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The best Heavyweight era since... Holy...Bowe..Lewis..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 25 Oct 2021, 3:13 pm

Fury v Usyk
Joshua v Usyk 2
Usyk v Wilder
Fury v Whyte
Joshua v Wilder.
Wilder v Whyte
Joshua v Joyce
Usyk v Joyce
Whyte v Joyce
Joshua v Whyte 2
Wilder v Joyce...
Chisora v Joyce..
Wilder v Chisora..

All fights I would pay to watch...It's been a long time since there were so many interesting possible matchups..Heavies are taking over Boxing again..and it's good.

Like the 90s again..

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Post by No name Bertie Mon 25 Oct 2021, 6:47 pm

Ruiz vs Wilder
Ruiz vs Whyte
Ruiz vs Usyk

I think Fury vs Ruiz would be an easy fight for Fury and would not make for good viewing but who knows.
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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 25 Oct 2021, 6:53 pm

Ruiz looks done to me, he pulled off a massive shock against AJ but doesn't look like he's got any drive or desire to train properly.

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Post by 88Chris05 Mon 25 Oct 2021, 8:56 pm

Well we've at least had some genuine exciting Heavyweight title fights in the past few years, ones you wouldn't mind revisiting, which you basically couldn't say for more than a decade during the Klitschko Bros. era.

I also think that, while it spoilt the British party and took a bit more shine off any potential Joshua-Fury showdown, Usyk's win last month was a great thing for the sport overall and a landmark of real significance in recent Heavyweight history.

That said, just as they cost us back in the nineties, boxing politics along with some awful life choices by certain protagonists have deprived us of some potentially great fights, or at best mean we'll get them a bit later than would be ideal. Hopefully that can be remedied in the next couple of years.

Also, while you could maybe put the 'Big Four' at the top of the division now / very recently (Fury, Joshua, Wilder and Usyk) in the same rough ballpark as Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and let's say the faded but still dangerous Tyson of that nineties period, I'd say there was a lot more depth underneath the big guns back then (so the main contenders or second-rate belt holders) than there is now. I'm not saying they all win every time by any means, but overall I'd say Ruddock, Morrison, Mercer, Golota, Tua, Ibeabuchi etc. are on a higher level than Martin, Wallin, Chisora, Brezeale, Stiverne, Ruiz, Whyte and so on. In some cases I'd take that secondary nineties crop to absolutely punch holes in some of the rated contenders and challengers of recent years.

But overall I think the division is in much better shape than it was ten or fifteen years back, when it really was in dire straits. Whether or not it can ever quite recapture its stranglehold on the sport and its former cachet is another matter as I do think the sport has, in some ways, started to outgrow its reliance on the Heavyweight division since the turn of the century - possibly because it's had to in the face of how awful the division has been at times and the lack of real star names its produced since then.
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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 25 Oct 2021, 9:27 pm

Tua against most of the guys around today would be a massacre, I'd struggle to see Wilder or AJ lasting more than six rounds. He'd be undeterred by the power of either and neither have the ability to box at range and to keep him off.

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Post by kingraf Mon 25 Oct 2021, 11:46 pm

Tua was 30 when he Lewis retired. If he was this monster, then somehow, someway he has to win a piece of the heavyweight title at a time when anyone with a pulse and weight that starts with "2" was winning a piece of belt.

His best win is either Rahman or Maskaev. The past is a lovely place, but the tints on this site are less rose and more outright blood-red.

I'd say the modern age is a pretty fun time. The only issue AJ is the youngest fighter you listed, and he's turning 33 next year. Usyk and Joyce aside, everyone else has taken some serious damage at varying points. Whyte got knocked into next week less than a year ago. AJ has been dropped half a dozen times. Fury too. Wilder just took two career-shortening beatings in back-to-back years. Joyce is not particularly shop worn, but he is 36, and I'm not sure he has anything more than one or two shots at the title in him.

