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The Calcutta Cup Saturday 5 Feb 2022

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Post by bsando Wed 19 Jan 2022, 7:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

Scotland vs England

BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh
Saturday 5th of February 2022
Kick Off 4:45pm

What the Coaches are saying

Gregor Townsend - "The players have been in outstanding form for their respective clubs.. and that is outstanding!" *tongue click*

Eddie Jones - "There are some young players getting an opportunity. They just need to make sure they don't get distracted or else they might not do so well."

Scotland Team

1. Sutherland 2. Turner 3. Z Fagerson
4. J Gray 5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie 7. Watson 8. M Fagerson.
9. Price 10. Russell
12. Johnson 13. Harris
11. Van der Merwe 14. Graham
15. Hogg

Replacements: McInally, Schoeman, Nel, Skinner, M Bradbury, White, Kinghorn, Tuipulotu.

England Team

1. Genge 2. Cowan-Dickie 3. Sinckler
4. Itoje 5. Isiekwe
6. Ludlam 7. Curry (c) 8. Simmonds.
9. Youngs 10. Smith
12. Slade 13. Daly
11. Marchant 14. Malins
15. Steward

Replacements: George, Marler, Stuart, Ewels, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford, Nowell.


Last edited by bsando on Thu 03 Feb 2022, 3:12 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Post by Heaf Mon 07 Feb 2022, 1:50 am

I think part of the 'acceptance' is an acknowledgment of Scotland's higher level of performance compared to previously ... but I understand what you're saying and I suspect we all believe with the resources available to England the results in the 6Ns should be much better than they have been of late.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 07 Feb 2022, 4:21 am

I think that's more a nod to how Scotland have improved rather than us RDW, as Heaf suggested.

At full strength, I'd have been pretty confident of an England win....but we were quite depleted in the back 5, centre and wing. Up against a full strength, confident Scotland.....it's not a huge surprise we got beat. I would also expect this side to get beat away to Ireland and France.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Feb 2022, 7:29 am

RDW wrote:Genuine question here and not on the wind up at all - it seems that the English press, media and even EJ himself in the lead up to the game seem to have accepted that England losing was a real possibility and if that happened then it wasn't a complete catastrophe.

Surely the recent World Cup finalists, 3rd ranked team in the world, 2020 Champions with recent win over the reigning World Champions shouldn't be so accepting as A) potentially seeing themselves as underdogs and B) it not being classed as a disaster if they lose.

Never, ever in my life have I known England rugby to have that mindset! EJ may have seen it as putting pressure on Scotland, but really he was already giving his players (and himself) an out if they lost.

Yes England were missing players, but 10 of those who did play were involved in the World Cup final. Depending on what source you go to, England have over 100,000 more adult male rugby players than Scotland. We have 2 pro teams - England has 13, plus semi pro in the lower levels. Scotland have never won the 6N.

Obviously it's nice that Scotland are being respected and taken seriously, I just find it staggering that this result has almost been accepted by England. For me England should be aiming much, much higher and is it not a worry for the fans that this seems to be the case?

Guess it depends on what accepting it looks like in your view. We're you expecting for people to call for him to be sacked. Think there someone on the other thread getting there. Jones made more errors than I've seen from him in 1 game in terms of selection but we still should have won. If we'd been turned over I'd be more upset but sometimes these things happen. I still think we should win the next 3 games and then France away will be interesting.

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Post by George Carlin Mon 07 Feb 2022, 7:41 am

Not sure if people saw this because it was behind a paywall, but this is Nigel Owens in the Telegraph on the key refereeing decisions.
His Mighty Nigeness wrote:
England only have themselves to blame - lack of scrum quality gave Ben O'Keeffe no other choice
NIGEL OWENS
FORMER INTERNATIONAL RUGBY REFEREE


Up until the penalty try England looked in control and the side who was going to win. And then came the key talking point. England will be kicking themselves.

Even the most passionate England supporter can't argue that Luke Cowan-Dickie deliberately knocked the ball forward and into touch, which is a penalty and yellow card in itself. The next question is, would a try probably have been scored? The key thing for people to remember is, it's not a case of definitely or possibly. It's about whether the match officials think 'would a try probably have been scored'. It's a big decision, a tough decision, but to be honest I don't think you can argue with the outcome. Scotland would probably have scored.

