[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

Geordie wrote:Have some omissions been due to SB only being allowed to make so many changes.

Doubt it. Normally when the coach changes the limits are lifted a little. It's up to 5 changes to the EPS anyway, and I count more than that. It only limits the squad for the extended training periods too so could realistically have sent the players back (as they will have to with Willis) outside of the window.

Surely for his first squad he can pick whoever he wants. Only limits will be after that?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Have some omissions been due to SB only being allowed to make so many changes.

Doubt it. Normally when the coach changes the limits are lifted a little. It's up to 5 changes to the EPS anyway, and I count more than that. It only limits the squad for the extended training periods too so could realistically have sent the players back (as they will have to with Willis) outside of the window.

There's 5 changes plus any injury related changes. So Stuart being injured and replaced by Cole wouldn't count as one of the 5. Borthwick and the RFU asked the Prem for some leniency but I don't know how much they got.

That seems stupid. Why can't a new coach literally select any and all players he wants to first squad of 45? Being hamstrung by having players he may not want is ridiculous.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Have some omissions been due to SB only being allowed to make so many changes.

Doubt it. Normally when the coach changes the limits are lifted a little. It's up to 5 changes to the EPS anyway, and I count more than that. It only limits the squad for the extended training periods too so could realistically have sent the players back (as they will have to with Willis) outside of the window.

There's 5 changes plus any injury related changes. So Stuart being injured and replaced by Cole wouldn't count as one of the 5. Borthwick and the RFU asked the Prem for some leniency but I don't know how much they got.

Yeah, so Coles, Ribbans, Nowell May, Porter and Coakansiga make 6, before then the injuries so think there was wiggle room.

mountain man wrote:That seems stupid. Why can't a new coach literally select any and all players he wants to first squad of 45? Being hamstrung by having players he may not want is ridiculous.

The 45 man EPS squad is announced before the start of the season (but generally not published). Those teams then get funding from the RFU which they can use for expected lost players throughout the season. From the 45 the head coach selects a 36 man squad. If Borthwick came in and pulled 15 players from outside of the EPS then there's a chance it could damage a team's chances of being able to remain competitive. Given the England Internationals miss a lot of the season now they have the rest/training weeks giving the clubs advanced notice is only fair.

mountain man wrote:That seems stupid. Why can't a new coach literally select any and all players he wants to first squad of 45? Being hamstrung by having players he may not want is ridiculous.

To be fair here to the RFU there needs to be give and take between England and the clubs, they're giving players outside the international window so I can see the fairness in letting them know who is going to be missing so some planning can take place. You wouldn't normally get that many changes outside of injuries.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Have some omissions been due to SB only being allowed to make so many changes.

Doubt it. Normally when the coach changes the limits are lifted a little. It's up to 5 changes to the EPS anyway, and I count more than that. It only limits the squad for the extended training periods too so could realistically have sent the players back (as they will have to with Willis) outside of the window.

There's 5 changes plus any injury related changes. So Stuart being injured and replaced by Cole wouldn't count as one of the 5. Borthwick and the RFU asked the Prem for some leniency but I don't know how much they got.

Yeah, so Coles, Ribbans, Nowell May, Porter and Coakansiga make 6, before then the injuries so think there was wiggle room.

Porter is injured.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Have some omissions been due to SB only being allowed to make so many changes.

Doubt it. Normally when the coach changes the limits are lifted a little. It's up to 5 changes to the EPS anyway, and I count more than that. It only limits the squad for the extended training periods too so could realistically have sent the players back (as they will have to with Willis) outside of the window.

There's 5 changes plus any injury related changes. So Stuart being injured and replaced by Cole wouldn't count as one of the 5. Borthwick and the RFU asked the Prem for some leniency but I don't know how much they got.

Yeah, so Coles, Ribbans, Nowell May, Porter and Coakansiga make 6, before then the injuries so think there was wiggle room.

Porter is injured.

Perhaps he was limited then.

Willis would now fall into that allowable change too given he's not England based so that's an additional pick.

Geordie wrote:Have some omissions been due to SB only being allowed to make so many changes.

Although in theory only 5 changes were available to the Elite Player Squad, the premiership clubs were apparently amenable to a higher number of changes - as they have been in previous years.  Add in injuries to Will Stuart, Jack Singleton, Luke Cowan-Dickie and Tom Curry I think SB have plenty of changes available.

