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2022 T20 World Cup thread

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 04 Nov 2022, 8:53 am

First topic message reminder :

GSC wrote:Marsh put down, Aus right on the edge

Might have been the turning point of this one
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Post by Duty281 Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:20 am

That's a real shame to see, Shaheen going off.

Pakistan now have 24 of the remaining 29 balls to come from a fifth/sixth/seventh bowler.

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Post by alfie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:22 am

Ah that's bad luck for Pakistan ...and Afridi. He tried , but that injury didn't look good.

Iftikhar to tidy up...this is surely an opportunity for England...

Yes...four , six...nearly there now thumbsup

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Post by GSC Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:23 am

4 and 6 from Stokes, that injury proving pivotal
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Post by GSC Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:24 am

2 more boundaries to Moenn and the game might be up now
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Post by Duty281 Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:26 am

England getting home now. Don't really think there was ever any danger of them falling short in this chase. Even if Shaheen had been fit to bowl, Pakistan still would have had 12 balls to come from the fifth bowler which would have been vital.

Unfortunately, we'll never hear the end of Shaheen's injury from the England haters, who will claim England were lucky, fortunate etc. Never mind the fact that England came into this final missing near half of the first choice team due to injury!

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Post by GSC Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:27 am

Top edge from Moenn finds the boundary and it's 12 from 3
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Post by alfie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:27 am

Moeen cashing in too now... Seems that Afridi injury has basically robbed the world of a tense finish.

Not going to go with "England lucky " tonight...but certainly Pakistan can say they've been UN-lucky.


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Post by GSC Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:29 am

Think it's more Pakistan were 15-20 runs short to be honest. England have played the occasion a bit in this chase, but they've spent most of it in second gear
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Post by GSC Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:33 am

Moenn bowled, 6 still needed from 10
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Post by alfie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:34 am

GSC wrote:Think it's more Pakistan were 15-20 runs short to be honest. England have played the occasion a bit in this chase, but they've spent most of it in second gear

Oh I think they were indeed at least 15 short. And - even if England have faltered a bit at times in this chase , they've been just about on course throughout. But Afridi breaking down has removed the real tension from these death overs.

Moeen gone now but he's done his job. Livingstone just needs to knock it around now ...or whack one into the crowd...

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Post by alfie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:37 am

Good day for Stokes to get his first ever t20 fifty ...

Didn't need any overthrows either Smile

Well done England clapclapclap

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Post by GSC Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:37 am

Sir Ben Stokes does it again.

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Post by GSC Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:39 am

Hard for Pakistan, really gave that everything and then some. But just didn't have enough to bowl at in the end
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:41 am

Stokes does it again, no player you'd rather have out in the middle in that situation. Postmen Ben.

Sam Curran MOTM however, 3-12 in a final is sublime. I've had my reservations about him in the past but one of the finest T20 bowlers in the world now.

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Post by alfie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:48 am

Yes Sam is my man of the tournament , as well as the match. He has been consistently brilliant .

Really glad for Moeen to be part of this win , after losing his spot for the finals in 2019. Also Hales.

But you just can't keep Stokes out of the climax of these WC finals , can you ? One way or the other , he always decides the result !

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Post by Duty281 Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:50 am

Champions again! The first dual holders of the 50-over and 20-over crowns. Yahoo

Amazing achievement from England. Growing up, England were usually terrible at limited-overs cricket, and years behind the likes of India and Australia in the way the game was played, so to write the above is very strange.

This win now gives greater justice to the white-ball revolution that England have undertaken since the 2015 debacle. There's been a fair bit of frustration in the trophy department in this regard - falling short in the World T20 final in 2016, and disappointing semi-final exits in the 2017 Champions Trophy and last year's World T20. But two trophies, one on foreign soil, underlines how far England have come. In India next year for the World Cup is this team's Everest. If England can triumph there then this unit enter the discussion of being the greatest limited-overs side of all time, and they also have a shot of defending this trophy in two years time.

And England fully deserved this win today and the trophy overall. A dominant performance in both knockout games. Curran (player of the tournament) and Rashid world-class with their bowling today, and Stokes being the valuable glue in the innings once again with the only half-century of the final. He likes the big occasion, doesn't he? This game, the 2019 final and Headingley in 2019, plus many more. Stokes is, simply, one of the greatest cricketers England has ever had. And there's still more to come. I hope he reverses the retirement in ODIs for next year's World Cup.