Once Cowan-Dickie makes that action, he is no longer part of the equation of what happens next. You cannot say that if he had not deliberately knocked the ball on, that he would have then stopped a try being scored by Darcy Graham. He's eliminated from the equation once that illegal action happens. What he might have done goes out the window. The next question is, would Graham have caught that ball? And if so, would the covering English defence have reached him in time? I don't think so.

You therefore can't argue with the decision. It was a fair call, a pivotal call, but they reached the right conclusion. Had Cowan-Dickie attempted to actually catch the ball then it would have just been a knock-on. But you can clearly see from his actions that he slaps it forward. Scotland from there had their tails up, kicking the penalty to take the lead and holding on for the win.

Regarding the final scrums when England were chasing a penalty, the scrum was one area of the game that never really got going - I think only one of them was completed. All the others were either penalties, free-kicks or reset.

That made it very difficult for referee Ben O'Keeffe, and everyone really, to say which side had any dominance at the scrum, because the referee was not able to build up a picture of which side were on top. The referee was unable to change player behaviour to get good outcomes at the scrum. That's not his fault, as long as he has done everything to change player behaviour, if so then it comes down to the front rows.

Which means when you reached those final scrums, which had to be completed even though the clock had gone red, as a referee you did not have in your mind a clear picture of who was stronger in the scrum. They kept going down on the engagement, apart from the penultimate scrum which spun around.

Initially I thought that could be an England penalty, but reviewing it, that was not a clear-cut penalty either way. A reset was a totally understandable decision for him to give, taking into account the context of the game. You have to be 100 per cent sure. In that position, I would have given a reset as well, given it looks as though both packs swung it round.

England's choice to kick to the corner near the end will be questioned, just as it was in the 2015 Rugby World Cup too against Wales. History almost repeated itself. You're damned if you, damned if you don't in that situation. But it's definitely understandable why they went for that decision over the draw.

One interesting moment was when Joe Marler threw into the lineout and gave away a free-kick for not being five metres, when Cowan-Dickie was off the field. That led to a penalty from which Scotland took the lead. People might have asked why Jamie George was not brought on for the lineout, but if you have a front-row player sin-binned you can only take a player off at the next scrum, because throwing in at the lineout is not deemed to be a specialist position.

England, to bring George on, would have had to make a tactical replacement, which would have meant the player who came off would not be able to return to the field, unless for a player undergoing a head injury assessment or as a blood replacement.

Other than the penalty try though, there were few major talking points for the officials to address. That was a really enjoyable, exciting Calcutta Cup game.
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Post by RDW Mon 07 Feb 2022, 7:45 am

Nigel saying the point I was trying to make yesterday, albeit far more eloquently!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Feb 2022, 8:01 am

Nothing controversial there and as I said O'keefe I thought had a good game. I've seen Owens make similar quotes on being directed by who he think she's the better scrum though over what's happening, not a fan of that. How many scrum pens did England give away in the game?

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 07 Feb 2022, 8:12 am

Another take

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/six-nations-how-the-crucial-final-five-minutes-at-murrayfield-unfolded-cr5mvrmdz

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 07 Feb 2022, 8:18 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
RDW wrote:Genuine question here and not on the wind up at all - it seems that the English press, media and even EJ himself in the lead up to the game seem to have accepted that England losing was a real possibility and if that happened then it wasn't a complete catastrophe.

Surely the recent World Cup finalists, 3rd ranked team in the world, 2020 Champions with recent win over the reigning World Champions shouldn't be so accepting as A) potentially seeing themselves as underdogs and B) it not being classed as a disaster if they lose.

Never, ever in my life have I known England rugby to have that mindset! EJ may have seen it as putting pressure on Scotland, but really he was already giving his players (and himself) an out if they lost.

Yes England were missing players, but 10 of those who did play were involved in the World Cup final. Depending on what source you go to, England have over 100,000 more adult male rugby players than Scotland. We have 2 pro teams - England has 13, plus semi pro in the lower levels. Scotland have never won the 6N.

