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URC=Better League

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neilthom7
RiscaGame
mikey_dragon
LeinsterFan4life
RugbyFan100
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No 7&1/2
Oakdene
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The Oracle
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Pot Hale
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Post by Pot Hale Sat 11 Jun 2022, 1:01 am

First topic message reminder :

Been a great season from this fan's point of view. Lost this evening to a better team, but it's a great result for the league overall.

Big budgets don't necessarily win you competitions.

Great performances and some great match-ups this season.

Still two matches to go and it could end up with an SA team winning the comp in only their third season of involvement. Or Ulster setting the benchmark for others to follow.



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Post by Old Man Wed 22 Jun 2022, 1:17 pm

The 2pm matches it must be said is a bit early though.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 2:48 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Oakdene wrote:

As long as Ulster are looked after for their 7pm Friday home games......

The other clubs just accept it. They have no backbone. Imagine Stade Francais had a little special slot at 5pm on Saturdays in the Top14 whilst all the others had fixtures all over the place...do you think Toulon and the rest would just accept it? Of course that wouldn't happen as the T14 is competent league.

Anybody able to answer the question on how many evening home fixtures the South African sides had?
Given that we have finally accepted that TV dictate kick off times; In order to fix it, the league would have to go out and get brand new TV deals would it not?

As I've said, the 'league' is such an awful, out of control monstrosity, it is unfixable. There are far too many teams in it spread across too many places for any tv deal to make it work

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Post by Old Man Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:02 pm

Rugbyfan, I can see you have made up your mind about the URC. My counter to that is there is a finite amount of money to work with, at the end of the day the URC tries to break at least even and provide a proffessional tournament for the participating countries.

None of these nations can afford to retain their players without it, even as things stand we cannot afford to keep our home grown players when compared to other leagues, especially the Top14 and Japanese top 14.

I wouldlove the Currie Cup to be our premier comp, but that would mean a salary cap at least double of what our top 4 franchises have, and spread to 14 provinces, thus the total salaries spent on SA pro teams will need to increase from the current R340 million to R1,680 billion.

There is no way that can be done.

So we are in bed with the Celtic Nations and Italy out of necessity. Whether we want to see it as a negative or positive is up to each rugby loving individual in South Africa.

We choose to see it mainly as a positive, as we rather embrace waht can hopefully become stronger and bring in more revenue over thenext decade and beyond, as apposed to being negative about it.

I also doubt many are as negative about this league as you are.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:09 pm

Old Man wrote:Rugbyfan, I can see you have made up your mind about the URC. My counter to that is there is a finite amount of money to work with, at the end of the day the URC tries to break at least even and provide a proffessional tournament for the participating countries.

No idea what this means sorry. How does the "URC try to break even" ? There is surely a finite amount of money to work with in every sport, league, team. Money doesn't grow on trees.

None of these nations can afford to retain their players without it, even as things stand we cannot afford to keep our home grown players when compared to other leagues, especially the Top14 and Japanese top 14.

English league seems fine.

I wouldlove the Currie Cup to be our premier comp, but that would mean a salary cap at least double of what our top 4 franchises have, and spread to 14 provinces, thus the total salaries spent on SA pro teams will need to increase from the current R340 million to R1,680 billion.

There is no way that can be done.

So we are in bed with the Celtic Nations and Italy out of necessity. Whether we want to see it as a negative or positive is up to each rugby loving individual in South Africa.

We choose to see it mainly as a positive, as we rather embrace waht can hopefully become stronger and bring in more revenue over thenext decade and beyond, as apposed to being negative about it.

I also doubt many are as negative about this league as you are.

Nobody is doubting that South Africans like it. They've been handed a competition on a plate. Of course they like it.

The problem I have is when people say "stop moaning and learn to like what you've got"..........You'd never say that in other walks of life. What we've got is killing us. We'll be even worse next year, same the year after that, until the teams we've supported for years just wither and die. But yeah I'll just pretend none of that is happening and smile instead is it?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:14 pm

Stop paying for a season ticket for a team you barely watch and buy one for Bristol. You really don't sound like you enjoy watching the Scarlets anyway. And sport is about enjoyment.

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Post by The Oracle Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop paying for a season ticket for a team you barely watch and buy one for Bristol. You really don't sound like you enjoy watching the Scarlets anyway. And sport is about enjoyment.

Really? This Dragons and Aston Villa fan is inclined to disagree Sad
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:21 pm

Yeah. As a Middlesbrough and England fan I hesitated over the sentence.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:26 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Old Man wrote:Rugbyfan, I can see you have made up your mind about the URC. My counter to that is there is a finite amount of money to work with, at the end of the day the URC tries to break at least even and provide a proffessional tournament for the participating countries.

