Premiership Round 5

First topic message reminder :

Fri Oct 15, 2021
7:45pm Sale-Harlequins

Sat Oct 16, 2021

3:00pm Worcester-Leicester
3:00pm Newcastle-Bristol
3:00pm Wasps-Exeter Chiefs

Sun Oct 17, 2021

3:00pm London Irish-Gloucester
3:00pm Bath-Saracens

Can't see a thread so here goes. Teams for Friday (BBC so blame them for any mistake):

Sale: Hammersley; Solomona, S James, Tuilagi, McGuigan; Wilkinson, Quirke; Rodd, Langdon, Schonert, Wiese, JL du Preez, Ross (capt), T Curry, D du Preez.

Replacements: Taylor, Harrison, Oosthuizen, JP du Preez, Nield, Warr, Curtis, L James.

Harlequins: Green; Marchant, Northmore, Esterhuizen, Murley; Smith, Care; Marler, Walker, Kerrod, Symons, Lamb, Chisholm, Kenningham, Dombrandt (capt).

Replacements: Riley, Baxter, Collier, Tizard, Lawday, Steele, Jones, Lynagh.

Referee: Tom Foley (RFU).


Looks like the experiment with Solomona at full back is over, he looks an out and out winger and one who burned defensive bridges with Jones. Have to say I was surprised that Lynagh was hooked early last week and now starts on the bench...did I miss something on that?

Were only 7-0 up against a Bristol side missing alot of first teamers

GeordieFalcon wrote:Were only 7-0 up against a Bristol side missing alot of first teamers

That can be a double edged sword. Could be some guys who have been waiting for their chance and are now desperate to make an impression.

Very true Sam.

Hiw often has Hill knocked the ball on??!!

Nadolo is man against boys stuff sometimes when you get him one on ones with opposition wingers. Brilliant off load gets Tigers a try after a weak start to the second half.

7-5 Falcons

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hiw often has Hill knocked the ball on??!!

Exeter have muffed up so many chances in the red zone ...

Nowell is some player though isn't he...oh for his injuries....

If England had him and Manu available all the time, that's a different proposition straight away....

10 - 5 Falcons

Aw Dan Frost...don't get it wrong when tackling Ewers!! You get knocked out....

Falcons win 13-5

Worcester 3 - 48 Tigers

Tigers left a lot of points out there as well.

Worcester were really bad. As in Tigers 18/19 sort of abysmal. Especially in the final 20 when their defence just fell apart. Tigers took advantage with a very handsome win though.

Ford was excellent throughout. Steward a rock. JvP very slick. Nadolo was unplayable at times. Scott and Moroni is a really classy centre partnership.

Burns had a couple of lovely touches after coming on as well. His delayed pass to Scott after looking like he was shaping to kick which made Nadolo's try was lovely. Then his chip and recover try.

The Tigers pack with everyone available has so many carriers now.

So KC....is this compliments to Borthwick rebuilding...or was the rebuilding already in place?

Great win that.

Dallaglio calling fir Simmonds to start at 8 in the Ais....if that's the case then they'll need a unit at 6. Is that a chance for Martin alongside Curry?

Well good weekend for Simmonds to get the Motm

Some of the foundations were being rebuilt pre Borthwick. The academy pathway has improved so much and it's showing with the young players coming through.

The improvements in set-piece and defence since Borthwick came in have been incredible. The fitness with Aled Walters joining form the Boks has gone through the roof. Recruitment is incomparable to the dark years. The attack is starting to show a cutting edge as well.

Sale (H) and Saints (A) are much bigger tests to come. I'm interested to see how our attack goes against a much stronger defence (we played some really poor rugby for most of the Sarries game) and then how our pack goes against Saints (Isiekwe caused real issues single handedly so Lawes and Ribbans would be a big challenge).

Martin was rested today. He was impressive in the first 4 rounds though. Dominant tackles and his carrying has come a long way.

Sale will be a huge game as boy are they physical....

Couldn't make the falcons game today, but the views are rhat it was not a highlights game .

However our efficiency in the 22 cost us a bigger win. That's something we need to work on....taking the points we are creating.

I'm not overly concerned about their physicality. Yes it'll be brutal but we have the squad depth to be able to rotate players round and out a big, mobile and fairly fresh pack of our own. Whether our attack can cope with the Curry led defence will be interesting and whether we can maintain our discipline will be crucial questions.

The concerns I might have are that Cole and Genge have played quote a few minutes as has Liebenburg though we could see Martin come in for him next week and we'd still have a good physical backrow. Now Heyes is back he should be rotating with Cole a lot more.

I'm hoping for a very strong side at Saints because a) we want those bragging rights and b) I've got tickets and it's a boys day out.

If we can get five points across the two games then we'll be in a really good position. That would be 28 points after 7 games. We got 54 points in 22 games last season and finished sixth.

Marco van Staden 42 metres made and 28 tackles on his first start for Tigers. Blimey he had his porridge this morning.