Obviously it's nice that Scotland are being respected and taken seriously, I just find it staggering that this result has almost been accepted by England. For me England should be aiming much, much higher and is it not a worry for the fans that this seems to be the case?

Guess it depends on what accepting it looks like in your view. We're you expecting for people to call for him to be sacked. Think there someone on the other thread getting there. Jones made more errors than I've seen from him in 1 game in terms of selection but we still should have won. If we'd been turned over I'd be more upset but sometimes these things happen. I still think we should win the next 3 games and then France away will be interesting.

Given the disruption in the build up to the game in the England squad most fans English or otherwse expected it to be close and it was.

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Post by dummy_half Mon 07 Feb 2022, 8:56 am

Feels like a game that got away for England - kind of the opposite of the South Africa game in the autumn, where we were well beaten everywhere but the scoreboard.

I think Scotland got into England's 22 three times all game and came away with two tries and one penalty conceded. England had quite a few 'nearly' moments such as the held up over the line and Smith's kick pass being a couple of yards too long.

I'm not sure I'd say O'Keefe had a good game - was consistent, but never reffed not straight at the lineout, the scrums were a mess and I saw a couple of high tackles (just ones where arms were over shoulders and round necks rather than anything dangerous) go unpunished. I also thought both defensive lines were offside by a foot or so almost every breakdown - I would always prefer refs to push the defence back a bit further.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 07 Feb 2022, 9:07 am

RDW wrote:A valid point Heaf. I'm of course not meaning that England should have been defiant/angry in the post-match interviews and saying it's an outrage they lost (I actually thought England showed great sportsmanship after the final whistle and in the interviews).

I guess this is part of a bigger discussion on EJ's reign. For me England should always be looking to win the 6N (which they may well still do) and be at the business end of world cups. 2 years ago they were there yet produced such a muddled performance at the weekend, where long-standing gripes from the fans were still evident. Of course this may be part of a master plan to not peak too early and build towards the next WC.

As a Scotland fan I've just never known a Calcutta Cup match to be so accepting of Scotland potentially being favourites and also not a surprise that they won. Thinking back to all the great England teams over the years I just find it very strange!

The important point here I guess is that England are generally operating at the same level as they always do and have done over the years - the difference now is Scotland's level is now much higher than it has ever been in the 6N period.

I think your last paragraph is key. Scotland have improved to a level where England losing to them is no surprise. I thought it was about 50-50 going into the game, and the team with the fewer errors justifiably triumphed. I think any of the big four teams at this SN are capable of beating each other.

I don't pay much attention to Jones' comments, he's always like that. The press will range between hailing him a genius when England win, and tarring him when they don't. It's very Brian Clough like how Jones tries to put the pressure on himself and not his players.

As an aside, I disagree with Owens on kicking for the corner - I didn't think it was anything like the 2015 game v Wales. In those conditions it was heavily odds against that a three point shot would be successful.

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Post by dummy_half Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:06 am

Duty281 wrote:...

As an aside, I disagree with Owens on kicking for the corner - I didn't think it was anything like the 2015 game v Wales. In those conditions it was heavily odds against that a three point shot would be successful.

I'd reckon Daly makes that penalty about 1 in 3 attempts, and would have put us level; a miss would have been a drop out, so we likely get the ball back somewhere around halfway. The option of kicking to the corner and setting a play off the lineout was probably better on balance, but screwed by poor execution of both the kick and the throw in. Should have been able to set up a better drop goal chance as an absolute minimum. As others have said, I don't understand why Slade wasn't taking the kick to the corner, as the angle suited the left footer and he'd been doing it all game.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:14 am

dummy_half wrote:
Duty281 wrote:...

As an aside, I disagree with Owens on kicking for the corner - I didn't think it was anything like the 2015 game v Wales. In those conditions it was heavily odds against that a three point shot would be successful.