Dave Ribbans was I understand in the EPS so has not been selected because SB presumably doesn't rate him. There is a bit more competition in the back row so Ted Hill not making it is more understandable. Val Rapava-Ruskin not getting in ahead of Mako or Rodd is debatable - Marler is presumably looked at as too much trouble.

So what are the 5 changes...
And injury changes?

Dan Cole for Stuart - Injury
Ribbans : Isiekwe - Swap
Nowell : Murley - Swap
May : OHC - Swap
Porter : Kelly - Injury
Cokansiga : Freeman
T.Curry : B.Curry

Somewhat surprised Hill and Lawrence are not in the wider squad given their form and performances in a Premiership side that is generally under pressure. Underhill is probably not yet 'Test' fit and Cokanasiga looks like has been replaced by OHC with size and pace, which is fair enough based on form. That will all suit Bath though, who currently need all the help they can get.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell as captain is interesting. Guarantees his starting place really doesn't it? And it'll be at 12.

Not necessarily - there have been a couple of instances in the past where the squad captain and the matchday captain have been different. But it makes it more likely.

I am not as down on the Smith-Farrell 10-12 as everyone else seems to be. The Quins system tries to relieve Smith of dealing with bad ball by having Care and Esterhuizen to step in. Farrell can play a simiar role (as Greenwood and Catt did for Wilkinson, albeit with a slightly different dynamic).

There were moments - particularly against NZ - where it was starting to work but I think it was blunted by Eddie trying to change too much at once in terms of everyone else's role in attack. Squidge did a good piece after the draw with NZ about both the complexity of the patterns and how some players were still out of position. You could also see Marcus doing a lot of running around behind the line directing people into position.

My guess is that Borthwick and Evans will be trying to do something similar in principle but will simplify it to begin with - NEv has said something about wanting to bring clarity. I think we may also see a bit more of the "2 touches per phase" idea that NEv has been working on with Smith - but it might be that sometimes one of the touches is by Farrell rather than Smith. Faz and Ford got something like that working well in 2019; Ford was calling the pattern of play a couple of phases ahead, and Farrell was executing until the defence had been pulled to where Ford wanted it.

Smith can (and does) do the same but in a single phase - if he has enough people running enough lines to challenge the defence. The simplest way to get there fast is to have Dombrandt, Marchant and Murley on the pitch with him, though there's a lot of competition for the 11, 13 and 14 slots with 8 backs potentially gunning for them. And some very different characters in the back row - I'm guessing Simmonds, Willis, Ludlam and Dommers are all in contention at 8.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Willis would now fall into that allowable change too given he's not England based so that's an additional pick.

The RFU said that any player from Wasps or Wuss would retain the same selection status if they were forced to move abroad because of their clubs administration so Jack Willis will have been still considered as part of the EPS.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Willis would now fall into that allowable change too given he's not England based so that's an additional pick.

The RFU said that any player from Wasps or Wuss would retain the same selection status if they were forced to move abroad because of their clubs administration so Jack Willis will have been still considered as part of the EPS.

The EPS is about the release of players outside the squad...if they've signed Toulouse up to that I'd have to give them a pat on the back!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Willis would now fall into that allowable change too given he's not England based so that's an additional pick.

The RFU said that any player from Wasps or Wuss would retain the same selection status if they were forced to move abroad because of their clubs administration so Jack Willis will have been still considered as part of the EPS.

The EPS is about the release of players outside the squad...if they've signed Toulouse up to that I'd have to give them a pat on the back!

The Prem clubs won't require that to be one of the five picks was what I meant. The Prem clubs are only really concerned where it effects them hence the limit of overseas selections (under normal circumstances) and the mid season EPS adjustment.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Willis would now fall into that allowable change too given he's not England based so that's an additional pick.

The RFU said that any player from Wasps or Wuss would retain the same selection status if they were forced to move abroad because of their clubs administration so Jack Willis will have been still considered as part of the EPS.

The EPS is about the release of players outside the squad...if they've signed Toulouse up to that I'd have to give them a pat on the back!

The Prem clubs won't require that to be one of the five picks was what I meant. The Prem clubs are only really concerned where it effects them hence the limit of overseas selections (under normal circumstances) and the mid season EPS adjustment.

