[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

by king_carlos Sat 7 Jan 2023 - 22:55

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 5:48

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Well the French have just given Smith potm.

He certainly didn't look like he was coming back from an injury did he.

A few things weren't quite clicking for him in the first half but the more the match went on the better he looked. Didn't seem any fitness issues either. Borthwick has got a but of a head ache for selection. May bench Farrell.

by BamBam Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 9:36

https://twitter.com/timessport/status/1614751293733494784?s=12

EXCLUSIVE: Eddie Jones has been appointed the Australia head coach on a five-year deal after Dave Rennie was sacked. The 62-year-old could now coach against his former team at this year’s World Cup |

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 11:41

Telegraph reckons Nowell and May could both miss out on selection.

The press always seemed to get leaks of Lancaster's squads, and rarely got any hints about Jones' selections, so it'll be interesting to see how accurate their reports on Borthwick's choices will turn out to be.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 15:17

BamBam wrote:https://twitter.com/timessport/status/1614751293733494784?s=12

EXCLUSIVE: Eddie Jones has been appointed the Australia head coach on a five-year deal after Dave Rennie was sacked. The 62-year-old could now coach against his former team at this year’s World Cup |

They haven't messed around......could see Aus been a real threat this WC.

Apparently Evans is only filling in as attack coach because Borthwick has somebody lined up for the position (Sam Vesty?).

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 17:38

Nick Easter:

“My selections are based upon four simple concepts:

Develop a style that is aligned to club rugby in the Premiership
Pick the best set piece; you cannot win Test matches consistently without a world-class lineout and scrum.
Pick supporting players around the main acts that give them something they’re accustomed to at club level and thus gives them the best chance of success.
Pick gas – there’s no substitute for pace.

Nick Easter’s 36-man England Squad for the 2023 Six Nations

Back three: Tommy Freeman, Max Malins, Cadan Murley, Freddie Steward, Elliott Daly (5)

Centres: Manu Tuilagi, Dan Kelly, Ollie Lawrence, Henry Slade, Joe Marchant (5)

Fly-halves: Owen Farrell, George Ford, Marcus Smith (3)

Scrum-halves: Jack van Poortvliet, Raffi Quirke, Ben Youngs (3)

Back-row: Courtney Lawes, Jack Willis, Tom Willis, Alex Dombrandt, Ben Earl, Ted Hill, Ben Curry (7)

Lock: Jonny Hill, Ollie Chessum, Maro Itoje, David Ribbans (4)

Props: Val Rapava-Ruskin, Ellis Genge, Joe Heyes, Trevor Davison, Dan Cole, Kyle Sinckler (6)

Hooker: George McGuigan, Jamie George, Jamie Blamire (3)

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 18:00

Well Jones is a country mile better than Rennie. Suddenly looks a harder game for anyone playing Aus.

by Geordie Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 19:35

Well if Ted Hill doesnt start at 6 for England im questioning SB already. If you need more from a 6...i didnt know what it is...

by mountain man Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 20:00

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph reckons Nowell and May could both miss out on selection.

The press always seemed to get leaks of Lancaster's squads, and rarely got any hints about Jones' selections, so it'll be interesting to see how accurate their reports on Borthwick's choices will turn out to be.

No great loss, Nowell not quick enough and May lost his mojo. Better wings available for sure.

by lostinwales Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 20:17

mountain man wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph reckons Nowell and May could both miss out on selection.

The press always seemed to get leaks of Lancaster's squads, and rarely got any hints about Jones' selections, so it'll be interesting to see how accurate their reports on Borthwick's choices will turn out to be.

No great loss, Nowell not quick enough and May lost his mojo. Better wings available for sure.

Nowell definitely feels like a spent force. May not so sure - he's still got the work rate and knows where he needs to be, but he's definitely close to the end. It wouldn't be a surprise though.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 20:18

Let's hope Nick Easter is on the money because that squad ticks a lot of boxes from my perspective.

Only adjustment I might be tempted to make would be a real flyer like Radwan or OHC for Malins. Maybe Marler for Davison if Joe actually wants to be involved.

by Geordie Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 20:25

formerly known as Sam wrote:Let's hope Nick Easter is on the money because that squad ticks a lot of boxes from my perspective.

Only adjustment I might be tempted to make would be a real flyer like Radwan or OHC for Malins. Maybe Marler for Davison if Joe actually wants to be involved.

Is he actually worth his spot?

by formerly known as Sam Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 20:28

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Let's hope Nick Easter is on the money because that squad ticks a lot of boxes from my perspective.

Only adjustment I might be tempted to make would be a real flyer like Radwan or OHC for Malins. Maybe Marler for Davison if Joe actually wants to be involved.

Is he actually worth his spot?