It's a really good Heavyweight class for sure, but I'm not sure it's going to last much longer.
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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 26 Oct 2021, 1:33 am

Raf, Soul - I'm basically in the middle of your two positions when it comes to Tua.

I don't necessarily think him never holding a world title is all that big a stick to beat him with in this context. Sometimes it's a question of timing and getting the right / wrong opponents at the right / wrong time. There was a period in 2001 for instance when Tua had no world titles, but had stopped both of the guys who held the WBC, WBA and IBF belts between them at the time in Rahman and Ruiz (albeit the Rahman one was a bit suspect). Likewise, someone like Chisora is definitely a better fighter than Charles Martin, but it's Martin who can look back on his career and call himself a world title holder.

But at the same time I can't agree with Soul that Wilder and Joshua especially are almost certs to fall within six rounds - that might be over-egging the Tua pudding. Lewis looked half-arsed at times and still contained Tua without too many problems, and a much smaller guy with no power in Byrd did a nice little number on him not long after as well.

Both guys showed the way to beat Tua - stop him getting set, keep him outside, use speed if you can't, take away that left hook and take advantage of his slow feet. Tua could get discouraged in those circumstances. Obviously you'd have to give Tua a puncher's chance, but if Joshua utilised the same game plan as the Ruiz rematch I think he'd outpoint Tua pretty easily.

I think Tua's a better class of contender or second-tier Heavyweight than most of those around today, but I'd still see him falling short against the best in the division.
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Post by kingraf Tue 26 Oct 2021, 2:32 am

I don't wanna denigrate Tua, but you listed your A and B-grade fighters of the 90s, and Tua lost to the only ones he faced. He only fought once for the heavyweight title, in a fight where you could make an argument Lewis beat him 12-0, and then with his peak, or at the very least post-peak coinciding with a period where I could have held the heavyweight champion if my agent was good enough, he doesn't even get to a title fight.

I take your point re: timing, sometimes you're better lucky, of course. If you take Dillian Whyte back to 1994, with an omnipotent promoter, and I'd say there's an at least 50% chance gets past Moorer and Bruno or McCall and becomes Undisputed.

But Martin had a maybe 3 month window where he could realistically have won a belt. Tua had at least half a decade to figure something out. But he was too busy finding Jimmy the Gimmicks and Bob the Builders to left hook into the phantom zone.
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 26 Oct 2021, 8:05 am

I don't think Tua not winning a title means a great deal, he was simply better than most champions since Lewis. The fact he only got one title shot sums it up really, unless he was a mandatory challenger nobody wanted to go near him and for good reason nor does Lewis shutting him out mean a lot when you're talking about Wilder or AJ.

Lewis kept things at distance with his jab something none of the current bunch are capable of doing, while Byrd was very quick on his feet for a heavyweight so was able to dance all night and frustrate Tua. It's easy to get swept up in the present but the actual ability isn't there, hell Tyson Fury is the man at the moment and the guy can barely throw a legal jab. It's too soon to really comment on Usyk, I wasn't that impressed with him against AJ who produced one of the worst title defence performances you will ever see, it's easy to look the part when your opponent will not throw a punch. Tua is by no means a monster but he's more than good enough to beat most of the current bunch, you need a strong defence for 12 rounds to beat him, are Wilder and AJ really going to avoid that left hook for 12 rounds?

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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 26 Oct 2021, 11:45 am

I'm not sure if Tua was particularly avoided by the champions or leading guys, Soul. He'd have got another title shot (and a much more winnable one) if he'd have beaten Byrd. I think he just lost a bit of an edge and some of his discipline after those defeats in 2000 / 2001, especially the Lewis one. His performance got quite a panning from fans and the press alike for being so laboured and unambitious after all the hype beforehand. Also the old familiar tale of managerial disputes, financial issues and all that jazz.

