[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

by king_carlos Sat 07 Jan 2023, 11:55 am

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 05 Feb 2023, 5:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll take it you don't know who you'd have as your bench cover then sarge.

What's happened with the officials this 6 nations, don't remember us having so many SH ones before. England have 3 NZs a Frenchman and a SA.

Getting experience before the world cup I'd assume.

by Barney McGrew did it Sun 05 Feb 2023, 8:01 pm

I think the key here is to temper our expectations. Bar some defending that even Italy would better (probably missed Slade here), and with mostly the same larger squad we’ve had for a number of years, I genuinely don’t think we can do that much better than Sat – looks like we’ll being playing Wales for 4th/5th place, and we’ve still got a half decent looking Italy to beat.

Our BR is a little ordinary/green, we haven’t had a class midfield for decades, can’t quite make our minds up about SR, OHs only just OK, our goal kicker isn't, and the back 3 are unsettled - beating France, Ireland, ABs, and SA, particularly with that defence, is just a pipe dream. SB has inherited an average-to-OK side which will take some years to get near the top again. Patience.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 06 Feb 2023, 12:29 am

Telegraph piece today

Steve Borthwick's damning verdict on Eddie Jones' England: Not good at anything

England head coach Steve Borthwick has delivered a damning indictment of the squad he inherited from Eddie Jones, claiming his data demonstrates they “weren’t good at anything”.

After suffering a 29-23 Calcutta Cup defeat to Scotland in his first game in charge, Borthwick said it will take time to address underlying issues following Jones' sacking last month.

England, who have lost four of their last six matches at Twickenham, will drop behind Scotland to sixth in World Rugby’s latest rankings, and Borthwick said: “We know we’ve got a lot of work to do, I’ve been frank from day one in saying there’s a lot of work to do. When I looked at the team in the autumn, when I measured the team and got all the data, we weren’t good at anything. It was as frank as that.”

Borthwick worked as an assistant coach under Jones with both Japan and England when they reached the World Cup final and were ranked as the No 1 side in the world. Yet after Borthwick departed to join Leicester following the 2020 Six Nations title triumph, England’s decline has been precipitous.

They have won just four Six Nations matches in three years, with two of those coming against Italy. Under Jones, England were in the bottom three of tier-one countries for tries scored, defenders beaten, lineout steals and tackle success.

Borthwick highlighted the scrum - where England were ranked 11th in the world last year with an 85 per cent success rate - and the breakdown as key areas where they have been left behind by other nations.

“There’s multiple areas that we have tried to change,” Borthwick said. “I think you saw some improvement in the scrum [on Saturday] which I was pleased about because it has been ranked as the worst scrum in tier one rugby. I think we saw some improvements in the attack and speed of ball and we tried to improve the breakdown where I think England were ranked the ninth quickest, so one of the slowest in tier one. I think we saw some improvement in that regard.

“I’ve asked [the players] to do some things differently and they’ve committed wholeheartedly to that over the last 11 days. We saw improvement in a lot of areas. Some areas didn’t go so well and we need to make sure we get those addressed. Some take longer than others. We are trying to rebuild the set piece here. That takes time.”

The decline of the English set piece has been acutely felt by the squad with hooker Jamie George insisting it is up to the players to bring a fear factor back to the scrum and maul.

“That's very tough and that has to change,” George said. “We're all very, very ambitious people. We want to take England rugby back to the top and we're aware it hasn't been good enough and especially in the autumn, it wasn't. Eddie took the brunt of it in terms of losing his job. But at the same time, we were the people on the field. So we have to take accountability for it, too.”

Borthwick was encouraged by England’s response to going behind in the first half to Huw Jones’ well-worked try and Duhan van der Merwe’s wonder score, with Max Malins crossing twice. Ellis Genge’s try gave England a 20-12 advantage but Ben White and Van der Merwe took advantage of some suspect defending to ensure Scotland won back-to-back wins at Twickenham for the first time. Nevertheless, Borthwick believes that England have taken a step in the right direction.

“One thing I have got to do here is get the players to believe in themselves and get the players to bring their strengths to the pitch,” Borthwick said. “Get them to play to the best of themselves, which I don’t think we have seen them do for a while. I think you saw an improvement in that regard today.

“I’d seen a habit with the team of conceding points early and not being able to respond to it. We conceded points today and the biggest thing I was looking at was the response. I thought the response was magnificent.”

