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England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 13 Feb - 17:16

First topic message reminder :

Continued.......

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Post by Yoda Fri 17 Feb - 23:52

I like Ludlum, have been really impressed. He surprised me by how versatile he is. He's taken loads of lineouts and done the hard yards. His tackling is excellent and he actually looks like he can play across the back row. Dropping him now would be harsh and unwarranted bearing in mind SB mantra is if playing well and on form you're playing. He looks like a popular member of the squad too so lads will get behind him which is a dynamic rarely thought about.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 18 Feb - 0:37

Yoda wrote:I like Ludlum, have been really impressed. He surprised me by how versatile he is. He's taken loads of lineouts and done the hard yards. His tackling is excellent and he actually looks like he can play across the back row. Dropping him now would be harsh and unwarranted bearing in mind SB mantra is if playing well and on form you're playing. He looks like a popular member of the squad too so lads will get behind him which is a dynamic rarely thought about.
I think Ludlum has progressed every season and he continues to improve his all-action approach. Usually delivers for the full 80 not coming off after 55 or 60.  And yes, he has started across the back row at Saints and is a very good option at each.  He enjoys the donkey work and gives flexibility to the roster.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 18 Feb - 1:54

Willis, Ludlam and Dombrandt in the first 40 minutes looked like it could become a very effective and balanced back row given time together. There are some unorthodox aspects to it - Ludlam doing much of the tight carrying, Dombrandt pairing up with Willis on the breakdown and lifting rather than jumping in the lineout - but it was working well. Add T Curry back into the mix and you have multiple options in each position.

I wasn't initially a huge fan of Ludlam but I can now see why coaches like him: he is good at most things and does them at a high workrate. He doesn't have an obvious, flashy point of difference, but he makes the rest of the back row work better.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 18 Feb - 2:43

Poorfour wrote:Willis, Ludlam and Dombrandt in the first 40 minutes looked like it could become a very effective and balanced back row given time together. There are some unorthodox aspects to it - Ludlam doing much of the tight carrying, Dombrandt pairing up with Willis on the breakdown and lifting rather than jumping in the lineout - but it was working well. Add T Curry back into the mix and you have multiple options in each position.

I wasn't initially a huge fan of Ludlam but I can now see why coaches like him: he is good at most things and does them at a high workrate. He doesn't have an obvious, flashy point of difference, but he makes the rest of the back row work better.
Very true, but he does run attacking unders lines that would make any centre orgasmically proud.

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Post by Yoda Sat 18 Feb - 21:12

doctor_grey wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Willis, Ludlam and Dombrandt in the first 40 minutes looked like it could become a very effective and balanced back row given time together. There are some unorthodox aspects to it - Ludlam doing much of the tight carrying, Dombrandt pairing up with Willis on the breakdown and lifting rather than jumping in the lineout - but it was working well. Add T Curry back into the mix and you have multiple options in each position.

I wasn't initially a huge fan of Ludlam but I can now see why coaches like him: he is good at most things and does them at a high workrate. He doesn't have an obvious, flashy point of difference, but he makes the rest of the back row work better.
Very true, but he does run attacking unders lines that would make any centre orgasmically proud.

I don't know about stimulating coaches with runs but he did do something that many England forwards and in fact backs have failed to do which was draw and pass on a two on one situation that lead to an easy try. How many times have we seen England players balls that simple job up?

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 19 Feb - 2:20

Manu Tuilagi has just been red carded for a dangerous fend. A ban could put him out of contention for the remainder of the Six Nations.


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Post by doctor_grey Sun 19 Feb - 5:05

Yoda wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Willis, Ludlam and Dombrandt in the first 40 minutes looked like it could become a very effective and balanced back row given time together. There are some unorthodox aspects to it - Ludlam doing much of the tight carrying, Dombrandt pairing up with Willis on the breakdown and lifting rather than jumping in the lineout - but it was working well. Add T Curry back into the mix and you have multiple options in each position.

I wasn't initially a huge fan of Ludlam but I can now see why coaches like him: he is good at most things and does them at a high workrate. He doesn't have an obvious, flashy point of difference, but he makes the rest of the back row work better.
Very true, but he does run attacking unders lines that would make any centre orgasmically proud.

