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European Quarter Finals

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No 7&1/2
theslosty
Duty281
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Post by neilthom7 Wed 04 May 2022, 3:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

It's straight knockout time in both European competitions with the Quarter finals this weekend starting with the all English Challenge Cup Quarter on Friday night. Plenty of rugby and some scintillating games to look forward to.

All Times UK and Ireland time and games on BT Sport in UK and beIN Sports in France.

Friday 6th May 2022

Gloucester v Saracens- Kingsholm, Gloucester- 20:00- Challenge Cup

Saturday 7th May 2022

Edinburgh v Wasps- DAM Health Stadium, Edinburgh- 12:30- Challenge Cup
Munster v Toulouse- Aviva Stadium, Dublin- 15:00 KO- Champions Cup
La Rochelle v Montpellier- Stade Marcel Deflandre, La Rochelle- 17:30 KO- Champions Cup
Leicester Tigers v Leinster- Welford Road, Leicester- 17:30 KO- Champions Cup
Lyon v Glasgow Warriors- Malmut Stadium De Gerland, Lyon- 20:00- Challenge Cup

Sunday 8th May 2022

Toulon v London Irish- Stade Felix Mayol, Toulon- 12:30- Challenge Cup
Racing 92 v Sale Sharks- Paris La Defense Arena, Paris- 15:00- Champions Cup

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Post by king_carlos Sat 07 May 2022, 6:57 pm

Only 7 points to show from all of it for Tigers though. Just not clinical enough.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 May 2022, 6:58 pm

Is van Poortvliet just not chosen or carrying an injury for the game?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 May 2022, 7:01 pm

2nd game I've seen this weekend when players don't know they can be charged down from a free kick!

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Post by king_carlos Sat 07 May 2022, 7:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is van Poortvliet just not chosen or carrying an injury for the game?

Tigers don't release any information on injuries under Borthwick so no way to know.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 May 2022, 7:01 pm

Scrum until you get a yellow or a pen try surely.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 May 2022, 7:04 pm

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Is van Poortvliet just not chosen or carrying an injury for the game?

Tigers don't release any information on injuries under Borthwick so no way to know.
You'd hope, in a way, he's injured. Would have been perfect to come on and give him great experience.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 07 May 2022, 7:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Scrum until you get a yellow or a pen try surely.

They've not been getting the rewards for scrum dominance most the game so I'd hope so.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 May 2022, 7:06 pm

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Scrum until you get a yellow or a pen try surely.

They've not been getting the rewards for scrum dominance most the game so I'd hope so.
I only got to watch from 50 so seen that Genge has them on toast. Albeit that was a pen. It was the right choice for me.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 07 May 2022, 7:09 pm

On two or three scrums in the first half the assistants were calling pens against Leinster and Raynal ignored them, played on.

Genge went down there though. Another chance goes begging.

Too good a side for Tigers this early in their development. When we've played poorly against Premiership sides this season our defence has frequently kept it tight, then the fitness sees a late surge of scores. Leinster are too good for it to have stayed tight and their fitness is just as good to keep going for 80. Simply the better team.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 May 2022, 7:10 pm

king_carlos wrote:On two or three scrums in the first half the assistants were calling pens against Leinster and Raynal ignored them, played on.

Genge went down there though. Another chance goes begging.

Too good a side for Tigers this early in their development. When we've played poorly against Premiership sides this season our defence has frequently kept it tight, then the fitness sees a late surge of scores. Leinster are too good for it to have stayed tight and their fitness is just as good to keep going for 80. Simply the better team.
You missed Kelly? For me he's gone a bit under the radar for the reason you've done so well. Possibly lacking a bit of oomph in midfield without him for me.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 07 May 2022, 7:13 pm

Kelly's been a huge loss. A rock in defence and offers go forward in attack.

I wanted Porter at 12 over Scott due to Porter's carrying but probably the wrong call in retrospect. Scott's experience would've been useful in a big game.

I still don't quite get Moroni going off unless he had a knock. Didn't look like it.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 07 May 2022, 7:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:On two or three scrums in the first half the assistants were calling pens against Leinster and Raynal ignored them, played on.