Fly half Marcus Smith is among those who seemingly felt liberated by the change of backroom staff with his club coach Nick Evans on secondment from Harlequins to England.

“Being able to work with Snap [Evans] at this level is brilliant,” Smith said. “I felt myself out there. I got my hands on the ball but it just wasn’t enough. I’ll go back to the drawing board and work on it.

“We've got weapons. It's my job to try and find the best way to shoot our weapons and I'm still learning. I'll keep working on that and one day we'll get it. I think we're trying to shock ourselves as to how fast we can play, how much pressure we can put on the opposition and on ourselves to play at this speed. It's going to take time. I thought it was a much better performance than we showed in the autumn.”
Analysis: Borthwick claims he was given a hospital pass...the stats prove him right

Like Lord Voldemort, Eddie Jones has quickly assumed the role of he who must not be named around Twickenham.

Jones has been whitewashed from the board of media coverage inside the Twickenham press room, but an even more pointed critique of his legacy came from his successor Steve Borthwick during his post-match analysis of the 29-23 defeat to Scotland.

Not once was Jones namechecked by Borthwick but when he stated that England “weren’t good at anything” last year there is no second guessing the inference that he received a hospital pass. Even the fabled new coach bounce will only take England so far when they are working from such a low base.

The stats provided by Opta bear out Borthwick’s thesis. England were near the bottom of the pile for nearly every metric among Tier One countries in 2022, perhaps most painfully in scrum (11th) and tackle (10th) success. Behind every great England side have been a ferocious set piece and defence but somewhere along the line this got forgotten in Jones obsession with jam tomorrow.

Hooker Jamie George grimaced when mention of England’s scrum being ranked bottom among tier-one nations was put to him. “That's tough, that's tough, very, very tough and that has to change,” George said. “We're all very, very ambitious people. We want to take England rugby back to the top and we're aware that it hasn't been good enough and especially in the autumn, it wasn't.”

Of course, Borthwick was always going to draw a line in the sand with the past regime. His low Cumbrain accent was broadcast on the PA system around Twickenham before the game in a clear attempt to announce the start of a new era after the Dark Lord.
Steve Borthwick during England's warm-up - Steve Borthwick's damning verdict on Eddie Jones' England: Not good at anything
Improving England's poor scrum and tackle numbers is a key task for Borthwick Credit: David Rogers/Getty Images

Yet it is still striking that Borthwick was prepared to criticise the legacy bequeathed to him by his predecessor. No coach is more closely associated with Borthwick’s career than Jones, whom employed him as an assistant coach with Japan and then England. Whenever Jones needed a backer in the court of public opinion then Borthwick was always willing to mount an often lonely case for the defence.

But now that bond appears to be fraying with Borthwick also suggesting that the players lacked self-belief and confidence under Jones. “One thing I have got to do here is get the players to believe in themselves and get the players to bring their strengths to the pitch,” Borthwick said. “Get them to play to the best of themselves, which I don’t think we have seen them do for a while. I think you saw an improvement in that regard today.

“I’d seen a habit with the team of conceding points early and not being able to respond to it. We conceded points today and the biggest thing I was looking at was the response. I thought the response was magnificent.”

That response was led by Max Malins who scored a pair of first-half tries which showcased the quick ruck speed that attack coach Nick Evans had prioritised. Fly half Marcus Smith spoke of playing at a “tempo that’s a shock to us and therefore a shock to defend” and the speed of England’s play was the most striking difference in the performances from the autumn.

Smith also suggested that he felt liberated by the change of backroom staff with his club coach Evans on secondment from Harlequins to England. “Being able to work with Snap (Evans) at this level is brilliant,” Smith said. “I felt myself out there. I got my hands on the ball but it just wasn’t enough. I’ll go back to the drawing board and work on it. We've got weapons. It's my job to try and find the best way to shoot our weapons and I'm still learning. I thought it was a much better performance than we showed in the autumn.”

That pace was not always matched by accuracy. Scotland, led by two stunning scores by Duhan van der Merwe, were far more clinical with their chances in sealing back-to-back victories at Twickenham for the first time.

Of greater concern for Borthwick and new defence coach Kevin Sinfield was the number of missed tackles - 25 in all. Several of those came on Van der Merwe but both his tries came as a result of a poor kick chase. “Inexcusable” according to George.