2019/20 season for Tigers
6 wins, 1 draw, 15 loses, 1 TBP, 29 points

2021/22 season after 5 games
5 wins, 0 loses, 3 TBP, 23 points

Remarkable turnaround.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Marco van Staden 42 metres made and 28 tackles on his first start for Tigers. Blimey he had his porridge this morning.

Van Staden was outstanding. He wasn't getting joy at the breakdown defensively (neither were Worcester) but on a different day would've had a few steals as well. He reminds me a lot of Hamish Watson. A brilliant signing to replace the hole Taufua left.

Taufua was a good signing but he was here for the money, don't blame him he'd spent years being exceptional in NZ and not getting a chance with the ABs. The recruitment since then has moved in the Bok guys we've brought in seem happier to buy in to the culture at Tigers and call it home. Maybe it helps that one of their own is vice captain and that Weise has gone from outsider to SA international. Borthers and the recruitment staff do deserve credit for identifying the right characters to come in and creating a good atmosphere for when they arrive.

I'm about to watch the game but what I saw of MVS previously suggested that he'd fit right into the mobile and aggressive pack Borthwick wants. The Hamish Watson comparison is good though I think MVS might be a bit weightier. He looks like a really handy alternative to the excellent Reffell.

I don't think they are here for money any less than Taufua to be honest. It's 90-odd % of the draw for any player when signing overseas club contracts. If Wiese got offered a 25% pay cut right now whilst a Top 14 side offered him a massive increase I'm under no illusion where he'd be plying his trade next season! That was the equation for Taufua.

By trimming the squad size down, then using the academy and shrewd signings from lower leagues to fill out depth we've freed up cash to still pay these guys competitive wages even with the cap reduction. Van Staden will have been in high demand from French clubs as well as the Bulls trying to retain him. He won't be here cheap but if he keeps performing like that then he will be worth every penny.

Bath getting pummelled by Saracens although one of the tries came from a highly dubious penalty. Bath should really be much better than they are with the players they have.

Wow, still the first half and Bath look like merde. Only question is whether Worcs or Bath is merde-ier, so to speak.

Wow Bath have been atrocious today. Potentially worse than Worcester yesterday.

It's not a terrible Bath squad either. The pack has a lot of good players in it. 11-15 has a huge amount of talent as well.

The Bath defence is London Welsh levels here.

Especially annoying as they've nicked LI's best players over the years and done nothing with them ... I really need to get over this

king_carlos wrote:I don't think they are here for money any less than Taufua to be honest. It's 90-odd % of the draw for any player when signing overseas club contracts. If Wiese got offered a 25% pay cut right now whilst a Top 14 side offered him a massive increase I'm under no illusion where he'd be plying his trade next season! That was the equation for Taufua.

By trimming the squad size down, then using the academy and shrewd signings from lower leagues to fill out depth we've freed up cash to still pay these guys competitive wages even with the cap reduction. Van Staden will have been in high demand from French clubs as well as the Bulls trying to retain him. He won't be here cheap but if he keeps performing like that then he will be worth every penny.

Let's face it no one in any job will turn down a massive increase from elsewhere if their employer is having to cut their salary. We'd be off if that's the case and I don't mind if a player goes as well. Taufua I'd welcome back if he came back but I dunno he never seemed to settle here like the SA lads have. Maybe it's the different times we're in under Borthwick.

Re Bath   that's not a weak side and they should be getting mullered the way they are. They look like they've met in the carpark pre game. Farrell is trying to help them out by dropping off tackles though, very sporting of him.

The LI vs Gloucester game is much more entertaining than Bath vs Sarries. LZR intercept puts Gloucester in the lead with 20 minutes left.

That was a dire missed tackle from LZR on Hassell-Collins but he looked like he could barely run when chasing the kick. Not sure he's fully fit out there.

LI 25 - 25 Gloucester

LI once again failing to secure victory.

I thought Ben White was really sharp when he came on but I was concerned that he took a head knock at the very end there then tried to play on. You could see the physio trying to get him to stop play but he ran back in looking pretty unstable on his feet.

Pretty standard for LI this season so far - close but no cigar ...

Sounds like BT covered the wrong game. Bath were dire and Sarries toyed with them. Bath nearly got a TBP to salvage a thoroughly undeserved point but managed to bungle that as well and lose 71-17.

Well , suddenly I dont feel so bad about our loss to Sarries last week.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well , suddenly I dont feel so bad about our loss to Sarries last week.

Less Sarries and more like Bath playing akin to Championship relegation fodder. Sarries are a good team though, Itoje looked immense.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sounds like BT covered the wrong game. Bath were dire and Sarries toyed with them. Bath nearly got a TBP to salvage a thoroughly undeserved point but managed to bungle that as well and lose 71-17.

How unbelievable would it be for a team to not show up, get smoked, and still earn a bonus point? Didn't watch any Rugby this afternoon, but I might take a look this evening. Just to see what a car wreck Bath have become. Were they really this bad?

Yes Bath were really that bad - just as Irish are frustrating. More often than not this season Irish have looked the better side but always seem to find a way to not win, albeit on occasions ably assisted by some poor officiating.

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sounds like BT covered the wrong game. Bath were dire and Sarries toyed with them. Bath nearly got a TBP to salvage a thoroughly undeserved point but managed to bungle that as well and lose 71-17.