I'd reckon Daly makes that penalty about 1 in 3 attempts, and would have put us level; a miss would have been a drop out, so we likely get the ball back somewhere around halfway. The option of kicking to the corner and setting a play off the lineout was probably better on balance, but screwed by poor execution of both the kick and the throw in. Should have been able to set up a better drop goal chance as an absolute minimum. As others have said, I don't understand why Slade wasn't taking the kick to the corner, as the angle suited the left footer and he'd been doing it all game.

For all of Ford being the experienced head/seeing out the game.....that kick was just plain awful. It gave Scotland the opportunity to attack the lineout rather than overly worry about the maul which was a huge moment.

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Post by mountain man Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:18 am

I'd love to know why Youngs was kept on for full 80 mins, it's on par with why did Jones sub out Smith and why didn't he get George on to take line out instead of Marler.

Scotland just about deserved win but were gifted it by a stupid error by LCD and lack of tactical nous(again!) by Jones.

On plus side Ludlam had best ever game for Eng, Simmonds was dynamic at 8 and Slade another good game. Isiekwe for all time in int wilderness did well.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:25 am

mountain man wrote:I'd love to know why Youngs was kept on for full 80 mins, it's on par with why did Jones sub out Smith and why didn't he get George on to take line out instead of Marler.

Scotland just about deserved win but were gifted it by a stupid error by LCD and lack of tactical nous(again!) by Jones.

On plus side Ludlam had best ever game for Eng, Simmonds was dynamic at 8 and Slade another good game. Isiekwe for all time in int wilderness did well.

This has been mentioned a few times.....you can't bring on a hooker until a scrum.

Simmonds and Ludlam got stuck in, but both lack the quality/physicality for Int rugby for me.

Youngs.....meh, nothing changes really....he has an awful pass and takes an age to get the ball away. Playing at flyhalf outside him must be a nightmare. It bores me to even comment on his performances these days, so I tend not to. He did well for the Smith try though which I've not seen mentioned much.

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Post by RDW Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:27 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mountain man wrote:I'd love to know why Youngs was kept on for full 80 mins, it's on par with why did Jones sub out Smith and why didn't he get George on to take line out instead of Marler.

Scotland just about deserved win but were gifted it by a stupid error by LCD and lack of tactical nous(again!) by Jones.

On plus side Ludlam had best ever game for Eng, Simmonds was dynamic at 8 and Slade another good game. Isiekwe for all time in int wilderness did well.

This has been mentioned a few times.....you can't bring on a hooker until a scrum.

Simmonds and Ludlam got stuck in, but both lack the quality/physicality for Int rugby for me.

Youngs.....meh, nothing changes really....he has an awful pass and takes an age to get the ball away. Playing at flyhalf outside him must be a nightmare. It bores me to even comment on his performances these days, so I tend not to. He did well for the Smith try though which I've not seen mentioned much.

Could have just made a tactical sub. And ironically they had to do that immediately after because of the dodgy lineout!

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Post by mountain man Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:32 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mountain man wrote:I'd love to know why Youngs was kept on for full 80 mins, it's on par with why did Jones sub out Smith and why didn't he get George on to take line out instead of Marler.

Scotland just about deserved win but were gifted it by a stupid error by LCD and lack of tactical nous(again!) by Jones.

On plus side Ludlam had best ever game for Eng, Simmonds was dynamic at 8 and Slade another good game. Isiekwe for all time in int wilderness did well.

This has been mentioned a few times.....you can't bring on a hooker until a scrum.

Simmonds and Ludlam got stuck in, but both lack the quality/physicality for Int rugby for me.

Youngs.....meh, nothing changes really....he has an awful pass and takes an age to get the ball away. Playing at flyhalf outside him must be a nightmare. It bores me to even comment on his performances these days, so I tend not to. He did well for the Smith try though which I've not seen mentioned much.

Nope, George could have been subbed on at any time.

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Post by Big Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:33 am

RDW wrote:A valid point Heaf. I'm of course not meaning that England should have been defiant/angry in the post-match interviews and saying it's an outrage they lost (I actually thought England showed great sportsmanship after the final whistle and in the interviews).

I guess this is part of a bigger discussion on EJ's reign. For me England should always be looking to win the 6N (which they may well still do) and be at the business end of world cups. 2 years ago they were there yet produced such a muddled performance at the weekend, where long-standing gripes from the fans were still evident. Of course this may be part of a master plan to not peak too early and build towards the next WC.