There will be no excuses, however, when Italy come to Twickenham on Sunday with their tails up after pushing France all the way in Rome.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Feb 2023, 7:02 am

Despite the disappointment in letting things slip away again vs Scotland some of those issues above did look better. The breakdown did seem quicker until about the 60th minute when it became a bit of a mess getting the ball away. Bar maybe 1 scrum that area looked stable and quite strong. Lineout wasn't there really and maul looked about the same.

Defense, hard to talk on systems when flankers are falling off tackles on shs.

by mountain man Mon 06 Feb 2023, 8:39 am

Malins seems to be copping a lot of grief here and although he's not best in defence he wasn't only one. Sinfield got a bit of work to do this week, not only was the VdM try inexcusable so was hardly a hand laid on White for his try. We should applaud good attacking play by opposition for sure but also need to be realistic about failings of England and there were plenty.

I somewhat suspect Borthwick won't make many changes for Italy barring any injury concerns. I think he should but seeing as Saturday was his first game if he makes a raft of changes it smacks of poor selection in first place. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't maybe.

I would bench Itoje and start Ribbans and Chessum 2nd row. Front row were fine and Sinckler had best game for Eng for some time I thought.
Only Ludlam came away in credit in backrow, Dombrandt some good stuff but key errors as well. Curry showed endeavour but didn't impose himself. I'd start Ludlam, Dombrandt and Earl. If not Dombrandt who else if Billy is out for 8.
JvP 9 Mitchell bench, Farrell 10, Smith bench. Kelly 12 Lawrence 13 with Marchant bench. Malins 15(yes I know), Steward, Murley on wings. Harsh on OHC to be dropped to bench but he did nothing on Saturday.

Back 3 still an issue as are centres, groundhog day continues.

by Geordie Mon 06 Feb 2023, 8:40 am

Scotland are well down their building process....
England have had 11 days under the new regime.

I think most would agree with the Telegraphs piece there. We've said it multiple times on here.
And too many players not playing to their best...Itoje, Sinckler (who ive criticized so much but was WAY better on Saturday) etc etc.

Italy next week will be a massive banana skin...we simply HAVE to get our defence right.

It'll be fascinating to see what changes...if any are made to the team / squad.

We need to build familiarity, look at the ~~Leinster~~ my mistake the Ireland team...so well drilled because they all play together week in week out.....you dont do that with chopping and changing...however some players just didnt perform on Saturday...ie..maybe Marchant showed why Jones only considered him for the wing.

Areas of question.
1.
Itoje is a big puzzle. Do you rest him and make him earn that shirt again? Surely Ribbans and Chessum deserve a chance together.

2.
Back row...where to start. Ok ill say it....Ted HIll? Whats the crack with Sam Underhill at the moment..?

3.
Midfield. I think its pretty clear injuries were the issue here for this game. Lets just hope Kelly or Slade etc are fit...that changes alot.
Its Farrell at 10 for me, then Smith off the bench.
And with Kelly, Slade, Lawrence and marchant...surely we can devise a decent enough midfield.

by Geordie Mon 06 Feb 2023, 8:46 am

mountain man wrote:Malins seems to be copping a lot of grief here and although he's not best in defence he wasn't only one. Sinfield got a bit of work to do this week, not only was the VdM try inexcusable so was hardly a hand laid on White for his try. We should applaud good attacking play by opposition for sure but also need to be realistic about failings of England and there were plenty.

I somewhat suspect Borthwick won't make many changes for Italy barring any injury concerns. I think he should but seeing as Saturday was his first game if he makes a raft of changes it smacks of poor selection in first place. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't maybe.

I would bench Itoje and start Ribbans and Chessum 2nd row. Front row were fine and Sinckler had best game for Eng for some time I thought.
Only Ludlam came away in credit in backrow, Dombrandt some good stuff but key errors as well. Curry showed endeavour but didn't impose himself. I'd start Ludlam, Dombrandt and Earl. If not Dombrandt who else if Billy is out for 8.
JvP 9 Mitchell bench, Farrell 10, Smith bench. Kelly 12 Lawrence 13 with Marchant bench. Malins 15(yes I know), Steward, Murley on wings. Harsh on OHC to be dropped to bench but he did nothing on Saturday.

Back 3 still an issue as are centres, groundhog day continues.