As mentioned, also, England have done this while missing five players through injury - Bairstow, Malan, Wood, Archer and Mills - which makes the achievement all the greater. Plus the upheaval with the team that's happened over the past year - Roy falling out of form, Morgan retiring, a change of coach.

Sympathies to Pakistan. Losing Shaheen was a cruel blow, but I don't think they can have many complaints because 137 never looked like being enough. They had a very odd tournament, a very Pakistan tournament, but peaked in the semi-final after a slow start. Their batting never fired consistently as it has the potential to do, and they needed Shadab to match Rashid in the bowling department today but he didn't. They've got a good young core to this squad, so I reckon the future's bright for them in 50 over and 20 over cricket. I think they'll go well in India next year.

Really good tournament overall. Some excellent games, lots of drama and some brilliant cricket. The rain probably meant it fell just short of being a truly great tournament. I'm disappointed they're changing the format for 2024, which I think works really well in its current state.

Well done, England!

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Post by alfie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:57 am

And pleased to see the official judges had the good sense to agree with my choice of Sam Curran for player of the tournament Smile

Not sure many would have thought in advance that he would turn out to be the key bowler for England in a WC held in Australia !

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Post by JDizzle Sun 13 Nov 2022, 12:04 pm

alfie wrote:Yes Sam is my man of the tournament , as well as the match. He has been consistently brilliant .

Really glad for Moeen to be part of this win , after losing his spot for the finals in 2019. Also Hales.

But you just can't keep Stokes out of the climax of these WC finals , can you ? One way or the other , he always decides the result !

And David Willey - who was a fixture in the ODI side leading up to the 2019 WC, but missed out in the final squad when Jofra hit the scene. Didn’t play a game, but deserves his medal.

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Post by alfie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 12:10 pm

JDizzle wrote:
alfie wrote:Yes Sam is my man of the tournament , as well as the match. He has been consistently brilliant .

Really glad for Moeen to be part of this win , after losing his spot for the finals in 2019. Also Hales.

But you just can't keep Stokes out of the climax of these WC finals , can you ? One way or the other , he always decides the result !

And David Willey - who was a fixture in the ODI side leading up to the 2019 WC, but missed out in the final squad when Jofra hit the scene. Didn’t play a game, but deserves his medal.

Very true. I was a little disappointed that Willey didn't get at least a run out in one of the group games (reckon he would not have let them down) ; but as you say - part of the squad so part of the win thumbsup

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Post by Duty281 Sun 13 Nov 2022, 1:17 pm

Team of the tournament by my reckoning: Buttler; Hales; Kohli; Yadav; Stokes; Phillips; Raza; Santner; Curran; Shaheen; Nortje (reasoning below):

Spoiler:

I think the top five are beyond dispute, as is Curran and probably Shaheen, but the others can be argued!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 13 Nov 2022, 2:14 pm

Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

Watched the game on the train on the way home, never felt we were in any trouble during the chase really - as Duty has astutely pointed out during the game itself, Pakistan always had 2 overs of Wasim (And/or another bowler) to bowl, and while the Afridi injury was unfortunate, we still did only need 8/9 an over even if he was around to bowl - he's good, but not unhittable at the death either (much better up front in the powerplay).

Just a superb bowling performance from England - they're really exceeded my expectations in that department. Curran was magnificent in pretty much every game, and Rashid in the three basically "knockout" games has been 10/10, world class. What an unbelievable spell again today, again as Duty says after Livingstone goes for 16 and Pakistan have some momentum in their innings, to bowl a wicket maiden including the wicket of Babar, that was the match winning moment. Curran and Jordan followed it up with superb death over spells too, really really happy for Chris Jordan to have a redemption moment after what happened against NZ last year in the semi final.

As for the batting, thought Buttler did superb in the powerplay (shame he got out, but to a brilliant delivery). To take on Naseem and Shaheen like he did, really did mean we were never under any run rate pressure and also meant they couldn't get an over of Shadab or Wasim in during the PP, for fear of what he'd do. Moeen with a lovely cameo too, but obviously Stokes was Stokes - that is why they brought him into the side (I hold my hands up, I wasn't sure he should have been, how dumb am I!), he's just got that "IT" factor about him as a bloke, and again when someone needed to play that innings, he did so.

