Wales International: games, squads, tournaments, chat - 2021/22

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A place to chat about everything ‘Wales’ going forward.

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First up: South Africa 6th November 2021

Wales: Johnny McNicholl; Louis Rees-Zammit, Jonathan Davies (capt), Nick Tompkins, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Tomos Williams; Rhys Carre, Ryan Elias, Tomas Francis, Will Rowlands, Adam Beard, Ellis Jenkins, Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Bradley Roberts, Wyn Jones, WillGriff John, Ben Carter, Seb Davies, Gareth Davies, Gareth Anscombe, Liam Williams.

South Africa: Damian Willemse; Jesse Kriel, Lukhanyo Am, Damian de Allende, Makazole Mapimpi; Handre Pollard, Herschel Jantjies; Ox Nche, Bongi Mbonambi, Trevor Nyakane, Eben Etzebeth, Lood De Jager, Siya Kolisi (capt), Kwagga Smith, Duane Vermeulen.

Replacements: Malcolm Marx, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Franco Mostert, Jasper Wiese, Cobus Reinach, Elton Jantjies, Frans Steyn.

Oakdene wrote:I think for me, this Autumn has showed we need J.Williams at 12 & North at 13, these are now the only two players who are solid enough defensively & offer a good threat going forward. What we really need is multiple players running off the 10 as we are so easy to defend against.

Yes we won two games against teams who had red cards but that is the other sides fault not ours.

I’m not so sure if Johnny Williams did himself any favours this autumn, but previously he has been better. Tompkins is better at 12 but that requires a strong 10 and 13 too. He worked well with North who I agree has to be first choice 13 - if unavailable then it will hopefully be Michael Collins coming in.

Back 3 we have plenty of threats, should have been Holmes over Lane though. Same for halfbacks but nobody is really cementing their place yet.

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m not trying to wind anyone up with this, I’m just very concerned about the state of the game in Wales as a whole.

I agree with this statement.

The regions are still being mismanaged, the game below the regions is more or less an after thought, and the management of the national side is a joke.

But, in saying that, Wales still keep picking up wins..... soooo.... I don't know.

Where do we start ? The regions are just meandering along as they always have done, yet they keep getting money thrown at them, the club game in Wales is sinking fast, oh what to do, what to do ?

What is encouraging though, is the amount of kids in Merthyr and the surrounding areas taking part, Dowlais alone must have about 200 players through the age grades, and the parents are all committed to supporting their kids playing. I just wonder how long this will go on for if they keep feeling they are being neglected by the WRU at the cost of the regions, but you cannot please everyone can you ?

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about most of Pivac’s wins coming against teams where the opposition had a red card - and Aus even out scored us on tries, never mind mentioning the set piece and collisions - we’ve been second best there against everyone. Something isn’t right with this coaching team and they’ve had over a season to fix it. We’re neither good in attack or defence and we’ve taken a sound beating from just about everyone since Pivac and his mates came in.

I’m not trying to wind anyone up with this, I’m just very concerned about the state of the game in Wales as a whole.

Due to various other commitments, much of the Autumn series has passed me by, butI was fortunate to be at the Australia game. I've got to admint I was very disappointed with the Welsh performance. Against 14 men, they should have been the better side, and for the 10 minutes they were against 13, even more so, but for most of the game, the Aussies looked the more dangerous.

I wasn't sure what the game plan was, and think some work is needed.

Granted it was an understrength side, but I does make you worry about the strength beyond the starting XV. It was a chance for those on the fringes to make a statement, but no one really did.

I liked Jenkins though. I just wish he had an extra yard or two of pace. A couple of times his brain got him in great positions, but his legs weren't there to match!!

And on a similar note, what a monstor Tupou is. At times he was running lines a centre would have been proud of, like in the build up to the 1st Aussie try.

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about most of Pivac’s wins coming against teams where the opposition had a red card - and Aus even out scored us on tries, never mind mentioning the set piece and collisions - we’ve been second best there against everyone. Something isn’t right with this coaching team and they’ve had over a season to fix it. We’re neither good in attack or defence and we’ve taken a sound beating from just about everyone since Pivac and his mates came in.

I’m not trying to wind anyone up with this, I’m just very concerned about the state of the game in Wales as a whole.

The fact that opposition team have players sent off is nothing to do with luck, it is failing to grasp the ever changing laws that the game has. Yes we haven't played well however we still won the 6 nations & I think the majority of fans would have taken 2 wins & being in with a score of South Africa if offered it before the start of the AI's.

