England's Winter of Cricket 2022/23

First topic message reminder :

Of course we have the World T20 covered in a separate thread, but I thought we should have a new one for England's upcoming games this winter, which feature:

Three ODIs in Australia (17th-22nd November)
Three tests in Pakistan (1st-21st December)
Three ODIs in South Africa (27th January-1st February)
Two tests in New Zealand (16th-28th February)
Three ODIs in Bangladesh (March)

Looking forward to the tests, but I think the ODIs will be instantly forgettable!

Not going too well for the U19 ladies against India. May require another supreme bowling effort again if they are going to win.

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Moeen, for me, is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob. Had a good few years to kick off his international career, but since 2018 has been mostly terrible, save for the odd performance here and there.

Vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob? I am lost for words on this. Luckily the selectors see things vastly different than ye do Duty

Go on then - what's he done since 2018?

Tests - averages 16 with the bat, 30 with the ball
ODIs - averages 20 with the bat, strike-rate of 86.5; bowling average 48, economy 5.46
T20s - averages 26 with the bat, strike-rate of 157; bowling average 26, economy 8.82.

T20s with the bat obviously his best suit, not much else to write home about.

Did you miss his innings in the T20 WC final? I would say that his knock was just as important as Stokes in guiding England to victory.

eirebilly_01 wrote:Not going too well for the U19 ladies against India. May require another supreme bowling effort again if they are going to win.

Bit like the semi final...top order falling apart again. 39/5 at half way. Some very poor shots - and what looked a rather rough lbw call on the stroke of drinks - just what you need when in trouble

eirebilly_01 wrote:Did you miss his innings in the T20 WC final? I would say that his knock was just as important as Stokes in guiding England to victory.

Blimey, I wouldn't go that far. It was only 19, and the game was effectively done when Moeen got to the crease because Shaheen was hobbling and Pakistan didn't have much bowling in reserve.

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Moeen, for me, is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob. Had a good few years to kick off his international career, but since 2018 has been mostly terrible, save for the odd performance here and there.

Vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob? I am lost for words on this. Luckily the selectors see things vastly different than ye do Duty

Go on then - what's he done since 2018?

Tests - averages 16 with the bat, 30 with the ball
ODIs - averages 20 with the bat, strike-rate of 86.5; bowling average 48, economy 5.46
T20s - averages 26 with the bat, strike-rate of 157; bowling average 26, economy 8.82.

T20s with the bat obviously his best suit, not much else to write home about.

As I said earlier, I do not put much pay into statistics but prefer my own eyes and experience to judge.
The thing about statistics is that they do not tell the full story for me. They do not highlight his leadership on the field (Captained many times through the highlighted period) and the game conditions when he came in to bat or bowl. Many times he has had wee gems of knocks that have turned games for England (T20 WC just a few months back helping England to win) and the important partnership breaking wickets he has taken during games.

Again, to claim that Moeen is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob is just plain bonkers to me. He is one of the greatest white ball cricket players England have had and that is reflected in his continual selection and in the selectors giving him such important responsibilities such as captaining.

alfie wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:Not going too well for the U19 ladies against India. May require another supreme bowling effort again if they are going to win.

Bit like the semi final...top order falling apart again. 39/5 at half way. Some very poor shots - and what looked a rather rough lbw call on the stroke of drinks - just what you need when in trouble

Just to get to the final was some achievement, any victory over the Aussies is great

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Moeen, for me, is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob. Had a good few years to kick off his international career, but since 2018 has been mostly terrible, save for the odd performance here and there.

Vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob? I am lost for words on this. Luckily the selectors see things vastly different than ye do Duty

Go on then - what's he done since 2018?

Tests - averages 16 with the bat, 30 with the ball
ODIs - averages 20 with the bat, strike-rate of 86.5; bowling average 48, economy 5.46
T20s - averages 26 with the bat, strike-rate of 157; bowling average 26, economy 8.82.

T20s with the bat obviously his best suit, not much else to write home about.

As I said earlier, I do not put much pay into statistics but prefer my own eyes and experience to judge.
The thing about statistics is that they do not tell the full story for me. They do not highlight his leadership on the field (Captained many times through the highlighted period) and the game conditions when he came in to bat or bowl. Many times he has had wee gems of knocks that have turned games for England (T20 WC just a few months back helping England to win) and the important partnership breaking wickets he has taken during games.