...

I'm a long time England supporter and have been enthusiastically watching them for the last 30 years.  But this weekend something odd happened, I didn't watch the match, and I didn't particularly want to.  I enjoyed Tigers vs Wuss, and France v Italy (I'm a former Italian resident and have a soft spot for them), but I couldn't be bothered to watch England. And, the short and simple of it is that I have completely lost faith in Eddie Jones.  I thought he did a great job up to RWC 2019, but since then really seems to have lost the plot.  For me he had plenty of credit in the bank to get him through the last couple of seasons, but I'm at the point that I'm bored now.  I can't really fathom some of the selections, nor the tactics that are adopted.  

I've no particular beef with playing a kicking oriented game, but to do that you don't need to pack your team full of footballers.  It takes one guy to kick the ball, but 15 to put in the chase and brutal defensive shift afterwards that are necessary to make the opposition wish you hadn't kicked it to them.  Also, if you're going to kick possession away on a regular basis it is kind of helpful to have enough running threats in your team to make the opportunities you do get count - whether that's a defensive error on the rare occasion you run it, or a turnover thanks to your aggressive defensive effort.  I just don't see how a midfield of Slade/Daly/Farrell offers either of the above (I say Farrell because we all know it's 100% certain he'd have been there if available...).  Nor does it help packing extra centres/fullbacks on the wing.  From where I'm sat, if you want to get the best out of Smith, or indeed Ford, give them a dangerous set of running backs and let them direct their troops - it is what they do best.

In terms of not peaking too early, I can understand that if the issues were around fitness, and maybe more focus on long terms skills development etc rather than the next game in England squad training.  But odd selections and weird tactics don't really help you prepare for a brighter future in any way I can see.

England could still win the tournament (which is crazy really) - though honestly I think 2 wins and 4th is a lot more likely and worse is not out of the question.  As things stand, if I see an equally uninspiring selection next week I'll probably get that same 'Nah, can't be bothered' feeling - though given it is Italy up next I might just cheer them on instead!  Oddly an Italy win might be just what England need if it bumps Eddie out of his rut or out of his job.

I don't intend any of the above to disrespect Scotland - they are clearly on the up, and I wouldn't expect England to win at Murrayfield even if they got everything right.  I didn't watch the game, and suspect the weather was a great leveller (as foul weather often is), but nothing I've read here makes me think I was off with my pre-match thoughts.

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Post by Irish Londoner Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:39 am

The longer he's out of the team, the better Manu Tuilagi appears be getting per the media....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:39 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mountain man wrote:I'd love to know why Youngs was kept on for full 80 mins, it's on par with why did Jones sub out Smith and why didn't he get George on to take line out instead of Marler.

Scotland just about deserved win but were gifted it by a stupid error by LCD and lack of tactical nous(again!) by Jones.

On plus side Ludlam had best ever game for Eng, Simmonds was dynamic at 8 and Slade another good game. Isiekwe for all time in int wilderness did well.

This has been mentioned a few times.....you can't bring on a hooker until a scrum.

Simmonds and Ludlam got stuck in, but both lack the quality/physicality for Int rugby for me.

Youngs.....meh, nothing changes really....he has an awful pass and takes an age to get the ball away. Playing at flyhalf outside him must be a nightmare. It bores me to even comment on his performances these days, so I tend not to. He did well for the Smith try though which I've not seen mentioned much.

You can bring on a hooker at any time for someone other than the yellow carded player. A scrum simply demands that you have 3 qualified front rowers (if you have any left uninjured).

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:40 am

RDW wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mountain man wrote:I'd love to know why Youngs was kept on for full 80 mins, it's on par with why did Jones sub out Smith and why didn't he get George on to take line out instead of Marler.

Scotland just about deserved win but were gifted it by a stupid error by LCD and lack of tactical nous(again!) by Jones.

On plus side Ludlam had best ever game for Eng, Simmonds was dynamic at 8 and Slade another good game. Isiekwe for all time in int wilderness did well.

This has been mentioned a few times.....you can't bring on a hooker until a scrum.