There is something wrong with the pack, we used to be solid in the scrums, by solid I mean we could hold other teams & not get pushed/disrupted by the opposition.

Like you Mikey, I am worried about the state of rugby across Wales, our regions/club/franchise will never compete at the business end of the Champions Cup which is surely what we all want.

Oakdene wrote:There is something wrong with the pack, we used to be solid in the scrums, by solid I mean we could hold other teams & not get pushed/disrupted by the opposition.

When you have Jonathan Humphries, who couldn't scrummage and was a penalty magnet back in the older days in charge of things for Wales, then that is the only answer you need.

Oakdene wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about most of Pivac’s wins coming against teams where the opposition had a red card - and Aus even out scored us on tries, never mind mentioning the set piece and collisions - we’ve been second best there against everyone. Something isn’t right with this coaching team and they’ve had over a season to fix it. We’re neither good in attack or defence and we’ve taken a sound beating from just about everyone since Pivac and his mates came in.

I’m not trying to wind anyone up with this, I’m just very concerned about the state of the game in Wales as a whole.

The fact that opposition team have players sent off is nothing to do with luck, it is failing to grasp the ever changing laws that the game has. Yes we haven't played well however we still won the 6 nations & I think the majority of fans would have taken 2 wins & being in with a score of South Africa if offered it before the start of the AI's.

There is something wrong with the pack, we used to be solid in the scrums, by solid I mean we could hold other teams & not get pushed/disrupted by the opposition.

Like you Mikey, I am worried about the state of rugby across Wales, our regions/club/franchise will never compete at the business end of the Champions Cup which is surely what we all want.

I suppose the danger is a win sweeping stuff under the carpet. Talking about 2 wins so it's ok where a bounce of the ball here and there, or a less sympathetic view of an incredibly poor clear out may have changed things on another day. For example England won with the last kick of the game against SA, not sure things would have changed that much should smith have kicked it wide though; there's a few Welsh fans I've read saying poor but we've won etc

Well, I’ve seen many years where we’ve been good but lost! E.g. the many close losses to Oz. So playing badly and winning is kind of a better position to be in as the only way is up and potentially winning better. But yes, I second all of the comments about the league (or rather, the regions within the league. It’s not the league’s fault, after all). The players are coming in from poor club environments and are expected to challenge the best in the world. A bit unrealistic. Need to sort the regions to at least give Pivac a fighting chance. Not an easy fix and I don’t know where to start really. It’s not like the regions have all got really inexperienced head coaches and DoRs (unlike a few years back when Dragons would just grab the next Gwent man off the rank and the Blues had Justin Burnell at the helm). There are calls as always to drop to 3 regions from 4. The theory being that we can concentrate the talent more. But that was the theory when going from 12 clubs to 5 and then to 4. And it hasn’t worked. Putting the 4 current squads into 3 won’t magically make the individual players better. Might help league and cup performances slightly but we’ll just have fewer pro players in Wales and a load more playing elsewhere.

So where? A complete overall of the pro game in Wales? Again. Reduce to 3 regions? 2 regions? Toughen our boys up a bit so they don’t all get injured all the time?!

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m not trying to wind anyone up with this, I’m just very concerned about the state of the game in Wales as a whole.

I agree with this statement.

The regions are still being mismanaged, the game below the regions is more or less an after thought, and the management of the national side is a joke.

But, in saying that, Wales still keep picking up wins..... soooo.... I don't know.

Where do we start ? The regions are just meandering along as they always have done, yet they keep getting money thrown at them, the club game in Wales is sinking fast, oh what to do, what to do ?

What is encouraging though, is the amount of kids in Merthyr and the surrounding areas taking part, Dowlais alone must have about 200 players through the age grades, and the parents are all committed to supporting their kids playing. I just wonder how long this will go on for if they keep feeling they are being neglected by the WRU at the cost of the regions, but you cannot please everyone can you ?

To be fair, the semi pro and below haven't had their funding altered, even during COVID, have they? So not quite an after thought. That's not the case for the Welsh pro teams. So who is really getting money thrown at them (especially those semi pro and amateur clubs who pay players etc)? Why are the Welsh pro team owners alluding to the funding disparity (Dragons and Scarlets owners), when things happen like Ireland beating NZ?