Again, to claim that Moeen is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob is just plain bonkers to me. He is one of the greatest white ball cricket players England have had and that is reflected in his continual selection and in the selectors giving him such important responsibilities such as captaining.

But what is there to back this claim up?

Until this morning, he had an ODI batting average lower than Woakes, and his bowling average in the same format is around 50. Today was his first ODI fifty since 2017. He's had some good T20 knocks, yes, but he doesn't particularly stand out in this regard compared to England's other illustrious hitters, and he hardly bowls in the T20 format.

You may not set much store by statistics, but they reveal the story of the player, and the reason why the statistics don't look too kind for Moeen is because he's overrated. If he really were one of the greatest white ball players England have ever had, the statistics would indicate this - like they do for Jos Buttler or Jonny Bairstow.

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:Did you miss his innings in the T20 WC final? I would say that his knock was just as important as Stokes in guiding England to victory.

Blimey, I wouldn't go that far. It was only 19, and the game was effectively done when Moeen got to the crease because Shaheen was hobbling and Pakistan didn't have much bowling in reserve.

It was not effectively done at all 54 off 45 if i remember and Pakistan were restricting England's run rate and were chocking them out of the game. Moeen's 19 provided the impetus for Stokes to drive it on home. Stokes himself even stated that Moeen's knock was incredibly important as it took the stranglehold the Pakistan bowlers had on England off...

I am a bit in between you two on Moeen. I think it's fair to say his form - particularly with the bat - has fallen away in recent years. At the same time I think it is also true that he has suffered from a lot of messing about by the Test selectors - and even in the white ball games his role has varied quite a lot : the down side of being an all rounder I guess. Often feel his bowling has been under utilised at times , which has probably not helped him when he has been called on to bowl in big games.
He didn't help himself when he opted out of Tests for a time due basically to a loss of confidence , though I think he was actually wise to settle for the limited over formats eventually. Think he still has something to offer there - as we just saw ; though he probably needs to display a little more consistency.

Somewhat underrated , if anything , with the ball , in my view. Batting perhaps has never quite lived up to early promise : other teams seemed to "work him out" and have mostly been able to limit his effectiveness - as shown in the figures Duty quoted above.

Is he a "lock" for the ODI team now ? Suspect he wouldn't be in some places now ( he lost his spot during the 2019 WC , after all) : but think they'd hope to have him on hand in India this year.

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Moeen, for me, is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob. Had a good few years to kick off his international career, but since 2018 has been mostly terrible, save for the odd performance here and there.

Vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob? I am lost for words on this. Luckily the selectors see things vastly different than ye do Duty

Go on then - what's he done since 2018?

Tests - averages 16 with the bat, 30 with the ball
ODIs - averages 20 with the bat, strike-rate of 86.5; bowling average 48, economy 5.46
T20s - averages 26 with the bat, strike-rate of 157; bowling average 26, economy 8.82.

T20s with the bat obviously his best suit, not much else to write home about.

As I said earlier, I do not put much pay into statistics but prefer my own eyes and experience to judge.
The thing about statistics is that they do not tell the full story for me. They do not highlight his leadership on the field (Captained many times through the highlighted period) and the game conditions when he came in to bat or bowl. Many times he has had wee gems of knocks that have turned games for England (T20 WC just a few months back helping England to win) and the important partnership breaking wickets he has taken during games.

Again, to claim that Moeen is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob is just plain bonkers to me. He is one of the greatest white ball cricket players England have had and that is reflected in his continual selection and in the selectors giving him such important responsibilities such as captaining.

But what is there to back this claim up?

Until this morning, he had an ODI batting average lower than Woakes, and his bowling average in the same format is around 50. Today was his first ODI fifty since 2017. He's had some good T20 knocks, yes, but he doesn't particularly stand out in this regard compared to England's other illustrious hitters, and he hardly bowls in the T20 format.

You may not set much store by statistics, but they reveal the story of the player, and the reason why the statistics don't look too kind for Moeen is because he's overrated. If he really were one of the greatest white ball players England have ever had, the statistics would indicate this - like they do for Jos Buttler or Jonny Bairstow.

Again, i do not put much into stats. I have explained myself, you disagree and that is fine. Luckily that England team management, selectors and team mates see much more in Moeen than you do.

