Welsh Club Rugby discussion.

First topic message reminder :

I didn't want to take over anybody else's threads on here, so I thought I would just use this one, it's a very long piece in the WOL but worth reading, a very interesting article interviewing Nick Garcia of Ospreys, and that a deal for Pro Rugby in Wales is almost there.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-agreement-80-done-24220120

What do you think ?

Oakdene wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:What pathway would that be? Something that doesn't keep on giving us the likes of Phil Davies and Byron Hayward?

Gareth Williams, probably a little underqualified himself is Wales' assistant coach. I read that he's expected to join Scarlets as defence coach. I don't see what defence coach credentials he has? And he's tasked with improving the second worst defence in the league; where-as Dai Flanagan was linked with Dragons as head coach, probably a tad under-qualified himself too.

With such appointments we can expect the mediocrity to continue.

This is my point Mikey, there must be decent coaches around in the Welsh system that would give better options to the regions than people who have been there before & done very little.

Why "must" there be?

PhilBB wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:There are buyers in place. Sadly the people in charge of the WRU aren’t business men, like what our current owners are. For some reason, Steve Phillips needs to run some figures.

Ultimately we are talking about better business men than him, so he has the cheek to scrutinise a man who has made a million plus success of himself.

It’s almost as necky as some small town business man, trying to sayx that professional business men waste money they have earned off the WRU, even though it’s what the pro teams are owed.

Your average simpleton forgets how long we’ve been under a Roger deal, whilst teams can invest in our league. Then they had to try to battle for some sort of parity and a threat of one less pro team. Then we have some kind of guff arguments that budgets are cut in the league, disregarding the fact that the Welsh have always been playing catch up beforehand.

Welsh rugby has not been "under a Roger deal" since Project Reset in 2018.

Roger would have 100% shut the Dragons.

It wasn't very well worded, but I was talking about how long the teams have been hamstrung, so included pre PR.

RiscaGame wrote:

It wasn't very well worded, but I was talking about how long the teams have been hamstrung, so included pre PR.

Hamstrung since 1996 when the WRU tried to rob 51% of each club!

650K per year on Vermuelen doesn’t seem like a good deal. He’s still class IMO, but Ulster probably envisioned him no longer playing for SA because of his age and the depth they have at No.8. I expected Coetzee to share the Bok 8 jersey with Wiese. I wouldn’t like any Welsh team to spend that on one player, but we can’t afford it anyway, and apparently they still don’t know what their budget is. Crapshow. .

Charles Piatau was on something like 600K per year and that wasn’t a great deal either.

Vermuelen more like £500,000 from what I have heard.

I am sure someone told me that is the highest ever paid at Ulster - Piatau and Pienaar got that sort of salary
Pienaer turned down Toulon who, it was reported, would double his salary

geoff999rugby wrote:Vermuelen more like £500,000 from what I have heard.

I am sure someone told me that is the highest ever paid at Ulster - Piatau and Pienaar got that sort of salary
Pienaer turned down Toulon who, it was reported, would double his salary

Vermeulen was on over €500,000 at Toulon six years ago https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/two-irish-based-players-feature-on-list-of-the-worlds-highest-paid-rugby-players-34884708.html

If he's more than Piutau, it's over €600,000

mikey_dragon wrote:650K per year on Vermuelen doesn’t seem like a good deal. He’s still class IMO, but Ulster probably envisioned him no longer playing for SA because of his age and the depth they have at No.8. I expected Coetzee to share the Bok 8 jersey with Wiese. I wouldn’t like any Welsh team to spend that on one player, but we can’t afford it anyway, and apparently they still don’t know what their budget is. Crapshow. .

Charles Piatau was on something like 600K per year and that wasn’t a great deal either.

The WRU (well, Pivac did) valued Faletau at £450k.

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Vermuelen more like £500,000 from what I have heard.

I am sure someone told me that is the highest ever paid at Ulster - Piatau and Pienaar got that sort of salary
Pienaer turned down Toulon who, it was reported, would double his salary

Vermeulen was on over €500,000 at Toulon six years ago https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/two-irish-based-players-feature-on-list-of-the-worlds-highest-paid-rugby-players-34884708.html

If he's more than Piutau, it's over €600,000

6 Years ago he was a better player.
My understanding is he is on the same as Pienaar and Piatau not more.
€600,000 sounds correct , which is rouglhy £500,000

geoff999rugby wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Vermuelen more like £500,000 from what I have heard.