Simmonds and Ludlam got stuck in, but both lack the quality/physicality for Int rugby for me.

Youngs.....meh, nothing changes really....he has an awful pass and takes an age to get the ball away. Playing at flyhalf outside him must be a nightmare. It bores me to even comment on his performances these days, so I tend not to. He did well for the Smith try though which I've not seen mentioned much.

Could have just made a tactical sub. And ironically they had to do that immediately after because of the dodgy lineout!

From Nigel Owens:

"One interesting moment was when Joe Marler threw into the lineout and gave away a free-kick for not being five metres, when Cowan-Dickie was off the field. That led to a penalty from which Scotland took the lead. People might have asked why Jamie George was not brought on for the lineout, but if you have a front-row player sin-binned you can only take a player off at the next scrum, because throwing in at the lineout is not deemed to be a specialist position"

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Post by mountain man Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:44 am

Fair enough. I wasn't aware of that.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:48 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
RDW wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mountain man wrote:I'd love to know why Youngs was kept on for full 80 mins, it's on par with why did Jones sub out Smith and why didn't he get George on to take line out instead of Marler.

Scotland just about deserved win but were gifted it by a stupid error by LCD and lack of tactical nous(again!) by Jones.

On plus side Ludlam had best ever game for Eng, Simmonds was dynamic at 8 and Slade another good game. Isiekwe for all time in int wilderness did well.

This has been mentioned a few times.....you can't bring on a hooker until a scrum.

Simmonds and Ludlam got stuck in, but both lack the quality/physicality for Int rugby for me.

Youngs.....meh, nothing changes really....he has an awful pass and takes an age to get the ball away. Playing at flyhalf outside him must be a nightmare. It bores me to even comment on his performances these days, so I tend not to. He did well for the Smith try though which I've not seen mentioned much.

Could have just made a tactical sub. And ironically they had to do that immediately after because of the dodgy lineout!

From Nigel Owens:

"One interesting moment was when Joe Marler threw into the lineout and gave away a free-kick for not being five metres, when Cowan-Dickie was off the field. That led to a penalty from which Scotland took the lead. People might have asked why Jamie George was not brought on for the lineout, but if you have a front-row player sin-binned you can only take a player off at the next scrum, because throwing in at the lineout is not deemed to be a specialist position"

'England, to bring George on, would have had to make a tactical replacement, which would have meant the player who came off would not be able to return to the field, unless for a player undergoing a head injury assessment or as a blood replacement.'

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 07 Feb 2022, 10:51 am

So they'd have needed to make a full sub which is not ideal. I understand why they waited for the scrum now.

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Post by Heaf Mon 07 Feb 2022, 11:02 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nothing controversial there and as I said O'keefe I thought had a good game. I've seen Owens make similar quotes on being directed by who he think she's the better scrum though over what's happening, not a fan of that. How many scrum pens did England give away in the game?

I saw some more detailed analysis somewhere that suggests Mr O hasn't done his homework maybe - apparently all the England put-ins prior to the last set resulted in a pen or free-kick against Scotland whereas half of the Scottish put-ins resulted in completed scrums ie no pen or free-kick against England.  This would suggest there was actually a 'picture' of the English scrum overall being on top.   I also don't go with the 'context of the game' thing. If it's a pen on 5 mins it's also a pen on 75 mins.  Also apparently of the previous 8 scrums, 4 were set once and 4 were set twice - the last scrum was set 4 times before England were forced to play it away.  I haven't checked the stats myself so stand to be corrected ...


Last edited by Heaf on Mon 07 Feb 2022, 11:33 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by dummy_half Mon 07 Feb 2022, 11:05 am

The Marler line-out was just confusing. Initially looked like Youngs was going to take the throw, but they changed their minds. Also, the issue wasn't really Marler's throw but the error from the catcher in running inside the 5 m line.

Obviously they could have brought George on for e.g. Simmonds, but then would have had to bring Ewels on and move Isikwe to the flank at the end of the sin bin (or take off an outside back and bring Nowell on later). Of course, George missed a critical lineout throw later anyway, so no guarantee the outcome would have been better.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 07 Feb 2022, 11:09 am

dummy_half wrote:The Marler line-out was just confusing. Initially looked like Youngs was going to take the throw, but they changed their minds. Also, the issue wasn't really Marler's throw but the error from the catcher in running inside the 5 m line.