Ben was thrown around like a rag doll at times. He looked so underpowered. Maybe hes too used to having the monstrous South Africans doing all his power work.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Feb 2023, 8:52 am

I'm really caught between what I think is fair to players and wanting to see what I think is the best team. Curry was frankly a little poor on Saturday, when you have Jack Willis not even in the squad that looks a poor selection, then my head is saying he's been good in the prem and perhaps deserves the chance to pull it around. He made errors I wouldn't expect though, and perhaps Willis' France absence contributed to the selection choice? Youngs has to be dropped, he's got a vast amount of experience and if he was told to slow things down and control territory when he came on he failed miserably. Again we looked better playing quickly, I think we'd have won that game quite comfortably with Mitchell coming on. The problem with guys like him are that he's got an attacking mindset and will take risks, sometimes they won't come off but the potential gains....well you saw Scotland roll the dice: just annoying it always comes off against us lately and no doubt they'll try the same this week get turned over cheaply and beaten. Ce la vie.

Chessum looked great, and I'd love it to be that we've found our lock combo. Itoje has been poor for him, but still our best second rower by a considerable distance, I would still like to see more of Ribbans though.

Malins...well I still want a winger that when he gets the ball, I think he's going to score. And Malins isn't that winger for me.

by mountain man Mon 06 Feb 2023, 8:52 am

Ben C is about a stone lighter than Tom and it showed but it's not just size is issue.
Seems we're on similar wavelength for 2nd row, backrow, 10 and centres. Marchant wasn't great but then he was outside Smith Farrell which as always didn't work. I would like to see Lawrence get a start at 13 and see how he goes.
However I wonder how much Borthwick will change.

by mountain man Mon 06 Feb 2023, 9:08 am

The problem with guys like him are that he's got an attacking mindset and will take risks

I can live with that, better to die trying. Youngs literally kicked away match on Saturday which was appalling, I just don't know what he was trying to do with those box kicks into Scotland 22 which were easily dealt with.

by hugehandoff Mon 06 Feb 2023, 9:13 am

It is so difficult for SB as the RFU got rid of Eddie way too late. With so few matches before the RWC selection is a really challenging aspect to get right. To have any chance in the RWC we need combinations of players and tactics/systems to be bedded in as much as possible in the circumstances. Therefore, we need some consistency, but if injuries have disrupted plans and some players failed to perform he cannot be anything other than ruthless at this stage. Who do we need in the team to win crucial matches against the best teams in the world? We know it is not a Smith/Farrell midfield and therefore just drop that regardless of who is actually available. Are Malins and OHC the answer on the wings and if not then make the changes now....Watson and Arundell? Quirke on the bench and let's play with pace. Ribbans to start in place of Itoje who is clearly not on form.

by Geordie Mon 06 Feb 2023, 9:46 am

Do Scotland score those tries if England have a rock solid midfield?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Feb 2023, 9:48 am

Geordie wrote:Do Scotland score those tries if England have a rock solid midfield?

They score the VDM individual one, as it's a bit of a poor disjointed chase, and a bit of magic. The best bit is the change of ball to the left hand when Dombrandt is targeting it which allows the handoff. In mid avoidance of vP too, that really was very nice.

by Geordie Mon 06 Feb 2023, 10:03 am

If Slade is fit and comes back in...then Malins is out for me.
If Slade is not in and Marchant or Lawrence run out at 13...i suspect you'll see Malins still there.

I hope Kelly is fit. Not thats hes "the saviour"...just the young quality 12 we've been crying out for.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 06 Feb 2023, 10:06 am

Geordie wrote:Do Scotland score those tries if England have a rock solid midfield?

The initial burst was really quality and these things happen for me....I can forgive for his step out as realistically he has another 6 tacklers behind him. Even Chessum perhaps should have done better but at least made a jist of it. JVP, Dombrandt and Steward are just embarressing....it looks even worse in slow mo!

by mountain man Mon 06 Feb 2023, 10:09 am

VdM went through 5 would be tackles, that is shocking. Great try but really really poor from England. Not just fault of Dombrandt.

by TJ Mon 06 Feb 2023, 10:18 am

Geordie wrote:Do Scotland score those tries if England have a rock solid midfield?

