Premiership Round 6

First topic message reminder :

Cant see a thread for this yet so..

Friday 22nd October (1945 kickoff)
Northampton vs Worcs

Saturday 23rd October (all 1500 kickoff)
Exeter Chiefs vs London Irish
Gloucester vs Newcastle Falcons
Harlequins vs Bath
Leicester Tigers vs Sale

Sunday 24th October (1500 kickoff)
Saracens vs Wasps

I'd bet on home wins apart from Gloucester Newcastle. Tigers Sale should also be competitive.

Course there can king. Not my point.

If anything competition should push them both to keep improving and trying to one up the competitors.

Incidentally where do you think Quins lost the game to Sale?

Close fought game didn't think their picks in the backs were right. Northmoor was exceedingly underpar butchering a good couple of chances, just didn't get picking Marchant on the wing. Came up against Quirke whose probably the form scrum half in the prem and played expertly. Still think Harlequins come up short in their locks too, rarely give that platform. On another day they could well have won of course and away from home. Didn't pick out any particular mistakes from Smtih though. Thought he played really well as ever.

Shamelessly nocked from elsewhere re the Tigers game today.

Some stats show Defence won it
Scott 11 tackles 0 missed
Kelly 12 tackles 0 missed

Compare that too
Rensburg 2 tackles 4 missed
Manu 4 tackles 1 missed

In fact the only Tiger to miss more than 1 tackle was Van Staden who made 23 tackles and missed 2.
Van Staden led the tackle count for both teams (Curry and Du Preez combined for 23 tackles) with Wiese second with 20 tackles and 1 miss

Team stats
Tigers 158 tackles 10 missed
Sale 98 tackles 14 missed

No 7&1/2 wrote:Close fought game didn't think their picks in the backs were right. Northmoor was exceedingly underpar butchering a good couple of chances, just didn't get picking Marchant on the wing. Came up against Quirke whose probably the form scrum half in the prem and played expertly. Still think Harlequins come up short in their locks too, rarely give that platform. On another day they could well have won of course and away from home. Didn't pick out any particular mistakes from Smtih though. Thought he played really well as ever.

I think I commented on it at the time but it was the decision making. Sale spent the first 10 minutes of the game inside their own 22. Care shanked two box kicks, one straight to Sale with no distance gain and one to touch with no gain. Smith's first kick having had his pack working their socks off in defence was a crossfield kick straight to Marchant to be bundled into touch. Before the game it was obvious Sale had a beast of a pack and a stronger bench. Got to look after your forwards not keep changing things and bringing back pressure. What I wanted to see from Smith there or would if he was playing for England was for him just to clear his lines, let his forwards get a breather up the pitch not facing another rolling maul in their own 22. From memory Sale looked comfortable in the last 22 and had their youngsters been more reliable from the boot would have put the game to bed.

There's no doubt that Smith is a genius in attack but he's got to think bigger picture. In a game like that protect your forwards, play the percentages a little after you've been under pressure not all game but just think beyond the current set of phases. I'm sure he'll mature into it but he's being hyped up and about to play a couple of tough international tests in a slightly experimental team. The media in this country are not forgiving. Hopefully we blow Australia and the Boks off the park and it doesn't matter. If Benny turns up he'll have him to help steer the ship and make those tough calls.

I'm really hoping Youngs doesn't get too much time with Smith. Want to see Smith get plenty of time on the ball. And we need to move on ASAP and not be tied down.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm really hoping Youngs doesn't get too much time with Smith. Want to see Smith get plenty of time on the ball. And we need to move on ASAP and not be tied down.

Youngs can and does alter how he plays to what suits the team. It's the reason Eddie likes him so much, with him you can play off 9, you can play off 10. You can kick off either, he gives you options. I imagine that England will use him in the second half of games going forward. If we need someone to take control if we're struggling or we want to see the game out he's got the tactical skills to do that. If need a different type of attacking style he can do that. It would certainly be a novel experience for Smith to play with a 9 that's got a tactical kicking game.

I'm hoping Quirke and Randall both get a go Vs Tonga and then one is given the starts with Youngs as the safety blanket in the next two tests. Meanwhile JVP banks some experience Vs Saints and Bath for Tigers.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Heaf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bonus point win.

I couldn't watch it live so am sitting down now to relax and watch it all and soak it all in

Sorry  for the spoilers. It'll be an even more comfortable watch than live at least.

No problem - much better for my blood pressure

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup. Knock on. They have scored again but to me Hassell-Collins just blown a great chance in not backing himself to the corner as well. Irish have still looked better to me though.