That's why I went with maybe. He's certainly our best scrummaging loosehead and he has a good relationship with Borthwick so perhaps Steve and Kev could get him in the best mindset to deliver. Whilst he is playing well for Quins he does seem a bit more fiesty than usual which isn't necessarily a good thing with Marler.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 20:33

If he intends to go with Genge as clear first choice and if Rapava-Ruskin comes in as the bench option he may also want to go with a younger player like Baxter or Whitcombe as they're unlikely to make the pitch too often but gets their feet under the table. I know that the 'apprentices' started to get stick in Jones' tenure but it makes a lot of sense to get people into the environment.
Marler does remain a very good player though.

by lostinwales Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 20:34

formerly known as Sam wrote:Let's hope Nick Easter is on the money because that squad ticks a lot of boxes from my perspective.

Only adjustment I might be tempted to make would be a real flyer like Radwan or OHC for Malins. Maybe Marler for Davison if Joe actually wants to be involved.

Agreed.

Its hard to know how players who struggled under Jones will work under Borthwick, but Malins was someone who didn't impress despite having a strong all round skill set.

by Geordie Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 20:42

Why would he not pick OHC in his squad anyway? Especailly if he was trying to get him for Tigers.

Hes big, strong, quick, finishes well...

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 20:55

Geordie wrote:Why would he not pick OHC in his squad anyway? Especailly if he was trying to get him for Tigers.

Hes big, strong, quick, finishes well...

Lack of room if he intends to pick Potter?

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:12

You'd have to imagine that Easter squad wouldn't be a million miles away.

Personally I'd take out JVP, McGuigan, Kelly, Maillins and J.Willis....swapping with Mitchell, Radwan, Walker, Underhill.

Davsion is better on the tight for me too....and certainly not one of the better LH's around. I'd question his inclusion too.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:20

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You'd have to imagine that Easter squad wouldn't be a million miles away.

Personally I'd take out JVP, McGuigan, Kelly, Maillins and J.Willis....swapping with Mitchell, Radwan, Walker, Underhill.

Davsion is better on the tight for me too....and certainly not one of the better LH's around. I'd question his inclusion too.

You still haven't really given much detail in why you'd drop vP and Kelly. Both class young players who will just get better. Walker is very good around the park and in the scrum but I've seen his lineout throwing go down the pan 3 or 4 games recently. He was a big contributor to Harlequins loss yesterday.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:22

7 minutes to find out anyway.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:24

I don't rate McGuigan highly enough to play Int rugby, he just lacks the size and physicality.

by mountain man Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:27

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't rate McGuigan highly enough to play Int rugby, he just lacks the size and physicality.

Well fair enough, I rate McGuigan but he's not big as you say but I'd have him in squad.
I'm puzzled though to your antipathy to JvP, one poor game for Eng but otherwise he's been very good.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:29

I wouldn't rate JvP out forever, but I just don't see that much in him and I don't think he's playing well. I think Quirke and Mitchell are much better players...nothing past that really.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:32

Think I preferred Nick Easters squad.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:33

Forwards
Ollie Chessum

Dan Cole

Ben Curry

Alex Dombrandt

Ben Earl

Ellis Genge

Jamie George

Joe Heyes

Jonny Hill

Nick Isiekwe

Maro Itoje

Courtney Lawes

Lewis Ludlam

George McGuigan (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)

Bevan Rodd

Sam Simmonds

Kyle Sinckler

Mako Vunipola

Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)

Jack Willis

Backs
Elliot Daly

Owen Farrell

Tommy Freeman

Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish, uncapped)

Dan Kelly

Max Malins

Joe Marchant

Alex Mitchell

Cadan Murley (Harlequins, uncapped)

Henry Slade

Fin Smith (Northampton Saints, uncapped)

Marcus Smith

Freddie Steward

Manu Tuilagi

Jack van Poortvliet

Ben Youngs

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:37

So.....a breakdown:

LH - Genge, Rodd, Mako
HK - George, Walker, McGuigan
TH - Cole, Sinckler, Heyes

LK - Hill, Isiekwe, Itoje, Chessum, Hill

FL - B.Curry, Earl, Lawes. Ludlam, J.Willis
8 - Dombrandt, Simmonds

9 - Mitchell. Youngs, JvP
10 - M.Smith, F Smith, Farrell

Centre - Kelly, Marchant, Slade, Tuilagi

Wings - Freeman, OHC, Murley
FB - Daly, Steward

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:38

No Hill, no Lawrence, no Ribbans, no Quirke jump out to me.

Then Youngs, Slade, Malins and Vunipola.

At least there's a chance we may see some change to the starting lineup but there's some risk there too.

by Collapse2005 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:40

Did he name captain? Also as Farrell has been named does that mean he will miss the first match from suspension?

Interesting to see if Dan Cole will be selected in match day squads or is he just there for scrum practice.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:41

Finally.....Furlong is out!

I would say the back picks are a little more exciting than the forwards. Out of that. I'd go for:

1. Genge
2. George
2. Cole
4. Hill
5. Itoje
6. Lawes
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt

9. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. OHC/Daly
12. Farrell
13. Marchant
14. Murley
15. Steward

by Cumbrian Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:41

Interesting, it always take me a little while to digest these squads, but I think I like it.

I'm a little surprised to see Simmonds in there and not someone like Ted Hill.

No Tom Willis, despite some of the reports doing the rounds, or Dave Ribbands for that matter.