No idea what this means sorry. How does the "URC try to break even" ? There is surely a finite amount of money to work with in every sport, league, team. Money doesn't grow on trees.

None of these nations can afford to retain their players without it, even as things stand we cannot afford to keep our home grown players when compared to other leagues, especially the Top14 and Japanese top 14.

English league seems fine.

I wouldlove the Currie Cup to be our premier comp, but that would mean a salary cap at least double of what our top 4 franchises have, and spread to 14 provinces, thus the total salaries spent on SA pro teams will need to increase from the current R340 million to R1,680 billion.

There is no way that can be done.

So we are in bed with the Celtic Nations and Italy out of necessity. Whether we want to see it as a negative or positive is up to each rugby loving individual in South Africa.

We choose to see it mainly as a positive, as we rather embrace waht can hopefully become stronger and bring in more revenue over thenext decade and beyond, as apposed to being negative about it.

I also doubt many are as negative about this league as you are.

Nobody is doubting that South Africans like it. They've been handed a competition on a plate. Of course they like it.

The problem I have is when people say "stop moaning and learn to like what you've got"..........You'd never say that in other walks of life. What we've got is killing us. We'll be even worse next year, same the year after that, until the teams we've supported for years just wither and die. But yeah I'll just pretend none of that is happening and smile instead is it?
The English league is fine in the sense it's just about keeping going. Almost half the teams can't get average attendances of over 10k, everyone bar Exeter are in crippling debt (hence the almost comically low salary cap for next year). Every week there is a new article about how screwed an historically massive club like Wasps are. They've got huge issues over there, like most leagues.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop paying for a season ticket for a team you barely watch and buy one for Bristol. You really don't sound like you enjoy watching the Scarlets anyway. And sport is about enjoyment.

Other family members get my season ticket when I don't go. It doesn't go unused. I don't support bristol. I didn't grow up near bristol. I don't want to watch rugby in bristol. I don't want to travel to bristol.

PS - Please don't tell me what to do again.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:31 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
The English league is fine in the sense it's just about keeping going. Almost half the teams can't get average attendances of over 10k, everyone bar Exeter are in crippling debt (hence the almost comically low salary cap for next year). Every week there is a new article about how screwed an historically massive club like Wasps are. They've got huge issues over there, like most leagues.

Have Exeter cleared their £12m debts then? Most pro sports teams incur huge debts. You have been told this time and time again.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:33 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop paying for a season ticket for a team you barely watch and buy one for Bristol. You really don't sound like you enjoy watching the Scarlets anyway. And sport is about enjoyment.

Other family members get my season ticket when I don't go. It doesn't go unused. I don't support bristol. I didn't grow up near bristol. I don't want to watch rugby in bristol. I don't want to travel to bristol.

PS -  Please don't tell me what to do again.

But Bristol, I think will be your nearest club in the league you prefer to watch. People can have more than 1 team after all, know loads of people who support the likes of Mansfield and Chelsea for instance. And it's fine for travel from Wales surely? The rest of your family could get tickets of their own and boost a team they presumably do enjoy watching.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop paying for a season ticket for a team you barely watch and buy one for Bristol. You really don't sound like you enjoy watching the Scarlets anyway. And sport is about enjoyment.

Other family members get my season ticket when I don't go. It doesn't go unused. I don't support bristol. I didn't grow up near bristol. I don't want to watch rugby in bristol. I don't want to travel to bristol.

PS -  Please don't tell me what to do again.

But Bristol, I think will be your nearest club in the league you prefer to watch. People can have more than 1 team after all, know loads of people who support the likes of Mansfield and Chelsea for instance. And it's fine for travel from Wales surely? The rest of your family could get tickets of their own and boost a team they presumably do enjoy watching.

Can't afford both sorry.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:39 pm

Stop being mean to the others then and forego your own season ticket and get them their own! You're torturing yourself for no reason. That way you can sit back with your feet up and watch the English and French to your hearts content. You'll be much happier.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop being mean to the others then and forego your own season ticket and get them their own! You're torturing yourself for no reason. That way you can sit back with your feet up and watch the English and French to your hearts content. You'll be much happier.

Stop telling me what to do. Bully.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:42 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
The English league is fine in the sense it's just about keeping going. Almost half the teams can't get average attendances of over 10k, everyone bar Exeter are in crippling debt (hence the almost comically low salary cap for next year). Every week there is a new article about how screwed an historically massive club like Wasps are. They've got huge issues over there, like most leagues.

Have Exeter cleared their £12m debts then? Most pro sports teams incur huge debts. You have been told this time and time again.
I've never been told that on here? But anyway its most certainly not "most pro sports teams", maybe you meant in most of the major leagues? As there are any amount of pro leagues and teams that are much smaller in scale, in a variety of sports that live within their means.

