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URC=Better League

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Post by Pot Hale Sat 11 Jun 2022, 12:01 am

First topic message reminder :

Been a great season from this fan's point of view. Lost this evening to a better team, but it's a great result for the league overall.

Big budgets don't necessarily win you competitions.

Great performances and some great match-ups this season.

Still two matches to go and it could end up with an SA team winning the comp in only their third season of involvement. Or Ulster setting the benchmark for others to follow.



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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 12:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:SO what could they be doing RugbyFan? Seems like a decent option, what dragged you into the Prem over the URC? Advertising, TV deal something else?

If you mean why is the G Prem better than the URC, -Traditional rivalries, quality match ups, good kick off times, sensible salary cap, close games, better refereeing, no organisation owning multiple teams. I thought we had done this conversation at least 6 times.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 21 Jun 2022, 12:06 pm

I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams. It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 12:09 pm

Pot Hale wrote:I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.  

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams.   It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.  

The Welsh have won the thing 6 times and at no point was any rivalry generated. It's a dead league from a Welsh perspective.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 21 Jun 2022, 12:37 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.  

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams.   It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.  

The Welsh have won the thing 6 times and at no point was any rivalry generated. It's a dead league from a Welsh perspective.

Oh there was great interest and rivalry when Welsh teams were advancing to knockouts regularly, never mind winning it. Your lens is a somewhat distorted one through which everything about the league is negative or poor quality. I presume you were unhappy and disappointed when Scarlets actually won the title a few years ago since it gave sustenance to something that you regard as cheap and low-grade.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 12:54 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:SO what could they be doing RugbyFan? Seems like a decent option, what dragged you into the Prem over the URC? Advertising, TV deal something else?

If you mean why is the G Prem better than the URC, -Traditional rivalries, quality match ups, good kick off times, sensible salary cap, close games, better refereeing, no organisation owning multiple teams. I thought we had done this conversation at least 6 times.

No, not quite. I get that the English clubs outstrip the Welsh. I was asking what in particular made you start watching over the URC that say you didn't get from the French league for example. Was there a particular draw in how it was advertised, the fact you just liked BT sport, did you get the channel free initially through broadband etc.

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Post by Guest Tue 21 Jun 2022, 12:54 pm

Pot Hale wrote:I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.  

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams.   It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.  

Don't want to upset our Scottish friends...... but what relative success was that?! They had 10 wins each, same as the Ospreys. Yet the Ospreys have been told to do better and threatened with winding up!

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 21 Jun 2022, 12:57 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.  

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams.   It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.  

Don't want to upset our Scottish friends...... but what relative success was that?!  They had 10 wins each, same as the Ospreys.  Yet the Ospreys have been told to do better and threatened with winding up!

Qualified for knockouts and Champions Cup on their own merit.
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Post by Guest Tue 21 Jun 2022, 12:59 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.  

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams.   It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.  

Don't want to upset our Scottish friends...... but what relative success was that?!  They had 10 wins each, same as the Ospreys.  Yet the Ospreys have been told to do better and threatened with winding up!

Qualified for knockouts and Champions Cup on their own merit.  

Haha! OK. Nice dig!

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:00 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.  

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams.   It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.  

Don't want to upset our Scottish friends...... but what relative success was that?!  They had 10 wins each, same as the Ospreys.  Yet the Ospreys have been told to do better and threatened with winding up!

I'd say making the play-offs and doing better in Europe is relative success for them, as they're probably expecting to build on that. Let's be honest, that is much better than any Welsh region and we haven't even delved into results or points for/against yet. They won in SA, where-as Ospreys went down there and got drubbed by the Lions.... They also celebrated finsihing in the bottom half of the league, just to provide a bit of perspective. Talk about a fall from grace eh.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:08 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.  

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams.   It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.  

Don't want to upset our Scottish friends...... but what relative success was that?!  They had 10 wins each, same as the Ospreys.  Yet the Ospreys have been told to do better and threatened with winding up!

Qualified for knockouts and Champions Cup on their own merit.  

Haha!  OK.  Nice dig!