Obviously they could have brought George on for e.g. Simmonds, but then would have had to bring Ewels on and move Isikwe to the flank at the end of the sin bin (or take off an outside back and bring Nowell on later). Of course, George missed a critical lineout throw later anyway, so no guarantee the outcome would have been better.

I can only imagine what Youngs lineout throwing is like...... censored

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 07 Feb 2022, 11:21 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:The Marler line-out was just confusing. Initially looked like Youngs was going to take the throw, but they changed their minds. Also, the issue wasn't really Marler's throw but the error from the catcher in running inside the 5 m line.

Obviously they could have brought George on for e.g. Simmonds, but then would have had to bring Ewels on and move Isikwe to the flank at the end of the sin bin (or take off an outside back and bring Nowell on later). Of course, George missed a critical lineout throw later anyway, so no guarantee the outcome would have been better.

I can only imagine what Youngs lineout throwing is like...... censored

It's somewhat immaterial if the planned throw is to the guy at the front, I think Dombrandt, who steps inside the 5m line and leaves no other option but to either throw a foul or get pinged for delaying. A complete brain fart. To many of those in the second half.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 07 Feb 2022, 1:05 pm

I think some pundits and fans are making a meal out of the Marcus Smith substitution.

I certainly would have kept him on. There was no pressing need to take him off; it would have been a good chance to watch him see out a tight Test match; he also had a couple of fellow Quins players likely to come on, which would probably have given him a lift.

Having said that, bringing Ford on wasn't a terrible idea, or a vote of no confidence in Smith. He's been in great form controlling games for Leicester, and there was every reason to expect he could keep England in the right places, as the game started winding up.

That changed as soon as LCD got exposed, and the scores were level, with England a man down. You'd probably rather have Marcus Smith on the pitch trying to win the match in those circumstances. Still, we shouldn't have been much worse off with Ford, and it's disappointing he didn't have a better 15 minutes.


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Post by king_carlos Mon 07 Feb 2022, 3:44 pm

A lots been made of LCD on the wing but I think that's also just really good play from Russell.

The back to back pinpoint cross field kicks were fantastic to be fair. The first one followed up by Duhan's powerful carry drags the defence completely out of shape, then Russell lands a second one on a sixpence straight away. Seeing back to back cross field kicks like that is very rare. It seemed a pre-planned move given how Scotland were setup for it immediately. Good play.

England losing their discipline and the idiotic short lineout after were less forgivable.

There were some frustrating ref calls in there. I thought the final lineout penalty that England conceded on Scotland's 22 was harsh as to me Isiekwe isn't counter driving early there, rather the jumper has jumped across the line so lands on Isiekwe. That was followed by a lineout very soon after around half way on the other side of the pitch where Scotland obviously did counter drive early and an offence that the ref had been hot on all game didn't get penalised. That followed up by the scrums at the end where I felt Nel just seemed to be having a nice lie down every time the shunt came through.

England should have been able to deal with the pressure after that penalty try and yellow card so much better though but they just built errors on top of errors.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 07 Feb 2022, 4:13 pm

Actually you have to give LCD credit for seeing the danger as quick as he did, he saw it early went flat out to get there. I retrospect he would have done better to let the little man catch it and drive him into touch as soon as his feet hit the ground. We are all wiser after the event, but still a dumb thing to do.
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Post by Poorfour Mon 07 Feb 2022, 4:30 pm

It was a close game, and ultimately one of those days when if a few things had gone differently there could have been a different result.

It was a really strong performance from Scotland. They took their chances well and defended exceptionally.

England looked like a side that hadn't played together before, but were still in a position to win it at the end. They might have gotten more from the ref in terms of the scrum and lineout penalties, but were ultimately the architects of their own demise in selection and YC.

