 2:03 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Now to be celtic chiefs.....


https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/60155782


The social justice mob won't be satisfied though, they will move to their next cause....... might I suggest homelessness, or social housing, or provision of drug rehabilitation services? We'll soon see what the mob actually chooses to focus on.

The Native Indian Council over in the US asked them to stop using the imagery so on that basis I'd say it's right for a change.

Quite like the new badge, makes lots of sense and they can keep the name and still have marketing opportunities based on their local history which would be better and probably mean more to the supporters.

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Post by Geordie Thu 27 Jan 2022, 2:06 pm

What did the Dumnoni tribe look like. It look very Mongolian or Turkish?

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Post by Poorfour Thu 27 Jan 2022, 2:15 pm

Poorfour wrote:Chiefs branding tweet

It’s basically Jack Nowell in a hat, isn’t it?

It's just occurred to me: did they pay Jack for his image rights?

And if so, has it been declared to the Salary Cap Manager?

I think we should be told.
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Post by Tramptastic Thu 27 Jan 2022, 2:28 pm

Tramptastic wrote:So 4 things to consider:

1) why didnt they keep the "chiefs" part and rebrand to something celtic? theres certainly the connection down the cornish way so why not? Have a Clan Chief as the mascot! that would have been an easy fix!

Called it. Where's my royalties?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 27 Jan 2022, 3:28 pm

I've seen elsewhere the new logo has been nicknamed "tithead".

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 27 Jan 2022, 6:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:What did the Dumnoni tribe look like. It look very Mongolian or Turkish?

I'm sure they looked like most every-day, run of the mill barbarians.  Probably like the barbarians (our forefathers!) from the TV series Britannia.  Believe it or not, this is the barbarians before they fought the Romans, not afterwards:  
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 28 Jan 2022, 9:23 am

Rumor has it that the Pope is offended by Northampton's "Saints" tag. We may have to re-brand, "Sinners" would be good, it cannot be argued against with our disciplinary record.
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Post by Poorfour Fri 28 Jan 2022, 9:44 am

Since we're on the topic, should we be talking about cultural appropriation from medieval Islamists? Just because they're not around to protest it doesn't mean it's right.
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Post by Tramptastic Fri 28 Jan 2022, 10:01 am

Poorfour wrote:Since we're on the topic, should we be talking about cultural appropriation from medieval Islamists? Just because they're not around to protest it doesn't mean it's right.

This is something that always confuses me is why pick the name saracens in the first place? I get the origin was medieval islamists but did the rugby team Saracens have an islamic cultural foundation or was it a case of "We need an intimidating name and nothing scares me more than the thought of Saladin picking up a rugby ball... hey, what about Saracens?!"?

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 28 Jan 2022, 1:40 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Rumor has it that the Pope is offended by Northampton's "Saints" tag. We may have to re-brand, "Sinners" would be good, it cannot be argued against with our disciplinary record.
that’s a common misconception.  He and I were talking after last weekend’s games and he s offended by Saint’s inconsistency.  Paraphrasing and translated from colloquial Argentine Spanish:   “WTF Grey, they stink on ice!  Nowhere in the Bible do you ever hear about consecrated saints falling off their effing tackles or dropping balls like Northampton. F**k ‘em.”

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