Sorry, Oracle, I didn’t intend it as a dig.  I meant it as them finishing in top 8 and give them something to build on.  The artificial qualification will only be in place for another season.  I reckon next season could turn out to be even more competitive with less Covid impacts, reduced budgets/squads, and I think 2 of the Welsh sides will be more competitive.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:SO what could they be doing RugbyFan? Seems like a decent option, what dragged you into the Prem over the URC? Advertising, TV deal something else?

If you mean why is the G Prem better than the URC, -Traditional rivalries, quality match ups, good kick off times, sensible salary cap, close games, better refereeing, no organisation owning multiple teams. I thought we had done this conversation at least 6 times.

No, not quite. I get that the English clubs outstrip the Welsh. I was asking what in particular made you start watching over the URC that say you didn't get from the French league for example. Was there a particular draw in how it was advertised, the fact you just liked BT sport, did you get the channel free initially through broadband etc.

Nothing to do with advertising. Just a better league to watch from my point of view. Top 14 is quite invisible here too tbh. Don't even know what channel it's on. I watch that illegally on the internet.

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Post by Guest Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:14 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.  

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams.   It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.  

Don't want to upset our Scottish friends...... but what relative success was that?!  They had 10 wins each, same as the Ospreys.  Yet the Ospreys have been told to do better and threatened with winding up!

Qualified for knockouts and Champions Cup on their own merit.  

Haha!  OK.  Nice dig!

Sorry, Oracle, I didn’t intend it as a dig.  I meant it as them finishing in top 8 and give them something to build on.  The artificial qualification will only be in place for another season.  I reckon next season could turn out to be even more competitive with less Covid impacts, reduced budgets/squads, and I think 2 of the Welsh sides will be more competitive.

Really?! The 'on their own merit' bit was telling!

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:15 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.  

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams.   It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.  

Don't want to upset our Scottish friends...... but what relative success was that?!  They had 10 wins each, same as the Ospreys.  Yet the Ospreys have been told to do better and threatened with winding up!

Qualified for knockouts and Champions Cup on their own merit.  

Haha!  OK.  Nice dig!

Sorry, Oracle, I didn’t intend it as a dig.  I meant it as them finishing in top 8 and give them something to build on.  The artificial qualification will only be in place for another season.  I reckon next season could turn out to be even more competitive with less Covid impacts, reduced budgets/squads, and I think 2 of the Welsh sides will be more competitive.

What aspects make you think the Welsh sides will be more competitive, when their playing budgets are decreasing and squads are getting trimmed?

The only possible semantically borderline way that would be true is Dragons and Cardiff not being as hopeless as they have just been.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:18 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:SO what could they be doing RugbyFan? Seems like a decent option, what dragged you into the Prem over the URC? Advertising, TV deal something else?

If you mean why is the G Prem better than the URC, -Traditional rivalries, quality match ups, good kick off times, sensible salary cap, close games, better refereeing, no organisation owning multiple teams. I thought we had done this conversation at least 6 times.

No, not quite. I get that the English clubs outstrip the Welsh. I was asking what in particular made you start watching over the URC that say you didn't get from the French league for example. Was there a particular draw in how it was advertised, the fact you just liked BT sport, did you get the channel free initially through broadband etc.

Nothing to do with advertising. Just a better league to watch from my point of view. Top 14 is quite invisible here too tbh. Don't even know what channel it's on. I watch that illegally on the internet.

Ah so even someone like you who now watches that far more than URC was almost by accident, no direct reach. Imagine how many they could attract if they really went after those disillusioned fans or ex fans of Welsh teams. That could properly be the death knell if they did it right. The PRL could then tap up the WRU to agree funding paid to the teams to release players ala the RFU. Starts to make a lot of sense and then you're left with the amateur teams for the guys who like a wander down ad hoc on a weekend.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Ah so even someone like you who now watches that far more than URC was almost by accident, no direct reach. Imagine how many they could attract if they really went after those disillusioned fans or ex fans of Welsh teams. That could properly be the death knell if they did it right. The PRL could then tap up the WRU to agree funding paid to the teams to release players ala the RFU. Starts to make a lot of sense and then you're left with the amateur teams for the guys who like a wander down ad hoc on a weekend.

thumbsup

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:28 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I do believe it is a deliberate policy based on a brief that the readership is not interested - particularly so when the final involved two SA teams.  