He'll land shots on Wilder and Joshua at some point, but it's whether or not he can land clean and full-blooded ones. With their height and reach, and even basic understanding of some fundamentals (okay, very basic in Wilder's case), I'd say both Wilder and Joshua (especially) would need to be at least partly complicit in allowing that to happen. Tua was no master at cutting the distance or being evasive on his way in. Against a tall guy like Lewis, the few hooks upstairs he did land were usually losing momentum and speed by the time they landed because he had to punch upwards, and both Lewis and Byrd were able to catch or at least move with Tua's shots because he telegraphed them.

He could definitely level Wilder if it's his day, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if that one was a repeat of Wilder-Stiverne either. And I think Joshua would need to have a real off-night to lose to Tua. For me if Joshua just took a safety-first approach like he did in the Ruiz rematch Tua would have very little hope there.

Like I said, I see Tua as a dangerous contender, better than a lot in the top ten today, but I could never see him as a divisional top man barring a result which was very much the shock exception rather than the rule. He was one-dimensional and while that dimension alone could overwhelm some of the better guys out there, I don't think it would cut the mustard against the guys in the top class.
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Post by kingraf Tue 26 Oct 2021, 2:54 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:

It's too soon to really comment on Usyk, I wasn't that impressed with him against AJ who produced one of the worst title defence performances you will ever see

You cannot honestly believe this?

Martin vs Joshua?
McCall vs Lewis 2?
Spinks vs Tyson?
Lewis vs McCall 1??
Lewis vs Rahman?
Haye vs Klitschko?
Ibragimov vs Klitschko?
Ali vs Holmes?
Frazier vs Foreman?

These are just off the top of my head at Heavyweight. There have been A LOT, A LOT more feeble title defences than AJ's vs Usyk. Hell, you talk about not wanting to throw, Klitschko vs Fury? Wilder got battered from pillar to post in the second Fury fight as the champ too.
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 26 Oct 2021, 3:00 pm

kingraf wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:

It's too soon to really comment on Usyk, I wasn't that impressed with him against AJ who produced one of the worst title defence performances you will ever see

You cannot honestly believe this?

Martin vs Joshua?
McCall vs Lewis 2?
Spinks vs Tyson?
Lewis vs McCall 1??
Lewis vs Rahman?
Haye vs Klitschko?
Ibragimov vs Klitschko?
Ali vs Holmes?
Frazier vs Foreman?

These are just off the top of my head at Heavyweight. There have been A LOT, A LOT more feeble title defences than AJ's vs Usyk. Hell, you talk about not wanting to throw, Klitschko vs Fury? Wilder got battered from pillar to post in the second Fury fight as the champ too.

I'm not talking about one guy being outclassed or blasted away, i'm talking about a title defence where the champion barely threw a punch. Martin, Spinks and Frazier were just outgunned.

Ali wasn't the champion against Holmes either, he was the challenger.

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Post by kingraf Tue 26 Oct 2021, 3:05 pm

How is being blasted to smithereens a better challenge?
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 26 Oct 2021, 3:10 pm

Where did I say that?

I referred specifically to AJ's all round performance which was turgid, if he'd given it a go and got blasted away then at least he had a go. Instead he tried to keep the distance and did nothing aside from flick out a jab, he was the bigger more powerful man and he did not throw the right hand. Frazier going up against Foreman had few advantages, possibly speed but he was smaller, older, outgunned and physically dominated, in that situation there wasn't a great deal he could do.

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 27 Oct 2021, 12:52 pm

While we're on the subject and comparing the two eras, though, always worth reiterating - what a trilogy Bowe-Holyfield was. As great and enjoyable as the Fury-Wilder series has been in its own right, it's not even in the same league.

Genuinely feel that the Bowe-Holyfield trilogy is verging on being the equal of Ali-Frazier in many ways, and maybe even superior if you take into consideration that the middle Ali-Frazier fight was a bit of a damp squib compared to their other two fights. No such letting up in Bowe-Holyfield where all three fights were superb.