The teams that can and do incur huge debts have massive assets behind them (large TV deal, stadium, hotels, casinos like in the NRL etc) which they can take out loans against or wealthy backers to take the hit. This is certainly not the case for most of the prem sides. If it wasn't a problem they wouldn't be dropping the salary cap so dramatically for next season.


Last edited by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:44 pm

Looking out for your mental health. You seem intent on harming yourself! You've got to admit it would be a relief to get the enjoyment out of seeing people enjoy the gift you'd be giving them while sneakily it just means you've got far more time to watch a couple of better products (in your eyes). Shame you can't get to Bristol, even when they're poor the games are highly entertaining.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:46 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
The English league is fine in the sense it's just about keeping going. Almost half the teams can't get average attendances of over 10k, everyone bar Exeter are in crippling debt (hence the almost comically low salary cap for next year). Every week there is a new article about how screwed an historically massive club like Wasps are. They've got huge issues over there, like most leagues.

Have Exeter cleared their £12m debts then? Most pro sports teams incur huge debts. You have been told this time and time again.
I've never been told that on here? But anyway its most certainly not "most pro sports teams", maybe you meant in most of the major leagues? As there are any amount of pro leagues and teams that are much smaller in scale, in a variety of sports that live within their means.

The teams that can and do incur huge debts have massive assets behind them (large TV deal, stadium, hotels, casinos like in the NRL etc) which they can take out loads against or wealthy backers to take the hit. This is certainly not the case for most of the prem sides. If it wasn't a problem they wouldn't be dropping the salary cap so dramatically for next season.

It's an issue from covid certainly. After next season I believe the plan is to raise it back above the previous level (which will please a few including Saracens and Leicester).

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:52 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The teams that can and do incur huge debts have massive assets behind them (large TV deal, stadium, hotels, casinos like in the NRL etc) which they can take out loans against or wealthy backers to take the hit. This is certainly not the case for most of the prem sides. If it wasn't a problem they wouldn't be dropping the salary cap so dramatically for next season.

Ulster, Connacht and Munster are in HUGE amounts of debt. They haven't made profits in years. To a lesser extent Ulster. Their sugar daddy is a Union though. So they don't get hit with the same stick. They just reap the benefits of the game in their country as a whole. This is absolutely no different to the English sides. The rich owner is just a different entity.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Jun 2022, 4:08 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Is the URC on any cable tv channel back home (UK plus Ire)?  Or is it only on the woefully inadequate URC web site.  If the stakeholders really want this thing to fly, they have to get it on cable tv, or better yet (though unlikely) free to the air tv.  And, I agree, games at regular times so people can come in from work or from slaving in the garden and put a game on.

Every game is on Premier Sports in UK and Ireland.  As well as that there are games also on BBC Wales, S4C, TG4, RTE and BBCI NI as well. As for the times, that was explained by the URC as being dictated by the tv companies and I believe they pretty much put a lot of blame on the free tv companies for that.

The match times and preponderance on Sat evenings is exaggerated.   I'm sure they'll look at it again for next season, but really some fans just look for an excuse that they can't be arsed to watch the matches.  

Quite the sweeping statement when you do not have one iota of a clue what goes on in other countries. OK

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Jun 2022, 4:09 pm

RiscaGame wrote:And before the obvious circular discussion starts, no I don’t think we should be targeting idiots who insist on getting something for nothing.

The future of Welsh rugby support lies with engaging the future, not dinosaurs of the past. Dai, 40, from South Wales who has never supported a Welsh pro team isn’t going to suddenly bother his arris, because he’s watched Dragons (or A N Other) v whoever on Chum V live. He might get interested, if he’s invited to a game via an initiative like bring a friend and sees the buzz of a stadium, but that’s it. You don’t get feelings for something from a crappy tv broadcast, where at least one commentator sounds like he can’t be arsed being there.

Children forming guards of honour and being involved in dragons or whoever chants early are the future. Chucking rugby on FTA isn’t going to boom interest in the league. If it did, the predictions of the Welsh Prem stealing a march on the Welsh pro teams would’ve come true. Plenty of people were criticising the league before it moved to premier. Nowadays premier offers a lot for a rugby fan (top 14) and it offers other sports to watch too. Now the league is a nightmare for fixtures again, because it has to satisfy multiple broadcasters again. Your casual Welsh rugby watcher won’t acknowledge that, because they’re not affected by things like when they can go watch their team and when can they book travel etc.

Like I said, same circular rubbish discussions, with no substance. It’s almost worth locking every thread as soon as certain people post on them.

What a classy post.