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:Did you miss his innings in the T20 WC final? I would say that his knock was just as important as Stokes in guiding England to victory.

Blimey, I wouldn't go that far. It was only 19, and the game was effectively done when Moeen got to the crease because Shaheen was hobbling and Pakistan didn't have much bowling in reserve.

It was not effectively done at all 54 off 45 if i remember and Pakistan were restricting England's run rate and were chocking them out of the game. Moeen's 19 provided the impetus for Stokes to drive it on home. Stokes himself even stated that Moeen's knock was incredibly important as it took the stranglehold the Pakistan bowlers had on England off...

Moeen was on 5 from 7, England needed 28 off 24 with six wickets left, and Pakistan had run out of bowlers. The game was done, then Moeen hit a few boundaries to get the fabled 19.

I am going to drop it Duty, you do not like Moeen Ali, i do

This track looks a belter for the SA batters now. England still with a lot of work to do even with 342 to defend.

Meanwhile , the U19 lasses have made a right mess of their innings in the final...all out for just 68 ...three overs unused. Pitch looks a bit tricky ; but can't see them pulling this one out of the fire.

Indian fielding was rather good. But some of those wickets were rather donated.

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Moeen, for me, is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob. Had a good few years to kick off his international career, but since 2018 has been mostly terrible, save for the odd performance here and there.

Vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob? I am lost for words on this. Luckily the selectors see things vastly different than ye do Duty

Go on then - what's he done since 2018?

Tests - averages 16 with the bat, 30 with the ball
ODIs - averages 20 with the bat, strike-rate of 86.5; bowling average 48, economy 5.46
T20s - averages 26 with the bat, strike-rate of 157; bowling average 26, economy 8.82.

T20s with the bat obviously his best suit, not much else to write home about.

As I said earlier, I do not put much pay into statistics but prefer my own eyes and experience to judge.
The thing about statistics is that they do not tell the full story for me. They do not highlight his leadership on the field (Captained many times through the highlighted period) and the game conditions when he came in to bat or bowl. Many times he has had wee gems of knocks that have turned games for England (T20 WC just a few months back helping England to win) and the important partnership breaking wickets he has taken during games.

Again, to claim that Moeen is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob is just plain bonkers to me. He is one of the greatest white ball cricket players England have had and that is reflected in his continual selection and in the selectors giving him such important responsibilities such as captaining.

But what is there to back this claim up?

Until this morning, he had an ODI batting average lower than Woakes, and his bowling average in the same format is around 50. Today was his first ODI fifty since 2017. He's had some good T20 knocks, yes, but he doesn't particularly stand out in this regard compared to England's other illustrious hitters, and he hardly bowls in the T20 format.

You may not set much store by statistics, but they reveal the story of the player, and the reason why the statistics don't look too kind for Moeen is because he's overrated. If he really were one of the greatest white ball players England have ever had, the statistics would indicate this - like they do for Jos Buttler or Jonny Bairstow.

Again, i do not put much into stats. I have explained myself, you disagree and that is fine. Luckily that England team management, selectors and team mates see much more in Moeen than you do.

I always find this a baffling approach to take.

alfie wrote:I am a bit in between you two on Moeen.  I think it's fair to say his form - particularly with the bat - has fallen away in recent years. At the same time I think it is also true that he has suffered from a lot of messing about by the Test selectors - and even in the white ball games his role has varied quite a lot : the down side of being an all rounder I guess. Often feel his bowling has been under utilised at times , which has probably not helped him when he has been called on to bowl in big games.
He didn't help himself when he opted out of Tests for a time due basically to a loss of confidence , though I think he was actually wise to settle for the limited over formats eventually. Think he still has something to offer there - as we just saw ; though he probably needs to display a little more consistency.

Somewhat underrated , if anything , with the ball , in my view. Batting perhaps has never quite lived up to early promise : other teams seemed to "work him out" and have mostly been able to limit his effectiveness - as shown in the figures Duty quoted above.

Is he a "lock" for the ODI team now ? Suspect he wouldn't be in some places now ( he lost his spot during the 2019 WC , after all) : but think they'd hope to have him on hand in India this year.

For now he's fairly set, but pressure from Livingstone and (possibly) Jacks could displace him ahead of the World Cup.