I've always thought that Bowe deserved at least a draw in their middle fight, yet at the same time you could argue that it was Holyfield's greatest performance and achievement. Having lost the first fight and getting off to a rocky start in the second, he was magnificent from round five onwards. Even though I tend to score it even or to Bowe by 1-2 rounds, I guess it was too close to make any complaint of a robbery and Holyfield's performance was so great in the face of adversity and a bigger man who'd beaten him already I can't begrudge him getting the nod. Surprises me to this day that Bowe or Newman never really kicked up any fuss about the verdict, credit to them for that I guess.

Had Bowe got the verdict (which nobody would have batted an eye at) then it's interesting to wonder what might have unfolded. He complained after losing the WBA and IBF belts to Holyfield that he was being blacklisted by the (then) major organisations who wanted to keep him out of the picture for their titles, which is why he had to go down the WBO route.

At the time the WBO was so lightly regarded in the USA (and particularly in the Heavyweight division) that HBO refused to acknowledge it as a legitimate world title, and Holyfield essentially requested before their third fight that Bowe relinquished the belt because he was worried that taking part in a WBO world title fight would harm his chances of getting a look in with the other bodies - which Bowe was happy to do. Similar to how Moorer had relinquished the title a couple of years earlier because it was, in his own words, 'retarding his career'.

Bowe has said that it was that lockout by the three bigger sanctioning bodies which started his disillusionment with the sport and his lack of dedication to it. I guess you can make up your own mind on whether you buy that excuse or not - increased weight was already becoming a bit of an issue by the time of his second fight against Holyfield, albeit he still looked great in that fight and the difference between that version of Bowe and the one who needed an implosion from his opponent to scrape past Golota just three years later was alarming.

But if Bowe had got the nod against Evander in that fight, I don't see Moorer beating him in 1994 and the road to regaining undisputed recognition, or at least a huge showdown with a returning Tyson, would have been wide open for him and surely would have given him all the motivation he needed.

Bowe will always remain one of the great 'What Ifs' of the sport, sadly.
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Post by rapidringsroad Wed 27 Oct 2021, 10:25 pm

One of Tua's best fights was one that he lost and that was against Ibeabuchi. That was some scrap with an amazing number of shots thrown and landed by both men. He did get one or two lucky decisions, hitting Ruiz after the bell and Ruiz not recovering in the break and was easy pickings when play resumed. He should have been allowed time to recover. That said I always thought Tua could be beaten by a boxer as Byrd and Lewis proved.

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Post by No name Bertie Thu 28 Oct 2021, 1:55 am

Reach difference 14 inches:
Lennox Lewis (84") vs David Tua (70"): 12R UD
Mike Tyson (71") vs Carl Williams (85"): 1R KO
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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 28 Oct 2021, 8:04 am

No name Bertie wrote:Reach difference 14 inches:
Lennox Lewis (84") vs David Tua (70"): 12R UD
Mike Tyson (71") vs Carl Williams (85"): 1R KO

.....and?

David Tua (70") vs David Izon (83") 12R KO

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Post by Derek Smalls Tue 02 Nov 2021, 1:51 am

88Chris05 wrote:While we're on the subject and comparing the two eras, though, always worth reiterating - what a trilogy Bowe-Holyfield was. As great and enjoyable as the Fury-Wilder series has been in its own right, it's not even in the same league.

Genuinely feel that the Bowe-Holyfield trilogy is verging on being the equal of Ali-Frazier in many ways, and maybe even superior if you take into consideration that the middle Ali-Frazier fight was a bit of a damp squib compared to their other two fights. No such letting up in Bowe-Holyfield where all three fights were superb.

I've always thought that Bowe deserved at least a draw in their middle fight, yet at the same time you could argue that it was Holyfield's greatest performance and achievement. Having lost the first fight and getting off to a rocky start in the second, he was magnificent from round five onwards. Even though I tend to score it even or to Bowe by 1-2 rounds, I guess it was too close to make any complaint of a robbery and Holyfield's performance was so great in the face of adversity and a bigger man who'd beaten him already I can't begrudge him getting the nod. Surprises me to this day that Bowe or Newman never really kicked up any fuss about the verdict, credit to them for that I guess.