Just lock the thread if you feel that way.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 22 Jun 2022, 4:13 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The teams that can and do incur huge debts have massive assets behind them (large TV deal, stadium, hotels, casinos like in the NRL etc) which they can take out loans against or wealthy backers to take the hit. This is certainly not the case for most of the prem sides. If it wasn't a problem they wouldn't be dropping the salary cap so dramatically for next season.

Ulster, Connacht and Munster are in HUGE amounts of debt. They haven't made profits in years. To a lesser extent Ulster. Their sugar daddy is a Union though. So they don't get hit with the same stick. They just reap the benefits of the game in their country as a whole. This is absolutely no different to the English sides. The rich owner is just a different entity.
The league is unworkable as you say so the provinces don't matter, we're talking about the prem which according to you is "fine".

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 4:19 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The teams that can and do incur huge debts have massive assets behind them (large TV deal, stadium, hotels, casinos like in the NRL etc) which they can take out loans against or wealthy backers to take the hit. This is certainly not the case for most of the prem sides. If it wasn't a problem they wouldn't be dropping the salary cap so dramatically for next season.

Ulster, Connacht and Munster are in HUGE amounts of debt. They haven't made profits in years. To a lesser extent Ulster. Their sugar daddy is a Union though. So they don't get hit with the same stick. They just reap the benefits of the game in their country as a whole. This is absolutely no different to the English sides. The rich owner is just a different entity.
The league is unworkable as you say so the provinces don't matter, we're talking about the prem which according to you is "fine".

It's not just fine, it's thriving. Moving salary caps down isn't necessarily a sign of less spending power. They could have moved it up when Saracens were prepared to spend bucketfulls of cash. Finding the right point across all teams is key.

Imagine Saracens had a stadium refurbishment bought for them, then found out they could not repay the ££ back because their crowds were too low which were effecting income streams so much. Imagine the uproar in the rugby community that would have ensued.

That's what happened at Munster, But no, as always it's the English that are the problem eh?

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Jun 2022, 4:20 pm

The URC could be one heck of a league, but people need to recognise the issues with it, and agree they need fixing. The URC is not a as good as people would like to make you think, but in saying that, what league is ?

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Jun 2022, 4:21 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The teams that can and do incur huge debts have massive assets behind them (large TV deal, stadium, hotels, casinos like in the NRL etc) which they can take out loans against or wealthy backers to take the hit. This is certainly not the case for most of the prem sides. If it wasn't a problem they wouldn't be dropping the salary cap so dramatically for next season.

Ulster, Connacht and Munster are in HUGE amounts of debt. They haven't made profits in years. To a lesser extent Ulster. Their sugar daddy is a Union though. So they don't get hit with the same stick. They just reap the benefits of the game in their country as a whole. This is absolutely no different to the English sides. The rich owner is just a different entity.
The league is unworkable as you say so the provinces don't matter, we're talking about the prem which according to you is "fine".

It's not just fine, it's thriving. Moving salary caps down isn't necessarily a sign of less spending power. They could have moved it up when Saracens were prepared to spend bucketfulls of cash. Finding the right point across all teams is key.

Imagine Saracens had a stadium refurbishment bought for them, then found out they could not repay the ££ back because their crowds were too low which were effecting income streams so much. Imagine the uproar in the rugby community that would have ensued.

That's what happened at Munster, But no, as always it's the English that are the problem eh?

For once I agree with you, there are double standards, especially on here.

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Post by The Oracle Wed 22 Jun 2022, 4:24 pm

What would fix it for you, LD? Top 3 things?
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Jun 2022, 4:42 pm

The Oracle wrote:What would fix it for you, LD?  Top 3 things?

Top 3, in no particular order:-

1. Salary cap.
2. Better kick off times. More even spread of who plays at what times.
3. Better standard of officials. More officials from more countries.

Look I know I am reaching here, but whether we like it or not, we need get more people like Dai 40 from South Wales watching the league. We need the casual fans, because you never know, if Dai 40 from South Wales watches a game, like we had this season between Ospreys and Scarlets, which was a humdinger, and really likes it, he could tell his mates who could then pass the message on, and then all of a sudden you have a few more people thinking rugby is cool again in Wales. We need to get the rugby buzz back.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Jun 2022, 4:45 pm

Oh and just to add, you could probably put this in instead of point 2.

GET RID OF THE STUPID CONFERENCE FIXTURES NONSENSE.

Everybody play each other home and away and be done with it, if it means two leagues, with relegation and promotion, then so be it.

People need to know what they are following.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 5:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
1. Salary cap.