I would have to disagree with Duty once though - this England white ball side are in the discussions for being one of the greatest limited over white ball sides of all time already - a World Cup win in India next year would make it indisputable in my opinion. It's been a genuine joy to follow them since that 2015 WC abomination and change in culture, of course the odd hiccup along the way, but a great bunch of blokes, playing thoroughly entertaining cricket around the globe in various conditions, and giving some of the best sporting moments England sporting fans will ever get along the way too, not only in World Cups but in various bi-lateral series too. One of those teams you'll remember forever.

Looking forward to seeing how they build towards India next year now - as this tournament has evidenced, still lots of strength in depth around, and players pushing for places of some of these now almost legendary players.
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Post by KP_fan Sun 13 Nov 2022, 3:09 pm

Congratulations to Eng and their fans on a remarkable world cup win
2022 T20 World Cup thread - Page 13 1f44c  2022 T20 World Cup thread - Page 13 1f44c

It's an astounding feat to be champions of ODIs and T20s and be on a test match winning spree chasing down unheard of totals with consistency against top sides like Ind, NZ and SA.

They can crown this with a win a series win in sub continent and an Ashes win.But even if they don't, doesn't take away any sheen from this world cup win.

How does Eng do it? I think as follows:

1. They are self critical in cricket and generally as a nation.
Identify their problems & weaknesses.

2. Eng cricket team unit has a level of mental sharpness /collective intellect higher than any other team.....barring NZ who i think are equally good.
Therefore Eng can plan, strategize,execute on the field.
They are sharp to smell moments and win them.
Only NZ equals them in my view.
Else in terms of raw talent.....Ind, Pak, SA and Aus exceed Eng.

3. Stokes, raises the level of his game to super-man levels at moments that matter.
When dust settles and only stats are looked at of great allrounders...stats only will not reveal the impact he made in at his prime in his era

An applause for Pak....with a paltry total...put the fear of defeat in Eng and were at parity with about 5 overs to go IMO.
That they  lost Afridi was a telling blow, more so psychologically
They could have kept Afridi out of the mind...and out of bowling...bowled other top bowlers and brought the weaker bowler taking the game deeper into last 2 overs.

Eng / Stokes smelt and seized the moment...without the need of a drinks boy bringing instructions from dressing room ( my  point no. 2 above)

End of what I think was a fascinating & enjoyable world cup.
Lot for India and Aus to ponder....both carrying too much of past expiry date stuff.


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Post by Duty281 Sun 13 Nov 2022, 3:23 pm

The build and rebuild of the England limited-overs team will be tricky to navigate.

For the 50-over stuff - keep the current core in the run-up to India, and use them for the actual tournament itself. Then the tricky bit. After 2023, England have to be ruthless and that could involve difficult decisions. The team they need to use for the ODIs in 2024/2025/2026 etc. should be the team they're aiming to field for the first game at the 2027 ODI World Cup. The 2025 Champions Trophy can be used as a dry run, tournament experience for the less experienced players. But they will have to make decisions that involve axing popular and long-standing players after the 2023 ODI World Cup. It's no good retaining the current core of players, using them in 2024/2025, and then watch some of them either retire or fall off entirely in around 2025/2026, resulting in a need to play inexperienced players in 2027.

20 over game - the World Cups come every two years and it's franchise stuff that drives selection, not the often pointless bilateral series that make up odd places in the calendar, so this makes England selection easier. The bulk of the core of this current squad should be able to make it to 2024, but beyond that is another matter. Still, whoever England select will be getting plenty of T20 cricket on the franchise circuit, unlike the 50-over stuff which is currently harder to come by.

Just looking at the ages of some of these England players - Buttler 32, Moeen 35, Hales 33, Jordan 34, Malan 35, Mills 30, Rashid 34, Stokes 31, Willey 32, Woakes 33, Wood 32, Bairstow 33. Only two players aged under 25 were used by England at this tournament - Curran and Brook. There's a lot of talent coming through, so I'm sure a rebuild can be successful. It won't be like the England RU team post-2003.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 13 Nov 2022, 7:04 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

Watched the game on the train on the way home, never felt we were in any trouble during the chase really - as Duty has astutely pointed out during the game itself, Pakistan always had 2 overs of Wasim (And/or another bowler) to bowl, and while the Afridi injury was unfortunate, we still did only need 8/9 an over even if he was around to bowl - he's good, but not unhittable at the death either (much better up front in the powerplay).