Genge went down there though. Another chance goes begging.

Too good a side for Tigers this early in their development. When we've played poorly against Premiership sides this season our defence has frequently kept it tight, then the fitness sees a late surge of scores. Leinster are too good for it to have stayed tight and their fitness is just as good to keep going for 80. Simply the better team.
You missed Kelly? For me he's gone a bit under the radar for the reason you've done so well. Possibly lacking a bit of oomph in midfield without him for me.

An absolutely huge miss for us today. Porter has been targeted at 12. He's not a bad player but he's a solid club player compared to the club's go to defensive lynch pin in Kelly.

Tigers have been all over Leinster this half but we just aren't clinical enough to make the most of it. The Rob sounds cocky on commentary but the Leinster attack hasn't got going at all and they've spent most the half in their half. The Leinster defence has just been a lot better than the Tigers attack sadly. First half left us too much to do against a class outfit.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 07 May 2022, 7:17 pm

Nice consolation try. Leinster time wasting again on the restart. They've not wanted to be here all the second half they know they did the damage in the first.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 May 2022, 7:20 pm

Love Kay on commentary. Adds so much to each game he's in.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 07 May 2022, 7:22 pm

14-3 to Tigers in the second half but all the damage was done in that dire first 40 sadly.

If I'd have been told in September our first home loss this season would come in a Champions Cup QF against Leinster I'd have ripped your arm off to be fair.

Tigers limitations laid bare today though.

Congratulations to Leinster. They were by far the better team and favourites for the title in my opinion.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 07 May 2022, 7:41 pm

king_carlos wrote:14-3 to Tigers in the second half but all the damage was done in that dire first 40 sadly.

If I'd have been told in September our first home loss this season would come in a Champions Cup QF against Leinster I'd have ripped your arm off to be fair.

Tigers limitations laid bare today though.

Congratulations to Leinster. They were by far the better team and favourites for the title in my opinion.

To be fair I think the neutrals would have been furious if we'd somehow won that and deprived them of Leinster Vs Toulouse next weekend. That should be a cracking game.

This game will serve as a good learning opportunity for the side. Borthwick an reiterated several times this season that the team is still under development. This is showing us just at what level we need to be aiming for. Leinster haven't been top of the pile in Europe for years by accident. We've got some young lads that will learn a lot from this and the young lads were generally our best players.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 07 May 2022, 9:56 pm

Rugby matches should never be won or lost by a penalty kicking competition.

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Post by Heaf Sun 08 May 2022, 2:29 pm

Irish lose by 1 away to Toulon who were helped by some highly suspect officiating Crying or Very sad

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 08 May 2022, 2:35 pm

Decent try from Arundell

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Post by Heaf Sun 08 May 2022, 2:54 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Decent try from Arundell

Yes indeed - another one of quite a few now in fact - just need to keep hold of him now.

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Post by Heaf Sun 08 May 2022, 3:02 pm

My favourite comment from another forum ....

"Rumour has it Toulon have already started pushing in the scrums for the semi final"

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Post by Heaf Sun 08 May 2022, 3:08 pm

How was that tackle not looked at in the Racing Sale match? Oh French director - but is the TMO still in the toilet?

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Post by Heaf Sun 08 May 2022, 4:46 pm

Do the TV directors really control what footage the TMOs have access to as there have been so many things that don't seem to have been properly looked at?

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Post by Heaf Sun 08 May 2022, 4:54 pm

Sale not my favourite team but Brace has done them no favours with some appalling decisions .... French teams definitely getting full home advantage with the officiating today ...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 08 May 2022, 8:23 pm

Hasn't been the best weekend for the officials sadly. Hopefully we'll see a step up for the semi finals next weekend.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 09 May 2022, 12:24 am

Heaf wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Decent try from Arundell

Yes indeed - another one of quite a few now in fact - just need to keep hold of him now.

Yeah, Wales are keeping a close eye on him Smile.

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Post by Heaf Mon 09 May 2022, 1:12 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Heaf wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Decent try from Arundell

Yes indeed - another one of quite a few now in fact - just need to keep hold of him now.