There will never be a salary cap in this 'league'. Not one that is similar to elsewhere anyway. What we may have is a cap on spending as a ratio of turnover. As in you can only spend up to 60% of your turnover on player salaries or something. This will of course only benefit teams with big turnovers, and due to huge lack of transparency in some of the teams in this league's finance, it may even be the same of all an owners teams i.e. - same rulkes for the irish 4 as they have the same owner, same rules for the scottish 2 as they have the same owner etc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 5:17 pm

Salary caps and transparency aren't exactly great in England though; no surprise who finished in the top 2.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Jun 2022, 5:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Salary caps and transparency aren't exactly great in England though; no surprise who finished in the top 2.

But teams are punished if they break it. Thats the barometer.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 5:21 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Salary caps and transparency aren't exactly great in England though; no surprise who finished in the top 2.

But teams are punished if they break it. Thats the barometer.

Maybe years later, but the transparency isn't there and with the main 2 finishing there you've got to doubt it's impacted them too hard.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 22 Jun 2022, 6:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Is the URC on any cable tv channel back home (UK plus Ire)?  Or is it only on the woefully inadequate URC web site.  If the stakeholders really want this thing to fly, they have to get it on cable tv, or better yet (though unlikely) free to the air tv.  And, I agree, games at regular times so people can come in from work or from slaving in the garden and put a game on.

Every game is on Premier Sports in UK and Ireland.  As well as that there are games also on BBC Wales, S4C, TG4, RTE and BBCI NI as well. As for the times, that was explained by the URC as being dictated by the tv companies and I believe they pretty much put a lot of blame on the free tv companies for that.

The match times and preponderance on Sat evenings is exaggerated.   I'm sure they'll look at it again for next season, but really some fans just look for an excuse that they can't be arsed to watch the matches.  

Quite the sweeping statement when you do not have one iota of a clue what goes on in other countries.  OK

Given that I qualified it as "some fans", it's not really a sweeping statement. And I do have a clue what goes on in other countries. Through listening and talking. It's what we try to do here.
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Post by Pot Hale Wed 22 Jun 2022, 6:44 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The teams that can and do incur huge debts have massive assets behind them (large TV deal, stadium, hotels, casinos like in the NRL etc) which they can take out loans against or wealthy backers to take the hit. This is certainly not the case for most of the prem sides. If it wasn't a problem they wouldn't be dropping the salary cap so dramatically for next season.

Ulster, Connacht and Munster are in HUGE amounts of debt. They haven't made profits in years. To a lesser extent Ulster. Their sugar daddy is a Union though. So they don't get hit with the same stick. They just reap the benefits of the game in their country as a whole. This is absolutely no different to the English sides. The rich owner is just a different entity.

It's well-known that Munster are in a difficult place. What informs you that Connacht and Ulster are in the same position of being HUGE amounts in debt?
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 22 Jun 2022, 8:53 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The teams that can and do incur huge debts have massive assets behind them (large TV deal, stadium, hotels, casinos like in the NRL etc) which they can take out loans against or wealthy backers to take the hit. This is certainly not the case for most of the prem sides. If it wasn't a problem they wouldn't be dropping the salary cap so dramatically for next season.

Ulster, Connacht and Munster are in HUGE amounts of debt. They haven't made profits in years. To a lesser extent Ulster. Their sugar daddy is a Union though. So they don't get hit with the same stick. They just reap the benefits of the game in their country as a whole. This is absolutely no different to the English sides. The rich owner is just a different entity.
The league is unworkable as you say so the provinces don't matter, we're talking about the prem which according to you is "fine".

It's not just fine, it's thriving. Moving salary caps down isn't necessarily a sign of less spending power. They could have moved it up when Saracens were prepared to spend bucketfulls of cash. Finding the right point across all teams is key.

Imagine Saracens had a stadium refurbishment bought for them, then found out they could not repay the ££ back because their crowds were too low which were effecting income streams so much. Imagine the uproar in the rugby community that would have ensued.

That's what happened at Munster, But no, as always it's the English that are the problem eh?
No idea what you mean by the bit in bold? Your definition of thriving is different to mine it seems. Stagnant attendances at best, falling salary cap, players leaving in droves, no promotion/relegation in a nation the size of England (even rugby league has that), falling tv deals, clubs constantly tethering on the edge (wasps, Worcester a month late paying players, Yorkshire Carnegie gone thus basically ruining any chance the game has of expanding north).

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 23 Jun 2022, 8:30 am

Maybe because those things have been impacted from covid and not part of the linger trend?

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Post by Old Man Thu 23 Jun 2022, 9:42 am

Pardon my ignorance, but why is the URC killing Welsh rugby?

Is it the tournament, or the way the WRU has set up their teams?

