WALES INTERNATIONAL: GAMES, SQUADS, TOURNAMENTS, CHAT - SUMMER TOUR & SEASON 2022/23

First topic message reminder :

Here it is:

Springbok team to face Wales in Cape Town:
15 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 17 caps, 12 pts (1t, 2c, 1p)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulon) – 19 caps 18pts, 50pts (10t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 27 caps, 25 pts (5t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Wild Knights) – 59 caps, 35 pts (7t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 26 caps, 100 pts (20t)
10 – Handre Pollard (Leicester Tigers) – 61 caps, 613 pts (6t, 83c, 131p, 4d)
9 – Jaden Hendrikse (Cell C Sharks) – 3 caps, 5 pts (1t)
8 – Jasper Wiese (Leicester Tigers) – 12 caps, 0 pts
7 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (Toyota Verblitz) – 59 caps, 25 pts (5t)
6 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 64 caps, 30 pts (6t)
5 – Lood de Jager (Wild Knights) – 57 caps, 25 pts (5t)
4 – Eben Etzebeth (Cell C Sharks) – 99 caps, 15 pts (3t)
3 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 47 caps, 5pts (1t)
2 – Bongi Mbonambi (Cell C Sharks) – 49 caps, 50 pts (10t)
1 – Trevor Nyakane (Racing 92) – 55 caps, 5pts (1t)

Replacements:
16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 48 caps, 55 pts (11t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 60 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Vincent Koch (Wasps) 33 caps, 0 pts
19 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 52 caps, 5pts (1t)
20 – Kwagga Smith (Shizuoka Blue Revs) – 20 caps, 5 pts (1t)
21 – Elrigh Louw (Vodacom Bulls) – 1 cap, 0pts
22 – Faf de Klerk (Canon Eagles) – 37caps, 25pts (5t)
23 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 73 caps, 60 pts (12t)

RiscaGame wrote:Very interesting that. I am sure the WRU won't bat an eyelid, but more of this needs to happen for them to wake up (in my opinion).

It is, though from a selfish point of view they're the Scarlets main sponsor so this is very concerning.

Absolutely. Guess it depends what agreement you have in place, that seemingly they’ll honour?

RiscaGame wrote:Absolutely. Guess it depends what agreement you have in place, that seemingly they’ll honour?

Yes, they have said they aren't going to enter any new deals so here's hoping we're ok for the coming season at the very least.

I hear Cardiff are struggling cash flow wise?

Yeah, it doesn't sound great.

I hope the Dragons deal goes through sooner than the deadline seemingly imposed (July), as it will hopefully give the pro teams more ammunition to push back against the WRU, if there isn't a perceived conflict of interests.

RiscaGame wrote:Yeah, it doesn't sound great.

I hope the Dragons deal goes through sooner than the deadline seemingly imposed (July), as it will hopefully give the pro teams more ammunition to push back against the WRU, if there isn't a perceived conflict of interests.

I have a feeling if it doesn't then the deadline will just be pushed back every time.

Rhys Webb has also just retired before the world cup, effective immediately from what I understand.

Something not quite right in camp?

I would say it's maybe a bit of that, bit more of the way the WRU are treating their supply chain.

Will Wales be able to field a team at this rate....

mikey_dragon wrote:Rhys Webb has also just retired before the world cup, effective immediately from what I understand.

Something not quite right in camp?

Depends on the offer he has received from abroad - might be too good to turn down or risk getting injured before he joins the new club.

Strange, he was likely to be first choice. Am I right in saying he's never been to a world cup?

Gareth Davies is now first choice for me.

Couple of whispers that AWJ, Tipuric & Webb aren't happy with who has been chosen as captain - not sure how much to read into it though.

Haha, it’s Rowlands as captain isn’t it.

I can imagine a French team saying that they wouldn’t offer Webb a contract if he went to the WC. After all, they’d be looking for players to cover when the WC players are away. So there might be some truth in that rumour that he’s been offered a contract abroad that is contingent on him not going to the WC. However, wasn’t it Webb who needed to get his previous contract in France terminated as his family hated it? They came home early and he tried to stay on but couldn’t be apart from them. If so, it would be odd if he’s gone to France again.

I think some of this is contract stuff but some of it is a two fingers up to the WRU for the previous contract and funding row. They called off the strike before the England game but this is maybe a way for individuals to protest.

mountain man wrote:Will Wales be able to field a team at this rate....

Well, in reality it’s only 3 players (so far)!