I suspect that the URC will continue to be popular in Ireland and SA as that is where the greatest rivalry already is between teams.   It's a pity that Welsh rugby has not got to that point yet. But perhaps next season will see a change in performances, and in consequence, greater interest from fans and media.

Scottish teams' fans will also build on their relative success this season.  

Don't want to upset our Scottish friends...... but what relative success was that?!  They had 10 wins each, same as the Ospreys.  Yet the Ospreys have been told to do better and threatened with winding up!

Qualified for knockouts and Champions Cup on their own merit.  

Haha!  OK.  Nice dig!

Sorry, Oracle, I didn’t intend it as a dig.  I meant it as them finishing in top 8 and give them something to build on.  The artificial qualification will only be in place for another season.  I reckon next season could turn out to be even more competitive with less Covid impacts, reduced budgets/squads, and I think 2 of the Welsh sides will be more competitive.

What aspects make you think the Welsh sides will be more competitive, when their playing  budgets are decreasing and squads are getting trimmed?

The only possible semantically borderline way that would be true is Dragons and Cardiff not being as hopeless as they have just been.

Because other teams also have had budgets and squads trimmed in quality or numbers. Covid impacted their performances/fixtures. Scarlets and Ospreys will do better in my view.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:30 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

Because other teams also have had budgets and squads trimmed in quality or numbers.  Covid impacted their performances/fixtures.  Scarlets and Ospreys will do better in my view.  

I mean, it was you yourself that posted these:

Scotland total - 14 out, 11 in (4 academy players)
Senior squad total: 85 incl test cap players - 51
Academy/development: 26
NSQ - 22

Wales Total - 43 out; 20 in (3 academy players)
Senior squad players - 181 - 86 test capped players
Academy players - 50
NWQ - 20

I'm not sure what metric you are going by to think that the Scarlets and Ospreys will fare better next season.

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Post by Guest Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:47 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Because other teams also have had budgets and squads trimmed in quality or numbers.  Covid impacted their performances/fixtures.  Scarlets and Ospreys will do better in my view.  

I mean, it was you yourself that posted these:

Scotland total  - 14 out, 11 in (4 academy players)
Senior squad total: 85 incl test cap players - 51
Academy/development: 26
NSQ - 22

Wales Total - 43 out; 20 in (3 academy players)
Senior squad players - 181 - 86 test capped players
Academy players - 50
NWQ - 20

I'm not sure what metric you are going by to think that the Scarlets and Ospreys will fare better next season.


Doesn't the above just show that the Scottish teams have fewer players, on average, than the Welsh regions? 42 average for the Scots; 45 average for the Welsh.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:52 pm

The Oracle wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Because other teams also have had budgets and squads trimmed in quality or numbers.  Covid impacted their performances/fixtures.  Scarlets and Ospreys will do better in my view.  

I mean, it was you yourself that posted these:

Scotland total  - 14 out, 11 in (4 academy players)
Senior squad total: 85 incl test cap players - 51
Academy/development: 26
NSQ - 22

Wales Total - 43 out; 20 in (3 academy players)
Senior squad players - 181 - 86 test capped players
Academy players - 50
NWQ - 20

I'm not sure what metric you are going by to think that the Scarlets and Ospreys will fare better next season.


Doesn't the above just show that the Scottish teams have fewer players, on average, than the Welsh regions?  42 average for the Scots; 45 average for the Welsh.

Relative to last season is what you have to look for or there's no context, as we are talking about improvement. Welsh teams are losing more on average per squad than the Scottish.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 1:58 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Doesn't it worry any of you though, that the regions are not keeping these players and they are being lured away by the "schools" in England ? Especially if the second tier clubs are attracting them, is it just another incident of mismanagement from our regions ?

Although this is probably for another thread. OK

Must have missed this at the time but just seen that Harri O'Connor has been picked for Wales' summer tour. Born in Northallerton and playing in Bath's youth team before a 'school' in Wales came in for him. He was back on load in the second tier though. Good luck to him and proof that Welsh teams can attract guys (or at least the 'schools' can). Perhaps we need to check the pulse of the regions after all.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 21 Jun 2022, 2:08 pm

I mean wow, O'Connor has played around 8 games, isn't first choice, and didn't set the world alight. I wonder what Pivac is thinking taking that type of player to SA?

