[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. Game was won so its hard on subs sometimes but more time would be beneficial. Not sure the tactic of bring on Isiekwe as a back rower particularly benefits us.

Ah that irritates me. I know he's played 6 alot but so did Launchbury and Kruis etc I see Isiekwe as a lock only now.

There are much better options if they want a large 6 .

Cumbrian wrote:What is his strike rate?  Feels like he has scored a try in every game he has played for England.

Pretty much every touch

My goodness that was encouraging, jack Willis is quality. Intensity dropped off second half as the subs came on too early and Italy had scored a good try at the start. Thought the tmo, touch judges didn't help the ref who stopped reffing the Italians after the penalty try. What drugs was garces on? Was he asleep for all the knock ons, ball bouncing in touch then awarding an Italian throw and generally not looking interested. As for the obstruction for their second it was poor from the officials especially after they chalked off JVPs try. Hey ho.

On the up side some good play by the starters. Smith came on and fluffed pretty much everything he did and again tried too hard. Farrell's inclusion fully justified. Overall 6/10.

BigGee wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Good to see Polledri on.

Probably about the most positive thing about this match so far.

Was this his first game back after the injuries?

First 15 looked pretty decent for England, but seemed to go off the boil as the final 8 were introduced – showing some lack of depth. Except for Henry A of course who has now gratefully accepted the mantle of the saviour of England Rugby after Marcus annoyingly dropped that ball – actually Mitchell looked good. Slade seemed to improve the midfield defence from last week, Lawrence was a bit of a monster, and Willis did the job. I now have just a little confidence that we can pip Wales for 4th place (although Wales and Italy may swap places).

Be nice to find a ref who enjoys the game of rugby enough to watch what’s going on.

England did play well today, but lets not get carries away just yet, Like big LOL says small steps. we play wales next time and after losing like they did against Scotland they will be hurting.

Yoda wrote:My goodness that was encouraging, jack Willis is quality. Intensity dropped off second half as the subs came on too early and Italy had scored a good try at the start. Thought the tmo, touch judges didn't help the ref who stopped reffing the Italians after the penalty try. What drugs was garces on? Was he asleep for all the knock ons, ball bouncing in touch then awarding an Italian throw and generally not looking interested. As for the obstruction for their second it was poor from the officials especially after they chalked off JVPs try. Hey ho.

On the up side some good play by the starters. Smith came on and fluffed pretty much everything he did and again tried too hard. Farrell's inclusion fully justified. Overall 6/10.

Its tricky but Smith was back to trying to run the same crappy backline he struggled with last week. As predicted. At the same time England had lost so much shape anyway.

He wasn't good but it would have been a miracle not to have looked bad in the circumstances.

Farrell was better than last week and the whole backline seemed to be just a little better, wings aside (Lawrence outstanding ofc) but several times he kicked the ball through when we were close to the Italian line and generally the kicks just handed possession back to Italy. He really wasn't great either.

doctor_grey wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Good to see Polledri on.

Probably about the most positive thing about this match so far.

Was this his first game back after the injuries?

First for Italy

He has been around the peripheries of the Gloucester team, but not really getting mjch game time there.

Unfortunately you do wonder if he will ever be the same player again and he certainly was very good pre injury!

How was it, all in all, England fans? I will watch the whole game tomorrow.

lostinwales wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:What is his strike rate?  Feels like he has scored a try in every game he has played for England.

Pretty much every touch

I think it's 2 from 4 in the senior team, but from only the equivalent of about half a game in terms of minutes on the pitch.

lostinwales wrote:

Yoda wrote:My goodness that was encouraging, jack Willis is quality. Intensity dropped off second half as the subs came on too early and Italy had scored a good try at the start. Thought the tmo, touch judges didn't help the ref who stopped reffing the Italians after the penalty try. What drugs was garces on? Was he asleep for all the knock ons, ball bouncing in touch then awarding an Italian throw and generally not looking interested. As for the obstruction for their second it was poor from the officials especially after they chalked off JVPs try. Hey ho.

On the up side some good play by the starters. Smith came on and fluffed pretty much everything he did and again tried too hard. Farrell's inclusion fully justified. Overall 6/10.

Its tricky but Smith was back to trying to run the same crappy backline he struggled with last week. As predicted. At the same time England had lost so much shape anyway.

He wasn't good but it would have been a miracle not to have looked bad in the circumstances.