AWJ - would have had him in the squad as a senior head but on form you might question whether he starts any games. So an argument there that he’s not a massive loss. But a WC needs an extended squad so I would have taken him.
Tipuric - class act and hard to follow but Wales does have a lot of decent back row players, and some that were not even selected (E.g. Thomas Young). So I think we’ll be ok without him.
Webb - has worked his way back up the pecking order and was very good at the end of the 6N against Italy. MOM performance. But Tomos Williams is still class and Gareth Davies has regained a lot of form. I was reading an interesting piece that suggested Pivac did not allow anything to happen off 9. All of his plays came from pods further out and played off the 10. So his 9s were not allowed to snipe. Not sure how much truth is in this but a feature for Wales under Gatland was players like Mike Phillips, Webb, Davies (especially), Williams all being a threat around the ruck so I hope this plays to the strengths of Davies and Williams. And if they’re in form then Webb isn’t such a great loss.

Rhys Carre out of the squad through being unfit!

mikey_dragon wrote:Rhys Carre out of the squad through being unfit!

At least this one didn't retire...

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Rhys Carre out of the squad through being unfit!

At least this one didn't retire...

Semantics - you could say he has been retired!

Shocking by the WRU to release the details like that, in my opinion. I would've thought Gatland's Crossfit challenges could've got him fit enough, otherwise what's the point of jetting off to these places? I get they should have targets, but I can't see how you can get him to shift weight so easily really. It's not as if he isn't pretty mobile for a prop. Good news for Nicky Smith mind.

RiscaGame wrote:Shocking by the WRU to release the details like that, in my opinion. I would've thought Gatland's Crossfit challenges could've got him fit enough, otherwise what's the point of jetting off to these places? I get they should have targets, but I can't see how you can get him to shift weight so easily really. It's not as if he isn't pretty mobile for a prop. Good news for Nicky Smith mind.

From what I've read it's targets he was given during the Six Nations that haven't been met. Rather than coming into camp, getting given new expectations and realising he's not there.

Bobby Stridgeon left the Wales setup after the Six Nations but Huw Bennett, Stridgeon's understudy for 8 years, stepped into the top S&C job so continuity in approach there. My presumption would be that Carre was so far adrift during the Six Nations fitness testing that they gave him benchmarks they felt he needed to hit by the summer in order to make it through the camps.

Given reports of Gatland being very shocked by fitness levels across the squad I'd guess that Carre wasn't the only one either. Perhaps others just did their homework better so to speak.

I agree somewhat that releasing the reason so publicly doesn't help anyone though. If enough injuries hit they might feel even an unfit Carre becomes the next best option. This release could back them into an awkward corner if that happens.

mikey_dragon wrote:Rhys Carre out of the squad through being unfit!

I thought you were taking the mick when I read that... that really is crap man management when you're read his comments previously around weight.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Rhys Carre out of the squad through being unfit!

I thought you were taking the mick when I read that... that really is crap man management when you're read his comments previously around weight.

Exactly. A WRU allegedly under scrutiny for being toxic and bullies. Release that statement? Wow.

Ok so I'm not overly fussed by Carre given previous coaches have said the same about him, albeit not in such a horrific statement. Gatland had a similar issue with Adam Jones all those years ago & he left him out of a squad because he didn't hit his body fat target & that gave him the rocket up the proverbial to get his head down....lets hope this works for Carre.

Now we're pleading with Cory Hill to play in the RWC after he's been offered a deal from a French side which if he signs they don't want him playing in the RWC.

Rugby is a brutal sport at the pro level with life long lasting impacts on the body (and, increasingly, the brain). Players who can get good contracts and bumper salaries should grab them with both hands. Unfortunately the WRU, through mismanagement, incompetence and lack of vision, have now found themselves in a position where they're not able to offer either. Offering pro players of this sport 10% (in some cases) of what they could earn in England, France, Ireland (less likely to be offered a contract there though), Japan, etc. is only going to accelerate the exodus of top players. And then they'll need to plead with players to play for them, like in the case of Cory Hill. What an absolute sh*t show. Players would die to play for Wales in the past. Now they need to choose their livelihoods vs national honours. And who can blame them for choosing the day job?

Please can we have a proper re-structure of the union? Clear out the gravy trainers. Clear out the blazers. Install a modern, forward thinking board with heaps of commercial experience, savvy and know how. Make it fit for purpose in a modern sporting & commercial environment. And then lets rebuild. Past players with zero or very little business experience in charge of a £100m business should never be the way to go. In any other business it wouldn't be acceptable, so why Welsh rugby?