This situation isn't going to be captured in the rules surely. Not sure anyone saw this coming.

I didnt notice Isiekwe in there. So if Lawes isnt 100% then i guess he's in at 6.

Geordie wrote:I didnt notice Isiekwe in there. So if Lawes isnt 100% then i guess he's in at 6.

There’s only Itoje, Hill. Isiekwe, Lawes and Chessum in the squad who are recognised as locks, even though four of them play/have played 6 as well. I’d be very happy to see Lawes at 6, but if he’s not fit I’d rather one of Ludlam, Willis or B Curry than Isiekwe or Chessum.

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:I didnt notice Isiekwe in there. So if Lawes isnt 100% then i guess he's in at 6.

There’s only Itoje, Hill. Isiekwe, Lawes and Chessum in the squad who are recognised as locks, even though four of them play/have played 6 as well. I’d be very happy to see Lawes at 6, but if he’s not fit I’d rather one of Ludlam, Willis or B Curry than Isiekwe or Chessum.

So it'll be
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Lawes
7 Chessum

Geordie wrote:I didnt notice Isiekwe in there. So if Lawes isnt 100% then i guess he's in at 6.

Lawers played against Munster and apparently ( I did not see the game) played pretty well at 7 instead of his usual 6. Unless he gets another knock I think he will be up and raring to go.

He is one of those funny players that comes back from a long term injury and plays like he has been on his holidays, full of energy and intent.

My concern with Lawes is his concussions and the fact he had to have a brain scan.

Geordie wrote:My concern with Lawes is his concussions and the fact he had to have a brain scan.

Unless you know what the scan showed, the scan is not in itself a cause for concern. The aim of doing it would have been to find out whether the concussions he'd had had caused permanent damage and if it was safe for him to play on once recovered. Presumably it didn't give a picture that said "retire immediately".

His record of concussions is a concern, but if the medical opinion is that he can keep on playing, he's an automatic pick if fit.

So Farrell is captain. That must mean he will be in starting XV.
Question is what position. If it's 10 which is by far his best position then fine but then that must mean Smith bench, which is OK but I'd rather Smith starting. However if Smith starts that must mean Farrell 12 and does anyone really think Smith Farrell at 10 12 worked?

No 9 10 12 has worked since the world cup. Vice captains are also genge and Lawes so they're also up to start. Resigned to Lawes at 6.

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:My concern with Lawes is his concussions and the fact he had to have a brain scan.

Unless you know what the scan showed, the scan is not in itself a cause for concern. The aim of doing it would have been to find out whether the concussions he'd had had caused permanent damage and if it was safe for him to play on once recovered. Presumably it didn't give a picture that said "retire immediately".

His record of concussions is a concern, but if the medical opinion is that he can keep on playing, he's an automatic pick if fit.

I can't see Saints allowing him back unless he was medically discharged as fit to play. The scan was I assume as Poorfour said a precaution; I think all players who take longer than a few weeks to recover should be scanned as a matter of course. Lawes has been out for the last few weeks with butt trouble (damaged Glute), nothing to do with concussion.

It id nice to see some new face in the squad and not relied on the likes of Bill V/Jack Noerl/and Johnny May W who are nor on form right now.

I am a bit surprised by Dan Cole though.

Cole's form supports his inclusion, though, and with Stuart and Collier injured there aren't that many English TH who have been putting their hands up.

He may also be there to help ease Heyes into international rugby. I'd expect the latter to get some game time at some point.

Geordie wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:I didnt notice Isiekwe in there. So if Lawes isnt 100% then i guess he's in at 6.

There’s only Itoje, Hill. Isiekwe, Lawes and Chessum in the squad who are recognised as locks, even though four of them play/have played 6 as well. I’d be very happy to see Lawes at 6, but if he’s not fit I’d rather one of Ludlam, Willis or B Curry than Isiekwe or Chessum.

So it'll be
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Lawes
7 Chessum

Chessum had to play openside once for Tigers due to a shortage of options at the time. He did say quite publicly that he hoped he'd never have to do it again.

Borthwick has previously shown he likes to use his bench, do we think he's going to pack it for impact?

Genge, George, Cole
Hill, Itoje
Lawes, Dombrandt, Willis
Youngs, Farrell
Manu, Slade
OHC, Steward, Daly

To start and then look at bringing on some of his more impactful bench a bit earlier?