Had Bowe got the verdict (which nobody would have batted an eye at) then it's interesting to wonder what might have unfolded. He complained after losing the WBA and IBF belts to Holyfield that he was being blacklisted by the (then) major organisations who wanted to keep him out of the picture for their titles, which is why he had to go down the WBO route.

At the time the WBO was so lightly regarded in the USA (and particularly in the Heavyweight division) that HBO refused to acknowledge it as a legitimate world title, and Holyfield essentially requested before their third fight that Bowe relinquished the belt because he was worried that taking part in a WBO world title fight would harm his chances of getting a look in with the other bodies - which Bowe was happy to do. Similar to how Moorer had relinquished the title a couple of years earlier because it was, in his own words, 'retarding his career'.

Bowe has said that it was that lockout by the three bigger sanctioning bodies which started his disillusionment with the sport and his lack of dedication to it. I guess you can make up your own mind on whether you buy that excuse or not - increased weight was already becoming a bit of an issue by the time of his second fight against Holyfield, albeit he still looked great in that fight and the difference between that version of Bowe and the one who needed an implosion from his opponent to scrape past Golota just three years later was alarming.

But if Bowe had got the nod against Evander in that fight, I don't see Moorer beating him in 1994 and the road to regaining undisputed recognition, or at least a huge showdown with a returning Tyson, would have been wide open for him and surely would have given him all the motivation he needed.

Bowe will always remain one of the great 'What Ifs' of the sport, sadly.

Re the second fight, by such slim margins is history made.The parachuting guy of course stopped Bowe's momentum and to my eyes Holy looked like he was slipping away from the fight.

Also, Holy made an excuse for his brutal loss in 3.He said that he was ill ,or some such. It does seem very odd to see him go down as if he had been shot, and I have always wondered if he really was out of sorts.Sadly nowadays we can recall Holy taking a beating in the last decade (and more) of his career, but this kayo was really something.

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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 02 Nov 2021, 11:34 am

Yeah, Holyfield was allegedly suffering with Hepatitis A at the time of the third Bowe fight, Derek. And he did look gassed much earlier than usual in that one to be fair, considering his usually excellent stamina and durability. Then again, maybe it was simply down to how gruelling a fight it was. He looked tired by round five, but almost turned it around in the sixth when he dropped Bowe with that left hook and had him in a spot of bother with his follow up attack. That was probably his chance gone and though he was rallying well and forcing Bowe back in the eighth before he got hit with that shot he didn't see in close, I think it was only going one way from that point.

Holyfield's health was quite the story at the time and coincided with a couple of uncharacteristically limp performances, particularly the first Moorer fight the year previously where again he'd looked unusually tired and flat. That was the fight after which he was diagnosed with his heart condition, which he later flittered between saying was a misdiagnosis and / or was cured by a faith healer...And obviously there are a couple of other suggestions which we're all familiar with, but will leave for now.

Re: the 'Fan Man' incident in the second fight, and how it might have impacted the flow of it. It's true that Bowe had started that seventh round very well, but they were only a minute into it when the fight was paused and Holyfield had clearly won rounds five and six beforehand. The idea that Fan Man cost Bowe the fight and saved Holyfield's skin gets quite a bit of traction - I've probably been a believer in it to some extent before - but I think basing it on a single minute of action is a bit too speculative.
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Post by Derek Smalls Tue 02 Nov 2021, 11:50 pm

Holyfield kept Jesus with him on the way to ring, and the devil in him was called "Evan Fields", who ordered high quality juice and not from the local shop.
I'm happy to be corrected regarding the trajectory of the third fight.
Speaking of trajectory-poor old 'fan man' took a good few blows from Bowe's entourage and died long ago. Don't think he sold his story for a six figure sum as you would expect to happen immediately these days.Not even a book.For a 70s guy like myself it kind of reminded me of Evil Kenievel or a scene from the Six Million Dollar Man

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 03 Nov 2021, 6:49 pm

A Heavyweight taking drugs now there is a shock...