Perhaps in a different way - its What Russell is top notch at - finding holes in defenses. Rushing Russell hurries him but he is used to that and it creates space outside him. don't blitz him and he creates space in a different way

Also its somewhat dismissive of how good Duhan is to put it all down to bad tackling. IIRC he topped the stats in the URC for players beaten. Those of us that watch him week in week out are used to seeing him break tackles and step folk all the time. sometimes its down to the opposition being good not you being bad

by lostinwales Mon 06 Feb 2023, 10:20 am

mountain man wrote:Ben C is about a stone lighter than Tom and it showed but it's not just size is issue.
Seems we're on similar wavelength for 2nd row, backrow, 10 and centres. Marchant wasn't great but then he was outside Smith Farrell which as always didn't work. I would like to see Lawrence get a start at 13 and see how he goes.
However I wonder how much Borthwick will change.

Lawrence has been tried outside of Farrell. He got one or two passes over what? 3/4 games? And as a result looked rubbish - a bit like Marchant on Saturday.

We really need to ditch Farrell to move on.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Feb 2023, 10:21 am

TJ wrote:
Geordie wrote:Do Scotland score those tries if England have a rock solid midfield?

Perhaps in a different way - its What Russell is top notch at - finding holes in defenses. Rushing Russell hurries him but he is used to that and it creates space outside him. don't blitz him and he creates space in a different way

Also its somewhat dismissive of how good Duhan is to put it all down to bad tackling. IIRC he topped the stats in the URC for players beaten. Those of us that watch him week in week out are used to seeing him break tackles and step folk all the time. sometimes its down to the opposition being good not you being bad

Once he's gone past the first tackle, it opens up, but the kick chase was bad which allowed the chance. You really find few instances of tries though where a mistake isn't made.

by mountain man Mon 06 Feb 2023, 10:29 am

lostinwales wrote:
mountain man wrote:Ben C is about a stone lighter than Tom and it showed but it's not just size is issue.
Seems we're on similar wavelength for 2nd row, backrow, 10 and centres. Marchant wasn't great but then he was outside Smith Farrell which as always didn't work. I would like to see Lawrence get a start at 13 and see how he goes.
However I wonder how much Borthwick will change.

Lawrence has been tried outside of Farrell. He got one or two passes over what? 3/4 games? And as a result looked rubbish - a bit like Marchant on Saturday.

We really need to ditch Farrell to move on.

Yes and after that match Jones didn't pick Lawrence again. Issue is Farrell is Borthwicks captain and I said this before he's put himself in hole by having to pick him. Farrell won't be ditched so I would start him at 10 with Smith bench. 12 is a BIG problem, so it's who is there. Does he recall Manu or hope likes of Kelly is fit. Either Lawrence or Marchant 13 is fine by me with other on bench.

Anyway, Borthwick probably stick to same team nigh on for Italy, win but then we won't have learnt a lot. Feck knows...

by doctor_grey Mon 06 Feb 2023, 10:31 am

TJ wrote:
Geordie wrote:Do Scotland score those tries if England have a rock solid midfield?

Perhaps in a different way - its What Russell is top notch at - finding holes in defenses. Rushing Russell hurries him but he is used to that and it creates space outside him. don't blitz him and he creates space in a different way

Also its somewhat dismissive of how good Duhan is to put it all down to bad tackling. IIRC he topped the stats in the URC for players beaten. Those of us that watch him week in week out are used to seeing him break tackles and step folk all the time. sometimes its down to the opposition being good not you being bad

TJ, that's a fair point and no question that VdM try was simply brilliant and likely there are not more than a handful of players at international level who could pull it off. Probably the try of the year and we are only in February.

On the English side all the gnashing of the teeth, at least to me, is about how so many players totally whiffed on him and were stepped so easily. I don't think anyone is understating the effort and the try - they better not because this will be shown on replays for a long time to come and certainly leading up to the Calcutta Cup match every year - just the shoddy tackling efforts which helped. But I can see your point looking back at the comments.

by mountain man Mon 06 Feb 2023, 10:41 am

Sorry but although it was a great try and taking nothing away from VdM, watch it again and the tackling is woeful.

by majesticimperialman Mon 06 Feb 2023, 10:50 am

England dod not play to bad at the week end it is just that Scotland played better . O am just wandering willBorthwick stick with Smith Farrell set up> which in mt mnd i not working

or does he chabge the set up and bring in new players?

by sensisball Mon 06 Feb 2023, 11:04 am

Three major improvements from Scotland's, and Glasgow's, coaching teams made a massive difference on Saturday:

1) Townsend, for once, picked on form. Hence White starting and not even the bench for Price. Tiupulotu and Jones were a thorn in England's flesh outside Russell who, generally delivered quick and accurate passes to his midfield.