Just a superb bowling performance from England - they're really exceeded my expectations in that department. Curran was magnificent in pretty much every game, and Rashid in the three basically "knockout" games has been 10/10, world class. What an unbelievable spell again today, again as Duty says after Livingstone goes for 16 and Pakistan have some momentum in their innings, to bowl a wicket maiden including the wicket of Babar, that was the match winning moment. Curran and Jordan followed it up with superb death over spells too, really really happy for Chris Jordan to have a redemption moment after what happened against NZ last year in the semi final.

As for the batting, thought Buttler did superb in the powerplay (shame he got out, but to a brilliant delivery). To take on Naseem and Shaheen like he did, really did mean we were never under any run rate pressure and also meant they couldn't get an over of Shadab or Wasim in during the PP, for fear of what he'd do. Moeen with a lovely cameo too, but obviously Stokes was Stokes - that is why they brought him into the side (I hold my hands up, I wasn't sure he should have been, how dumb am I!), he's just got that "IT" factor about him as a bloke, and again when someone needed to play that innings, he did so.

I would have to disagree with Duty once though - this England white ball side are in the discussions for being one of the greatest limited over white ball sides of all time already - a World Cup win in India next year would make it indisputable in my opinion. It's been a genuine joy to follow them since that 2015 WC abomination and change in culture, of course the odd hiccup along the way, but a great bunch of blokes, playing thoroughly entertaining cricket around the globe in various conditions, and giving some of the best sporting moments England sporting fans will ever get along the way too, not only in World Cups but in various bi-lateral series too. One of those teams you'll remember forever.

Looking forward to seeing how they build towards India next year now - as this tournament has evidenced, still lots of strength in depth around, and players pushing for places of some of these now almost legendary players.
I was going to write my own post having read through much of the above but you've said most my thoughts for me, Olly. 

A fantastic win. I'm just delighted that this white ball team has more than one major trophy to show for their success and performances now. I'm particularly delighted for Buttler, after some flack since taking the captaincy, and Stokes, some flack around his general T20i selection.

Surran has had a brilliant tournament. I'd said for a while I thought his combination of lower order hitting and left-arm angle made him a better T20 player than some gave him credit for. I honestly didn't think he had this sort of ceiling purely as a bowler in T20 cricket though. He's had a superb tournament.

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Post by VTR Sun 13 Nov 2022, 7:58 pm

Agree, most that can be said has been said by others. One of those days where I mostly had to make do with score updates, and not all that often at times, but that was comfortable by English sporting standards

Particularly pleased for Chris Jordan. We all know he has an expensive spell in him but he was great in the two knockout matches. Plus, he deserves a winners medal after bowling such a good 19th over in 2016, which most times would have virtually won the final.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Sun 13 Nov 2022, 11:06 pm

Congratulations, England. Outstanding performance in all aspects.

Not bad for a team that can't set totals, can't chase scores, has a poor mentality, thinks they are better than they really are, can't bowl in the powerplay and has no death bowling. Remarkable how they managed to win with such a poor team.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by alfie Mon 14 Nov 2022, 5:50 am

Nice to be able to bask in the warm afterglow of WC success...

Even more so here in Melbourne as I have to report that it was extremely fortunate the game was completed last night : it started to really hammer down about three hours later and has hardly stopped raining all day ... would not have been much chance of play this afternoon , I suspect.

Think the accolades have been well handed out in many posts above so not much I could add. Certainly the whiteball outfit will be looking to further enhance their already impressive record next year. I think they still have a bit to do to rank with the Australian and West Indian sides of earlier decades who won successive World Cups at 50 over and didn't have the opportunity to add 20 over success ; but they have the class to do so and just need to nail another title (or more than one !) in the next few years... Duty's thoughts on the best way to handle regular reinvigoration of the squad in the future should provide plenty of room for discussion as we go on !
It is true many of the current team are no longer in the "young and still developing" category , and so much cricket is now being played that Stokes may not be the last to decide to opt out of one form or another : the good thing for this team is that the core look to be mostly already settled as specialists in the shorter forms of the game , at least at International level ; so the clashes with Test Match interests may not be as unsettling as they once might have been.
I am in no hurry to pension off any of this lot , by the way ! (Though it is possible Jordan might be happy to pocket this triumph as a fitting end for his already distinguished career) But with the likes of Jacks and a few other young guns coming through it will be interesting to see how things work out over the (very busy !) calendar for the next few years...