I don't know about stimulating coaches with runs but he did do something that many England forwards and in fact backs have failed to do which was draw and pass on a two on one situation that lead to an easy try. How many times have we seen England players balls that simple job up?
All Saints forwards have good ball skills. They work on it constantly and have for years now. We saw Ribbans ball skills against the ABs in the autumn. Lawes is similar.

Tuilagi is probably out for a while. He was the ball carrier and tried to fend a defender - with a forearm to the neck or chin. No question about the red. When he saw it on the replay, he cringed a bit and it was easy to see he knew he was going off.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sun 19 Feb - 8:14

Rugby Fan wrote:Manu Tuilagi has just been red carded for a dangerous fend. A ban could put him out of contention for the remainder of the Six Nations.


Have to say, with Manu's more recent form I can't say he's a big loss. He's a luxury player who's been great when he's on it, but Jones tried to use him when he was half broken and he's never really regained his form of 2019. There are currently better options in my opinion.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Feb - 5:05

Rfu:

There are returns from injury for Tom Curry, George Ford and vice-captain Courtney Lawes.

Win a signed England Men's shirt
Uncapped duo Fraser Dingwall and Cadan Murley are also named in the squad, who have met up today at the Honda England Rugby Performance Centre at Pennyhill Park, Bagshot.

Ollie Hassell-Collins was unavailable for selection due to a knee issue.

Wales v England is live on BBC One and BBC Radio 5 Live.

SQUAD
Forwards
Ollie Chessum

Dan Cole

Tom Curry

Alex Dombrandt

Tom Dunn

Ben Earl

Ellis Genge

Jamie George

Nick Isiekwe

Maro Itoje

Courtney Lawes

Lewis Ludlam

David Ribbans

Bevan Rodd

Sam Simmonds

Kyle Sinckler

Will Stuart

Mako Vunipola

Jack Walker

Jack Willis

Backs
Henry Arundell

Fraser Dingwall

Owen Farrell

Tommy Freeman

George Ford

Ollie Lawrence

Max Malins

Joe Marchant

Alex Mitchell

Cadan Murley

Henry Slade

Marcus Smith

Freddie Steward

Jack van Poortvliet

Anthony Watson

Ben Youngs

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Feb - 5:08

We have at least confirmed that Borthwick doesn't pick on form.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 20 Feb - 5:54

No 7&1/2 wrote:We have at least confirmed that Borthwick doesn't pick on form.

Or he wants some more experience in the squad, adding Lawes, Curry and Ford adds something like 200 caps. Even if they don't make the 23 they will add a lot in the camp during the week.

Out - Hill, Heyes, B Curry, F Smith, Tuilagi, OHC
In - Lawes, Stuart, T Curry, Ford, Dingwall, Murley

Hill is bang out of form and was poor for Sale Vs Saints, replacing him with Lawes makes a lot of sense. Heyes form hasn't been as good as Cole or Sinckler whilst Stuart is a superior player. Ben Curry has his chance and blew it, his brother had a great game Vs Saints. Fin Smith is unlucky but Ford will add a lot to the England camp having spent his time injured helping coach the Sale attack. Dingwall has been in form all season whilst Manu has been patchy. OHC for Murley is for injury.

Who did you want to see come in?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Feb - 5:58

Oh I get he'll have his reason etc but we've moved quickly away from his quotes around the Scotland match where form was the most important thing. I don't mind, don't think anyone picks on form consistently either from coaches or us in the stands.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Feb - 5:58

In terms of who I'd have in, it remains Rapava-Ruskin.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 20 Feb - 6:06

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:We have at least confirmed that Borthwick doesn't pick on form.

Or he wants some more experience in the squad, adding Lawes, Curry and Ford adds something like 200 caps. Even if they don't make the 23 they will add a lot in the camp during the week.

Out - Hill, Heyes, B Curry, F Smith, Tuilagi, OHC
In - Lawes, Stuart, T Curry, Ford, Dingwall, Murley

Hill is bang out of form and was poor for Sale Vs Saints, replacing him with Lawes makes a lot of sense. Heyes form hasn't been as good as Cole or Sinckler whilst Stuart is a superior player. Ben Curry has his chance and blew it, his brother had a great game Vs Saints. Fin Smith is unlucky but Ford will add a lot to the England camp having spent his time injured helping coach the Sale attack. Dingwall has been in form all season whilst Manu has been patchy. OHC for Murley is for injury.