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Post by Guest Tue 21 Jun 2022, 2:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Doesn't it worry any of you though, that the regions are not keeping these players and they are being lured away by the "schools" in England ? Especially if the second tier clubs are attracting them, is it just another incident of mismanagement from our regions ?

Although this is probably for another thread. OK

Must have missed this at the time but just seen that Harri O'Connor has been picked for Wales' summer tour. Born in Northallerton and playing in Bath's youth team before a 'school' in Wales came in for him.  He was back on load in the second tier though. Good luck to him and proof that Welsh teams can attract guys (or at least the 'schools' can). Perhaps we need to check the pulse of the regions after all.


Not sure a school came in for him. Sounds like he was signed to Scarlets academy in 2019. And then probably went to 6th form at Llandovery College to finish his schooling. Like Alun Wyn Jones did.

Great that Scarlets are able to entice WQ players here though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 2:45 pm

Yeah thats fair Oracle. It is that deliberate scouring through the Exiles programme rather than schools.

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Post by Guest Tue 21 Jun 2022, 2:52 pm

Same as everyone, really. OK

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 21 Jun 2022, 2:55 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Because other teams also have had budgets and squads trimmed in quality or numbers.  Covid impacted their performances/fixtures.  Scarlets and Ospreys will do better in my view.  

I mean, it was you yourself that posted these:

Scotland total  - 14 out, 11 in (4 academy players)
Senior squad total: 85 incl test cap players - 51
Academy/development: 26
NSQ - 22

Wales Total - 43 out; 20 in (3 academy players)
Senior squad players - 181 - 86 test capped players
Academy players - 50
NWQ - 20

I'm not sure what metric you are going by to think that the Scarlets and Ospreys will fare better next season.

Why only pick 2 Scottish teams?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 2:57 pm

The Oracle wrote:Same as everyone, really. OK

Well apart from where people do move to/for schools.

But it does also demonstrate that particularly around covid the money is not there for Premiership English clubs to keep the players they want too.

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Post by Guest Tue 21 Jun 2022, 2:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Same as everyone, really. OK

Well apart from where people do move to/for schools.

'Deliberate scouring', I meant. All nations seem to do it.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 3:05 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Because other teams also have had budgets and squads trimmed in quality or numbers.  Covid impacted their performances/fixtures.  Scarlets and Ospreys will do better in my view.  

I mean, it was you yourself that posted these:

Scotland total  - 14 out, 11 in (4 academy players)
Senior squad total: 85 incl test cap players - 51
Academy/development: 26
NSQ - 22

Wales Total - 43 out; 20 in (3 academy players)
Senior squad players - 181 - 86 test capped players
Academy players - 50
NWQ - 20

I'm not sure what metric you are going by to think that the Scarlets and Ospreys will fare better next season.

Why only pick 2 Scottish teams?  

Because they are the 2 teams directly above the highest Welsh team in the final table.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 21 Jun 2022, 3:16 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Because other teams also have had budgets and squads trimmed in quality or numbers.  Covid impacted their performances/fixtures.  Scarlets and Ospreys will do better in my view.  

I mean, it was you yourself that posted these:

Scotland total  - 14 out, 11 in (4 academy players)
Senior squad total: 85 incl test cap players - 51
Academy/development: 26
NSQ - 22

Wales Total - 43 out; 20 in (3 academy players)
Senior squad players - 181 - 86 test capped players
Academy players - 50
NWQ - 20

I'm not sure what metric you are going by to think that the Scarlets and Ospreys will fare better next season.

Why only pick 2 Scottish teams?  

Because they are the 2 teams directly above the highest Welsh team in the final table.

And?
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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 3:18 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Because other teams also have had budgets and squads trimmed in quality or numbers.  Covid impacted their performances/fixtures.  Scarlets and Ospreys will do better in my view.  

I mean, it was you yourself that posted these:

Scotland total  - 14 out, 11 in (4 academy players)
Senior squad total: 85 incl test cap players - 51
Academy/development: 26
NSQ - 22

Wales Total - 43 out; 20 in (3 academy players)
Senior squad players - 181 - 86 test capped players
Academy players - 50
NWQ - 20

I'm not sure what metric you are going by to think that the Scarlets and Ospreys will fare better next season.