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Post by JDizzle Mon 14 Nov 2022, 10:34 am

Another plus point, winning a T20 WC is perfect preparation for the three match Dettol ODI Series between England and Aus starting this week.

Cricket is mad.

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Post by Pal Joey Mon 14 Nov 2022, 10:36 am

JDizzle wrote:Another plus point, winning a T20 WC is perfect preparation for the three match Dettol ODI Series between England and Aus starting this week.

Cricket is mad.

Indeed... it's almost infectious at the moment. Dettol is a good choice of sponsor!

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Post by VTR Mon 14 Nov 2022, 12:26 pm

Only learned of that series when I saw an article about Moeen rightly complaining about it. Could easily be 3-0 Australia, and I for one will not care a bit

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Post by Duty281 Mon 14 Nov 2022, 12:36 pm

Yeah, good on Moeen for complaining. One somewhat interesting thing to note is that, had Covid not happened, the ODI World Cup would be in just a few months time (February/March was the original scheduled date), which seems like mad scheduling with it being so close to this T20 World Cup.

I'm guessing this ODI series was envisaged as a warm-up for the World Cup, as it's not part of the Super League. They should have just scrapped it as England's winter has a ludicrous schedule already.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 14 Nov 2022, 12:40 pm

JDizzle wrote:Another plus point, winning a T20 WC is perfect preparation for the three match Dettol ODI Series between England and Aus starting this week.

Cricket is mad.

NZ-India also start a T20 series in four days time. Guess it's never too early to begin the preparations for 2024!

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Post by alfie Tue 15 Nov 2022, 2:08 am

JDizzle wrote:Another plus point, winning a T20 WC is perfect preparation for the three match Dettol ODI Series between England and Aus starting this week.

Cricket is mad.

Can never have too much cricket , eh ?  

Hardly surprisingly , local media is reporting that "ticket sales for these matches are underwhelming" . Not sure too many will be very concerned about the results of these games !

Not to worry. I understand there is some other sporting event starting shortly that may attract a bit of attention from quite a lot of people Smile

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Post by dummy_half Tue 15 Nov 2022, 10:03 am

Congratulations England on winning the T20 - as I noted earlier, the two teams capable of the best performances made the final, but probably fair to say only England's bowlers really hit their peak in the final - batting did well enough to keep the chase comfortable.

The one issue England have in T20 and ODI is that the side is old bordering on geriatric - I see Duty has already listed out the 30+ guys, and noted that we only have a couple of young (<25 year old) players in the team. OK, the next 50 over WC is close enough to retain the core of this side (plus Root, another 30something), but it will definitely be time to look at changes afterwards. My biggest concern in that regard is the replacement for Rashid, as leg spin or mystery spin is so important in both curbing the run rate and taking wickets through the middle overs of both T20 and ODI, and fair to say that England's record at unearthing such bowlers is not always that great.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 15 Nov 2022, 10:15 am

Having an ageing side isn't unique to England; Australia, New Zealand, India and Pakistan all have their fair share of 30+ players too. After the next 50 over world cup I think we're going to see a lot of teams reset.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 15 Nov 2022, 11:58 am

dummy_half wrote:Congratulations England on winning the T20 - as I noted earlier, the two teams capable of the best performances made the final, but probably fair to say only England's bowlers really hit their peak in the final - batting did well enough to keep the chase comfortable.

The one issue England have in T20 and ODI is that the side is old bordering on geriatric - I see Duty has already listed out the 30+ guys, and noted that we only have a couple of young (<25 year old) players in the team. OK, the next 50 over WC is close enough to retain the core of this side (plus Root, another 30something), but it will definitely be time to look at changes afterwards. My biggest concern in that regard is the replacement for Rashid, as leg spin or mystery spin is so important in both curbing the run rate and taking wickets through the middle overs of both T20 and ODI, and fair to say that England's record at unearthing such bowlers is not always that great.

