Macho Moments...

A few seconds lost in time...Lingering images you remember..

Chavez v Rosario end of round 2...Remember Rosario throwing a punch after the bell ending the round and Chavez squaring up to the number 1 Lightweight in the World with a look that said..."It's Mr Chavez to you and you need my permission to do that"...The fight has sentimental value for me anyway but Chavez was awesome in that moment..Rosario shrinked.

Starling v Breland 2 Round 2...These two genuinely hated eachother Breland thought Starling an illiterate thug and Starling thought Breland had it far too easy....Starling started rabbit punching Breland winding him up in a clinch and Breland lost it...and a melee full of fist ended up with Mills Lane a passenger stuck between them...Good stuff..

Spinks v Holmes 2 Early round 1...Spinks may have said he thought the first fight was easy...But it didn't stop him soiling his pants when Larry ran over to him at the start of the rematch...Macho stuff ruined by a rip off decision..

Hagler v Hearns round 3....Love the bit when Hearns gets tagged and starts trying to bluff Marv with a giggle...Marv just runs after him with a "you ain't fooling pal" determination...All over seconds.later..

Bruno v Tyson 1 Rd 1....Wasn't so much the left hook that shocked everybody when Tyson rocked that was memorable for me but them dancing backwards to the ropes seconds later and Bruno shouldering the stocky Tyson to the ropes and trying and failing to follow up..

Something about that shoulder and Bruno's physique...Bit macho that...Bruno was stronger but it wasn't enough.

Don't like Frank but I appreciated that moment..

Duran-Barkley, round 10. Duran planting his feet and impudently slipping four or five shots from Barkley, before responding with a big right hand of his own with a trademark scowl on his face. Bit of classic Duran there (I know, I know Truss - he wasn't looking so macho a few years before when Hearns sat him down )

Also Foreman levelling Cooney, purely for how casual and easy Foreman made such a chilling knockout look. The sheer arrogance and ease of it was amazing. Looked as if he was taking a gentle stroll in the park as he delivered the finish.

Naseem Hamed slipping Kevin Kelley a cheeky wink after downing him the second time. It was a balls-to -the-wall round for Naseem after rounds of white knuckle see-sawing action. He seemed to be saying, Okay, you got me....so what, have some of this!
It's the kind of spirit that I think boxers exemplify more than any other sportspersons.

Superfly reminded me of a great one the other day on the Barrera-Morales thread: Erik daring to slug the last round out with Pacquiao in their first fight when he really didn't have to, and doing it as a southpaw, no less. Topped off with that great line to Merchant when he was asked about why he did that in the post-fight interview: "Did you like that?"

Derek Smalls wrote:Naseem Hamed slipping Kevin Kelley a cheeky wink after downing him the second time. It was a balls-to -the-wall round for Naseem after rounds of white knuckle see-sawing action. He seemed to be saying, Okay, you got me....so what, have some of this!
It's the kind of spirit that I think boxers exemplify more  than any other sportspersons.

Good call Foreman v Cooney....Cooney for his lack of talent could bang . Yet Foreman was so cool during all of it...

The first knockdown was amazing every punch he threw seemed to hit its target....The finish was devastating...

Hamed v Kelley is an interesting choice but sure why not...

A cut Minter backing Hagler up and telling him to come on was a macho moment...If stupid..

Galindez decking Rossman's cocky brother between rounds in the 2nd fight is always fun...A real grudge match that one.

Vitali Klitschko wanting to finish his fight with Lewis despite half his face hanging off. More than made up for his implosion against Byrd.

Mr Bounce wrote:Vitali Klitschko wanting to finish his fight with Lewis despite half his face hanging off. More than made up for his implosion against Byrd.

One of life's great mysteries....Who would have won that without the cut....

Lewis struggled with him like he did with other non name challengers..

As for Cooney can't think of many guys that lost more than twice and ONLY to legendary fighters !!...Probably none.

All the talk about Cooney reminded me of the vague idea I had, to ask about who we consider second tier heavy greats.
After all we discussed champions who were basically pants and lucked in massively ( Charles Martin, Shannon Briggs).
My thought was that Ray Mercer fell in to the category of being an "also-ran" in a tough era. I change my mind about the decision of the Lennox scrap every time I see it. won the WBO but back then it wasn't diddly squat and I don't think people see him as a legitimate title holder.He only got stopped in the very twilight of his career,which can be very much disregarded as relevant to his career.
I like Ray a lot and funnily enough like the aforementioned Vitali he gave Lewis a frightful scare.
Anyway back to Cooney. Much as I sometimes think the revised view of 80s heavies (yes he fought Foreman in '90) is a tad over stated, Cooney must surely be considered a 'great ' second tier  Heavy too despite his ultimate shortfalling.
P S. Sorry for 'highjacking" the thread Truss !

Would be a good thread that second tier post Smallsy..

Wouldn't put Briggs in the same category as Martin...Tested Lewis and beat an old George but still beat him...Martin is garbage..

When you look at Valuev...Seldon and Forrest types I'd pick Cooney and Briggs to wipe them but not Charles..

Love to have a Cooney type now....Huge name in the 80s...Holmes v Cooney was probably the biggest fight of my Boxing lifetime..

For all the wrong reasons.

I find Mercer quite difficult to rate, Derek. Came into the pro ranks as an Olympic gold medalist and also out-boxed (even out-jabbed) Lewis for long stretches, both of which suggest some real skill and finesse - but looked like a relatively crude slugger for the eight years in between, albeit a pretty exciting and enjoyable one.