Certainly most Bodybuilders from the golden era would have admired AJ's old physique...But he may have eaten his greens and had great genetics..in fairness.

Having strong faith in the Lord is no doubt a huge advantage for a fighter...If you think we go to a better place after this then risking life and limb must be easier..

I see Hearn is desperately trying to make a near 50/50 case for Fury v Whyte....Hard to take seriously really with Whyte's struggles with Chisora and his shutout off a mechanical AJ..

Too slow.. Too static..Too obvious...Lots of heart though.

Will pay for it...Whyte does deserve a shot and they are two interesting characters.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 03 Nov 2021, 7:28 pm

Always a chance with Whyte's left hook though. Think it'll be a shut-out for Fury but Whyte's hook is a good leveller and Fury's got careless before: Wilder (4 times), Cunningham, Pajkic - they all found his chin, and whilst you could make an argument for it happening a couple of times, 6 proves Fury doesn't have the sturdiest of whiskers. Whyte certainly has a puncher' chance but not much else.

The build up and press conferences should be fun though.


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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 04 Nov 2021, 8:04 am

I reckon Whyte can win, he's got a far stronger chin than Wilder so can at least attempt to walk him down, has a serviceable jab, can work to the body and can throw both rights and lefts, in short he's technically a lot better than Wilder. If someone as sloppy as Deontay can get to Fury four times across three fights then Whyte can.

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Post by Derek Smalls Thu 04 Nov 2021, 3:03 pm

Once again, nobody is talking about Joyce...even though he is named on the start of the thread...
White is just not good enough.Like many others, I have tried to convince myself that he is 'up there', but I just can't see a way for him to beat a decent champ such as Fury.He's been bombed out twice now and the only way Fury loses to him is by not worrying in the slightest and taking his eye off the ball-which he does have the propensity to do, but with the unification ever there in the distance,you would think that he reigns in his arrogant tendencies.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 04 Nov 2021, 6:27 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I reckon Whyte can win, he's got a far stronger chin than Wilder so can at least attempt to walk him down, has a serviceable jab, can work to the body and can throw both rights and lefts, in short he's technically a lot better than Wilder. If someone as sloppy as Deontay can get to Fury four times across three fights then Whyte can.

Wlad was technically better than Whyte.. Wilder punches harder than Whyte and Fury still got up..

Can't see what Whyte offers that Wlad...Chisora and Wilder didn't have...between them..

Fury had three bad rounds out of 31 against Wilder....Getting careless against Whyte won't be as dangerous..

But we see what we see.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 05 Nov 2021, 3:39 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:I reckon Whyte can win, he's got a far stronger chin than Wilder so can at least attempt to walk him down, has a serviceable jab, can work to the body and can throw both rights and lefts, in short he's technically a lot better than Wilder. If someone as sloppy as Deontay can get to Fury four times across three fights then Whyte can.

Wlad was technically better than Whyte.. Wilder punches harder than Whyte and Fury still got up..

Can't see what Whyte offers that Wlad...Chisora and Wilder didn't have...between them..

Fury had three bad rounds out of 31 against Wilder....Getting careless against Whyte won't be as dangerous..

But we see what we see.

Whyte will land with more regularity than Wilder and will have a go unlike a gun shy Wlad. I'm not saying he will win but he definitely can, Fury is getting hyped to a rather silly level nowadays.

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Post by superflyweight Fri 05 Nov 2021, 3:48 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:I reckon Whyte can win, he's got a far stronger chin than Wilder so can at least attempt to walk him down, has a serviceable jab, can work to the body and can throw both rights and lefts, in short he's technically a lot better than Wilder. If someone as sloppy as Deontay can get to Fury four times across three fights then Whyte can.