However, that they were so close while playing badly bodes well for the future. They will get better, they have Italy next and then two home games - if they can learn from their mistakes then it's very possible that they could travel to Paris with a shot at the Championship.
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Post by yappysnap Mon 07 Feb 2022, 8:49 pm

Poorfour wrote:It was a close game, and ultimately one of those days when if a few things had gone differently there could have been a different result.

It was a really strong performance from Scotland. They took their chances well and defended exceptionally.

England looked like a side that hadn't played together before, but were still in a position to win it at the end. They might have gotten more from the ref in terms of the scrum and lineout penalties, but were ultimately the architects of their own demise in selection and YC.

However, that they were so close while playing badly bodes well for the future. They will get better, they have Italy next and then two home games - if they can learn from their mistakes then it's very possible that they could travel to Paris with a shot at the Championship.

The problem is I don't know if we will get better. I can easily see us still kicking poorly and wasting chances for most of the championship.

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Post by Gicater Mon 07 Feb 2022, 11:29 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:The longer he's out of the team, the better Manu Tuilagi appears be getting per the media....

It is also mildly amusing, in the context of a few posts above around SA props and England U20s playing for Scotland (even Redpath), that a Samoan is viewed by many as England's saviour with no apparent regard to the hypocrisy involved.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 08 Feb 2022, 4:54 am

Gicater wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:The longer he's out of the team, the better Manu Tuilagi appears be getting per the media....

It is also mildly amusing, in the context of a few posts above around SA props and England U20s playing for Scotland (even Redpath), that a Samoan is viewed by many as England's saviour with no apparent regard to the hypocrisy involved.

It's not that amusing, over half the Scottish 6N squad is born outside of Scotland so it's quite easy to go down that path really.

I personally respect the route Scotland has had to take over the years with it's shopping outside. There's no way they could expect to be constantly competitive with only Scottish players and 2 professional sides, something needed to be done.

On Tuilagi, he has lived half his life in England and learnt his rugby there. I would suggest he's not really making much of impact on the list of current rugby mercenaries.....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Feb 2022, 8:50 am

They all qualify. There is no Shane Howarth. Get on with it.

*there should be better compensation for use of players who appeared for other u20s teams.

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Post by Irish Londoner Tue 08 Feb 2022, 9:37 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:The Marler line-out was just confusing. Initially looked like Youngs was going to take the throw, but they changed their minds. Also, the issue wasn't really Marler's throw but the error from the catcher in running inside the 5 m line.

Obviously they could have brought George on for e.g. Simmonds, but then would have had to bring Ewels on and move Isikwe to the flank at the end of the sin bin (or take off an outside back and bring Nowell on later). Of course, George missed a critical lineout throw later anyway, so no guarantee the outcome would have been better.

I can only imagine what Youngs lineout throwing is like...... censored

It's somewhat immaterial if the planned throw is to the guy at the front, I think Dombrandt, who steps inside the 5m line and leaves no other option but to either throw a foul or get pinged for delaying. A complete brain fart. To many of those in the second half.

If they don't have a back up thrower, then wouldn't it have been easier to say to Marler "just chuck it straight but as far as you can and we'll deal with it after that", rather than trying the "clever" short line out.

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Post by jimbopip Tue 08 Feb 2022, 10:12 am

All credit to Joe Marler ! He has put a video clip on social media of that throw with his own commentary. It is hilarious. Top man !
I've had a soft spot for him ever since he signed the collar of my Scotland jersey at Twickers. It was fiddly and awkward but he took his time and made a very honest comment about why England had put 61 points on Scotland.
"All week they'd been giving it What we're going to do.! At our home ! Yeah feccin right!"
How can you not love that level of honesty?

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Post by Heaf Tue 08 Feb 2022, 11:55 am

Did you see his response to LCD's apology tweet? That was funny too ...

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Post by BigGee Wed 09 Feb 2022, 7:32 pm

Our old boy, Graham Love adds his usual effort to the proceedings

The Hype Train steams on!


https://twitter.com/glove931/status/1491395498607255553


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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 09 Feb 2022, 10:02 pm

https://youtu.be/P_ZGkLr-O3E

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Post by BigGee Wed 09 Feb 2022, 10:17 pm

I am enjoyed watching that!

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