Yeah, Wales are keeping a close eye on him Smile.

warning

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 09 May 2022, 7:26 am

Heaf wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Heaf wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Decent try from Arundell

Yes indeed - another one of quite a few now in fact - just need to keep hold of him now.

Yeah, Wales are keeping a close eye on him Smile.


warning

They can join the queue, both England and Scotland are already there. Players as explosive as him are rare, won't just be at international level he'll have suitors either.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 09 May 2022, 11:37 am

Wasn't sure whether to whack this in the Prem thread but...BBC article.

'Sale Sharks director of rugby Alex Sanderson says the reduction in the Premiership salary cap is making it harder for English teams to compete with French sides in Europe.

There will be no English representation in the Champions Cup semi-finals after Sale were beaten 41-22 by Racing 92.

The Premiership salary cap was cut by £1.4m to £5m at the start of 2021-22, compared to £8.5m in the Top 14.

"You don't have the money to sign the quality needed," said Sanderson.

In England's top flight, changes have also been agreed to the marquee player dispensation, which will remain as two players' salaries not counting towards the cap for the next two seasons before being reduced to one from the 2022-23 season.

Exeter won the title in 2020 to keep the trophy in English hands for the fourth time in five seasons. However, there have been slimmer pickings since then, with no Premiership side making the last four in each of the past two seasons.

Asked if the salary cap was preventing English teams from competing with their French counterparts - who will provide three of this season's last four - Sanderson said: "Yes of course it does.

"There's been a difference in the salary cap forever between the French and English clubs. Toulon used to have a £20m salary cap and the English clubs were on £5-6m - and yet they managed to win.

"You can make up the gap in the salary cap through really good coaching, decent infrastructure, and culture as well. You can bridge the gap through talent, through cohesion and decent coaching."

Sale produced an impressive first half in Paris as they led 10-6 at the interval before Racing turned it around after the break with four tries.

"It's really frustrating," said Sanderson. "I don't think you can argue with the result. You don't win quarter-finals by shipping 40 points.

"It wasn't for a lack of effort. Our set-piece, and our physicality for the most part, was right up there, but some of our decisions gifted them some fast ball.

"We played into their hands in the second half, and the game went away from us."'

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 09 May 2022, 11:43 am

He has a point but it sounds a bit feeble after getting drubbed.

The French clubs and Leinster operate on a complete different level, they always have done....it's hardly news. Sanderson really strikes me as a bit of an underperforming whinge-bag if I'm honest.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 09 May 2022, 11:47 am

I agree with him. Money makes better teams. It's an internal issue for the PRL to agree though.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 09 May 2022, 12:08 pm

The salary cap definitely does make it harder to compete in Europe. The point of the salary cap is to prevent teams bankrupting themselves through uncontrollable wage inflation rather than help them win trophies though.

It's only one more season at the reduced cap anyway then it's due to go back to "at least it's previous level". That was the agreement that got the clubs to unanimously agree to the reduction in the wake of covid.

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Post by Heaf Mon 09 May 2022, 4:46 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Heaf wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Heaf wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Decent try from Arundell

Yes indeed - another one of quite a few now in fact - just need to keep hold of him now.

Yeah, Wales are keeping a close eye on him Smile.


warning

They can join the queue, both England and Scotland are already there. Players as explosive as him are rare, won't just be at international level he'll have suitors either.

At least Bath probably won't be nicking this one ...

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Post by Brendan Tue 10 May 2022, 11:52 am

People always look at the headline figure but don't look into any details when it comes to wages and caps.

T14 have by far the highest average wage bill across the leagues.  They do have extra games during the year, no rest weeks, short off season and probably the most physical league.  When teams like Monpellier put out their second string in Europe they are disrespecting the Cup even though a large chunk of their wage cap goes on these players unlike the Premership and URC where second and third string players are on much Iower wages.  You can't say they have massive budgets then give out when the use players who make the budgets so high which we tend to do with the French.

Premiership figure is always given as the limit such as the £5m for the coming season but never mentions the academy credits and marque player (s) that probably lifts the cap by over £1m+.  Do the T14 do a similar rule or are URC teams adjusted accordingly.  You would assume for most URC teams those credits would be fully used.