Dummy - please find the information leaflet and joining instructions me and JDizzle have produced for the Rehan Ahmed fanclub
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Post by Duty281 Tue 15 Nov 2022, 12:22 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Having an ageing side isn't unique to England; Australia, New Zealand, India and Pakistan all have their fair share of 30+ players too. After the next 50 over world cup I think we're going to see a lot of teams reset.

Pakistan have a really good young core to their squad - 7 of their 15-man squad are under 25, and only 4 were 30+. Makes them an outlier compared to those other four teams.

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Post by dummy_half Tue 15 Nov 2022, 1:40 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:Congratulations England on winning the T20 - as I noted earlier, the two teams capable of the best performances made the final, but probably fair to say only England's bowlers really hit their peak in the final - batting did well enough to keep the chase comfortable.

The one issue England have in T20 and ODI is that the side is old bordering on geriatric - I see Duty has already listed out the 30+ guys, and noted that we only have a couple of young (<25 year old) players in the team. OK, the next 50 over WC is close enough to retain the core of this side (plus Root, another 30something), but it will definitely be time to look at changes afterwards. My biggest concern in that regard is the replacement for Rashid, as leg spin or mystery spin is so important in both curbing the run rate and taking wickets through the middle overs of both T20 and ODI, and fair to say that England's record at unearthing such bowlers is not always that great.

Dummy - please find the information leaflet and joining instructions me and JDizzle have produced for the Rehan Ahmed fanclub

He's very young isn't he? And for every Rashid England have produced, there have been plenty of Salisburys. Borthwicks etc who didn't quite have the ability at international level.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Tue 15 Nov 2022, 2:01 pm

So England won, I must have been drunk for a few days there thumbsup

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Post by king_carlos Tue 15 Nov 2022, 2:12 pm

I have a feeling we may see Dawson used to ease Dilly's workload a bit until the ODI World Cup. Dilly seems to be bowling more out the front of the hand these days which suggests he's either struggling to bowl the googly as much or struggling to get the same revs on it since the shoulder injury. I could see them trying to use Dawson and Moeen as spinners who turn the balls different ways to bridge a gap there. Not ideal but this white ball unit do seem to have that ability of fitting players into the machine well.

Surran in this tournament is a great example. Being a shorter, not particularly fast swing bowler who has swung the white ball less in recent times and previously hadn't shown a go to slower ball he really doesn't jump out as a death bowler. Yet the machine needed a death bowler so they got Surran to bowl into the pitch and somehow it worked!

1.Roy/Hales/Salt/Vince
2.Bairstow
3.Root
4.Stokes
5.Buttler (wk)
6.Livingstone
7.Moeen
8.Surran
9.Woakes
10.Rashid/Dawson
11.Wood/Archer/Stone

Maybe a team makeup something like that coming? Lots of bowling options and batting very deep again.

Parkinson has fantastic white ball stats but not much exposure in top leagues. Getting him that exposure whilst still developing as a red ball player will be a challenge though. If I were Mott I'd be really pushing Parkinson to consider the stronger leagues below IPL level though. PSL is probably the best fit there. BBL has slipped a bit whilst the CPL coincides with the English summer.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 15 Nov 2022, 2:34 pm

The one advantage of the ODI World Cup being delayed to the autumn is that it increases the chances of England being able to play Jofra - and not just play him, but play him when he's had a run of games and is hopefully sharper and close to his best. Equally, Bairstow as well should have recovered by the time the ODI World Cup is played, this may not have been the case had it been played in February, as originally intended.

I just think that if England have got a fully-fit Jofra, who's near or at his best, then they have a very real chance of climbing Everest and making it two ODI World Cups in a row, which would be one of the greatest achievements in English sport.

I hope Stokes comes out of retirement for it as well. That would be a huge boost and a lift to the whole squad. There's no one in world cricket you'd rather have, out in the middle, in a situation where England require 60 off 45 balls and are six wickets down, than Ben Stokes.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 15 Nov 2022, 2:55 pm

I'd be more surprised if Stokes wasn't there for the CWC than if he was I must say. He clearly loves the big occasion (if you perform like that why wouldn't you!) and that England group clearly love having him there. He's also very close with Buttler so I expect if Jos said, "Ben I need you out there", he would be in a heartbeat. Stokes is that sort of character. The Ashes series felt a bit like that but from the negative side of it. Stokes seemed far from ready and looked very rough with the bat but the side needed their second best Test player and he nearly had 4 functioning limbs so there Ben was!