The WRU aren't fit for purpose full stop. Not that the majority of people with a passing interest in Welsh rugby will know, due to lack of questioning in the various forms of media and tv coverage etc. It's only recently they've had to throw together a package for Women's rugby, as an obvious example, even if we ignore the mess of the loan for the male Pro teams. But the hotel seems really nice, at least.

The Oracle wrote:

So where? A complete overall of the pro game in Wales? Again. Reduce to 3 regions? 2 regions? Toughen our boys up a bit so they don’t all get injured all the time?!

Honestly, I wouldn't be adverse to reducing the teams to three. There is a lot of filler in each squad (especially Dragons), but if that's all your budget allows you to sign, then that's all you can do really.

But I also think it's harsh when the pro teams get criticised by Pivac etc for not getting the players fit enough. Basham had it as a work on FFS. He's one of the most naturally fit players about, in my opinion.

My fear with them reducing the teams to 3 is that in 5 years one of them might be rubbish and not winning anything so they say they need to cut it again and then we’re down to 2. If the coaching and the structures in the 4 aren’t up to scratch then cutting to 3 isn’t going to help anything.

Let’s say we just scrap the Dragons.  We spread the internationals around the remaining regions and the wider squad players are out on their ears.  I’m not sure we’ll suddenly start winning Heineken Cups by seeing Moriarty to Ospreys, Dee to Blues, Basham to Scarlets, etc.  Firstly there’s good players there already so they’d not all be first choice.  And secondly there are only maybe 6 to 8 Dragons from our best 15 who we could say hand on heart would improve the other regions.  And some would argue against that too. So 6-8 players spread around 3 regions.  Maybe 2 extra players each.  Not going to make much difference.

The other angle is of course money.  Scrapping the Dragons and putting the money to the others. Yep, that can make a big difference.  But where does it get spent?  Don’t we have limits of foreign players?  So not much scope to go shopping for marquee players overseas.  Do the Welsh players agents then cotton on to the increased finances and then hold out for more money knowing the regions’ arms are tied as they have to employ mainly WQ players and their price just rises, thus negating the increased budgets to a certain extent.  You also reduce the space to blood youngsters, which might affect the next generation coming through.

In some ways, I was concerned with things like Elias and Owens as their club first and second choice. Now I think the competition would benefit. Like I say, four is good for certain things, but players like Elliot Dee and Sam Davies would probably flourish more with genuine competition or having to really push for their place. That’s the thing that concerns me a little.

I do agree that it could always end up being a case of reducing for reducing’s sake. Just trying to say if it was justified fully, I could probably get behind it. The reality is it won’t ever happen, due to the pro teams already struggling to play certain talented players coming through.

Sam Davies is a good example of someone I think a reduction to 3 teams would actually be a bad thing. I don’t think he’d even get on the bench at Scarlets or Cardiff. Priestland, Jarrod Evans and Ben Thomas already get in the Wales squad ahead of him and are all at Cardiff. Scarlets have Patchell and Sam Costeloe. Possibly he’d get into Ospreys on the bench as there’s not much behind Anscombe. Just the ageing Myler. But at least at the Dragons he starts every game when he’s fit. Losing the Dragons he might be consigned to a handful of games a season, and that’s even if he manages to get a contract!

I guess a really harsh counter to my argument would be to ask what the point is of a pro contract for someone like Sam Davies if he’s got so many people in front of him and he’s unlikely to get in the Wales squad? So maybe it’s a philosophical point about the purpose of the regions - are they just there to develop players for team Wales? Or do they serve another purpose too?

I do think it’s a bit of both. Players for us like Leon Brown and Taine Basham really need to be starting constantly for us, to aid their development clearly. They wouldn’t get a constant start elsewhere.

It’s just when we turn out players (and I shouldn’t just focus on Dragons obviously) like Joe Davies, Jack Dixon etc who are nothing more than club players, that will make people question us. That said those types of players are crucial to us, when we lose our two Welsh international locks or when we pick up injuries.

Not thinking about the injured players Wales have. ( too many to count) How many of the team/squad that played in the last 2 games foe Wales should keep their place in the 6ns?

I really don't know what the answer is, the semi pro game is not fit for purpose in terms of supporting the regions. A few years ago you'd get a couple of Scarlets players running out for Llanelli RFC but there is no one turning out for them now.

I do think moving down to 3 regions would benefit the national side & as someone alluded to above if a player isn't good enough to get into another regions match day squad then that's not really an issue. We need competitive regions filled with Welsh internationals & less filler players.