Why only pick 2 Scottish teams?  

Because they are the 2 teams directly above the highest Welsh team in the final table.

And?

Aaaaand they are therefore the current barometer for improvement.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 3:21 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Same as everyone, really. OK

Well apart from where people do move to/for schools.

'Deliberate scouring', I meant.  All nations seem to do it.
Clubs in England vs Union elsewhere. I again advocate for the rfu to actually get their arses into gear and do this. And cap people ASAP.

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Post by Welshmushroom Tue 21 Jun 2022, 4:29 pm

Probably worth pointing out part of the reason welsh sides are trimming down is they simply don't need the numbers any longer.

Basically in a under performing season our sides only really are playing 20 games per year. 16 in the league and 4 in Europe. That basically removes the need to have squads of 60+.

You can see at the Dragons that they culled a lot of players and just improved the quality of the players brought in. Dai Young did mention Cardiff management should never have allowed the Covid 1 Year extensions because he has a bunch of players on his squad he probably doesn't want there and most of those are on pretty good money. Bit surprised that Ospreys re-signed as many of the people they did. I think Booth really missed a trick to really strengthen them in key areas which are costing them. Scarlets need a total overhaul at this point with at least 20+ players either past their prime or simply not up to the level of the league.

The real issue for Welsh sides is because development has been so poor the last 5 years the only way squads can now be improved is with overseas signings. That in turn makes the situation for the international game even worse.

At this stage they should just accept they need to develop players and quickly. Maybe if they go that way in 3-4 years we may start reaping the rewards and succeed at club level. I think we have to accept we won't be challenging the top sides for the next season or two.

One positive though is that the performances from a win ratio haven't been that bad. A couple more wins here and there and we would have had a couple of teams in the play offs. But we are quite far behind sides like the Stormers, Leinster, Ulster and the Bulls. I dont think we can hide from that.


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 21 Jun 2022, 5:08 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I tend to agree it should be at location of highest seed of the finalists.   Revenues from the final mostly go to URC central and they need funding to develop various parts of the comp including ref development, marketing/promotion, technology assistance, amongst other issues.   A full-house with best revenues is the ideal - it's a showcase event.

What was very noticeable was the marked lack of any reporting in UK print media on the final.  It seems to generate very little coverage year-in, year-out.  Even the Super Rugby final was covered, along with the Eng v Baa-baas match.   I don't know whether it's a deliberate editorial policy or simply deemed of no interest to fans in Wales, Scotland or England.   It did receive coverage in Irish print and online media outlets such as RTE, Irish Times, Irish Examiner, 42.ie, etc.  Perhaps others saw some in UK media that I didn't pick-up.   BBC did do a piece on its website, but beyond that, didn't see anything.

I can't speak for Scotland or NI as I simply do not know, but from a Wales perspective the print media has always been very Anglo-centric.  Or rather, the big print media (Times, Guardian, Independent, Telegraph, Daily Mail, Express, etc) is printed and sold across England and Wales (possibly Scotland and NI too?) and doesn't really have any regional versions.  They just sell the same newspaper here.  So the content is produced for the readership.  As England has about 17 times the population of Wales the content tends mainly to be about English things, and as England teams are not in the URC I guess there is less inclination to cover it?  Not a complaint, just an observation.  We only have 1 national newspaper in Wales (the Western Mail, i.e. Wales Online) - I believe they covered it, at least the online version did.  And then after that we just have local newspapers such as the South Wales Argus.  But yes, UK (or at least, English/Welsh) print media is written for the English, mainly.

Before the league went to PPV on a total alien channel that nobody knew anything about, BBC Wales used to advertise their games for the league quite often. Especially the Friday night games, but now it doesn't. S4C used to advertise a lot as well.