I fear we haven't reached the bottom yet! More pain and misery to come before we start to get things back on track

Hill withdrawing now too. Are there any rumours circulating in Wales as to underlying reasons or is it just the straightforward ones in the press and it's just a bit of a coincidence that they're all happening now?

It sounds like Hill has been offered a big Top 14 deal but on the contingency that he is available all season. It seems he's opted for the safety of that over further international honours. Seemingly a personal decision around finances rather than something to do with the Wales setup.

I personally wouldn't have recalled Hill in the first place, given the cloud he left Wales under. So I am glad that Cement Head doesn't have that decision to make now.

Agree that the WRU board needs ripped up. Starting with this moron.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65849140

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hill withdrawing now too. Are there any rumours circulating in Wales as to underlying reasons or is it just the straightforward ones in the press and it's just a bit of a coincidence that they're all happening now?

I have heard that some in the camp aren't happy with who has been selected as Captain but nothing more than that. AWJ wasn't happy with the way he would be used by Gatland by all accounts, which I guess means he isn't a starter. Tipuric is one who isn't happy with the selection of skipper.

It’s Will Rowlands I’m telling ye!

mikey_dragon wrote:It’s Will Rowlands I’m telling ye!

If my comments on Tipuric are true & he didn't like who was selected as captain, you could be right in so much as he's a good mate of AWJ & he's pissed off on his behalf.

Plus, there may be something about Rowlands and his 'Welshness'. I know, I know - this is going to sound xenophobic or something. But it's one thing representing Wales through qualification. But captaining them....... I wonder if they feel that a player who is not Welsh born, has only stepped into Wales very briefly to play for the Dragons and then jumped back out as soon as a better offer was on the table, is perhaps not deserving of such an accolade? If you compare him to AWJ who is Mr Wales, played all of his rugby (to date) in Wales, one pro side, etc., etc. Maybe that doesn't sit well? Completely speculating here. But I can imagine that causing a bit of a stink if it happened in, say, England or France, with a Welshman or Irishman being called up via a grandparent and then being captain within a very short space of time.

I see where you're coming from there.

The only other 2 I can see Tip's having an issue with being captain is Ken or maybe Jac Morgan.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Plus, there may be something about Rowlands and his 'Welshness'.  I know, I know - this is going to sound xenophobic or something.  But it's one thing representing Wales through qualification.  But captaining them....... I wonder if they feel that a player who is not Welsh born, has only stepped into Wales very briefly to play for the Dragons and then jumped back out as soon as a better offer was on the table, is perhaps not deserving of such an accolade? If you compare him to AWJ who is Mr Wales, played all of his rugby (to date) in Wales, one pro side, etc., etc. Maybe that doesn't sit well?  Completely speculating here.  But I can imagine that causing a bit of a stink if it happened in, say, England or France, with a Welshman or Irishman being called up via a grandparent and then being captain within a very short space of time.

No you’re absolutely right with all of that, and I get it. On the contrary, he’s become one of our best and most consistent players. He was a bit raw when he first started but he continued at it, got to respect that. Rowlands when fit is one of our players assured of their place.

Not doubting his ability as a player. Easily our best lock IMO. Awesome player. Just wonder about his credentials as a captain due to him not being ‘Mr Wales’. Again, purely speculation as I do not know if it’s him that has been offered the captain’s armband

Speculation at this point but I can’t figure out who would be captain and rile up the others.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65895289

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65895289

Seems ridiculous Gatland wasn't aware of issues facing Welsh rugby to be honest. We all knew, so someone on inside like him must know a whole lot more.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65895289

Seems ridiculous Gatland wasn't aware of issues facing Welsh rugby to be honest. We all knew, so someone on inside like him must know a whole lot more.

Knowing it's bad and suspecting it could get worse is different to actually knowing the exact scale of the mire though.

I follow these things fairly closely in the Prem for instance. Going into this season I knew it was bad and feared it might get worse but even so I wasn't expecting Wasps, Wuss and LI to go boom. Since that happened I've heard many fans say, "we knew this was coming", but really I don't think we did. PRL and the RFU absolutely should have but their lack of diligence is a different story. Many fans knew it was bad but seeing three Prem clubs go boom or the regions slashing operating budgets by a quarter for next season and saying, "we all knew", feels like 20/20 hindsight. I can't remember any posters here predicting this extent of issues a year or two ago for instance.

On another Tigers boards there's a poster who works in financial services and is one of the most knowledgeable on rugby I've discussed the sport with. He has done full breakdowns of a clubs accounts. He'll look at their public accounts, debts, assets, etc and then look up the same for owners, their companies, parent companies of the clubs being run. From what he did there the only club I thought was really in danger compared to previous years were Wasps. LI for instance had debts (to each owner and the DCMS covid loan) but also a big asset in the Hazelwood Centre and Crossan's company, even with LIs losses consolidated into it, is doing very well.