Duty281 wrote:
I always find this a baffling approach to take.

As I find the approach of simply using statistics to form opinions a baffling approach to take.

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:
I always find this a baffling approach to take.

As I find the approach of simply using statistics to form opinions a baffling approach to take.

Just to explain a little more as to why i do not fully buy into statistics.

I do not know you or know what you do for a living so i will give you a little scenario that you work in an office environment.
You work Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm. You perform your tasks.
Come the end of year review, a computer system evaluates your performance based on that data and you get the minimum pay increase. That is the raw statistics.

Now, what the computer system does not take into account is that you could be one of those people that takes time out to help inexperienced colleagues to achieve their potential. You could be one of those people that keeps the moral up in your office. These things help increase the productivity of your company but would never show up on your core statistics.

This is why form opinions based on experience and what I see above statistics.

I am just of an older generation that looks more deeply into things than raw numbers

Stone is very good isn't he

eirebilly_01 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:
I always find this a baffling approach to take.

As I find the approach of simply using statistics to form opinions a baffling approach to take.

Just to explain a little more as to why i do not fully buy into statistics.

I do not know you or know what you do for a living so i will give you a little scenario that you work in an office environment.
You work Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm. You perform your tasks.
Come the end of year review, a computer system evaluates your performance based on that data and you get the minimum pay increase. That is the raw statistics.

Now, what the computer system does not take into account is that you could be one of those people that takes time out to help inexperienced colleagues to achieve their potential. You could be one of those people that keeps the moral up in your office. These things help increase the productivity of your company but would never show up on your core statistics.

This is why form opinions based on experience and what I see above statistics.

I am just of an older generation that looks more deeply into things than raw numbers

The human eye is prone to bias and selectivity. Statistical data is irrefutable, wide-reaching and objective.

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:
I always find this a baffling approach to take.

As I find the approach of simply using statistics to form opinions a baffling approach to take.

Just to explain a little more as to why i do not fully buy into statistics.

I do not know you or know what you do for a living so i will give you a little scenario that you work in an office environment.
You work Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm. You perform your tasks.
Come the end of year review, a computer system evaluates your performance based on that data and you get the minimum pay increase. That is the raw statistics.

Now, what the computer system does not take into account is that you could be one of those people that takes time out to help inexperienced colleagues to achieve their potential. You could be one of those people that keeps the moral up in your office. These things help increase the productivity of your company but would never show up on your core statistics.

This is why form opinions based on experience and what I see above statistics.

I am just of an older generation that looks more deeply into things than raw numbers

The human eye is prone to bias and selectivity. Statistical data is irrefutable, wide-reaching and objective.

You must be a planner or a QS

Take a small bit of advice from an old man. Individuals are important, they are not numbers

Not the best of times for England to have Bavuma finding some good form.

Words between Butler and V/D Dussen. Heating up

England struggling to stem the flow of runs - Stone really the only bowler offering much control.

Way to go yet though. Wicket or two could change things quickly. SA on top for now : let us see if they can sustain it to 343.

Indian U19 too good for the England girls today. Seven wicket win - might have been closer if a couple of catches had been held , but 68 just not enough to defend.

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:
I always find this a baffling approach to take.

As I find the approach of simply using statistics to form opinions a baffling approach to take.

Just to explain a little more as to why i do not fully buy into statistics.

I do not know you or know what you do for a living so i will give you a little scenario that you work in an office environment.
You work Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm. You perform your tasks.
Come the end of year review, a computer system evaluates your performance based on that data and you get the minimum pay increase. That is the raw statistics.

Now, what the computer system does not take into account is that you could be one of those people that takes time out to help inexperienced colleagues to achieve their potential. You could be one of those people that keeps the moral up in your office. These things help increase the productivity of your company but would never show up on your core statistics.

This is why form opinions based on experience and what I see above statistics.

I am just of an older generation that looks more deeply into things than raw numbers

The human eye is prone to bias and selectivity. Statistical data is irrefutable, wide-reaching and objective.

You must be a planner or a QS

Take a small bit of advice from an old man. Individuals are important, they are not numbers

This is true, but when assessing the ability of international-level cricketers, numbers are most important.

alfie wrote:England struggling to stem the flow of runs - Stone really the only bowler offering much control.

Way to go yet though. Wicket or two could change things quickly. SA on top for now : let us see if they can sustain it to 343.