I am sure someone told me that is the highest ever paid at Ulster - Piatau and Pienaar got that sort of salary
Pienaer turned down Toulon who, it was reported, would double his salary

Vermeulen was on over €500,000 at Toulon six years ago https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/two-irish-based-players-feature-on-list-of-the-worlds-highest-paid-rugby-players-34884708.html

If he's more than Piutau, it's over €600,000

6 Years ago he was a better player.
My understanding is he is on the same as Pienaar and Piatau not more.
€600,000 sounds correct , which is rouglhy £500,000

And the wage inflation over the last 6 years is......

That may be but Ulster salary bill is lower than 3 years ago.
Vermuelen is not the player he was 6 years ago.
Ulster cant afford Toulon type salaries

If you did hear 650,000 it may be euros, no way is it pounds

geoff999rugby wrote:That may be but Ulster salary bill is lower than 3 years ago.
Vermuelen is not the player he was 6 years ago.
Ulster cant afford Toulon type salaries

If you did hear 650,000 it may be euros, no way is it pounds

If the Ulster bill is lower than 3 years ago, they are getting ripped off as the IRFU spend on all contracts has increased in that time.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:650K per year on Vermuelen doesn’t seem like a good deal. He’s still class IMO, but Ulster probably envisioned him no longer playing for SA because of his age and the depth they have at No.8. I expected Coetzee to share the Bok 8 jersey with Wiese. I wouldn’t like any Welsh team to spend that on one player, but we can’t afford it anyway, and apparently they still don’t know what their budget is. Crapshow. .

Charles Piatau was on something like 600K per year and that wasn’t a great deal either.

The WRU (well, Pivac did) valued Faletau at £450k.

Perhaps a combination of Faletau being world class, Bath inflating his wages, and Pivac seeing him as first choice for the world cup. How long is his current deal with Cardiff?

I would have said £400K is fair. I won't say a lot about Pivac's selection policies, I've said enough, but where does this leave James Ratti... The guy just wasn't getting a shot down in SA, and now he'll sit behind Faletau for his club!

geoff999rugby wrote:
Ulster cant afford Toulon type salaries

I mean they are literally paying similar amounts, so of course they can.

mikey_dragon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:650K per year on Vermuelen doesn’t seem like a good deal. He’s still class IMO, but Ulster probably envisioned him no longer playing for SA because of his age and the depth they have at No.8. I expected Coetzee to share the Bok 8 jersey with Wiese. I wouldn’t like any Welsh team to spend that on one player, but we can’t afford it anyway, and apparently they still don’t know what their budget is. Crapshow. .

Charles Piatau was on something like 600K per year and that wasn’t a great deal either.

The WRU (well, Pivac did) valued Faletau at £450k.

Perhaps a combination of Faletau being world class, Bath inflating his wages, and Pivac seeing him as first choice for the world cup. How long is his current deal with Cardiff?

I would have said £400K is fair. I won't say a lot about Pivac's selection policies, I've said enough, but where does this leave James Ratti... The guy just wasn't getting a shot down in SA, and now he'll sit behind Faletau for his club!

Bath were paying him £350k.

Ratti wasn't the first choice 8 at Cardiff before Faletau arrived.

Point being that Pivac is a cowboy who is inflating the wages of Welsh players, unnecessarily, by getting involved in something that should be outside of his remit. It isn't outside of his remit because Roger and Phillips have set up the WRU so badly.

I'm certain Ratti had establsihsed himself as first choice 8. I know Navidi plays a bit there but he was unavailable through injury. I think Ratti is a very promising player.

Agree Pivac is a cowboy, and some players' wages have been overinflated! It would be alright if Faletau and Liam Williams could play front-row, but they can't...

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Ulster cant afford Toulon type salaries

I mean they are literally paying similar amounts, so of course they can.

To whom are Ulster "literally paying similar amounts" to Toulon salaries? What's the evidence for this?

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:That may be but Ulster salary bill is lower than 3 years ago.
Vermuelen is not the player he was 6 years ago.
Ulster cant afford Toulon type salaries

If you did hear 650,000 it may be euros, no way is it pounds

If the Ulster bill is lower than 3 years ago, they are getting ripped off as the IRFU spend on all contracts has increased in that time.