McGuigan, Mako, Sinckler, Chessum, Earl, JVP, Smith, Marchant.

A fresh Sinckler and JVP coming on just after half time to lift the tempo could make things interesting. Probably to far out there to change both halfbacks on 45 mins and give a completely different spin to the second half.

Effectively 4 locks in there so I'd guess either Ludlam is the reserve 6 or SB just really doesn't rate the lock options! If Isiekwe is that second option at 6 then it seems odd to go with 4 locks and lots of flankers. I guess that could also be related to limits EPS changes though. So perhaps others might come in closer to the tournament due to injuries etc.

I'm pleased for Daly. I know he's not most people on here's favourite player but his recent form for Sarries has been superb and he's a Test Lion for a reason. I think he can offer a lot as an outside centre and wing option.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Earl 8.Dombrandt
9.JvP 10.Farrell 11.OHC 12.Kelly 13.Slade/Tuilagi 14.Freeman 15.Steward

16.Walker 17.Mako 18.Sinckler 19.Hill 20.Willis 21.Youngs 22.M Smith 23.Daly

From that squad I'd go with that I reckon. 13 just dependent on tactics. If they want a carrier for early phase play then Manu is the obvious option. If they would prefer a defensive leader and left footed kicking option at 13 then Slade is the obvious one. I have a feeling that we'll see an aggressive blitz defence that will put pressure on 13 in defence so Slade would make sense with the likely defensive systems Sinfield favours.

Is is possible we may see some club combinations?

Farrell at 10, Daly on the wing and Malins at 15? Daly is in superb form and despite Stewards initial impact at Int level, he's occasionally struggled and has question marks around his defence. I don't think he's as nailed on as people think.

Smith at 10 with Marchant at 13 and on the wing, Murley? With Evans also coaching the attack, would this allow Smith to shine? He's looked like a lost sheep for the majority of his Int tenure, getting familiar players around him could help.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is is possible we may see some club combinations?

Farrell at 10, Daly on the wing and Malins at 15? Daly is in superb form and despite Stewards initial impact at Int level, he's occasionally struggled and has question marks around his defence. I don't think he's as nailed on as people think.

Steward is one of the few players I'd have thought would be a nailed on starter. Despite all the Eddie issues he was consistently one our best players. Six tries in 17 at international level isn't a bad return and he's finally fixed our issues at the back. Add in using him on the kick chase has proved an easy way to gain metres when the attack isn't doing it. Malins has started only two games at fullback all season.

Defensively he's as good as any of our other options. It's who we pair him with in the back three really.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is is possible we may see some club combinations?

Farrell at 10, Daly on the wing and Malins at 15? Daly is in superb form and despite Stewards initial impact at Int level, he's occasionally struggled and has question marks around his defence. I don't think he's as nailed on as people think.

Smith at 10 with Marchant at 13 and on the wing, Murley? With Evans also coaching the attack, would this allow Smith to shine? He's looked like a lost sheep for the majority of his Int tenure, getting familiar players around him could help.

LOl do you just not like Tigers players Sgt?

Steward has made that position his own...and at club level now your starting to see him really flourish and develop as an intelligent attacking player....which will come through at this level too.

I like Steward at full back. So much nicer than having to watch through your fingers when Daly was anywhere near a ball in the air. I do think we can afford with him though to actually play out and out wingers who are fast. I didn't get Jones playing Nowell and then Freeman seemingly as safety nets without thinking ball in hand who do the opposition really fear. I have the same fear that that will be SB's approach. I've grown tired with our wingers getting the ball 1 on 1 and seeing them cut back inside not trusting their pace or ability to beat a man.

Unless injury rules him out Steward has to be as nailed on at 15 as can be. And rightly so.
Daly and Malins both been excellent this season but we have seen this before and didn't end well for England. However they deserve their places in squad under Borthwick.

All we've seen is the training squad, I think we have to wait and see what 15/23 he picks for Scotland and go from there.

Daly mainly playing at 13 now though. He's properly bottled it before, making bad decisions. Is that the pressure that Jones was placing on him (similar to Malins breaking down in tears in training), or the pressure of the situation? I'd obviously happily see neither involved for Scotland, for me them 2 and Freeman are vying for the 23 shirt.