It's probably because the games are now played at sporadic times, and nobody can get their head around the fixture list. Also, it will probably take a long time to build the interest back up in Wales that has been lost due to the fact the league was put on PS and we lost thousands of casual fans. I said at the time, that putting the league behind a paywall in Wales was a mistake, and I was tarred and feathered on here for it. But hey ho. thumbsup

Add to the fact that most of the interesting fixtures are not on free to view TV then that is what you are left with, a league that not many people in Wales care about unfortunately.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 5:53 pm

The games aren't pay per view.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 21 Jun 2022, 6:14 pm

Is the URC on any cable tv channel back home (UK plus Ire)?  Or is it only on the woefully inadequate URC web site.  If the stakeholders really want this thing to fly, they have to get it on cable tv, or better yet (though unlikely) free to the air tv.  And, I agree, games at regular times so people can come in from work or from slaving in the garden and put a game on.

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Post by neilthom7 Tue 21 Jun 2022, 7:57 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Is the URC on any cable tv channel back home (UK plus Ire)?  Or is it only on the woefully inadequate URC web site.  If the stakeholders really want this thing to fly, they have to get it on cable tv, or better yet (though unlikely) free to the air tv.  And, I agree, games at regular times so people can come in from work or from slaving in the garden and put a game on.

Every game is on Premier Sports in UK and Ireland.  As well as that there are games also on BBC Wales, S4C, TG4, RTE and BBCI NI as well. As for the times, that was explained by the URC as being dictated by the tv companies and I believe they pretty much put a lot of blame on the free tv companies for that.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 21 Jun 2022, 8:20 pm

neilthom7 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Is the URC on any cable tv channel back home (UK plus Ire)?  Or is it only on the woefully inadequate URC web site.  If the stakeholders really want this thing to fly, they have to get it on cable tv, or better yet (though unlikely) free to the air tv.  And, I agree, games at regular times so people can come in from work or from slaving in the garden and put a game on.

Every game is on Premier Sports in UK and Ireland.  As well as that there are games also on BBC Wales, S4C, TG4, RTE and BBCI NI as well. As for the times, that was explained by the URC as being dictated by the tv companies and I believe they pretty much put a lot of blame on the free tv companies for that.

The match times and preponderance on Sat evenings is exaggerated. I'm sure they'll look at it again for next season, but really some fans just look for an excuse that they can't be arsed to watch the matches.
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Post by RiscaGame Tue 21 Jun 2022, 10:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The games aren't pay per view.

You’re too late on the bingo. I called house on tarred and feathered.

I’m genuinely intrigued what adverts there were on the BBC, before it was on Premier. Keeping in mind, BBC don’t run adverts, so apparently they’re going to use their little time between progs on building up a game. Internationals probably, but not pro 12 games quite often. I would imagine they would quickly show trailers for prime time shows instead. Scrum V live is painted as this all singing, all dancing show by some (one), but I don’t remember it as that. Funny that. It’s amazing how people will romanticise something to try and prove their point. Scrum V is still the same as it always was. It starts broadcasting around 5 minutes before kick off and cuts off more or less at full time. Let’s not big it up to be something it wasn’t. It was a show with the same commentators that only certain people like (Charlo and Jiffy) and if Scrum V live had such success with their advertising before, then surely they would do it again? Especially now when the league is apparently such a hard sell and we need to get the casual armchair fan back, who offers so much to the game that they demand free to air tv, particularly in their Thai restaurant.


Last edited by RiscaGame on Tue 21 Jun 2022, 11:15 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 21 Jun 2022, 10:41 pm

And before the obvious circular discussion starts, no I don’t think we should be targeting idiots who insist on getting something for nothing.

The future of Welsh rugby support lies with engaging the future, not dinosaurs of the past. Dai, 40, from South Wales who has never supported a Welsh pro team isn’t going to suddenly bother his arris, because he’s watched Dragons (or A N Other) v whoever on Chum V live. He might get interested, if he’s invited to a game via an initiative like bring a friend and sees the buzz of a stadium, but that’s it. You don’t get feelings for something from a crappy tv broadcast, where at least one commentator sounds like he can’t be arsed being there.

Children forming guards of honour and being involved in dragons or whoever chants early are the future. Chucking rugby on FTA isn’t going to boom interest in the league. If it did, the predictions of the Welsh Prem stealing a march on the Welsh pro teams would’ve come true. Plenty of people were criticising the league before it moved to premier. Nowadays premier offers a lot for a rugby fan (top 14) and it offers other sports to watch too. Now the league is a nightmare for fixtures again, because it has to satisfy multiple broadcasters again. Your casual Welsh rugby watcher won’t acknowledge that, because they’re not affected by things like when they can go watch their team and when can they book travel etc.