Basically, what I'm saying is suspecting it's getting worse and knowing the full scale are very different things. As for those on the inside knowing more we only need to look at how in the dark the players and coaches under clubs and unions have been. Going into games not having a clue if they are getting paid this week at multiple Prem clubs or the regions not having a scooby if contracts are going to be tabled for the following season.

Reported elsewhere that Gatland is considering calling up Jake Ball. Seems like a non-story. I do think we should though, mikey called it months ago.

The Welsh Rugby Union has appointed Richard Collier-Keywood, the former global vice-chair of PricewaterhouseCoopers, as its first independent chair.

Collier-Keywood will be joined on the WRU board by another independent non-executive director in Alison Thorne, the former chair of leading equality charity Chwarae Teg.

Thoughts?

These both seem very good appointments. I am surprised.

The latest proposed shake-up - changing the Welsh Premiership. It will consist of 10 teams and be under the control of the Pro Game Board, as opposed to the community board! Each club is to linked to a Region with the focus being on developing professional players (something the WP could never do). A salary cap will be introduced (bad news for Merthyr), which should put a lid on paying over-the-hill semi-pro's, I think.

I am unsure who the 10 will be as it's not been said yet, but it is to include a North Wales team by the sounds of it. I am also not sure how Llanelli will fit into it given they 'folded'. My assumption was that Newport, Cardiff, Swansea and Llanelli would be in.
This is meant to be a professional league, right? The league below this will be semi-pro, likley to include clubs like Newbridge, Bargoed, etc. Will the 10 be ringfenced? Would make sense if we're trying to bridge the gap between the academies, regional and international game.

I'm not sure why we are obsessed with trying to mirror the NPC, I think proper A teams for the Regions would have made sense. That was abandonded some time ago though.

Wales U20 squad:
Forwards: Josh Morse (Scarlets), Dylan Kelleher-Griffiths (Dragons RFC), Lewis Lloyd (Ospreys), Sam Scarfe (Dragons RFC), Lewis Morgan (Scarlets), Louis Fletcher (Ospreys), Ellis Fackrell (Ospreys), *Kian Hire (Ospreys), Liam Edwards (Ospreys), *Evan Hill (Ospreys), Mackenzie Martin (Cardiff Rugby), Jonny Green (Harlequins), Ryan Woodman (Dragons RFC), Morgan Morse (Ospreys), Lucas De la Rua (Cardiff Rugby), *Seb Driscoll (Harlequins), Gwilym Evans (Cardiff Rugby).

Backs: Archie Hughes (Scarlets), Harri Williams (Scarlets), Che Hope (Dragons RFC), Dan Edwards (Ospreys), *Harri Wilde (Cardiff Rugby), Bryn Bradley (Harlequins), Joe Westwood (Dragons RFC), Tom Florence (Ospreys), Louie Hennessey (Bath Rugby), Harri Houston (Ospreys), *Huw Anderson (Dragons RFC), Llien Morgan (Ospreys), Cameron Winnett (Cardiff Rugby).

*Uncapped at U20 level

A couple big lads up front, lock and back-row in particular, and the backline is very good if it's the same as previous. Under Mark Jones I think we'll be an improved team despite being grouped with France and NZ...

mikey_dragon wrote:The latest proposed shake-up - changing the Welsh Premiership. It will consist of 10 teams and be under the control of the Pro Game Board, as opposed to the community board! Each club is to linked to a Region with the focus being on developing professional players (something the WP could never do). A salary cap will be introduced (bad news for Merthyr), which should put a lid on paying over-the-hill semi-pro's, I think.

I am unsure who the 10 will be as it's not been said yet, but it is to include a North Wales team by the sounds of it. I am also not sure how Llanelli will fit into it given they 'folded'. My assumption was that Newport, Cardiff, Swansea and Llanelli would be in.
This is meant to be a professional league, right? The league below this will be semi-pro, likley to include clubs like Newbridge, Bargoed, etc. Will the 10 be ringfenced? Would make sense if we're trying to bridge the gap between the academies, regional and international game.

I'm not sure why we are obsessed with trying to mirror the NPC, I think proper A teams for the Regions would have made sense. That was abandonded some time ago though.