Agreed - I think he would have made the corner if he'd pinned his ears back ...

doctor_grey wrote:I think my Superbru is going to take a beating this weekend.  I called Worcester's weekly beating right, but London Irish messing up Exe?  Gloucester beating Newcastle?  Bath actually playing against Quins?  What is this world coming to?  

Gloucester have outperformed most expectations this season. At some point people might come round to the idea that they are not a bad side.

Exiledinborders wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I think my Superbru is going to take a beating this weekend.  I called Worcester's weekly beating right, but London Irish messing up Exe?  Gloucester beating Newcastle?  Bath actually playing against Quins?  What is this world coming to?  

Gloucester have outperformed most expectations this season. At some point people might come round to the idea that they are not a bad side.

That would mean I was...wr...wr...wro...wrong (gawd that was difficult to type).

Exiledinborders wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I think my Superbru is going to take a beating this weekend.  I called Worcester's weekly beating right, but London Irish messing up Exe?  Gloucester beating Newcastle?  Bath actually playing against Quins?  What is this world coming to?  

Gloucester have outperformed most expectations this season. At some point people might come round to the idea that they are not a bad side.

They are starting to get there. Looks like Skivington used pre season well and got a lot drilled into his team. I still think they'll need a bit more reinforcement in the tight five next summer but they are looking much better than last season. Crowds being back will help that.

king_carlos wrote:Youngs had his best game of the season to be fair. His box kicking was enormously improved. The tap and go debacle in the 22 aside he was very good.

Ford was excellent once again.

There can be more than one good player in each position in the Premiership, 7.5. If Ford performs well it doesn't mean Smith gets put in a crate and shipped to Nova Scotia.

Well Youngs was due a good showing as he's been pretty dire so far this season (1 good game in 6 seems to be his hit rate over the last few years).

Have to agree on Ford that he's been superb so far, as he normally is in Tigers colours to be fair. Him and Smith are certainly the two form options in the league at the minute.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Youngs had his best game of the season to be fair. His box kicking was enormously improved. The tap and go debacle in the 22 aside he was very good.

Ford was excellent once again.

There can be more than one good player in each position in the Premiership, 7.5. If Ford performs well it doesn't mean Smith gets put in a crate and shipped to Nova Scotia.

Well Youngs was due a good showing as he's been pretty dire so far this season (1 good game in 6 seems to be his hit rate over the last few years).

Have to agree on Ford that he's been superb so far, as he normally is in Tigers colours to be fair. Him and Smith are certainly the two form options in the league at the minute.

Not really accurate on Youngs. He was rested for one game so has played 5. He was good but made a couple of errors that looked more rusty than anything Vs Exeter. He came off the bench and controlled the game to stop the Glaws fightback to ensure victory there. His only bad game so far was the one Vs Sarries where the conditions put a stop to running rugby and Youngs kicking was consistently too long. Even in that game he did well in the sweeper role defensively so it wasn't that he wasn't in the game he just seemed to over compensate for the wind constantly instead of adapting.

Given what's been going on with his family recently he's done well to keep everything together really. Hopefully the newborn is starting to sleep a bit more and now the details with Tiff are public there might be a bit of a weight off his shoulders, he certainly looked on it yesterday.

Only real shame yesterday was that Quirke wasn't available for Sale as it would have been good to see them go head to head.

Wow. Even worse then as I thought he was under par but that's him playing well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Youngs had his best game of the season to be fair. His box kicking was enormously improved. The tap and go debacle in the 22 aside he was very good.

Ford was excellent once again.

There can be more than one good player in each position in the Premiership, 7.5. If Ford performs well it doesn't mean Smith gets put in a crate and shipped to Nova Scotia.

Well Youngs was due a good showing as he's been pretty dire so far this season (1 good game in 6 seems to be his hit rate over the last few years).

Have to agree on Ford that he's been superb so far, as he normally is in Tigers colours to be fair. Him and Smith are certainly the two form options in the league at the minute.

Not really accurate on Youngs. He was rested for one game so has played 5. He was good but made a couple of errors that looked more rusty than anything Vs Exeter. He came off the bench and controlled the game to stop the Glaws fightback to ensure victory there. His only bad game so far was the one Vs Sarries where the conditions put a stop to running rugby and Youngs kicking was consistently too long. Even in that game he did well in the sweeper role defensively so it wasn't that he wasn't in the game he just seemed to over compensate for the wind constantly instead of adapting.

Given what's been going on with his family recently he's done well to keep everything together really. Hopefully the newborn is starting to sleep a bit more and now the details with Tiff are public there might be a bit of a weight off his shoulders, he certainly looked on it yesterday.

Only real shame yesterday was that Quirke wasn't available for Sale as it would have been good to see them go head to head.