Glad to see Fin Smith included, it looks like he has made his choice in relation to international allegiance.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:43

No 7&1/2 wrote:No Hill, no Lawrence, no Ribbans, no Quirke jump out to me.

Then Youngs, Slade, Malins and Vunipola.

At least there's a chance we may see some change to the starting lineup but there's some risk there too.

You only notice when people mention.

No Hill.....Geordie will have a heart attack....

Ribbans out is utterly bizarre.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:47

I'd go for

Genge George Sinckler
Itoje Lawes
Willis Curry
Dombrandt
vP M.Smith
H-C Kelly Marchant Murley
Steward

Rodd McGuigan Heyes Chessum Simmonds Mitchell Farrell Freeman

But my call for Borthwick will be

Genge George Sinckler
Itoje Hill
Lawes Willis
Dombrandt
Youngs M.Smith
Malins Farrell Tuilagi Freeman
Steward

Vunipola McGuigan Cole Chessum Earl vP Slade Daly.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:49

I doubt we'd ever see Lawes back in the engine room for England again, I think he's lost too much bulk.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:52

And 2 looseheads that can't scrummage in a Borthwick squad is surprising too.....I don't quite get Rodd tbh, what does he bring?

by mountain man Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:55

No Ollie Lawrence is criminal.
J Hill? Youngs??? Mako??? Cole good this season but for RWC?

Good to see likes of Earl, Dombrandt, Mitchell, Kelly.

by Geordie Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 21:58

What a load of sh1t.

No lawrence, no Hill, no Ribbans just to start....why bother picking on form eh.

by Cumbrian Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:01

From that I would probably pick something like

01. Genge
02. George
03. Sinkler
04. Itoje
05. Chessum
06. Lawes
07. Curry
08. Dombandt

09. JVP
10. Farrell

11. Freeman
12. Tuilagi
13. Slade
14. Daly
15. Steward

by Sharkey06 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:07

I can't see Earl not starting ahead of Curry. Likewise Youngs over JVP. And why pick Marchant knowing he won't be available after the World Cup if you are not going to start him?

England's lack of props who can scrummage is quite worrying.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:14

I'd put money on....

6. Lawes
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt

by Geordie Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:15

So it'll be...

01. Genge
02. George
03. Cole
04. Itoje
05. Hill
06. Lawes
07. Earl (but Willis will have a good shout)
08. Dombandt

09. JVP
10. Farrell

11. Freeman / OHC
12. Kelly
13. Slade
14. Murley
15. Steward

by formerly known as Sam Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:17

No 7&1/2 wrote:No Hill, no Lawrence, no Ribbans, no Quirke jump out to me.

Then Youngs, Slade, Malins and Vunipola.

At least there's a chance we may see some change to the starting lineup but there's some risk there too.

Quirke has only played about 20 mins off the bench at the weekend in the last 3 months so I get that. Real shame on T Hill, Ribbans and Lawrence though. I'm sure they'd have been on the fitness days so maybe they didn't hit the targets he wanted. I'm stretching a bit there.

by Geordie Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:19

Apparently Ted HIll wasnt even on the fitness day Sam...so clearly just not rated.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:21

NO RIBBANS!!!!!!!

He is the form lock this season without any real weaknesses, workrate, lineout, hard yards, open play yards and fantastic offloading game.

Hill, Isiekwe, Itoje, Chessum - definitely going for hybrid mobility with Chessum and Isiekwe but I would have Ribbans ahead off all of them this year. In fact I would have Moon ahead of three of them.

Pleasently surprised to see Ludlam in there and Mitchell

by hugehandoff Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:24

The continued selection of Mako amazes me and at the expense of Marler, our best scrummager, and VPR. No Ribbans is also very strange.

Against Ireland, NZ, France and SA you need your best scrummagers and Mako and Rodd will be leaking pens all day long.

by lostinwales Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:26

Borthwick confirmed Owen Farrell will be England's captain for the tournament, with Ellis Genge and Courtney Lawes, who returns to the squad after injury, named as vice-captains.

by Geordie Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:30

Farrel captain.....meh

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:43

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Finally.....Furlong is out!

I would say the back picks are a little more exciting than the forwards. Out of that. I'd go for:

1. Genge
2. George
2. Cole
4. Hill
5. Itoje
6. Lawes
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt

9. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. OHC/Daly
12. Farrell
13. Marchant
14. Murley
15. Steward

You mean Ireland have been playing him all this time and he is ENGLISH?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:43

Farrell as captain is interesting. Guarantees his starting place really doesn't it? And it'll be at 12.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:49

I think the offload Ribbans did in the AI sealed his fate....can imagine Borthwick watching it and putting a line straight through his name.

by Geordie Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:50

Have some omissions been due to SB only being allowed to make so many changes.

by mountain man Mon 16 Jan 2023 - 22:54

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell as captain is interesting. Guarantees his starting place really doesn't it? And it'll be at 12.

That is a dreadful thought. Could end up with Youngs Smith Farrell at 9 10 12.

Only hope is Farrell starts at 10 with Smith bench.

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