Damiani was making him look pretty clueless, and Morrison similarly, but on both occasions Mercer had that power and tenacity to swing it back in his favour. But against a more wily opponent like Holmes (even a 42-year-old version) his lack of a Plan B caught up with him. Pretty sure he remarked immediately after that fight that he'd "have to learn how to box now" or words to that effect.

Certainly had a great chin (took some absolute bombs from Bert Cooper on a broken jaw without going into retreat mode at all) with a very nasty streak to go with it. Not the most focused or dedicated by his own admission, and I suspect he had more skill than he let on, but just enjoyed having a scrap a bit too much and wasn't always prepared to really work on his game. The danger of building your reputation on devastating power and ferocity and those around you buying into it wholesale, I guess.

As for Cooney, I'm not really a fan. I often wonder why Cooney gets rated so highly in comparison to someone like Morrison, who instead gets treated like some kind of joke figure. Morrison clearly had more talent, for me, and though he couldn't threaten the very highest echelons of the division he showed the kind of heart and resilience against Williams, Hipp and Ruddock that Cooney could only dream of.

Decent fighter, Cooney, but I don't think he extended Holmes as much as some claim. You could argue that the fight was relatively close on paper before the thirteenth round, but I've always though Holmes paced himself perfectly in that fight and when he stepped it up, you could see a massive gulf in class. Cooney didn't have the answers.

Morrison losing to Bentt hurts him..though I rate him higher than Cooney...Cooney won four rounds against Holmes...Did Berbick win a round ??....Bonecrusher got shutout by an old Larry and Weaver despite having him in trouble in the 7th ?? (Or was that Snipes) lost comfortably...

Cooney fought peak Larry....The Spinks loss is his worse but he had alcohol problems then I believe...

Cooney like I mentioned earlier only lost to P4P greats....and he was in huge fights...Golden era fighter as well.

Morrison missed his unification with Lewis....But for sure he deserves better..

Also Lyle..Norton and Young were big names if way past their sell by dates...Thomas.. Ruddock and Williams paled in comparison..

Being Irish American in New England was a dream for any Heavyweight..

Cooney beats Coetzee..Berbick....Bonecrusher..Weaver...and probably a fat Page...Big John Tate would no doubt find a way to lose to him he was good at giving suckers a break...

Tubbs...Thomas..are pickem...

Witherspoon beats him comfortably..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Would be a good thread that second tier post Smallsy..

Wouldn't put Briggs in the same category as Martin...Tested Lewis and beat an old George but still beat him...Martin is garbage..

When you look at Valuev...Seldon and Forrest types I'd pick Cooney and Briggs to wipe them but not Charles..

Love to have a Cooney type now....Huge name in the 80s...Holmes v Cooney was probably the biggest fight of my Boxing lifetime..

For all the wrong reasons.

I hasten to add that I don't think Briggs was poor but his name did come up .

As for Valuev, well I never thought that he was a bad fighter. Hagler actually rated him as quite skilled. But certainly not  anybody's idea of a particularly exceptional talent, agreed. There were worse guys  around that time period... Thinking of Chagaev.

I was keen to read Chris' thoughts on Mercer, because yes he is something of a question mark.
As for Tommy Morrison, Michael Bentt threw the kitchen sink at him  after being humiliated in round one, and perhaps he was very lucky indeed. Certainly Tommy would have made a competitive match-up against Lewis  before spunking his (1st) opportunity.

Before my time but as was the precedent years and years ago...Challengers followed Champions about gaining publicity by baiting them..

Jack Johnson top 10 ATG heavy goes in to a bar challenging top 10 ATG heavy and champion James Jeffries to a fight...Jeffries tells Johnson he will stick a $1000 bucks on the table...Tells Johnson if he goes in to the cellar with him and comes out first it's his....

Johnson says you can forget it pal..

Jeffries = Macho..

That's fighting folks...Holmes goes in to a cellar with Tex Cobb..

Tex Cobb is number 1.

Bit of a controversial one...But remember Eamonn Magee standing in his own corner beckoning a young and well hyped Hatton in for a 12 round gut fest..

Tough guy Magee for all his lesser traits.

Derek Smalls wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Would be a good thread that second tier post Smallsy..

Wouldn't put Briggs in the same category as Martin...Tested Lewis and beat an old George but still beat him...Martin is garbage..

When you look at Valuev...Seldon and Forrest types I'd pick Cooney and Briggs to wipe them but not Charles..

Love to have a Cooney type now....Huge name in the 80s...Holmes v Cooney was probably the biggest fight of my Boxing lifetime..

For all the wrong reasons.

I hasten to add that I don't think Briggs was poor but his name did come up .

As for Valuev, well I never thought that he was a bad fighter. Hagler actually rated him as quite skilled. But certainly not  anybody's idea of a particularly exceptional talent, agreed. There were worse guys  around that time period... Thinking of Chagaev.

I was keen to read Chris' thoughts on Mercer, because yes he is something of a question mark.
As for Tommy Morrison, Michael Bentt threw the kitchen sink at him  after being humiliated in round one, and perhaps he was very lucky indeed. Certainly Tommy would have made a competitive match-up against Lewis  before spunking his (1st) opportunity.

I thought Chagaev beat Valuev although I may be wrong.