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:01 am

Might be wrong but I think the Welsh teams have always wanted to be part of a league with the English teams. As a result they on the whole havent shown much interest in the URC and previous versions of it albeit there have been some great Welsh sides like the Osprey's galacticos and the recent Scarlets side that won the league.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:11 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Might be wrong but I think the Welsh teams have always wanted to be part of a league with the English teams. As a result they on the whole havent shown much interest in the URC and previous versions of it albeit there have been some great Welsh sides like the Osprey's galacticos and the recent Scarlets side that won the league.


I think you mean 'some Welsh fans'.
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Post by Old Man Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:27 am

The Oracle wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Might be wrong but I think the Welsh teams have always wanted to be part of a league with the English teams. As a result they on the whole havent shown much interest in the URC and previous versions of it albeit there have been some great Welsh sides like the Osprey's galacticos and the recent Scarlets side that won the league.


I think you mean 'some Welsh fans'.

oK, so not all Welsh fans have a negative position to the URC?

Would they be more positive to the URC without the SA teams?

In the past did the Welsh teams compete against the English clubs in a league?

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:34 am

Watching the final and what it meant to the two sides and the passion and number of fans I dont see how anyone could argue it isnt a good thing. Look forward to making a game in Cape Town some day as I still have never been in SA.

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:35 am

The Oracle wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Might be wrong but I think the Welsh teams have always wanted to be part of a league with the English teams. As a result they on the whole havent shown much interest in the URC and previous versions of it albeit there have been some great Welsh sides like the Osprey's galacticos and the recent Scarlets side that won the league.


I think you mean 'some Welsh fans'.

Well not sure what I meant really, just a sense I get.

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Post by Old Man Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:44 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Watching the final and what it meant to the two sides and the passion and number of fans I dont see how anyone could argue it isnt a good thing. Look forward to making a game in Cape Town some day as I still have never been in SA.

You will love Capetown, beautiful place, the proximity of the Stadium to the Waterfront is very convenient for eating out, going on a boat ride to Robben Island, going up tabla mountain, plenty of sites and some great vineyards and wine tasting.

If you ever only make one trip to SA Capetown is the place to go. The culture, the people, etc.

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:50 am

100%, was booked in to stay at Camps bay in Cape Town for a week a few years ago but had to cancel. Was so disapointed. Its on the list.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:55 am

Old Man wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Might be wrong but I think the Welsh teams have always wanted to be part of a league with the English teams. As a result they on the whole havent shown much interest in the URC and previous versions of it albeit there have been some great Welsh sides like the Osprey's galacticos and the recent Scarlets side that won the league.


I think you mean 'some Welsh fans'.

oK, so not all Welsh fans have a negative position to the URC?

Would they be more positive to the URC without the SA teams?

In the past did the Welsh teams compete against the English clubs in a league?


No. On this forum from memory only really RugbyFan1000 and PhilBB hate the league. Others such as LordDowlais dislike certain elements. Many others like the league. I'm sure fans of ALL nations of the URC would like to make some small changes if they were given a wish list. And I'm sure there are fans in SA who dislike the URC too, but they just don't post on here!

The above posters who hate the league hated it before the SA teams joined, so I don't think that is an issue. I personally don't agree with the SA teams joining, but it has not spoiled the league for me. I've posted about it previously - my issue is just with long haul travel in a domestic league in the current climate, and for me jetting off to SA and SA teams jetting off around Europe isn't ideal financially or environmentally. But from a rugby point of view the SA teams have added loads to the league and I've enjoyed seeing them play, and enjoyed my team playing against them.

Welsh teams used to play a lot more against English teams but as far as I know there was only one time in the recent past when some Welsh clubs played the English ones. The so called 'Rebel Years' 98-99 when Cardiff and Swansea played friendlies against the English Premiership teams. Not an official tournament though, although according to Wiki the BBC secured TV rights to broadcast it.
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Post by The Oracle Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:58 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Might be wrong but I think the Welsh teams have always wanted to be part of a league with the English teams. As a result they on the whole havent shown much interest in the URC and previous versions of it albeit there have been some great Welsh sides like the Osprey's galacticos and the recent Scarlets side that won the league.


I think you mean 'some Welsh fans'.

Well not sure what I meant really, just a sense I get.

I've never heard any noises from the regions or the WRU that they want to join the English league. Certainly some fans have voiced that though, including a loud but relatively small number of posters on Twitter.
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Post by Old Man Thu 23 Jun 2022, 12:11 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Might be wrong but I think the Welsh teams have always wanted to be part of a league with the English teams. As a result they on the whole havent shown much interest in the URC and previous versions of it albeit there have been some great Welsh sides like the Osprey's galacticos and the recent Scarlets side that won the league.