URC probably has the most varied rules and structures.  Leinster have a massive budget but also use the most players because they have the most restrictions placed on them.  SA teams or Zebre have the smallest budgets but €3m in SA goes alot further than Italy.   URC as big enough squads but has the biggest enforced rest/away periods.  If you are Leinster, Glasgow or Benetton you will miss alot of your first team players for the games around 6 Nations and AIs. If you are Welsh or SA you will probably be missing players for a large chunk of the season and the wages go on filling those holes.  Add in mandated rest periods such as I think the Scots is they must be rested 1 in 5 which Cockers struggled with at Edinbrugh as he had to rest the whole team because he like his first 23 (like most Premership managers)

English league's main problem seems to be smart rotation and only Sarries seemed to be able to do it (maybe cap breaking may have helped) while Exeter in the Covid year adapted best as had two teams on the go so could manage league and Europe..  It's not like Leicester had to play their top players at home v Bristol and could have rested some of those players and still won.  What does the tigers squad gain for next year by starting players like Genre or Ford for a nothing game when both are leaving at the end of the year.  Surely v Bristol giving starts to players like Whitcombe who is there next year or having the 3rd choice scrum half on the bench instead of a 38 year old is smart planning, surely games like that are made for Nic Dolly but to play none as starters shows the mentality .  Maybe there are injuries but it seems to me the issue is not wage caps but giving youth a go in every game (one or two off the bench or starting occasionally).  If Tigers had of won Saturday all we would have heard is Leinster aren't match ready or steel sharpens steel stuff.  But how the Irish teams especially Leinster have these amazing squads is they give players two years to get into the team by picking out games to play them as bench or starters and if they show promise they get fast tracked.

Finally while Leinster have a large wage bill only 4 of there starting 23 where not from their academy
JGP, Lowe, Ala'alatoa and Henshaw (was right on the broader of Leinster and Connacht and ended up in Connacht because of the school he went to).  It's not like the IRFU are putting all their internationals into Leinster from the other provinces which is how it can come across when people talk about wages and Leinster effectively being Ireland.

I know Wiki can be wrong but of the 43 in the Tigers Senior squad 23 are English.  Leinster have 45 in their senior squad, 1 isn't Irish qualified and as above only 4 didn't come through the academy.  Munster have 49 of which 8 are none Irish quailifed though 4 of those just have not been picked.  Players from an area are more likely to play for less money for their home team so I think the Premiership teams to focus on bringing youth through better rather them feeling they need to move because a cheap import is in their way. For the French Toulouse have 40 in their senior squad 12 aren't French, Is Rochelle 43/16, Racing 36/9 so the French are more home based than Tigers though that in part could be due to the health production line that is ProD2 for players like Dupont who moved to Casters underage after Auch were relegated from ProD2 in 13/14 . Would he have been picked up by Castre if the ProD2 wasn't the beast it is.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 10 May 2022, 11:57 am

Well Leicester will have trouble fielding Genge and Ford consistently next season that's a definite.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 10 May 2022, 12:18 pm

Brendan wrote:

English league's main problem seems to be smart rotation and only Sarries seemed to be able to do it (maybe cap breaking may have helped) while Exeter in the Covid year adapted best as had two teams on the go so could manage league and Europe..  It's not like Leicester had to play their top players at home v Bristol and could have rested some of those players and still won.  What does the tigers squad gain for next year by starting players like Genre or Ford for a nothing game when both are leaving at the end of the year.  Surely v Bristol giving starts to players like Whitcombe who is there next year or having the 3rd choice scrum half on the bench instead of a 38 year old is smart planning, surely games like that are made for Nic Dolly but to play none as starters shows the mentality .  Maybe there are injuries but it seems to me the issue is not wage caps but giving youth a go in every game (one or two off the bench or starting occasionally).

Tigers rotate away from home. Play the first team at home. Have done all season. They rotated a fair bit away to Quins in the round before, losing narrowly at the Stoop. The midweek PRC game meant more rotation was a bit more difficult.