I don't follow his personal life, but on the field he has been quite poor when I've caught him. He's a player who's club form has been ignored during EJ's tenure though so it doesn't really matter how bad he plays for Tigers I guess.

I have just finished watching the Saints-Warriors game. I don't really know what to make of it, were Saints that good, (probably not) were Warriors that bad, probably. It makes judging individual performance very hard. Saints defence was pretty good, some great tackling by Lawes and Ludlam in particular, Mitchell tackled VDM at least four times in the game. It proves the old adage, "they can't run without their legs", all classic take his legs out from under him and he will go nowhere tackles.

If England do not cap Dingwall very quickly, Scotland will, he has just about everything and working with Hutchinson they can perform magic.

Skosan had the perfect debut, hat trick, one of which was a masterclass in how to get the ball down when being smashed into touch at the corner flag.

Other good news is that Paul Hill looks like he is getting back to the form that won him a few England caps, we do not have that many good tight heads.

The bad news, after knocking on a year out with concussion and then other injury problems, Piers Francis came on and after 25 minutes went off and failed the HIA. Nothing seems to go right for him.

I agree it's hard to tell how Saints actually performed given how poor Worcester played.  Even down to the weird symmetry of scoring 33 points in each half, still seemed like a training run.  Worcester still have quality players and holding them essentially try-less is an accomplishment for any team at this level.  Hopefully Worcester can figure themselves out as an organisation.  

I like Hutchinson, but he made that one bad error early on when he took too long to decide whether to kick or pass and the kick was blocked for Worcester's only try.  Still wondering about the 6-2 subs split, though, and Saints finished with only 14 men.  Even in a big win, some of Boyd's decisions.....  

Other observations include Skosan who has the look of an effective finisher, Freeman, who is turning into a heck of a player, the pack in general played solid, fundamental Rugby, the team played a somewhat less frantic style which is an improvement. Dingwall is very quietly improving, as you say, and is now at, or close to, ready for a go at international level (can't see Jones picking him however, so north he goes).  

The bad news, also as you said, is whether Piers Francis is seriously hurt or maybe at the end of his career.    

Was nice to see the amount of time Biggar took with the young Worcester fly half after the match.  Really a class act.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Youngs had his best game of the season to be fair. His box kicking was enormously improved. The tap and go debacle in the 22 aside he was very good.

Ford was excellent once again.

There can be more than one good player in each position in the Premiership, 7.5. If Ford performs well it doesn't mean Smith gets put in a crate and shipped to Nova Scotia.

Well Youngs was due a good showing as he's been pretty dire so far this season (1 good game in 6 seems to be his hit rate over the last few years).

Have to agree on Ford that he's been superb so far, as he normally is in Tigers colours to be fair. Him and Smith are certainly the two form options in the league at the minute.

Not really accurate on Youngs. He was rested for one game so has played 5. He was good but made a couple of errors that looked more rusty than anything Vs Exeter. He came off the bench and controlled the game to stop the Glaws fightback to ensure victory there. His only bad game so far was the one Vs Sarries where the conditions put a stop to running rugby and Youngs kicking was consistently too long. Even in that game he did well in the sweeper role defensively so it wasn't that he wasn't in the game he just seemed to over compensate for the wind constantly instead of adapting.

Given what's been going on with his family recently he's done well to keep everything together really. Hopefully the newborn is starting to sleep a bit more and now the details with Tiff are public there might be a bit of a weight off his shoulders, he certainly looked on it yesterday.

Only real shame yesterday was that Quirke wasn't available for Sale as it would have been good to see them go head to head.

I don't follow his personal life, but on the field he has been quite poor when I've caught him. He's a player who's club form has been ignored during EJ's tenure though so it doesn't really matter how bad he plays for Tigers I guess.  

Hah that is very true. He had some absolute shockers in recent years and still made the England squad. He did tend to play better for England than Tigers though at the time that was setting the bar pretty low. Re his personal life, baby number 3 arrived in late summer hence why he pulled out of the Lions Tour and his sister in law has had a long running battle with cancer (why he pulled out of the NZ Lions Tour previously may have also played a part this time) and she has taken a down turn recently hence his brother Tom stepping away from rugby for an undefined period to look after her.

No 7&1/2 his kicking kept the opposition pinned back and struggling to make much in the way of meaningful attacks and he created the game winning try. Admittedly it wasn't a vintage performance but in the case of what was required it was spot on, maybe had he not had the misfortune to half step through a gap and offload to the support player only too late to realise the support player was Cole and see the move die we might have had a try earlier, just needed to be a Weise or similar to steam onto it. Coley is rolling back the years with his workrate this season but he was never quick enough to break onto that.