I think you mean 'some Welsh fans'.

oK, so not all Welsh fans have a negative position to the URC?

Would they be more positive to the URC without the SA teams?

In the past did the Welsh teams compete against the English clubs in a league?


No.  On this forum from memory only really RugbyFan1000 and PhilBB hate the league.  Others such as LordDowlais dislike certain elements.  Many others like the league.  I'm sure fans of ALL nations of the URC would like to make some small changes if they were given a wish list. And I'm sure there are fans in SA who dislike the URC too, but they just don't post on here!  

The above posters who hate the league hated it before the SA teams joined, so I don't think that is an issue.  I personally don't agree with the SA teams joining, but it has not spoiled the league for me.  I've posted about it previously - my issue is just with long haul travel in a domestic league in the current climate, and for me jetting off to SA and SA teams jetting off around Europe isn't ideal financially or environmentally.  But from a rugby point of view the SA teams have added loads to the league and I've enjoyed seeing them play, and enjoyed my team playing against them.

Welsh teams used to play a lot more against English teams but as far as I know there was only one time in the recent past when some Welsh clubs played the English ones.  The so called 'Rebel Years' 98-99 when Cardiff and Swansea played friendlies against the English Premiership teams.  Not an official tournament though, although according to Wiki the BBC secured TV rights to broadcast it.

Yes like I previously posted, I would prefer an all South African league instead of the URC, however I understand we don't have the revenue to make it on our own. Most South Africans have embraced the URC, I haven't heard or seen any negative opinions about the URC from South Africans, they do probably exist. From our perspective we are used to the travel element so that to us is part and parcel of the deal.

I think in years to come travelling to SA will become popular as it is vert cheap for Europeans to come over for a couple of days.

You can get a self catering chalet that sleeps four for as little as R700 per night, what's that £35?

A meal at a restaurant per person for a good steak etc will cost less than R200, alcohol isn't expensive here compared to Europe, you can buy 24 beers for less than R300 at a bottle store.

So spending here won't break the bank, the air ticket is the pricy thing.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 23 Jun 2022, 12:31 pm

Old Man wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Might be wrong but I think the Welsh teams have always wanted to be part of a league with the English teams. As a result they on the whole havent shown much interest in the URC and previous versions of it albeit there have been some great Welsh sides like the Osprey's galacticos and the recent Scarlets side that won the league.


I think you mean 'some Welsh fans'.

oK, so not all Welsh fans have a negative position to the URC?

Would they be more positive to the URC without the SA teams?

In the past did the Welsh teams compete against the English clubs in a league?


No.  On this forum from memory only really RugbyFan1000 and PhilBB hate the league.  Others such as LordDowlais dislike certain elements.  Many others like the league.  I'm sure fans of ALL nations of the URC would like to make some small changes if they were given a wish list. And I'm sure there are fans in SA who dislike the URC too, but they just don't post on here!  

The above posters who hate the league hated it before the SA teams joined, so I don't think that is an issue.  I personally don't agree with the SA teams joining, but it has not spoiled the league for me.  I've posted about it previously - my issue is just with long haul travel in a domestic league in the current climate, and for me jetting off to SA and SA teams jetting off around Europe isn't ideal financially or environmentally.  But from a rugby point of view the SA teams have added loads to the league and I've enjoyed seeing them play, and enjoyed my team playing against them.

Welsh teams used to play a lot more against English teams but as far as I know there was only one time in the recent past when some Welsh clubs played the English ones.  The so called 'Rebel Years' 98-99 when Cardiff and Swansea played friendlies against the English Premiership teams.  Not an official tournament though, although according to Wiki the BBC secured TV rights to broadcast it.

Yes like I previously posted, I would prefer an all South African league instead of the URC, however I understand we don't have the revenue to make it on our own. Most South Africans have embraced the URC, I haven't heard or seen any negative opinions about the URC from South Africans, they do probably exist. From our perspective we are used to the travel element so that to us is part and parcel of the deal.

I think in years to come travelling to SA will become popular as it is vert cheap for Europeans to come over for a couple of days.

You can get a self catering chalet that sleeps four for as little as R700 per night, what's that £35?

A meal at a restaurant per person for a good steak etc will cost less than R200, alcohol isn't expensive here compared to Europe, you can buy 24 beers for less than R300 at a bottle store.

So spending here won't break the bank, the air ticket is the pricy thing.

Sorry, not sure if you're picking up on my financial point above? If so I meant more for the teams than travelling fans. Flying 30 players or more, plus coaches, kit men, physios, etc. to SA, paying for accommodation and meals for an extended tour, etc. The costs must be huge. And the same (or worse, relatively speaking) for the SA teams coming here. At a time of budget cutting and tightening of belts it will take up an increasingly large percentage of a club's budget.