Of the team named at the weekend 11 of the 23 were from the academy (Cole, Green, Chessum, Reffell, Youngs, Ford, Steward, Whitcombe, Heyes, Wells, Martin) with a further four (Genge, Potter, Porter and Dolly) taken on by the club when they were in training squads or second tier competitions, then being developed at Tigers. Only Montoya, Liebenburg, Weise, Moroni and Nadolo are NEQ from the 23 at the weekend and I think Liebenburg might qualify soonish. Note Reffell qualifies on residency.

Leinster have some advantages maybe but I don't think that had a particular bearing on the game. Tigers are still in a rebuild phase and our attack isn't honed enough to trouble a top European team such as Leinster.

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Post by Brendan Tue 10 May 2022, 12:23 pm

On a side note with Leinster looking strong what would people think, with Ireland going to New Zealand and possibly playing a SR side should the IRFU get Cullen to go down with the management team and play the Leinster lads only v the SR squad (topped up with Connacht where needed which would be TH).

Would be good for the IRFU/NZRU as would sell better on TV if sold as SR v HC, and also would be good to see where the NZ teams are in relation to the European Club teams. Not sure NZRU would be in favour as if they lost it removes the idea of SR being as good as HC much like what the Club WC in soccer has done to South American Football.

Role on the Rugby Club championships if not.

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Post by Brendan Tue 10 May 2022, 12:42 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Brendan wrote:

English league's main problem seems to be smart rotation and only Sarries seemed to be able to do it (maybe cap breaking may have helped) while Exeter in the Covid year adapted best as had two teams on the go so could manage league and Europe..  It's not like Leicester had to play their top players at home v Bristol and could have rested some of those players and still won.  What does the tigers squad gain for next year by starting players like Genre or Ford for a nothing game when both are leaving at the end of the year.  Surely v Bristol giving starts to players like Whitcombe who is there next year or having the 3rd choice scrum half on the bench instead of a 38 year old is smart planning, surely games like that are made for Nic Dolly but to play none as starters shows the mentality .  Maybe there are injuries but it seems to me the issue is not wage caps but giving youth a go in every game (one or two off the bench or starting occasionally).

Tigers rotate away from home. Play the first team at home. Have done all season. They rotated a fair bit away to Quins in the round before, losing narrowly at the Stoop. The midweek PRC game meant more rotation was a bit more difficult.

Of the team named at the weekend 11 of the 23 were from the academy (Cole, Green, Chessum, Reffell, Youngs, Ford, Steward, Whitcombe, Heyes, Wells, Martin) with a further four (Genge, Potter, Porter and Dolly) taken on by the club when they were in training squads or second tier competitions, then being developed at Tigers. Only Montoya, Liebenburg, Weise, Moroni and Nadolo are NEQ from the 23 at the weekend and I think Liebenburg might qualify soonish. Note Reffell qualifies on residency.

Leinster have some advantages maybe but I don't think that had a particular bearing on the game. Tigers are still in a rebuild phase and our attack isn't honed enough to trouble a top European team such as Leinster.

Thanks Sam, helps to have that insight and makes sense why the rotation didn't happen the week before but may have if Tigers had been away.  

I would assume that Tigers want to finish first in the league and get a home semi v possibly Saints rather than Quinn's.

Can you see them putting 1.5 team out over the last two rounds or will they keep their current system.

One thing that seems to be happening at Tigers (maybe media hype or outside view) that alot of the exciting players that are giving performances are the young players and seems next year those young players will make Tigers much stronger where as Sarries maybe is the other way with more players getting old.

Do tigers have injuries at 9/10 going off the ages of the back ups.  I think Van Poortviliet sounds familiar from games but Lancaster does not other than ihs Dad connection.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 10 May 2022, 1:54 pm

Brendan wrote:
Thanks Sam, helps to have that insight and makes sense why the rotation didn't happen the week before but may have if Tigers had been away.  

I would assume that Tigers want to finish first in the league and get a home semi v possibly Saints rather than Quinn's.

Can you see them putting 1.5 team out over the last two rounds or will they keep their current system.

One thing that seems to be happening at Tigers (maybe media hype or outside view) that alot of the exciting players that are giving performances are the young players and seems next year those young players will make Tigers much stronger where as Sarries maybe is the other way with more players getting old.