Who did you want to see come in?
Fin Smith came off injured yesterday and will be unable to train with the team at least until the results from his scans/exams come back.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Hill is bang out of form and was poor for Sale Vs Saints, replacing him with Lawes makes a lot of sense.
Replacing Hill with my sister's brother-in-law's sister-in-law's brother would also make sense.  By that I mean almost anyone is an improvement. That is how much I would like to see him dropped.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 20 Feb - 6:42

No 7&1/2 wrote:In terms of who I'd have in, it remains Rapava-Ruskin.

I suspect Borthwick is limited by the amount of changes he can make to his EPS and as all three looseheads remain fit he hasn't got a lot of options unless he opts to have four looseheads in and go lighter somewhere else. VRR has been in ridiculously good form.

Thanks Doc for the above. I knew Fin Smith had gone off but didn't know if it was precautionary or something more serious. Hopefully he's just a bit banged up and back on the training field soon.

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Post by majesticimperialman Mon 20 Feb - 7:09

George Ford called into the England training squad for the game against Wales in cardiff But the point id will there be a game against Wales? any one heard any news about the game?

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 20 Feb - 8:19

majesticimperialman wrote:George Ford called into the England training squad for the game against Wales in  cardiff But the point id will there be a game against Wales? any one heard any news about the game?
No news as of yet. I don't think the Wales players want to strike, and were clear it is a step of last resort. With that in mind, unless talks collapse completely, the players probably won't make their decision until the last possible moment, my guess is mid-week.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 20 Feb - 15:15

I don't think the 6 missing will be a loss and there's some serious quality getting added.

OHC injury could be a blessing in disguise as we might actually get to see somebody with a bit of quality on the wing instead (insert any of the other wingers).

I agree on VPR too, he's having an outstanding season and should be in the 23 behind Genge. I didn't realise he was brought up here from an early age, I always presumed he was quite recent EQ.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Feb - 18:22

I'm still not understanding anyone who has watched Malins and Hassell-Collins these first 2 games and thinks it's the latter who lacks quality.

On your point on the eps Sam there are people coming into it now suck as Ford in areas were stronger in than loosehead. Good player that he is he's not had long on the pitch for Sale and we already have Farrell and Smith to cover fly half. Vunipola hasn't had one of his mares in the scrum as yet but we're coming up to France and Ireland. Get him in.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 20 Feb - 19:21

No 7&1/2 wrote:...On your point on the eps Sam there are people coming into it now suck as Ford in areas were stronger in than loosehead...

Ford was injured, and is now available, which I believe makes a difference as far as the EPS changes is concerned. Likewise for Stuart, Lawes and Tom Curry. Dingwall and Murley are in for two players who are now unavailable.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Feb - 19:38

So little transparency if that's true.

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Post by Geordie Mon 20 Feb - 19:39

Rugby Fan wrote:Manu Tuilagi has just been red carded for a dangerous fend. A ban could put him out of contention for the remainder of the Six Nations.


Well with Kelly, Slade, Atkinson pulling up trees for Glos this weekend and Lawrence, that should be the end of the nonsense of him being picked as soon as hes fit these days.

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Post by Geordie Mon 20 Feb - 19:41

George martin put in some crunching tackles this weekend...its him v Ted Hill for that 6 spot post WC.

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Post by mountain man Mon 20 Feb - 19:47

No-one wondering why the feck Youngs is still in training squad?
Ford not ready, yet. Problem is, as and when he is and if Borthwick picks him we could see Farrell back at 12 which is an awful thought.
Farrell is 10 or nothing.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 20 Feb - 19:48

Geordie wrote:George martin put in some crunching tackles this weekend...its him v Ted Hill for that 6 spot post WC.

I like Martin...he's really slipped out of contention over the last 18 months or so though.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 20 Feb - 20:23

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm still not understanding anyone who has watched Malins and Hassell-Collins these first 2 games and thinks it's the latter who lacks quality.


I'm far from a Malins on the wing fan......

V Scotland.....................

................................Passes....Runs......metres......DB.....CB......offload.....Tackles.......missed tackles......tries...

Malins..........................3..........9............53...........1........0..........0.............6....................4..................2......
OHC............................0..........8..............76..........1........0..........0.............2....................0..................0.....