Wlad was technically better than Whyte.. Wilder punches harder than Whyte and Fury still got up..

Can't see what Whyte offers that Wlad...Chisora and Wilder didn't have...between them..

Fury had three bad rounds out of 31 against Wilder....Getting careless against Whyte won't be as dangerous..

But we see what we see.

Whyte will land with more regularity than Wilder and will have a go unlike a gun shy Wlad. I'm not saying he will win but he definitely can, Fury is getting hyped to a rather silly level nowadays.

I think it's increasingly forgotten how bad Wlad was in that fight. He threw about a dozen meaningful punches . Fury's movement was decent, but he barely threw any punches himself and it was hardly a sparkling performance. He did enough to win against an opponent who seemed to have been kidded into thinking he was fighting a wrecking machine.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 05 Nov 2021, 4:00 pm

I'm probably overly harsh on Fury but ultimately the guy is a scumbag and too many people are too willing to forgive and forget the despicable comments he's made in the past. It was the worst i've ever seen Wlad perform and it was telling how willing he was to engage with AJ, almost as if he was embarrassed by his own performance and felt the need to redeem his reputation. Yes Fury played a part in that but he himself barely threw a punch, landed nothing of significance and won rounds feinting.

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Post by Derek Smalls Sat 06 Nov 2021, 4:31 pm

One thing- this thread-Lovely stuff.I think this might be once again approaching 'prime' boxing chat on this site, or to use another well worn phrase, a 'good era'. I hope that the oldies who pop up now and then continue contributing.

Secondly,  I do see your point Soul that Fury  did behave in the way you asserted and does seem to have been basically given a pass.
Not being a religious chap myself I find his views (and religion itself) laughable,  however, we can't say that it has nothing to do with Christianity that he bleats on about homosexuality and whatever else effluence poured from his ignorant mind, its the price we pay for freedom of speech surely, and a rare reference to the fact that we were once a monotheistic country ,where his brain farts were a  majority view.
Thank goodness we have all  risen above, (no pun intended) by and large ,and his is now a minority view.
On the subject of his scrap with Wlad, yes it was pretty pants but the main thing is ,he got the Win, when so many others failed.
I won't be missing him when he retires if I don't have to hear him describe going on a year long bender as "having mental health ".

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 25 Nov 2021, 6:22 pm

Hearn moaning about Arum's 80/20 Fury v Whyte offer..

Bit rich considering he offered Whyte the same percentage a couple of years ago for a rematch with Joshua...

Take it or sling it.....No one has heard of Whyte in the US and Fury is number 1 and lineal.

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 25 Nov 2021, 7:53 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hearn moaning about Arum's 80/20 Fury v Whyte offer..

Bit rich considering he offered Whyte the same percentage a couple of years ago for a rematch with Joshua...

Take it or sling it.....No one has heard of Whyte in the US and Fury is number 1 and lineal.

Agree. Promoters are all that wrong with boxing, always have been. Wanting a bigger slice of pie for themselves, despite what the fighter is worth.

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Post by kingraf Fri 26 Nov 2021, 8:18 am

Lol fat chance this fight is held in the US. Fury Wallin had all of 4000 people pay to watch live. Fury-Wilder III had all of 600k buys, or $48m. Assuming Fury-Whyte does 2/3rds of that, which is incredibly generous, seeing as Whyte's only really known by boxing fans who have a hard-on for boxers done wrong by the WBC, that would be the equivalent of 900k buys in the UK - a large PPV, but like 60-70% of AJ's biggest nights - so achievable for an apparent superstar of Tyson's fame.