Quins at times made hard work of their win over a very spirited Bath but at the centre of it were Care and Smith, especially when the team went behind those two went up a gear and dragged the rest with them. It can only be a good thing for England for Smith to have to learn to work out how to win behind a pack that isn't dominant and when you're down on the board.

Obviously also really helpful were the two powerful SA players in Green and Andre, without players like them in the England shirts guys like Smith will possibly struggle for options as well as who's going to knock back the defence or run at weak shoulders?

You can't really compare as the teams play styles and forward packs are very different though tbh.

Great to have a game in hand and be second in the table too.

Agree Yappy it is my concern with Smith and England. I'm very much hoping he's not served up with the kind awful unbalanced backline Ford got lumbered with. He'll go from a plethora of running options to pick from to Farrell and Slade squabbling over who runs the arc to link to the wingers and nothing to hold the defence that is blocking the 10 running like a wall.

If you're going to pick such an excellent attacking 10 you've got to give him some options. Quins have recruited very well in order to ensure that they have a well rounded backline. I know the Quins faithful were upset when Brown got cut loose but Green is probably a better fit for what they need.

I only saw bits of the game but it looked like Bath scored their points whilst Marler was in the bin for the daft tackle on de Glanville.

It has probably helped that for a large part of Marcus apprenticeship as a pro player that he has learnt how to play 10 behind a pretty abysmal Quins pack at times (John Kingston/Gustard years).

Ford, Farrell and even Simmonds at Chiefs have all from early stages in their career been playing behind dominant packs (generally).

Yes, Quins have been getting more wins recently and that's largely when their pack decides to get all gnarly and give Marcus/DC a decent platform, but those other wins that Quins have notched up because of a bit of 'half back magic' have been because these guys are more comfortable playing with a pack on the back foot.

Bit like Wilkinson playing for Falcons

Jacob Umaga is another one cutting his teeth with a pack that isnt generally dominant, although he does usually have Gopperth there to assist at 12.

Anyway, the point I am making Sam is that Marcus may not struggle as much as people think if England dont get the platform against stronger opposition like SA, or even Oz who seem to have a much improved set piece play than previous years.

Smith is less reliant on having his centres to distribute the ball than most flyhalves - Quins often run a pattern where one of the centres trucks it up and Smith loops round to free up the outside backs. But he's also got the variety to bypass the centres if they're in the way.

The main thing that the Quins gameplan relies on is fast ball. Where the opposition are faster to the breakdown (as with the Sale game) or allowed to encroach offside - as Bath did for a fair amount of Saturday's game - it's much harder for Smith to play his natural game. I guess the good news is that England have the pack and back row options to be able to secure fast ball - and when they've been on song have been one of the better teams at it over the past 2 years.

That said, I'd rather not have Farrell and Slade both in the backline. I don't have the problem with Farrell that lots of other people seem to, and I'm prepared to see if they can gel together. But I'd prefer to have one of the centres offer a different style of play. And ideally I'd like to see a Tuilagi / Marchant pairing tried at some point. (Though I suppose that for that to happen Farrell would either have to be off the pitch or move to fullback...)

propdavid_london wrote:Anyway, the point I am making Sam is that Marcus may not struggle as much as people think if England dont get the platform against stronger opposition like SA, or even Oz who seem to have a much improved set piece play than previous years.

Ford is more than used and extremely good at playing behind a poor pack. He had loads of practice when he kept an awful Tigers team up the other year.

No my concern with Smith is that the Quins attack in which he is so brilliant is all based around giving him options and him selecting the right ones close to the gain line. Issue was that in the Autumn and the 6N Farrell and Slade offered Ford nothing so when Ford tried to involve the wingers they had nowhere to go and got swallowed up by the covering defence. I don't want to see young talent wasted because of awful selection. On the upside Smith should at least have Steward galloping up from fullback, he's good at coming into the line and running straight (Daly loves an arc).

Exiledinborders wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I think my Superbru is going to take a beating this weekend.  I called Worcester's weekly beating right, but London Irish messing up Exe?  Gloucester beating Newcastle?  Bath actually playing against Quins?  What is this world coming to?  

Gloucester have outperformed most expectations this season. At some point people might come round to the idea that they are not a bad side.

By all accounts our discipline was again the big issue....we need to sort that out urgently.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I think my Superbru is going to take a beating this weekend.  I called Worcester's weekly beating right, but London Irish messing up Exe?  Gloucester beating Newcastle?  Bath actually playing against Quins?  What is this world coming to?  

Gloucester have outperformed most expectations this season. At some point people might come round to the idea that they are not a bad side.

By all accounts our discipline was again the big issue....we need to sort that out urgently.

No, you can certainly take your time with it....

Like for another 36 hours, not too much to ask for really.  

Well they do have a bye week friendly to navigate.