Indian U19 too good for the England girls today. Seven wicket win - might have been closer if a couple of catches had been held , but 68 just not enough to defend.

It's concerning times. England are putting themselves in strong positions but seem unable to close it out. A sure sign of a team that has shot form and lost confidence.

Bavuma really coming down with cramps. Not good for him.

Just to but in again : numbers aren't everything , though I agree they are significant. Stokes , for example , is worth far more to his team than his raw figures would generally indicate.

Impact on games counts for a lot that isn't always shown up in the stats. I think you can make a case for Moeen (at least in white ball cricket) being a bit better than his averages suggest. Wouldn't go so far as to call him a superstar though.

Be handy if he could come on and get some wickets now

But I am getting weary so will leave this and catch the replay tomorrow...goodnight all .

Massive 100 to Bavuma

Sam Curran, the go to man strikes. Bavuma out but it was some knock.

Rashid gets V/D Dussen. Game on again.

SA have managed this chase incredibly well. Really like the number of 2s they've managed to force, just through clever manipulation and aggressive running. Looks like their World Cup status is secure, and it'll be Sri Lanka, the West Indies and Ireland forced through the qualifier.

England, oh dear. Two wins from their last 11 and they just don't look as though they know how to win currently, even from strong positions. At least Stone has enhanced his credentials for selection. But stumbling into the World Cup, rather than striding.

alfie wrote:Just to but in again : numbers aren't everything , though I agree they are significant.  Stokes , for example , is worth far more to his team than his raw figures would generally indicate.

Impact on games counts for a lot that isn't always shown up in the stats. I think you can make a case for Moeen (at least in white ball cricket) being a bit better than his averages suggest. Wouldn't go so far as to call him a superstar though.

Be handy if he could come on and get some wickets now

But I am getting weary so will leave this and catch the replay tomorrow...goodnight all .

Yes, it can be true in the case of Stokes, who is a big-game player who has delivered in important moments.

It doesn't really apply to Moeen, who has rarely played well in the last five years, and I can't think of many big games he's turned up in. Moeen's statistics are a good indicator of the player he is - an underwhelming, bits and pieces player, who is in the side as someone who is not good enough to be a specialist batsman or bowler, but can occasionally put in something of note (such as today, his first ODI fifty since 2017).

Eng could not defend 350ish that you'd expect to defend even in this age 8 out of 10 times

and How did they lose the first game being 196-3 in 29 overs.....needing 100 more in 21 overs

Not watching so hard to figure....but maybe lacking the top gear

Sadly, as I am a big fan of Moeen, I am with Duty when it comes to ODIs. OK, he got a 50 today, but give a long list of any other players quite a lot of innings and they'd get a 50 eventually as well.

He really has been poor in ODIs for a long time. I can see what the selectors are hoping for, its a package of experience, spin and big hitting for the World Cup, but am really not convinced he's going to deliver much in India.

VTR wrote:Sadly, as I am a big fan of Moeen, I am with Duty when it comes to ODIs. OK, he got a 50 today, but give a long list of any other players quite a lot of innings and they'd get a 50 eventually as well.

He really has been poor in ODIs for a long time. I can see what the selectors are hoping for, its a package of experience, spin and big hitting for the World Cup, but am really not convinced he's going to deliver much in India.

He's definitely batting a spot too high but I do think Mo can play a part in Indian conditions. Both with his bowling and as a hitter of spin. Certainly a player I'd want in the squad out there but maybe not in my ideal XI if all are fit.

Without Stokes and Livingstone this squad is lacking the usual bowling options England can have in the top 6 though. Hence Mo being at 6. Not ideal but not a long term concern for the CWC either for me.

I still think Liam Dawson is worth looking at as a second spin option.

Woakes was way off his best here. England will need him back at his best. He was an unsung part of the CWC winning side. His consistency as a PP bowler for a few years was outstanding. He is a key cog in the machine.

If Stokes were to return I increasingly think I'd go with a top 6 of:

1.YJB 2.??? 3.Root 4.Stokes 5.Brook 6.Buttler

Back Brook's talent at 5, Jos at 6 for the ludicrous depth and versatility that affords. Then the second opener spot has lots of challengers. Roy, Salt, Malan, Ducket, Vince. Plenty of options there.