Do tigers have injuries at 9/10 going off the ages of the back ups.  I think Van Poortviliet sounds familiar from games but Lancaster does not other than ihs Dad connection.

Tigers don't release any injury information as a policy under Borthwick so it's impossible to know if JvP was injured or left out. If fit I'd expect him to have played though.

Lancaster looks more of a 12 to me. I've not been convinced by him at all yet, there's a long way to go. He's not nailed down a shirt with Nottingham on loan and his PRC appearances have been mixed. As a 10 he plays so far behind the gain line it makes practically anything the backline tries toothless.

We've a gap in 10s coming through having lost Costelow to Scarlets though. He always looked an absolute star in the making for the academy. To a lesser extent Tom Hardwick had (still could have IMO) the talent to be a decent Premiership 10 or 12 as well but some attitude issues seem to have derailed that for the time being sadly. There's a talented 10 in the U18s I'm expecting to get a first pro contract next season though which is good to see.

Tigers should keep improving though. Players such as Steward, Heyes, Martin, Chessum, Reffell, JvP, Kelly, etc are already strong first XV players and should only improve further. Emeka Ilione is another huge talent I'm hoping can do big things over the next few years. The squad's in a really good place overall!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 10 May 2022, 2:10 pm

Brendan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Brendan wrote:

English league's main problem seems to be smart rotation and only Sarries seemed to be able to do it (maybe cap breaking may have helped) while Exeter in the Covid year adapted best as had two teams on the go so could manage league and Europe..  It's not like Leicester had to play their top players at home v Bristol and could have rested some of those players and still won.  What does the tigers squad gain for next year by starting players like Genre or Ford for a nothing game when both are leaving at the end of the year.  Surely v Bristol giving starts to players like Whitcombe who is there next year or having the 3rd choice scrum half on the bench instead of a 38 year old is smart planning, surely games like that are made for Nic Dolly but to play none as starters shows the mentality .  Maybe there are injuries but it seems to me the issue is not wage caps but giving youth a go in every game (one or two off the bench or starting occasionally).

Tigers rotate away from home. Play the first team at home. Have done all season. They rotated a fair bit away to Quins in the round before, losing narrowly at the Stoop. The midweek PRC game meant more rotation was a bit more difficult.

Of the team named at the weekend 11 of the 23 were from the academy (Cole, Green, Chessum, Reffell, Youngs, Ford, Steward, Whitcombe, Heyes, Wells, Martin) with a further four (Genge, Potter, Porter and Dolly) taken on by the club when they were in training squads or second tier competitions, then being developed at Tigers. Only Montoya, Liebenburg, Weise, Moroni and Nadolo are NEQ from the 23 at the weekend and I think Liebenburg might qualify soonish. Note Reffell qualifies on residency.

Leinster have some advantages maybe but I don't think that had a particular bearing on the game. Tigers are still in a rebuild phase and our attack isn't honed enough to trouble a top European team such as Leinster.

Thanks Sam, helps to have that insight and makes sense why the rotation didn't happen the week before but may have if Tigers had been away.  

I would assume that Tigers want to finish first in the league and get a home semi v possibly Saints rather than Quinn's.

Can you see them putting 1.5 team out over the last two rounds or will they keep their current system.

One thing that seems to be happening at Tigers (maybe media hype or outside view) that alot of the exciting players that are giving performances are the young players and seems next year those young players will make Tigers much stronger where as Sarries maybe is the other way with more players getting old.

Do tigers have injuries at 9/10 going off the ages of the back ups.  I think Van Poortviliet sounds familiar from games but Lancaster does not other than ihs Dad connection.

JVP has played quite a bit, I and most other Tigers fans were disappointed not to see him on the bench Vs Leinster. I think Wigglesworth was on there as Borthwick envisaged a tight game which didn't come to pass in terms of the scoreboard. Lancaster I think will become an inside centre. Tigers have an England under 19 flyhalf in Walsh and an England under 18 flyhalf in Meredith so possibly one of those will break through. The scrum half pipeline is churning along well though with England under 20 Edwards looking like a younger Wigglesworth.