Like I said, same circular rubbish discussions, with no substance. It’s almost worth locking every thread as soon as certain people post on them.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 21 Jun 2022, 11:22 pm

RiscaGame wrote:And before the obvious circular discussion starts, no I don’t think we should be targeting idiots who insist on getting something for nothing.

The future of Welsh rugby support lies with engaging the future, not dinosaurs of the past. Dai, 40, from South Wales who has never supported a Welsh pro team isn’t going to suddenly bother his arris, because he’s watched Dragons (or A N Other) v whoever on Chum V live. He might get interested, if he’s invited to a game via an initiative like bring a friend and sees the buzz of a stadium, but that’s it. You don’t get feelings for something from a crappy tv broadcast, where at least one commentator sounds like he can’t be arsed being there.

Children forming guards of honour and being involved in dragons or whoever chants early are the future. Chucking rugby on FTA isn’t going to boom interest in the league. If it did, the predictions of the Welsh Prem stealing a march on the Welsh pro teams would’ve come true. Plenty of people were criticising the league before it moved to premier. Nowadays premier offers a lot for a rugby fan (top 14) and it offers other sports to watch too. Now the league is a nightmare for fixtures again, because it has to satisfy multiple broadcasters again. Your casual Welsh rugby watcher won’t acknowledge that, because they’re not affected by things like when they can go watch their team and when can they book travel etc.

Like I said, same circular rubbish discussions, with no substance. It’s almost worth locking every thread as soon as certain people post on them.

Don't hold back there, Risca.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 9:38 am

How many evening home kick offs did the South African teams get given? (7pm or later?)

My team got 55% of their home games at 7pm or later (and on different days of the week too) I was unable to go to any of them as I have a young family. Not good value for my season ticket.

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Post by Guest Wed 22 Jun 2022, 9:51 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:How many evening home kick offs did the South African teams get given? (7pm or later?)

My team got 55% of their home games at 7pm or later (and on different days of the week too) I was unable to go to any of them as I have a young family. Not good value for my season ticket.

RugbyFan, I understand your frustration. But the problem is we can't satisfy everyone. It's impossible. I think all that can be asked is for some sort of relative consistency in timings so that those fans who can make it can at least get into some sort of routine. Can't be the same every week, but the majority of games at a certain day and time would help I think. E.g. 75% of games at 5pm on a Saturday, or whatever. Where they are moving all around the place - Thursday night, Saturday day, Saturday night, Sunday at 5, Friday night, etc. - it's hard to develop that routine and habit.

In your circumstances, I appreciate it's hard. But for every fan that can't make 7pm or later there will be fans who would actually prefer that time. We've heard all of the arguments on here before - late games do not suit those with kids or those who travel long distances; early games on Fridays do not suit those who travel long distances either, and those who can't get out of work before 5; early games on Saturday do not suit those who play rugby themselves or those who watch local club rugby (so can't do club and regional); Sunday games have been criticised as people can't get on the sesh and there is no atmopsher (!). So the league can try yo satisfy you, RugbyFan100, but another poster will come on to complain that your time doesn't suit them. So how do we square that?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 10:05 am

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan, I understand your frustration.  But the problem is we can't satisfy everyone.  It's impossible.

No, they just satisfy some of the teams. Like Ulster who have a routinely similar time for most of their home fixtures.

In your circumstances, I appreciate it's hard.  But for every fan that can't make 7pm or later there will be fans who would actually prefer that time.

I really do believe that more people dislike a Saturday night kick off than like it. I get that Saturday night is the s4c slot. But this is just another in the long list of reasons why this is an unsellable and unworkable league for us. How many English premiership games does the Gallagher premiership have at 7.45pm on a Saturday night?

 
We've heard all of the arguments on here before - late games do not suit those with kids or those who travel long distances; early games on Fridays do not suit those who travel long distances either, and those who can't get out of work before 5; early games on Saturday do not suit those who play rugby themselves or those who watch local club rugby (so can't do club and regional); Sunday games have been criticised as people can't get on the sesh and there is no atmopsher (!).  So the league can try yo satisfy you, RugbyFan100, but another poster will come on to complain that your time doesn't suit them.  So how do we square that?