How unbelievable would it be for a team to not show up, get smoked, and still earn a bonus point?  Didn't watch any Rugby this afternoon, but I might take a look this evening.  Just to see what a car wreck Bath have become.  Were they really this bad?

Surely you can gauge how bad they were as Tighthead isn't here crying about refs?

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sounds like BT covered the wrong game. Bath were dire and Sarries toyed with them. Bath nearly got a TBP to salvage a thoroughly undeserved point but managed to bungle that as well and lose 71-17.

How unbelievable would it be for a team to not show up, get smoked, and still earn a bonus point?  Didn't watch any Rugby this afternoon, but I might take a look this evening.  Just to see what a car wreck Bath have become.  Were they really this bad?

I've got used to abject defensive performances from average players watching Tigers over the last few years but Bath yesterday was another level. In the main very good players making lots of mistakes in attack, often from promising positions and then falling apart dramatically in defence repeatedly.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sounds like BT covered the wrong game. Bath were dire and Sarries toyed with them. Bath nearly got a TBP to salvage a thoroughly undeserved point but managed to bungle that as well and lose 71-17.

How unbelievable would it be for a team to not show up, get smoked, and still earn a bonus point?  Didn't watch any Rugby this afternoon, but I might take a look this evening.  Just to see what a car wreck Bath have become.  Were they really this bad?

Surely you can gauge how bad they were as Tighthead isn't here crying about refs?

He's not posted since last Tuesday. Possibly now stalking Hooper.

Just looking at the stats for the Bath Saracens game. They are weird. Very little in it, apart from Bath only winning one from four scrums, and losing three lineouts. Territory even, penalty count 13- 14 Baths - Sarries. Tackle stats even. Territory even. Sarries edge possession 55-45 but nothing there that screams 10 try victory.

Bath must just have been hopeless at the times it really mattered.

Interesting thing stats - take a look at the Irish v Glaws Stats
and wonder how Irish didn't win easily ... similar picture in some previous matches too.  Immensely frustrating ...

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/match-report-bath-rugby-17-71-saracens

I was in Bath yesterday, although not for this hammering. It's ridiculous trying to drive through or around Bath on a match day! Sarries must now be rated a top 2 team as opposed to a top 6.

Saracens are a good team, no doubts.  But not THAT good.  I watched part of a replay of the game last evening because I had to see for myself that a team with four England squad players, as well as some previous England selections, could cave like that.  I know it is a difficult and probably controversial thing to say, but I think Bath packed it in - some players appeared to me to make personal 'business decisions' once things started going awry.  At that point I decided to put on Monday Night Football and watch two good teams go at it hammer and tongs.  Like professionals.

This is why an over-reliance on statistics will never tell the full story.  Bath had the edge in territory and possession in the 1st half and shipped 45 points and scored zilch.  Bath did turn the ball over more, but these stats don't point to to a rout of this proportion.

BATH				SARACENS
52% / 35%		Possession 1H/2H		48% / 65%
67% / 28%		Territory 1H/2H		33% / 72%
339		Metres run		483
13		Kicks From Hand		25
134		Passes		175
106		Runs		117
8		Clean Breaks		10
26		Defenders Beaten		26
10		Offload		18
72 / 76 (94%)		Rucks Won		82 / 85 (96%)
4 / 4 (100%)		Mauls Won		6 / 6 (100%)
12		Turnovers Conceded		7
14		Penalties conceded		13

doctor_grey wrote:Saracens are a good team, no doubts.  But not THAT good.  I watched part of a replay of the game last evening because I had to see for myself that a team with four England squad players, as well as some previous England selections, could cave like that.  I know it is a difficult and probably controversial thing to say, but I think Bath packed it in - some players appeared to me to make personal 'business decisions' once things started going awry.  At that point I decided to put on Monday Night Football and watch two good teams go at it hammer and tongs.  Like professionals.

I've watched it now. The starting scrum-half for Bath was poor and quite slow at passing, even making Aled Davies look good... Bath just looked underpowered, Sarries repelled them every time and were putting their bodies on the line in defence. It was quite a good performance from them. Tompkins look decent too, he is definitely a 12 and not 13.

I think one area where stats go wrong is that when one team is on top and score for fun the amount of time they spend on the ball when they do score can be very short. The other team may be able to hold onto the ball but don't do anything with it.

You also get the inevitable ebb and flow, and when you have 60/70 points on the board there may not be so much motivation to push for more.

Faf requiring surgery on his hip injury, out for 5 months. Massive blow for Sale. Exacerbated if Quirke forces his way in the England matchday squad for the AIs and Six Nations.

lostinwales wrote:I think one area where stats go wrong is that when one team is on top and score for fun the amount of time they spend on the ball when they do score can be very short. The other team may be able to hold onto the ball but don't do anything with it.

You also get the inevitable ebb and flow, and when you have 60/70 points on the board there may not be so much motivation to push for more.

good point.
To me, the real odd thing about the Bath stats is they had 67% territory and more than 50% possession in the first half. Yet, were still obliterated. That's not easy to do!