2) The former attach coach, Ab Zondagh, left to go to a French T14 club. Scotland have picked up Brad Mooare, the former AB's attack coach for the 6 Nations. He clearly had a massive impact as the backs haven't played with such ambition and accuracy for the full 80 under Townsend before.

3) Franco Smith (the Glasgow head coach) has reinvigorated the Glasgow players and they have brought their excellent club form into the Scotland team: Turner, R Gray, M Fagerson, Tuipulotu, Jones, Steyn, Bhatti, Brown, Dempsey and Horne. That's 10 of the match day squad playing as well, or better, than they have in the past.

And finally the weather played it's part. A dry day allowed Scotland to use the game plan that went round Sinfield's rush defence, finding space on the edges to get in behind it, as well as go through it with the most potent midfield Scotland have fielded since Leslie and Tait in 99.

by TJ Mon 06 Feb 2023, 11:10 am

mountain man wrote:Sorry but although it was a great try and taking nothing away from VdM, watch it again and the tackling is woeful.

Or is the acceleration and step world class? ( dombrants was woeful I grant you

by dummy_half Mon 06 Feb 2023, 11:39 am

TJ wrote:
mountain man wrote:Sorry but although it was a great try and taking nothing away from VdM, watch it again and the tackling is woeful.

Or is the acceleration and step world class? ( dombrants was woeful I grant you

My take on VdM's try was that there was a poor kick (too long, or should have been to touch) and a system error in England's defensive alignment that created the gap. Once a player as good as DVdM is at speed and running through the middle of the pitch, it's a nightmare for cover defenders, as he can go either way. Only really Dombrandt that could get a good contact on him, and I think by then a lower tackle attempt would likely have ended with him going over the line anyway.

White's try came from an individual defensive mistake from Curry.

Jines try came following another system / alignment error between Farrell and Marchant in midfield that led to the first line break.

Actually thought England's attacking play was OK until the last 15 or so - better attempt at high tempo, but we do seem short of a couple of real game breakers ball in hand.

by Heaf Mon 06 Feb 2023, 12:19 pm

TJ wrote:
Geordie wrote:Do Scotland score those tries if England have a rock solid midfield?

Perhaps in a different way - its What Russell is top notch at - finding holes in defenses. Rushing Russell hurries him but he is used to that and it creates space outside him. don't blitz him and he creates space in a different way

Also its somewhat dismissive of how good Duhan is to put it all down to bad tackling. IIRC he topped the stats in the URC for players beaten. Those of us that watch him week in week out are used to seeing him break tackles and step folk all the time. sometimes its down to the opposition being good not you being bad

For me it was about 2/3 good and 1/3 bad ...

by geoff999rugby Mon 06 Feb 2023, 12:20 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:England dod not play to bad at the week end it is just that Scotland played better . O am just wandering willBorthwick stick with Smith Farrell set up> which in mt mnd i not working

or does he chabge the set up and bring in new players?

I thought England were woeful in two areas.

Backrow - Curry awful, Dombrandt very poor.
When will they stop the Smith - Farrell combination. Choose one at 10 and drop the other.
At 9,10,12,13 England just don't click and have the worse combination in those position of any team in the tournament

by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Feb 2023, 1:16 pm

dummy_half wrote:
TJ wrote:
mountain man wrote:Sorry but although it was a great try and taking nothing away from VdM, watch it again and the tackling is woeful.

Or is the acceleration and step world class? ( dombrants was woeful I grant you

My take on VdM's try was that there was a poor kick (too long, or should have been to touch) and a system error in England's defensive alignment that created the gap. Once a player as good as DVdM is at speed and running through the middle of the pitch, it's a nightmare for cover defenders, as he can go either way. Only really Dombrandt that could get a good contact on him, and I think by then a lower tackle attempt would likely have ended with him going over the line anyway.

See I think the kick was on the money, it wasn't meant to be contested. I think the point was to put VDM in the mind that there was a good kick chase (given there was three backs leading it including the two centres it damn well should have been one) and he's on the edge of his 22 so just to kick it out under pressure. He's not a great kicker of the ball and under pressure England net gain is good and get possession back. England manufactured a number of instances similarly in the game and used it as a way to get up the pitch.

The issue around that was that as soon as Marchant leaves the space big enough for a bus to drive through then Farrell is always getting beaten for pace by VDM. Once he's running up the centre of the pitch in acres of space he's able to pick off the remaining defenders one at a time. When you're as quick, nimble and strong as VDM then one on one is where you want to be all day long as you'll back yourself to beat anybody one vs one in space. JVP actually slows him slightly which allows Dombrandt to get there in maybe a bigger way than he expected.