No, it hasn't. The spend on salaries has decreased due to cuts imposed by Covid impacts on income. All four provinces have had to reduce their salary bills, including playing squads.

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Ulster cant afford Toulon type salaries

I mean they are literally paying similar amounts, so of course they can.

To whom are Ulster "literally paying similar amounts" to Toulon salaries?  What's the evidence for this?

A small paycut from his 600k salary in France is what has been reported on Vermuelen, even though he's played for other teams since. That's Toulon levels of spending (and others). As with some of the other non Irish players his salary is being topped up by a third party I expect.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Ulster cant afford Toulon type salaries

I mean they are literally paying similar amounts, so of course they can.

To whom are Ulster "literally paying similar amounts" to Toulon salaries?  What's the evidence for this?

A small paycut from his 600k salary in France is what has been reported on Vermuelen, even though he's played for other teams since. That's Toulon levels of spending (and others). As with some of the other non Irish players his salary is being topped up by a third party I expect.

That's possible. Although I'm not aware of third parties paying salaries of Ulster foreign capped players as used to happen previously with players such as Piennar, etc. For the most part, those days and budgets are gone with the revamp in the province over the last 4-5 years. Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.

However, having to use a third party would indicate that Ulster on their own can't afford those high level salaries - and that's borne out across the board as the IRFU cut funding to provinces for spending on foreign-capped players in 2015, and redirected monies into the academies instead. Hence why over 100 academy players have been promoted into Irish squads over the last 4-5 years. Much cheaper and better investment overall.

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Ulster cant afford Toulon type salaries

I mean they are literally paying similar amounts, so of course they can.

To whom are Ulster "literally paying similar amounts" to Toulon salaries?  What's the evidence for this?

A small paycut from his 600k salary in France is what has been reported on Vermuelen, even though he's played for other teams since. That's Toulon levels of spending (and others). As with some of the other non Irish players his salary is being topped up by a third party I expect.

That's possible.  Although I'm not aware of third parties paying salaries of Ulster foreign capped players as used to happen previously with players such as Piennar, etc.  For the most part, those days and budgets are gone with the revamp in the province over the last 4-5 years.  Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.  

However, having to use a third party would indicate that Ulster on their own can't afford those high level salaries - and that's borne out across the board as the IRFU cut funding to provinces for spending on foreign-capped players in 2015, and redirected monies into the academies instead.  Hence why over 100 academy players have been promoted into Irish squads over the last 4-5 years.   Much cheaper and better investment overall.  

This article is laden with dis-information, so it might not be 100% but it does mention third party support for Vermuelen's salary:

https://rugbydome.com/ulster-rugby-player-salaries/

Munster have players on 3rd party support don't they? Weren't Snyman and de Allende paid for my someone else?

Pot Hale wrote: Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.  
 

Would that figure include the likes of Henderson and Stockdale on a central contract?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Ulster cant afford Toulon type salaries

I mean they are literally paying similar amounts, so of course they can.

To whom are Ulster "literally paying similar amounts" to Toulon salaries?  What's the evidence for this?

A small paycut from his 600k salary in France is what has been reported on Vermuelen, even though he's played for other teams since. That's Toulon levels of spending (and others). As with some of the other non Irish players his salary is being topped up by a third party I expect.

That's possible.  Although I'm not aware of third parties paying salaries of Ulster foreign capped players as used to happen previously with players such as Piennar, etc.  For the most part, those days and budgets are gone with the revamp in the province over the last 4-5 years.  Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.  

However, having to use a third party would indicate that Ulster on their own can't afford those high level salaries - and that's borne out across the board as the IRFU cut funding to provinces for spending on foreign-capped players in 2015, and redirected monies into the academies instead.  Hence why over 100 academy players have been promoted into Irish squads over the last 4-5 years.   Much cheaper and better investment overall.  

This article is laden with dis-information, so it might not be 100% but it does mention third party support for Vermuelen's salary:

https://rugbydome.com/ulster-rugby-player-salaries/

Munster have players on 3rd party support don't they? Weren't Snyman and de Allende paid for my someone else?

I'm not sure what you mean by disinformation, however, it's a guess that Vermuelen's salary is in part being paid by a third party - in other words, Ulster can't afford to pay that level of salary.