I would like to ask all you Wales fans out there. Apart form Biggar and Halfpenny, who is your next fly half in the squad for the 6ns?

Just in case either Biggar or Halfpenny are not avalible.

majesticimperialman wrote:I would like to ask all you Wales fans out there. Apart form Biggar and Halfpenny, who is your next fly half in the squad for the 6ns?

Just in case either Biggar or Halfpenny are not avalible.

1/2p is a fullback. Callum sheedy of Bristol seems to be next in line

lostinwales wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I would like to ask all you Wales fans out there. Apart form Biggar and Halfpenny, who is your next fly half in the squad for the 6ns?

Just in case either Biggar or Halfpenny are not avalible.

1/2p is a fullback. Callum sheedy of Bristol seems to be next in line

I agree about Halfpenny being a full back. but he does take kicks at goal. That is what i was asking who is you r next goal kicker.
For got about sheedy, any one else in mind?

lostinwales wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I would like to ask all you Wales fans out there. Apart form Biggar and Halfpenny, who is your next fly half in the squad for the 6ns?

Just in case either Biggar or Halfpenny are not avalible.

1/2p is a fullback. Callum sheedy of Bristol seems to be next in line

Still? He's not having the best season in the Prem, I thought the Cardiff lad Jarrod Evans(?) might come instead, he's highly rated isn't he?

Anscombe will be in by the 6N which will probably mean Sheedy out as well. Might mean Biggar to the bench as well though Biggar has been struggling with some sort of leg (knee or hamstring) issue for a while. I wonder if actually playing back up and having a lighter load might be good for him, he didn't finish the Lions Tour, left the East Midlands Derby at half time (biggest club game for him this season) I do wonder if he's not operating at considerably less than 100%.

Biggar
Ascombe
Sheedy
Jarrod Evans
Pathchell
Priestland

They’re the current ones, with players like Sam Costelow and Ioan Lloyd (Bristol) up n coming too.

They’re the ones in contention, with outside bets like Ben Thomas and Sam Davies.

I think Patchell and Lloyd are the most gifted of the lot.

Yep, forgot Ben Thomas who has been selected recently. I left Sam Davies out as he is well established at club level (so not up n coming) but gets overlooked at international level. So I fear he won’t get much of a look in at all going forward.

I’ll be watching Patchell’s return to rugby keenly as I agree he has some serious talent. Haven’t seen much of Ioan Lloyd but heard good things.

Ioan Lloyd has dropped out of the 23 man squad at Bristol recently. He's struggled this season which isn't necessarily all his fault given Bristol have been pretty awful. He has played mainly in the back three and his pace isn't getting him out of the problems it was last season. He might get a run during the 6N but next season looks like he'll have even less opportunity with McGinty joining Bristol.

Has Sam Costelow been playing much for the Scarlets? It was seen as a bit of coup when they snagged him back from Leicester. Still very young mind.

Costelow has started a number of games this season in the URC (Leinster, Munster, Lions). So about half. Dan Jones the others. Angus O’Brien sometimes backup.

JDizzle wrote:Has Sam Costelow been playing much for the Scarlets? It was seen as a bit of coup when they snagged him back from Leicester. Still very young mind.

Murphy and the Tigers set up were quite disappointed I think. They'd put some time into him and had him on the same development pathway as Martin and Steward. Had he stayed I suspect he'd have 25 games under his belt by now maybe more. He was very highly rated and a number of his academy teammates are now regulars around the first team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59492172

Hayward failed as Wales U20s coach previously. He was poor as Scarlets' defence coach and even worse as Wales' defence coach. So what do the WRU do? Re-appoint him to an already failing Wales U20s. This Union has garbage for brains.

I didn’t see this posted anywhere so I’ll post it here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59553194

Some here were hopeful he’d move across to another region as he was a decent player, but after his motorcycle accident Ifan Phillips’ career is over. A sad end to a career.

Horrendous news. Hope he can live a good life still!!

Really awful news. Shocking.

I hate to ask, but do we know that it’s definitely career ending? Is ‘life changing injuries’ usually linked to disability or similar? Or is there a chance he could come through this?

Would normally mean very long lasting if not permanent disability, sometimes reduced life expectancy Oracle. He's not playing rugby again and it'll be impacting how he can lead his life from now on. Could be a range of things but I'd like to echo what Risca says above.

HeIfan Phillips: Ospreys hooker reveals he had leg amputation following road traffic collision - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59720824

Ouch…

That's the cruel reality of life. A promising career gone in an instant. Calling it a shame doesn't come close to covering it. Best wishes to him and his family.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59867675

Consdieration being given to playing games in England.