The fight has to be held in the UK financially, and if it is, Whyte is a huge part of why it sells. Even if it is held in the US - Hearn will rightly point to the fact you have to give tickets away for Fury vs Joe Random - ergo if the fight sells, it has to be in large part because Whyte was seen as a legit opponent.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 26 Nov 2021, 8:51 pm

kingraf wrote:Lol fat chance this fight is held in the US. Fury Wallin had all of 4000 people pay to watch live. Fury-Wilder III had all of 600k buys, or $48m. Assuming Fury-Whyte does 2/3rds of that, which is incredibly generous, seeing as Whyte's only really known by boxing fans who have a hard-on for boxers done wrong by the WBC, that would be the equivalent of 900k buys in the UK - a large PPV, but like 60-70% of AJ's biggest nights - so achievable for an apparent superstar of Tyson's fame.

The fight has to be held in the UK financially, and if it is, Whyte is a huge part of why it sells. Even if it is held in the US - Hearn will rightly point to the fact you have to give tickets away for Fury vs Joe Random - ergo if the fight sells, it has to be in large part because Whyte was seen as a legit opponent.

No one said it would he held in the US.....But it would be PPV there and Fury is a bigger name both in the UK and the US....80/20 splits are also the norm...

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Nov 2021, 9:21 pm

Whyte should be Fury's mandatory challenger so a 70-30 split would then be the norm as set out by the WBC's own guidelines.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 29 Nov 2021, 6:43 pm

If it is 70/30 I stand corrected..But I notice Hearn wants 45% for this Whyte Interim champion garbage...

I think we should go back in history and make Tony Galento Interim to Louis.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 29 Nov 2021, 6:48 pm

Interim champions are entitled to a 45% share according to those same guidelines, I'd forgotten Whyre holds that 'title'. What cannot be denied is that all and sundry are trying to screw Whyte.

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Post by Derek Smalls Mon 29 Nov 2021, 8:15 pm

Maybe, but why Whyte was WBC mandatory for so long was a mystery to me. I don't see him as belonging in the top tier.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 29 Nov 2021, 8:21 pm

As in he didn't deserve to be mandatory?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 29 Nov 2021, 9:21 pm

A guy that lost 7-1 to AJ and has been receiving PPV purses for being a glorified trialhorse ever since... Getting screwed !!!

Cry me a river..

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 03 Dec 2021, 8:53 pm

I am with you on the split.

But a glorified trialhorse? I don't buy it Truss. I know you don't rate him, but he wasn't afraid to fight anyone and gladly fought a good deal of the top ten contenders to keep his spot, even if they were dangerous. Wilder wanted nothing to do with him. Chisora twice, Helenius (who recently whacked out the highly-rated Kownacki, twice), Parker, Browne, Rivas , Wach and Povetkin (eventually). Wach aside, most would make the top 10 contenders at the time. Brown & Rivas were unbeaten and considered dangerous.

He's not one for the very top table, we all know that Fury's likely to toy with him and that if he and AJ fight again it'd probably go the same way as their previous fight, but to dismiss him as a trialhorse is downright wrong.

All that time at WBC no.1 contender where Wilder either wouldn't fight him or was tied up with Fury fights, and he risks it against numerous highly rated contenders? Yup, obviously a bleeping trialhorse. He is exciting to watch, if a bit crude, but who doesn't like a heavy with a cracking left hook? Not his fault that his promoter offers him PPV is it?

If he was American you'd be singing from the rooftops about him. Change the record.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 04 Dec 2021, 9:30 am

Probably not a glorified trialhorse by today's awful standards..

But Bonecrusher Smith who would knock him out was regarded as a trialhorse...Lost to Witherspoon..Tubbs and the journeyman Broad..He was brought over to the UK as meat for Bruno...Got hammered for 9 and stopped him in the last..

Beat Witherspoon for the title when Timmy couldn't be bothered training after Tubbs failed a drugs test...Also beat a past it Weaver..

Those wins are far better than 10 loss Derek and Stinky Parker...1-1 with Grandpa Povetkin means diddly too.

Whyte gets creamed off any decent Heavy from the 80s..

A trialhorse for me...

I respect your opinion Bouncy but I don't share it.

Whyte PPV is probably the biggest rip off since Bernie Madoff.

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