Munster have the very successful 1014 group of people who raise funds for Munster Rugby. They sourced the funds for Snyman and de Allende, because Munster Branch had no budget themselves and IRFU refused to pay anything. I think Jenkins got added into that, but that was in part because Snyman got injured.

IRFU contribute a certain amount to Irish-qualified players salaries, and the province must pay the balance through their own earnings/income. Foreign-capped players have to come from the province's budget, for the most part. Hence why their numbers have reduced so much in last few years.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote: Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.  
 

Would that figure include the likes of Henderson and Stockdale on a central contract?

I don't believe so. IRFU spend about €32/33m on provincial game. About €6-7m of that is on the 13-14 central contract players across the 4 - currently:
Porter, Furlong, Ryan, Henderson, O'Mahony, Beirne, Murray, Sexton, Aki, Ringrose, Henshaw, Earls, Stockdale. Stockdale's Cat A contract runs until end of upcoming season 2022/23. Not sure if he'll warrant a renewal, albeit there's a few players who'll be coming off them post RWC.

Pot Hale wrote:

No, it hasn't.  The spend on salaries has decreased due to cuts imposed by Covid impacts on income.   All four provinces have had to reduce their salary bills, including playing squads.

Publish the IRFU spend on players and management over the last three years.

Show us the figures.

Pot Hale wrote:Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.  

 

Wow. So the other three had over €55m spent on them.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote: Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.  
 

Would that figure include the likes of Henderson and Stockdale on a central contract?

They are ALL centrally contracted.

Pot Hale wrote: IRFU spend about €32/33m on provincial game.

Pat's made up figures again.

I see you haven't learned from last time. Never mind, we'll never agree.

20/21 €65,342,581

Ulster salaries were reduced in the last couple of years due to Covid.
If that is incorrect then two senior players lied to me and I don't think they are.
According to status they took all took a cut unless they were Academy players - some up to 20%.

The spend of 65m euro of course is a lot lot more than Provincial salaries.
I believe Pot is understating Ulsters bill - from what I have heard it would around £7.5 million including all coaching staff
I believe about half the spend goes to the Provincial teams.
Leinster would be the biggest spend due, in large part, to their high number of central contracts.

The individual provinces do keep to a pre-determined budget and are separately accountable for that budget.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote: IRFU spend about €32/33m on provincial game.

Pat's made up figures again.

I see you haven't learned from last time. Never mind, we'll never agree.

20/21 €65,342,581

That is not the spend on player salaries. As the accounts make clear.

PhilBB wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote: Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.  
 

Would that figure include the likes of Henderson and Stockdale on a central contract?

They are ALL centrally contracted.

The phrase "central contract" in Irish Rugby means those whose are put on an IRFU central contract, as distinct from those on an IRFU provincial contract.

You have been told this many times. Everyone in Irish rugby understands this.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote: IRFU spend about €32/33m on provincial game.

Pat's made up figures again.

I see you haven't learned from last time. Never mind, we'll never agree.

20/21 €65,342,581

Nothing is made up.  

"Professional Game Costs increased by almost €20m to just over €68m. You will recall that last year the Union made a provision of over €16m in relation to Branch amounts due to the Union, largely in respect of player recharges. Over the summer of 2020, a bailout package was put together made up of special Covid grants of over €14m together with an agreement to use all CVC monies received in respect of Pro14 for the benefit of the four Branches in the form of grants and credits against recharge amounts due. The cost of the bailout and the payment across to the Branches of CVC revenues resulted in the large increase in Professional Game Costs." IRFU Annual Report July 2021.

14.2m - Covid Grants
13.2m - CVC investment monies

This €27.4m was an accounting transfer to cover the last two accounting periods - 15 months in 2019/20 and 12 months in 2020/21 -  because the provinces hadn't paid their share of monies back to the IRFU due to no or restricted gates for fans.  It effectively wiped most of the debt provision that the IRFU had stated in its accounts against monies owed by the provincial branches to contribute to the cost of player salaries.  

Deduct this from the €65.34m total you quoted above and you're left with €37.94m of which c. €7m covers costs for the international games that year (2 extra 6N games) including national test team management, bonuses, match fees, etc. Their 5-year strategic plan (2018-2023) states the percentage they aim to spend on provincial costs each year - 39/40% of normal income.   I've had this confirmed to me by IRFU and provincial officials on a number of occasions.  