The academy rebuild done a few years ago has massively helped us, the development pathway Murphy introduced (no doubt a more Irish influenced scheme perhaps) and then the moneyball approach to signings (young guys overlooked or older guys judged to be done too early) have generated an interesting squad make up. A lot of the younger guys are either Tiger cubs or young guys that have been overlooked and written off so they've tended to come in wanting to make a difference and that's your Dolly, Porter, Potter, Kelly types.

Re rotation I expect quite a bit for the away game at Newcastle but then us to go strong on the final day Vs Wasps. Leinster is the only game we've lost at home all season so I think Borthwick would rather like to finish the league season undefeated at home. Welford Road has lost its aura in recent seasons and he wants to build that back up again.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 10 May 2022, 2:56 pm

He dropped a b*llock if van Poorvliet were fit and it was a choice not to play him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 10 May 2022, 4:17 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He dropped a b*llock if van Poorvliet were fit and it was a choice not to play him.

Hindsight being 20/20 yes. I sort of got the Wigglesworth selection in that it was expected to be an arm wrestle game where Tigers would need procession in order to get the win over the finish line. As it stood the shoddy first half where we didn't really turn up and Leinster very much did gave us a lot of catching up to do where JVP would have been more useful.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 10 May 2022, 4:24 pm

Not overly hindsight. van Poortvliet is your best scrum half, you don't leave them out of the big games. Unless all the eggs are in the prem basket.

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Post by Collapse2005 Tue 10 May 2022, 4:59 pm

Brendan wrote:On a side note with Leinster looking strong what would people think, with Ireland going to New Zealand and possibly playing a SR side should the IRFU get Cullen to go down with the management team and play the Leinster lads only v the SR squad (topped up with Connacht where needed which would be TH).

Would be good for the IRFU/NZRU as would sell better on TV if sold as SR v HC, and also would be good to see where the NZ teams are in relation to the European Club teams.  Not sure NZRU would be in favour as if they lost it removes the idea of SR being as good as HC much like what the Club WC in soccer has done to South American Football.

Role on the Rugby Club championships if not.

It wouldnt make any sense in my view. The focus for this tour should only be the Ireland team and what they want to get out of the tour.

I would 100% be happy with 1 win v NZ, no humiliations and game time for all.


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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 10 May 2022, 5:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not overly hindsight. van Poortvliet is your best scrum half, you don't leave them out of the big games. Unless all the eggs are in the prem basket.

Not yet he isn't. He's still a rough diamond. There's not much between him, Ben and Wigglesworth. Ben is the best all round of the three, Wigglesworth uses his experience to control games well. JVP is the best attacking option, he does have some issues particularly when he drops into the backfield he's not the best at covering kicks which may have counted against him Vs Sexton.

I'd hope he plays a major role in the last two Prem fixtures with an eye to him being involved in the play off games.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 12 May 2022, 9:02 am

I haven't watched too many Leicester matches this term, but I would agree Youngs is still their best 9. Wiggly is excellent for closing out matches. JVP is still a young up-and-comer. Ways to go. But nice to see more and more younger options at 9 in the England pool.

England can now seemingly make (breed?) back rows, fullbacks, scrum-halves almost on demand. Now, how about 12s....

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Post by profitius Thu 12 May 2022, 7:11 pm

Incredible to think Toulouse knocked Ulster and Munster out by scoring 1 point more in total.
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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 15 May 2022, 4:30 pm

I think both Munster and Ulster really should have beat them.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 16 May 2022, 10:06 am

Well this might trigger a few, but I think Leinster are one of best teams ever.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 May 2022, 10:45 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Well this might trigger a few, but I think Leinster are one of best teams ever.

I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion Mikey, even if they do win the EC this time round.

In reality, you could say they aren't even the best Leinster side ever with the one of 2009-12 returning 3 HC's in 4 years.....this side have a long way to go to get close to that level. That's before we even get into the fantastic Saracens and Toulon sides of the last 10 years.

Leinster look a great team, backed with an amazing squad and one of the biggest budgets in club rugby. They are probably the best team in the NH currently.......best team ever, they are not.

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