Rest him for as many of the meaningless bilateral series as possible and play him when it really matters is very much my view.

Jofra transforms the ODI side though for sure. He's so good at the top and death. Woakes and Jofra up top are a fantastic partnership. If Surran can keep this improvement as a death bowler going then you've also got two go to death bowlers at the end.

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Post by dummy_half Tue 15 Nov 2022, 4:31 pm

I can see Stokes not playing any ODI cricket until immediately before the WC - he definintely needs to ease the mental pressure hs's under, and that seems the best way at the moment. But yes, I think the goal of retaining the 50 over title will be too strong an appeal for him

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Post by VTR Tue 15 Nov 2022, 8:01 pm

My fear for Archer, and I really hope I am wrong, is that he's another Simon Jones. It feels a bit now or never on his next injury return

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Post by alfie Wed 16 Nov 2022, 5:02 am

I too have some hope that Stokes will be persuaded to turn out for the 50 over WC : no real need to have him play any of the "other" 50 over games - or any of the unimportant t20 ones in the meantime , for that matter. So as long as his fitness stays fine he could be sufficiently rested to make himself available. Still a long way off though so can jump that fence when it approaches...and for the time being let us see how well they can re-construct a side in his absence - starting with this (necessarily undermanned ) squad playing Australia...

As for Archer : again we can hope. Not counting that particular chicken until I actually see him complete a few games without further damage though. I share VTR's concerns on that score.

Rehan Ahmed is going to be a fascinating watch so I hope he gets a few opportunities to show us what he can do soon...

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Post by eirebilly_01 Wed 16 Nov 2022, 11:47 am

I honestly do not get the obsession with Archer. Yes he had a very good WC in 19 but he has hardly played at all since. For me, if fit, he does not simply walk back into the side as England have loads of talent there now, especially with Wood.
He would have to prove himself and earn a spot.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 16 Nov 2022, 11:56 am

eirebilly_01 wrote:I honestly do not get the obsession with Archer. Yes he had a very good WC in 19 but he has hardly played at all since. For me, if fit, he does not simply walk back into the side as England have loads of talent there now, especially with Wood.
He would have to prove himself and earn a spot.

He's the cricket equivalent of Manu Tuilagi, if he's fit he walks into the side. A genuine fast bowler who can bowl effectively at any point of the innings is gold dust, he honestly is that good.

A decent comparison is there average 10 over spell in ODI's.

Archer: 2/48
Wood: 1.4/55

That's a not an insignificant difference.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 16 Nov 2022, 12:41 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
eirebilly_01 wrote:I honestly do not get the obsession with Archer. Yes he had a very good WC in 19 but he has hardly played at all since. For me, if fit, he does not simply walk back into the side as England have loads of talent there now, especially with Wood.
He would have to prove himself and earn a spot.

He's the cricket equivalent of Manu Tuilagi, if he's fit he walks into the side. A genuine fast bowler who can bowl effectively at any point of the innings is gold dust, he honestly is that good.

A decent comparison is there average 10 over spell in ODI's.

Archer: 2/48
Wood: 1.4/55

That's a not an insignificant difference.

Stats aside, the list of bowlers who are elite with the new ball and at the death in white ball cricket stands at 2. Bumrah and Archer, with Shaheen closing in if his death bowling improves. They are so rare.

And we only saw flashes of it in his short career, but Jof’s ability to shape and seam the ball in Tests is something Wood can’t really offer.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Wed 16 Nov 2022, 1:16 pm

I am not saying that Archer was a bad bowler, far from it. For the short period he had, he was excellent. I am saying that he has been away for so long so for me, he does not simply walk into the team. He will need to prove himself again. How can we be sure that he is up to his old speed and accuracy without trying him out first? It even could be as little as 3-5 games to prove himself.
Just right now, there are players ahead of him. Stats are great but i believe that Wood is improving with every game so his stats may improve as well.

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