Steward has been a breath of fresh air with his safe hands at the back (although he's not been as safe as his initial breakthrough) but I don't think he's as secure in his position as people are making out tbh. His lack of pace and tendency to switch off defensively might work against him, who knows?

It's a new era and I think it's fair to discuss each position, especially with Daly and Malins selected in the squad.

Can I answer that one? He's starting, it will probably be at 15, maybe 14 if they want to target an opposition winger, but he will start. Can't think of a better English full back since Brown was at his pomp tbh.

Malins may turn a corner under Borthwick but he wasn't doing much against better international teams, and he had a few chances.

It is difficult. Experience improves, form goes up and dowm, but Steward is capable of mixing it in any company

lostinwales wrote:Malins may turn a corner under Borthwick but he wasn't doing much against better international teams, and he had a few chances.

It is difficult. Experience improves, form goes up and dowm, but Steward is capable of mixing it in any company

Jones played Malins on the wing where he isn't great, he's a much better FB. I'd have like to have seen him get a run at FB when he first broke through.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Malins may turn a corner under Borthwick but he wasn't doing much against better international teams, and he had a few chances.

It is difficult. Experience improves, form goes up and dowm, but Steward is capable of mixing it in any company

Jones played Malins on the wing where he isn't great, he's a much better FB. I'd have like to have seen him get a run at FB when he first broke through.

He's definitely not starting much there ahead of Steward, Freeman and Arundell long ish term. Will be interesting to see how Hodge goes with some games now under his belt again. Malins ain't a starting full back at international level.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Malins may turn a corner under Borthwick but he wasn't doing much against better international teams, and he had a few chances.

It is difficult. Experience improves, form goes up and dowm, but Steward is capable of mixing it in any company

Jones played Malins on the wing where he isn't great, he's a much better FB. I'd have like to have seen him get a run at FB when he first broke through.

He's definitely not starting much there ahead of Steward, Freeman and Arundell long ish term. Will be interesting to see how Hodge goes with some games now under his belt again. Malins ain't a starting full back at international level.

Well he's in the squad.....

Malins is a better fullback than Freeman and Arundell......and he's only 26. He's a really classy option at FB, he's in the mix for sure.

He doesn't get game time for Saracens ahead of either Daly or Goode, they're currently settling with him on the wing. He may get some more games there for Bristol, can't remember if Piutau is moving though? If he isn't he'll be on the wing for them too. He'll need to hit the round really running this 6Ns though as I have the feeling he'll be moved aside once Arundell gets back.

I think Piatau is off from Bristol so Malins will get a run at fullback there but currently he barely plays at 15 and is probably just a squad man. I don't think there's much between him and Freeman at 15 but likewise with Malins, Freeman doesn't play 15 enough at club level.

If Kelly is going to be the option at 12 then Steward at 15 makes a lot of sense as that's a combination used quite a bit at Tigers via the pass out the back.

I see it between Daly, Marchant and Malins for the 23 shirt myself. Each has that useful versatility (in different ways) and all could have an impact in a match.

Malins himself has said he sees himself as a 15 not wing. He would I'm sure play wing for England if picked but one of reasons for his move was to play 15. He said so himself.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Smith at 10 with Marchant at 13 and on the wing, Murley? With Evans also coaching the attack, would this allow Smith to shine? He's looked like a lost sheep for the majority of his Int tenure, getting familiar players around him could help.

I think Smith has looked more like a shepherd who’s lost his sheepdog than a sheep - he has spent a lot of time in attack running around behind the line trying to organise his runners. I’d hope Evans will keep some of the principles but simplify it down so that there are more players in the right place more often.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:I didnt notice Isiekwe in there. So if Lawes isnt 100% then i guess he's in at 6.

Lawers played against Munster and apparently ( I did not see the game) played pretty well at 7 instead of his usual 6. Unless he gets another knock I think he will be up and raring to go.

He is one of those funny players that comes back from a long term injury and plays like he has been on his holidays, full of energy and intent.

You are a lucky guy, mate. Not watching Minster-Saints would be better for mental and psychological health. Sitting in the stands at Thomond Park was grand. Watching Saints play like a poorly coached U14 side was not.

Freeman and Ludlum were very good. Frankly, thought Freeman was the best player on the pitch.
Lawes and Ribbans were good. Ramm too.
The rest? Varying levels of vomitus.

McConnochie now in the Scotland squad.