Farrell was better than last week and the whole backline seemed to be just a little better, wings aside (Lawrence outstanding ofc) but several times he kicked the ball through when we were close to the Italian line and generally the kicks just handed possession back to Italy. He really wasn't great either.

Marcus Smith now has 20 caps to his name and how many outstanding performances? He's had time with and without the hinderance of Farrell. Excuses keep coming but the Quins form doesn't.

Not that I'm defending Farrell he was solid but nothing more.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:A TBP and a 17 point margin but I think England left a bit out there.

You could say, they switched off.

You mean, they kinda left a bit of effort, ambition, and intelligence out there? They were - for the most part - rather uninspiring.

George Carlin wrote:How was it, all in all, England fans? I will watch the whole game tomorrow.

Overall much improved. England went off boil in second half but looked so much better balanced side with Lawrence at 12. Willis also very good.
Changes to starting side made a big difference.
Im still not convinced OHC is Int quality.
Malins looked good and an iffy decision by ref denied try for JvP.
Chessum again good and Itoje back on form.

George Carlin wrote:How was it, all in all, England fans? I will watch the whole game tomorrow.

Just about OK for me - England improved from last week but still have a lot of work to do.

Italy weren't as good as last week, but maybe in part due to England dominating them physically in the 1st half. Second half was poor with most of the subs generally not doing much.

The less said about the officials the better - they seemed to go blind in the 2nd half.

Oh, and they kept kicking away good attacking ball ...

Heaf wrote:

George Carlin wrote:How was it, all in all, England fans? I will watch the whole game tomorrow.

Just about OK for me - England improved from last week but still have a lot of work to do.  

Italy weren't as good as last week, but maybe in part due to England dominating them physically in the 1st half.  Second half was poor with most of the subs generally not doing much.

The less said about the officials the better - they seemed to go blind in the 2nd half.

And that's ok for me too. Incremental improvements. Seeing where things worked and didn't and making improvements where you need. I don't think we'll line up the same vs wales. I will be focusing on whether Willis starts vs them though. He will go back to his club in the week unlike everyone else so do we drop him? Huge decision given his performance.

Heaf wrote:Oh, and they kept kicking away good attacking ball ...

Farrell did kick far too much I thought, fair enough to try a couple times but did it just about every time in Italy 22. More variety and awareness of what's on needed.

Heaf wrote:Oh, and they kept kicking away good attacking ball ...

That was clearly a tactic. Quins regularly kick on the front foot that's a Nick Evans signature move. Italy had an aggressive defence Vs France and the dabs in behind certainly slowed that down. It's pretty safe to assume of you grubber through then you'll get the ball back shortly after be it either a hurried clearance to touch in which case you launch a first phase strike move or by a goal line drop out so it's pretty low risk.

An overused tactic for me though

Can someone tell me why Negri has got away with his hands all over farrels face. Surely that's needs looked into

Heaf wrote:An overused tactic for me though

I can't say I'm a fan of it but I understand the logic. Hopefully as the attacking shape comes together it becomes used less.

[quote="Geordie"]Can someone tell me why Negri has got away with his hands all over farrels face. Surely that's needs looked into[/quoted]

TMO was useless or asleep for most the game?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Heaf wrote:An overused tactic for me though

I can't say I'm a fan of it but I understand the logic. Hopefully as the attacking shape comes together it becomes used less.

Farrell didn't execute it well. The crossfield kick was overcooked and his grubbers didn't give the supporting players enough time to claim them. He was trying to play like Smith, which isn't the right way for him to play.

Meanwhile, Smith was given 9 minutes with Farrell inside him and tried too hard to make something happen.

England need to play to the strengths of the players they have. Don't ask Farrell to kick for possession rather than territory, because it's not his forte. And if you're going to put Smith on the pitch, at least give him a decent chance to run the game.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Heaf wrote:An overused tactic for me though

I can't say I'm a fan of it but I understand the logic. Hopefully as the attacking shape comes together it becomes used less.

Farrell didn't execute it well. The crossfield kick was overcooked and his grubbers didn't give the supporting players enough time to claim them. He was trying to play like Smith, which isn't the right way for him to play.

Meanwhile, Smith was given 9 minutes with Farrell inside him and tried too hard to make something happen.

England need to play to the strengths of the players they have. Don't ask Farrell to kick for possession rather than territory, because it's not his forte. And if you're going to put Smith on the pitch, at least give him a decent chance to run the game.