This is both very interesting but at the same time riddled with the usual WRU politics and perhaps appears to be another ‘fudge’. Some are saying that this is just the 10 team premiership that Nigel Walker wanted all along. However, it will be very interesting to see who actually wants to be in it. If a club signs up to this then it has been made very clear that they are essentially just a regional pathway side whose purpose is to give game time to current pros and emerging academy prospects. That’s it. No other purpose. They’ll need to tow the regional line (or whatever you want to call it), probably have players parachuted in and taken away again when needed. Essentially these will be regional A sides with no purpose other than to serve one of the 4 pro sides. I cannot see the likes of Pontypridd signing up to that as they want to exist in their own right, do their own thing and not be a pathway puppet for Cardiff rugby. And I can understand that. However, don’t sign up and they’re condemning themselves to the 3rd tier of Welsh rugby with reduced funding. Basically a bit like being relegated from the Welsh Prem this season down to the next level. It’s a tough choice to make. We definitely need that regional A tier in between pro and semi pro. But it’s going to be fascinating to see the thought process of teams signing up or not signing up, those that are ‘invited’, etc.

Pontypridd could always align themselves to Dragons if they don't like Cardiff. Supposedly Ebbw Vale have alreday said no, which if true they can be stripped of the academy players who were sent there anc can go on to enjoy their time enternaining amateurism. I don't begrdge their choice as it's their choice to make, but I expect the union will direct some of their funding elsewhere.

mikey_dragon wrote:Pontypridd could always align themselves to Dragons if they don't like Cardiff. Supposedly Ebbw Vale have alreday said no, which if true they can be stripped of the academy players who were sent there anc can go on to enjoy their time enternaining amateurism. I don't begrdge their choice as it's their choice to make, but I expect the union will direct some of their funding elsewhere.

True, the relationship might be better between the two of us compared to Cardiff, but I can’t see Pontypridd wanting to align with anyone. When they had some sort of relationship with Cardiff in the recent past they complained of Cardiff stealing their players, when in fact it was the pathway working as it should I.e. decent up n coming players running out for Ponty, doing well, getting spotted and then being promoted to the pro team in their region. So not poaching or stealing, just player pathway development. They had plenty of players from the Cardiff academy loaned to them too, but they always pointed out the ones born in RCT as ‘their own’!

It’s a hard thing for any team to swallow. They want a chance to get to the top (I.e. a normal rugby pyramid structure) but the route we’ve gone down in Wales means it’s not possible for a club in Ponty’s position to do so. They they either need to accept regional pathways and become subservient to the Cardiff (or Dragons) pathway and forego any chance of individual club glory or honours, or drop to the top level of a amateur rugby and be the big fish in a small pond but with a chance to play in a normal rugby pyramid structure, win leagues and cups, etc. and be in charge of their own destiny. It’s not a call I’d like to make on behalf of the fans!

Yes all of that is true. They still have the same attitude now and cannot be reasoned with. If Ponty were made to work with a proper region in the beginning, and not someone named Cardiff, it might have gone a bit smoother.

mikey_dragon wrote:Yes all of that is true. They still have the same attitude now and cannot be reasoned with. If Ponty were made to work with a proper region in the beginning, and not someone named Cardiff, it might have gone a bit smoother.

Yeah, that’s a good point. It was a fudge from the start. Although they were part of Warriors, which I think they moaned about too (lol), but it folded due to lack of interest and backing (and then the WRU spotting an opportunity to cut to 4 by not helping them out when the were in trouble!). And ever since Ponty have not wanted to be part of anything, not helped by Cardiff not wanting to be part of anything either!

Ryan Woodman looks in good nick, I hope we're playing him at blind-side though and not lock. With the 2nd row I'd opt for Edwards and Green. The rest of the back-row to be taken up by Martin and Morse, these guys look like the best in their positions.

Wales U20: Cameron Winnett (Cardiff); Llien Morgan (Ospreys), Louie Hennessey (Bath), Bryn Bradley (Harlequins), Harri Houston (Ospreys); Dan Edwards (Ospreys), Archie Hughes (Scarlets); Dylan Kelleher-Griffiths (Dragons), Lewis Lloyd (Ospreys), Ellis Fackrell (Ospreys), Liam Edwards (Ospreys), Jonny Green (Harlequins), Ryan Woodman (Dragons - capt), Lucus De La Rua (Cardiff), Morgan Morse (Ospreys)

Replacements: Sam Scarfe (Dragons), Josh Morse, Louis Fletcher (Ospreys), Evan Hill (Ospreys), Seb Driscoll (Harlequins), Tom Florence (Ospreys), Harri Wilde (Cardiff), Harri Williams (Scarlets).

Interesting, no room for McKenzie Martin.

Quins the new fifth region?