If SA was next to France I'd be all over it! But it just seems overly extravagant at the moment. But that's just a personal thing Smile
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Post by profitius Thu 23 Jun 2022, 12:42 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Oakdene wrote:

As long as Ulster are looked after for their 7pm Friday home games......

The other clubs just accept it. They have no backbone. Imagine Stade Francais had a little special slot at 5pm on Saturdays in the Top14 whilst all the others had fixtures all over the place...do you think Toulon and the rest would just accept it? Of course that wouldn't happen as the T14 is competent league.

Anybody able to answer the question on how many evening home fixtures the South African sides had?
Given that we have finally accepted that TV dictate kick off times; In order to fix it, the league would have to go out and get brand new TV deals would it not?

As I've said, the 'league' is such an awful, out of control monstrosity, it is unfixable. There are far too many teams in it spread across too many places for any tv deal to make it work


Nonsense. All are on roughly the same time zone and the world cup has teams from everywhere, is that devalued?


The same arguments were made when the Italians joined.
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Post by Old Man Thu 23 Jun 2022, 12:42 pm

Yeah, I did understand from a team perspective

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Post by Intotouch Thu 23 Jun 2022, 3:38 pm

Old Man wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Might be wrong but I think the Welsh teams have always wanted to be part of a league with the English teams. As a result they on the whole havent shown much interest in the URC and previous versions of it albeit there have been some great Welsh sides like the Osprey's galacticos and the recent Scarlets side that won the league.


I think you mean 'some Welsh fans'.

oK, so not all Welsh fans have a negative position to the URC?

Would they be more positive to the URC without the SA teams?

In the past did the Welsh teams compete against the English clubs in a league?

Hi Old Man,
I thought there was a ten year period (80s? 90s?) where Welsh and English teams played each other regularly. I could be wrong about this so apologies to Welsh fans reading this if I am. From the comments and some articles that I’ve read in Welsh media some rugby fans see joining the prem as a great solution to crowd attendances as away fans traveled easily to matches against English sides in the past  and everyone was excited to see their teams against English opposition and it was wonderful for everyone.

The English premiership did definitely make an offer to accept a certain number of Welsh teams into their competition. I think this was way back in ‘’95/96. I’m not sure of the year. The WRU refused the offer at the time. This refusal and the “what ifs “ and “if onlys” of playing in the premiership is brought up in click bait articles in WalesOnline regularly or by fans in comments there bizarrely regularly. As far as I can tell there is zero interest from the premiership in making this offer again.

A major problem in Wales I think is the REGULAR drip feed of negative articles about the URC in WalesOnline (no 1 most popular site for rugby news in Wales, first up on Google search)and the easy access/ immersion in English media that simultaneously hype up the premiership and how good and exciting  it is. The two together make it harder to entice Welsh fans to attend or even be open to the URC. Does any journalist in Wales point out the benefits of the URC? Maybe negative articles are garunteed more clicks. I don’t know how editors decided this. This running down of the URC and harking after joining the premiership or having a British and Irish league pre-dates the South African teams joining. The criticism of the SA teams joining that I’ve noticed in Welch podcasts/ press is that the distance and cost of travelling so far for a match is extreme/ crazy, how random the collection of countries involved is, And how a British and Irish league makes much better sense than this.  

In contrast following SA rugby news this year I was struck by how uniformly positive all news sites were there about the URC and didn’t see one article discussing how they should have stayed in super rugby or how super rugby is so much better and if only they could rejoin and remember in 2010 how brilliant it was to play against ….. Indeed the URC was more than accepted by journalists it was actively promoted! Articles pointing out benefits like international players in every team etc. The Belfast telegraph has regular articles bout the prem teams but apart from this the prem isn’t promoted in Ireland or much discussed. In the Scottish press there’s a few negative articles/ podcast discussions about pro 12/ 14/ URC problems yearly, but nothing major. In Ireland it’s discussed in a positive way but not like that. More like the way eating lots of leafy greens and less sugar it’s considered good for us but not hyped by journalists. Once a year ish  there’s some criticism/ debate in the media about the standard.  I think we should do out best to follow SAs lead and hype this league. Has it ever been as well promoted in Europe? Can journalists, who are rugby lovers, get together and back this competition? I’d love to see this thrive.

The South African sides joining has been great for the league IMO. Rugby fans in Ireland that I know all agree on this. The lack of travelling fans has and will always be a problem for the league. It is a mish mash of teams. It is a bit crazy in some ways. But it’s in one time zone with more contrasts in style and climate than any other league which must help players develop and it’s still a young league with ways to improve. Id love to see at least four teams, from more than one country, with a good shout of winning it each year.

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