You square it by agreeing it's a pathetic. unworkable competition which we need to get out of asap.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 10:19 am

A couple of points there; aren't the media outlets simply catering for their viewership?
As long as people are buying the tv channels, buying a season ticket is there real pressure if those people only see 8 games a season?
You've said yourself there is no alternative; although you could implement LD's idea on a Welsh league ticking all the boxes you have here quite quickly.

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Post by Oakdene Wed 22 Jun 2022, 11:08 am

The Oracle wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:How many evening home kick offs did the South African teams get given? (7pm or later?)

My team got 55% of their home games at 7pm or later (and on different days of the week too) I was unable to go to any of them as I have a young family. Not good value for my season ticket.

RugbyFan, I understand your frustration.  But the problem is we can't satisfy everyone.  It's impossible.  I think all that can be asked is for some sort of relative consistency in timings so that those fans who can make it can at least get into some sort of routine.  Can't be the same every week, but the majority of games at a certain day and time would help I think.  E.g. 75% of games at 5pm on a Saturday, or whatever.  Where they are moving all around the place - Thursday night, Saturday day, Saturday night, Sunday at 5, Friday night, etc. - it's hard to develop that routine and habit.

In your circumstances, I appreciate it's hard.  But for every fan that can't make 7pm or later there will be fans who would actually prefer that time.  We've heard all of the arguments on here before - late games do not suit those with kids or those who travel long distances; early games on Fridays do not suit those who travel long distances either, and those who can't get out of work before 5; early games on Saturday do not suit those who play rugby themselves or those who watch local club rugby (so can't do club and regional); Sunday games have been criticised as people can't get on the sesh and there is no atmopsher (!).  So the league can try yo satisfy you, RugbyFan100, but another poster will come on to complain that your time doesn't suit them.  So how do we square that?

As long as Ulster are looked after for their 7pm Friday home games......

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 11:21 am

Oakdene wrote:

As long as Ulster are looked after for their 7pm Friday home games......

The other clubs just accept it. They have no backbone. Imagine Stade Francais had a little special slot at 5pm on Saturdays in the Top14 whilst all the others had fixtures all over the place...do you think Toulon and the rest would just accept it? Of course that wouldn't happen as the T14 is competent league.

Anybody able to answer the question on how many evening home fixtures the South African sides had?

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Post by Old Man Wed 22 Jun 2022, 11:37 am

Most matches in SA was played at 2pm and 4 pm local time. When the SA teams hosted 4 teams from Europe the matches were mostly at 3pm and 6 pm, with some at 5 pm local time.

The final was at 7:30 pm local time

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 12:03 pm

Old Man wrote:Most matches in SA was played at 2pm and 4 pm local time. When the SA teams hosted 4 teams from Europe the matches were mostly at 3pm and 6 pm, with some at 5 pm local time.

The final was at 7:30 pm local time

So not a single regular season home match at 7pm or after? And some people just want to brush this aside and label it an "excuse" ?

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Post by Old Man Wed 22 Jun 2022, 12:17 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Old Man wrote:Most matches in SA was played at 2pm and 4 pm local time. When the SA teams hosted 4 teams from Europe the matches were mostly at 3pm and 6 pm, with some at 5 pm local time.

The final was at 7:30 pm local time

So not a single regular season home match at 7pm or after? And some people just want to brush this aside and label it an "excuse" ?

To befair I don't think it is an issue here, yes evening matches can be nice, but our culture of braai and socialising around the fire and watching rugby is tradition on a Saturday afternoon. For those going to the stadium it is perhaps an issue, but whether it is a big issue I haven't heard any complaints.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 22 Jun 2022, 12:17 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Oakdene wrote:

As long as Ulster are looked after for their 7pm Friday home games......

The other clubs just accept it. They have no backbone. Imagine Stade Francais had a little special slot at 5pm on Saturdays in the Top14 whilst all the others had fixtures all over the place...do you think Toulon and the rest would just accept it? Of course that wouldn't happen as the T14 is competent league.

Anybody able to answer the question on how many evening home fixtures the South African sides had?
Given that we have finally accepted that TV dictate kick off times; In order to fix it, the league would have to go out and get brand new TV deals would it not?

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