The end tackle from Dombrandt is still really poor but defensive alignment in the midfield undid us time and time again. Scotland have got a good backline and they were able to pry open that hole again and again. Its a huge issue England need to sort.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Feb 2023, 1:37 pm

I still don't get why more credit is being given to VDM on that last bit. Dombrandt is targeting the ball as the likelihood is if he goes low momentum still carries VDM over. VDM's ball change to left hand allows him to then get the handoff and keeps the ball from being slapped out by Dombrandt at the same time. Really nice play.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Feb 2023, 1:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I still don't get why more credit is being given to VDM on that last bit. Dombrandt is targeting the ball as the likelihood is if he goes low momentum still carries VDM over. VDM's ball change to left hand allows him to then get the handoff and keeps the ball from being slapped out by Dombrandt at the same time. Really nice play.

In that much space and with a player as upright it's a fairly easy hand off as you can both hand off and then step away from the tackler. Makes it very easy to create a gap between you and the would be tackler. There was also plenty of chest there to get really good purchase with the hand off.

by TJ Mon 06 Feb 2023, 1:59 pm

but defensive alignment in the midfield undid us time and time again. Scotland have got a good backline and they were able to pry open that hole again and again.

that was because they were clearly under instruction to go after Russell to deny him time and space. If he beats the blitz then gaps open. dunno how much homework Borthwick and his team have done but Russell does not retreat under that pressure to find more time - he relishes the possibilities it gives him with passes round the back of the tackler, steps and so on

by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Feb 2023, 2:07 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I still don't get why more credit is being given to VDM on that last bit. Dombrandt is targeting the ball as the likelihood is if he goes low momentum still carries VDM over. VDM's ball change to left hand allows him to then get the handoff and keeps the ball from being slapped out by Dombrandt at the same time. Really nice play.

In that much space and with a player as upright it's a fairly easy hand off as you can both hand off and then step away from the tackler. Makes it very easy to create a gap between you and the would be tackler. There was also plenty of chest there to get really good purchase with the hand off.

He was currently hurdling vP at the point!

by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Feb 2023, 3:05 pm

TJ wrote:
but defensive alignment in the midfield undid us time and time again. Scotland have got a good backline and they were able to pry open that hole again and again.

that was because they were clearly under instruction to go after Russell to deny him time and space. If he beats the blitz then gaps open. dunno how much homework Borthwick and his team have done but Russell does not retreat under that pressure to find more time - he relishes the possibilities it gives him with passes round the back of the tackler, steps and so on

I mean yes and no. Most teams target the opposition halfbacks and in a backline without a dedicated secondary distributor applying pressure to a flyhalf that, as you say, is matador esque in his insistence of playing to the line. The issue tended to be how often Farrell flew out the line to do that, he got some big hits in on Russell but he also left a lot of space that gave Scotland line breaks. I can't imagine Sinfield will be happy in anyway shape or form about this, it's not how Tigers defended previously and is pretty much the opposite of the normal League style defence which focuses on a consistent aggressive line speed.

England won't have been coached to leave gaps and come out the line like that. Wasn't just Farrell over committing either with Marchant getting caught a couple of times as well. Scotland made hay, other teams will as well. A defensive leader is a must for England. Ideally Kelly but could also be Slade.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Feb 2023, 7:20 pm

Murley dropped from the squad. Slade and Arundell back. For some reason Ben Youngs is still there.

by Margin_Walker Mon 06 Feb 2023, 7:52 pm

Porter also out.

by majesticimperialman Mon 06 Feb 2023, 9:01 pm

Italy jave never beaten England in the 5naruins. I just hope England do not think this game will be a easy win FOE England. Any one who watched Italy v France will know how close Italy cane to winning that game.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Feb 2023, 9:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Murley dropped from the squad. Slade and Arundell back. For some reason Ben Youngs is still there.

The big news is that Kelly is rumoured to be out for 10 weeks which is a blow as he was allegedly going to start at 12 Vs Scotland.

by Mr Bounce Mon 06 Feb 2023, 11:06 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Murley dropped from the squad. Slade and Arundell back. For some reason Ben Youngs is still there.

The big news is that Kelly is rumoured to be out for 10 weeks which is a blow as he was allegedly going to start at 12 Vs Scotland.