Smith had his chance, wasn't much of a chance but he gave an example of why he was only given 9 mins. Dreadful camel sadly.

Farrell kicks for possession quite a bit at Sarries, the difference is they don't tend to kick from 10 on the front foot. Farrell kicks on passive or negative possession. If they have momentum Sarries like to work it to the 15m channel and look to exploit the back three positioning. Something England didn't really do.

I think the kicking is systematic of the fact England know the attacking structure isn't there yet. The grubbers are an easy way to reset and go again as they virtually always lead to us getting the ball back in attacking position Vs a team like Italy.

George Carlin wrote:How was it, all in all, England fans? I will watch the whole game tomorrow.

For me, this was a bit hard to tell.  Italy did not bring the goods as they did against France so not apples to apples.  However, to me, the match looked exactly like other recent England matches against Italy.  A nice scoreline in the end, but not inspiring.  

In general, though, the pack was good.  They went through a lot of donkey work and were the difference in the match.  On attack, they had a lot of carries, set the table well, or simply settled things down.  Lineouts were good, didn't lose any but didn't win any of Italy's, and the mauls were very good.  Defensively, Ludlum had 22 tackles, Willis had 20 and Dombrandt had 11.  Add in the 7 by Earl after he came on which gives the back row 60 tackles.  That's really good.  Add in 17 by Itoje, as well, though I didn't think he had a great game overall. Ludlum was one of the primary line out takers and was fine.  

Lawrence played and actually got the ball.  A lot.  Was happy for him and was a nice showing.  Was great seeing an actual attacking threat from Inside Centre.  Steward was fine, as usual.   The rest of the backs, not so much.  Nothing inspiring.  Yes, Malins made a few good plays, but OHC was completely invisible for the second week running - can't see what he brings to the table, Slade looked very rusty and did not have a good performance.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Heaf wrote:Oh, and they kept kicking away good attacking ball ...

That was clearly a tactic. Quins regularly kick on the front foot that's a Nick Evans signature move. Italy had an aggressive defence Vs France and the dabs in behind certainly slowed that down. It's pretty safe to assume of you grubber through then you'll get the ball back shortly after be it either a hurried clearance to touch in which case you launch a first phase strike move or by a goal line drop out so it's pretty low risk.

It's a great tactic when done well (and sparingly). I'd argue that Farrell did it too often and badly

I like that Lawrence that offered a physical threat. Obviously he isn't Manu in his pomp, but he at least gave the defence something to think about. I feel that England can build upon it. I think you simply have to have a player in the backline that can potentially knock the opposition over. If you break like waves, they will eventually get hands on the ball (or you'll have to kick the ball again).

To be honest, I didn't expect much from this Six Nations. I mean we're playing Ireland on St Paddy's weekend when they are probably going for a slam, we were going to get a shoeing anyway, but there is just no way were were ever going to win that.

Maybe it is a fever dream, but I do think we can get something out of the Wales and France games. Given the circumstances, it wouldn't be as bad as I thought the tournament might go...

I see the knives are out for Smith now.

9 minutes and he doesn't have an exceptional performance and suddenly he looks like he'll be over taken by others (totally untested btw).

We are a fickle lot aren't we.

Geordie wrote:Sam is West at tigers yet. He's a cracking loosehead.

Came off the bench in the last game, looked decent. I'm hoping he's signing on for next season. Cronin has a broken arm or wrist so he should get plenty of game time to the end of the season. Won't get enough of a chance for the 6N but I think Borthwick has his hands tied with the EPS restrictions to be honest. If he had more than the five changes then VRR might well have been in and benching. He'd fit what England are trying to do really well and better than Mako.

yappysnap wrote:I see the knives are out for Smith now.

9 minutes and he doesn't have an exceptional performance and suddenly he looks like he'll be over taken by others (totally untested btw).

We are a fickle lot aren't we.

Yeah, but.
Smith comes in during garbage time and people are knocking him?  A player's performance during the last few minutes of a blow out is comparable to a player's performance mid-match?  The funny thing is Farrell didn't do anything spectacular or different than most competent out-halves.

I see Ollie Hassell Collins has been getting really bad reviews of his debut and getting slated for painting his nails the colour of England flags. Doesnt seem like the wisest way to prepare for your debut to be fair.