Yes we absolutely should. I can honestly see the regions and then the WRU going into liquidation if we play more games at home with zero spectators. Those complaining about Cardiff's lost revenue can go blame D*ckford.

It's a crazy situation that you can have more people in a club house watching than outside in a stadium.

mikey_dragon wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59867675

Consdieration being given to playing games in England.

Yes we absolutely should. I can honestly see the regions and then the WRU going into liquidation if we play more games at home with zero spectators. Those complaining about Cardiff's lost revenue can go blame D*ckford.

Would you guys buy into Wales playing home games in England? Say at Bristol?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59867675

Consdieration being given to playing games in England.

Yes we absolutely should. I can honestly see the regions and then the WRU going into liquidation if we play more games at home with zero spectators. Those complaining about Cardiff's lost revenue can go blame D*ckford.

Would you guys buy into Wales playing home games in England? Say at Bristol?

From a fan perspective, yes. Would be like 1999 all over again when the MS was being built and we played home games at Wembley.

From a Pubic Health perspective, no

If it wasn’t for the pandemic I would go for it. But of course, it is the pandemic that is creating this situation in the first place.

Yes at Bristol, or at Wembley if the stadium can be maxed out - that should mean more profit. I think a lot of fans are just eager for live international rugby at this point, so travelling to London shouldn’t be too great a hindrance.

Personally....I think regional England could be fantastic. Imagine the Welsh taking over Bristol and the Jocks, Newcastle. Money would be good if not as much and the atmosphere would be amazing.

6N in front of no fans is utterly pointless imo, just cancel it.

The Oracle wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59867675

Consdieration being given to playing games in England.

Yes we absolutely should. I can honestly see the regions and then the WRU going into liquidation if we play more games at home with zero spectators. Those complaining about Cardiff's lost revenue can go blame D*ckford.

Would you guys buy into Wales playing home games in England? Say at Bristol?

From a fan perspective, yes.  Would be like 1999 all over again when the MS was being built and we played home games at Wembley.

From a Pubic Health perspective, no

If it wasn’t for the pandemic I would go for it.  But of course, it is the pandemic that is creating this situation in the first place.

This is it. The Welsh government wouldn't have brought in these measures if it didn't think they were necessary. No government wants to be unpopular - some governments are a bit too keen on being popular, but that's another topic! - but the principle here is that it's not a good idea to have large groups of people gathering when there's a highly-transmissible disease around (and the army is getting drafted in to help in hospitals).

(Speaking of popularity, the most recent poll I can find (from 20th December) had the following results:

'How well or badly do you think the Welsh Government are doing at handling the Welsh NHS?

Well 50%

Badly 36%

Don't know 14%'

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2021-12-19/62-of-people-in-wales-ignore-health-concerns-reveals-new-poll

Most if not all polls I've seen over the last couple of years have shown that the Welsh public think that the Welsh government is handling the pandemic better than the UK government.)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59912695

Owens not going to feature in the 6N. That leaves us with a few guys that are already cropped and someone who isn't internatioanl standard (Elias). Capping Roberts doesn't seem so bad all of a sudden...

Roberts is injured

Oh...

Anyone know if Sam Parry is available?

I guess so, as I haven't noticed him feature for a while. I know Elvis plays a lot and obviously they had Lake on the bench on the weekend.

It's hard to tell though, as I gather off twitter that Ospreys are as bad as Dragons at releasing injury updates.

Parry hasn't played the last two games, so I assume he has some issue.

Who will be Captain for Wales this 6mations?
my choice would of been Ken Owens. but i see he is injured.

majesticimperialman wrote:Who will be Captain for Wales this 6mations?
my choice would of been Ken Owens. but i see he is injured.

Possibly JD2 if he is fit, although he is a bit past it now but doesn’t really have any challengers to his place in the team (sadly).  Possibly Ellis Jenkins but he plays in a very competitive position. Either of those would be my choice in the absence of AWJ and Ken. I’d probably go for Ellis out of the two.

I think Ellis Jenkins. Jenkins is probably certain to start (imo), as I feel Pivac would bench or drop Basham first, if he had a choice.

I’m not really sure on whether Davies will start. I’m sure Pivac would rather he did, but who knows. Have to see who is selected first and who is fit, because I suppose Davies at 12 might be a better option than playing Tompkins at all.