Player & Management Costs which include costs for test team - management salaries and player bonuses, match fees, for last three accounting periods were:

2018/19 - 40.5m - includes c.6m for test game - 34.5m on provincial game
2019/20 - 45.4m - 15 month period.  12 month equivalent 36.3m. Includes reduced c.4m for test game due to Covid restrictions (only 3 6N games).  c.32m on provincial game.
2020/21 - 65.3m - includes 27.4m to clear branches re-charge debts and c.7m costs for test game (2 additional 6N games). 30.94m on provincial game.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.  

 

Wow. So the other three had over €55m spent on them.

No - see above.  

Should have typed: €5.5m - my error on currency symbol. £4.9m was their stated sterling spend on player/management/medical staff.

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote: Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.  
 

Would that figure include the likes of Henderson and Stockdale on a central contract?

They are ALL centrally contracted.

The phrase "central contract" in Irish Rugby means those whose are put on an IRFU central contract, as distinct from those on an IRFU provincial contract.  

You have been told this many times.  Everyone in Irish rugby understands this.  

Your final sentence is false. Wholly wrong, as your maths is.

Pot Hale wrote:

Nothing is made up.  

Yet you just went on to make up the figures.

The spend has increased. It's been increasing since professionalism. Celebrate it, enjoy it. Revel in it. The game keeps costing the IRFU more and more as the figures prove.

Your stuff on the Ulster branch excludes the IRFU contribution, for starters.

We've danced this dance too many times. We won't agree, so let's not clog up this message board again with your estimates, g-estimates and incorrect use of figures (in my opinion).

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Nothing is made up.  

Yet you just went on to make up the figures.

The spend has increased. It's been increasing since professionalism. Celebrate it, enjoy it. Revel in it. The game keeps costing the IRFU more and more as the figures prove.

Your stuff on the Ulster branch excludes the IRFU contribution, for starters.

We've danced this dance too many times. We won't agree, so let's not clog up this message board again with your estimates, g-estimates and incorrect use of figures (in my opinion).

I didn't make up the figures.   The stuff on the Ulster branch includes the IRFU contribution to provincial contracts.   It says so in their report.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote: Ulster's spend on players/management last year was £5.5m IIRC.  
 

Would that figure include the likes of Henderson and Stockdale on a central contract?

They are ALL centrally contracted.

The phrase "central contract" in Irish Rugby means those whose are put on an IRFU central contract, as distinct from those on an IRFU provincial contract.  

You have been told this many times.  Everyone in Irish rugby understands this.  

Your final sentence is false. Wholly wrong, as your maths is.

My final sentence is entirely accurate. Irish fans/commentators/media know what an IRFU central contract means in the context of Irish rugby.

I do wonder why people still argue about this? It seems to never end. I find it very uninteresting.

In my early post when I posted £7.5 million when I meant £6.5 million - finger slip !

As to the £4.9 million figure Pot posted I suggest it is missing two components to explain the difference.
1. It does not include the 2 Central contracts.
2. It reflects the temporary drop players took during Covid which has since been reversed

So I humbly suggest £6.5 million is about right

Pot Hale wrote:[£4.9m was their stated sterling spend on player/management/medical staff.

That's extraordinary! So take out allthe coaches and all the medical staff and Ulster are spending less on players per season thn the Dragons!

Amazingly efficient financial management, fair play.

geoff999rugby wrote:In my early post when I posted £7.5 million when I meant £6.5 million - finger slip !

As to the £4.9 million figure Pot posted I suggest it is missing two components to explain the difference.
1. It does not include the 2 Central contracts.
2. It reflects the temporary drop players took during Covid which has since been reversed

So I humbly suggest £6.5 million is about right

Geoff - you're right in your assessment of reasons. If you read the snippet of commentary from the Ulster Rugby annual report that I posted, it says that the figure is not reflective of the full increase in cost due to the salary deferrals negotiated with Rugby Players Ireland.

I indicated in a previous post that central contract costs are not included as the IRFU do not remit these monies to the branches. The Annual Report provides some further commentary on the monies they receive from IRFU central and the amounts they have to remit to them.

It’s a shame that the discussion is heading a bit circular again. Guess the thread has run its course now.

Very interesting choice for some to make a reappearance after a while and then make personal attacks like the post I’ve just deleted.