Feel sorry for Kelly. He has had some nasty injury issues - he could have been in the teens cap-wise by now. Shame. I am hoping that Youngs is now simply holding tackle bags and arranging social events. Please start Mitchell or have him on the bench. At least he won't be as ponderous...

Hopefully Arundell can bring some spark back to the squad and be the winger we need.

by doctor_grey Tue 07 Feb 2023, 12:05 am

majesticimperialman wrote:Italy jave never beaten England in the 5naruins. I just hope England do not think this game will be a easy win FOE England. Any one who watched Italy v France will know how close Italy cane to winning that game.

I don't think this England squad can afford to take anyone lightly. Ad if they do, then doom on England...

by yappysnap Tue 07 Feb 2023, 1:12 am

How is Ben Youngs still in the squad? Baffling.

by doctor_grey Tue 07 Feb 2023, 6:42 am

yappysnap wrote:How is Ben Youngs still in the squad? Baffling.

The way I understand the situation, Youngs has pictures of Borthwick in a hotel room with a bottle of cooking oil, a trapeze, a blow up doll, barnyard animals, and a set of whips and chains. The problem for former Tigers coach Borthwick is the hotel room is in Northampton.

by mountain man Tue 07 Feb 2023, 8:26 am

So if Kelly is out does that mean England will have Smith Farrell again? Or does Slade get in to break up the ill fated rugby bromance.
Less said about Youngs being included the better.
England need to be wary of Italy as I'm sure they will. They "should" win especially at home but a rash moment resulting in a red card and Italy could win for sure. Hence my unease to see Hill still in squad. I would change 2nd row though, Itoje to bench and start Cheesum and Ribbans/Isiekwe.

When is 23 announced, Friday as it's a Sunday game?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Feb 2023, 8:46 am

This is the match where I thought we may well see F Smith on the bench; slightly more pressure already on Borthwick though. It'll be Friday for the match day squad yes, at least that's the latest he can announce it.

Personally don't think that Iseikwe did himself many favours on Saturday, just not in Itoje's league either.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 07 Feb 2023, 8:52 am

No great shakes with Kelly being out I don't think, although this will only enhance his every growing reputation as the next Ma'a Nonu.

I'd be tempted to stick with the same 10-13 (changing JVP for Mitchell) with Lawrence coving the 2 positions from the bench. Perhaps look at giving Lawrence some more game time from the bench time if possible.

Wings.....Malins getting a brace stops him from missing out unfortunately and I'd give OHC another game despite not particularly rating him.

by TJ Tue 07 Feb 2023, 8:53 am

As a Scots fan - englands ruck speed was much faster than Scotlands according to the on screen stats. Youngs box kicking is surely done to instruction

No 10 plays totally off the cuff / what is in front of them. Russell certainly does not - a lot of pre planned moves where the aim is to get Russell into a position he has 2 or 3 choices of what to do. He will also call the plays to the other backs so they know whats coming

Englands issue to me was that 1) there was only one option for the passer most of the time and 2) no wrap around etc to create an overlap

From early on in the game it was obvious england were going after Russell to cut down his time / space and options which was countered by a quick miss pass getting Scotland outside the blitz and stopping the drift or by Russell attempting the pass out of the tackle to a close player

Where England lost the game was in the tactics played. Scotland were able to create mismatches and space in the backs. England rarely were able to do so.

Late on in the game Smith appeared to get frustrated with the lack of options so kept on trying to create something on his own - the problem being the rest of the team are not on the same wavelength and he ran up blind alleys too often

by BamBam Tue 07 Feb 2023, 9:08 am

Youngs might be kicking under instruction but I’m quite sure the instructions are not to boot it 15m further than even the quickest chaser can get to

I said some very bad words when we had the penalty advantage and he decided to practice his Gaelic football goal scoring

by Geordie Tue 07 Feb 2023, 9:18 am

Real shame about Kelly. The lad has no luck.

Well it'll be Smith, Farrell and probably slade then.

by mountain man Tue 07 Feb 2023, 9:22 am

Well it'll be Smith, Farrell and probably slade then.

with Youngs on bench, yay!

by Geordie Tue 07 Feb 2023, 9:25 am

So whos the next hope...

Seb Atkinson..? Seems to have started well at Glos.
Olly Hartley...has he even played a prem game for Sarries yet?
Max Ojomoh?

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