7-11 made up of 2 spinners (from Dilly, Mo and Dawson for me) and 3 seamers (hopefully from Jof, Woakes, Surran and Wood depending on fitness and conditions).

Hopefully Livingstone is fit to be around the squad too as a batting all-rounder who's far better suited to batting top 6 these days than Mo.

Reasonable rough plan , KC. Essentially Brook replacing Morgan from the last WC (and with Roy still possibly under threat from sundry others if he can't show sustained form recovery) for the batting. Which looks a pretty good top six.

Bowling a little less clear. Have to replace Plunkett but the others are all still on deck - just a question of balance , with a second spinner more important here than in home conditions. Curran (who keeps growing in stature) looks a good option for both bowling variety and a bit of probably necessary batting depth. I get your interest in the often underrated Dawson but wonder whether they may prefer to employ Livingstone (riskier spin option but explosive batting ) at seven as an alternative to Moeen ?
Fast bowlers have all been a bit rubbish in these two games , apart from Stone ; but I'm not too bothered about the odd game...hopefully there will be a few lined up fit and well to choose from on the day. Unfortunately Rashid , though still an essential part of the team and always in my XI , looks to me have lost a bit of his edge and I fear wear and tear means that isn't going to change ; so the other bowlers will need to step up and do a bit more of the heavy lifting this time.
Would be nice to get back to winning games just for morale purposes. But they should at least be a team with a decent chance in India - if not favourites this time around.

(Just realized I have rather "assumed" Stokes will be back. Hope he is because I think those chances would drop quite a lot if he isn't ! )

VTR wrote:Sadly, as I am a big fan of Moeen, I am with Duty when it comes to ODIs. OK, he got a 50 today, but give a long list of any other players quite a lot of innings and they'd get a 50 eventually as well.

He really has been poor in ODIs for a long time. I can see what the selectors are hoping for, its a package of experience, spin and big hitting for the World Cup, but am really not convinced he's going to deliver much in India.

I understand where people are coming from Re Moeen but I still do not think that the stats paint the full picture of his importance to the team. To say that he is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob simply blows my mind. He may not deliver in India but he may well do so I fully understand his continued selection.

Moeen is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob. Most of it comes from when he burst onto the scene in 2014-2017. Between those years he was supreme quality, especially in 2016 with the bat:

Test batting average in 2016 of 46.86 with four centuries, including two in India, and an ODI batting average in 2016 of 45 with a strike rate near 150.

That Moeen was quality, but some people still think he's that destructive, match-winning player, when he simply isn't. Those years were anomalous in the context of his entire career. That's why he's overrated, because some think he's still a star player. To go even further and claim that Moeen is 'one of the greatest white ball players England have ever had' is completely bizarre, but I invite reasons for why this might be the case.

We also saw some of this overrating in the summer of 2021, when there was a strange clamour in general (and some on here) for Moeen to return to the test side, as though he could recreate the series v South Africa in 2017 when he was world-class. He duly returned and didn't.

In ODIs, Moeen has the batting ability of someone like Curran/Woakes/Willey, but whereas those three are in the side primarily for their bowling, Moeen is in it primarily for the batting aspect.

Moeen's best format is still T20, where he can still do a job. He had on paper a strong 2022 with the bat, where he had a strike-rate of nearly 160 and an average of over 30...albeit his strongest performances came in the bilateral games, not at the World Cup itself.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2023/01/30/alex-hales-will-miss-england-tour-bangladesh-pakistan-super/

Alex Hales will miss the tour of Bangladesh to honour commitments to some T20 franchise in the Pakistan Super League.

Spoiler:

Money is the dirty word in these circumstances but the truth is that the stronger leagues (obviously IPL is way out in front but PSL and CPL are also strong) are frequently a higher standard of cricket. Bilateral T20i's even between the big three are often a lower standard than strong franchise cricket with rare exceptions being the build up to World Cups when sides are closer to full strength. It makes these games so pointless.

It wouldn't surprise me if part the reason coaches, selectors and boards aren't as bothered by these scenarios is that it exposes their stronger and experienced players to a higher standard whilst opening up spots for a Phil Salt, Will Jacks, Will Smeed, etc to get looked at.

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Since too many posts were made, this topic has been divided automatically. You can find the rest of this topic here :
https://www.606v2.com/t70968-england-s-winter-of-cricket-2022-23