V Italy................

................................Passes....Runs......metres......DB.....CB......offload.....Tackles.......missed tackles......tries...

Malins..........................3..........4............34...........4........1..........1.............8....................2..................0...
OHC............................1..........2..............8...........0........0..........0.............4....................2..................0...


The stats don't make great reading from both I don't think and you could argue OHC looked the better player on paper V Scotland...........although Malins was up against DVM, possibly the best winger in the game right now.

OHC stats against Italy make pretty awful reading. 1 pass in 2 games doesn't look particularly great either.......

Personally, I thought Malins was the better player in both games (I wouldn't start either on the wing tbh), the stats certainly back this up in the 2nd game. We're also missing kicking stats and Malins did kick well in both games imo.

Stats for me need context and they suggest that Malins improved in the 2nd game (this seems to be common consensus?) were OHC did not......in fact it would appear he got worse (something I would agree with).

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 20 Feb - 20:32

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Geordie wrote:George martin put in some crunching tackles this weekend...its him v Ted Hill for that 6 spot post WC.

I like Martin...he's really slipped out of contention over the last 18 months or so though.

Was asked to work on his carrying which he really has done. A move away from a lock at 6 bar Lawes means it's unlikely he'll get a look in there but it seems he's making his long discussed move forwards. He played lock at the weekend, for the full 80 mins and was able to do the job there as well as make a couple of really good carries and about half dozen brutal tackles, great technique. I think that was his third or fourth start there in the last couple of months.

If he plays lock from now until the end of the season then he might make the world cup squad though is unlikely to break into the 23.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Feb - 20:34

Looks to me that Hassell-Collins hasn't got the ball as much from the stats, and that's pretty much what I've seen in the games.

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Post by Geordie Mon 20 Feb - 20:35

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Geordie wrote:George martin put in some crunching tackles this weekend...its him v Ted Hill for that 6 spot post WC.

I like Martin...he's really slipped out of contention over the last 18 months or so though.

Was asked to work on his carrying which he really has done. A move away from a lock at 6 bar Lawes means it's unlikely he'll get a look in there but it seems he's making his long discussed move forwards. He played lock at the weekend, for the full 80 mins and was able to do the job there as well as make a couple of really good carries and about half dozen brutal tackles, great technique. I think that was his third or fourth start there in the last couple of months.

If he plays lock from now until the end of the season then he might make the world cup squad though is unlikely to break into the 23.

So for Kay and Johnson see Martin and Chessum Snr?

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Post by Geordie Mon 20 Feb - 20:37

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Geordie wrote:George martin put in some crunching tackles this weekend...its him v Ted Hill for that 6 spot post WC.

I like Martin...he's really slipped out of contention over the last 18 months or so though.

Was asked to work on his carrying which he really has done. A move away from a lock at 6 bar Lawes means it's unlikely he'll get a look in there but it seems he's making his long discussed move forwards. He played lock at the weekend, for the full 80 mins and was able to do the job there as well as make a couple of really good carries and about half dozen brutal tackles, great technique. I think that was his third or fourth start there in the last couple of months.

If he plays lock from now until the end of the season then he might make the world cup squad though is unlikely to break into the 23.

Is that confirmed? I know Ludlum is playing there but id be amazed if he stayed there long term....i still think a big mobile 6 is desired..

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 20 Feb - 20:51

mountain man wrote:No-one wondering why the feck Youngs is still in training squad?
Ford not ready, yet. Problem is, as and when he is and if Borthwick picks him we could see Farrell back at 12 which is an awful thought.
Farrell is 10 or nothing.

Two things on Youngs the first is that EPS restrictions mean there's limitations on what Borthwick can do. See above re VRR. Second is that he'd shredded the Sarries defence in the first 25/30 mins of the game at the weekend. If you're going to have an experienced third choice in the squad then having one that can still do that is always useful.

Ford won't be ready yet but Fin Smith is injured and Ford is brilliant at slowly working over defences to find where they are weakest. It'll be good for him to be in the squad helping them plan for the Wales game.

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Post by mountain man Mon 20 Feb - 20:59

Yes I see the logic regarding Youngs, it's just in reality for England its not working.
I guess we wait and see what the match day 23 is and go from there.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 20 Feb - 21:00

No 7&1/2 wrote:Looks to me that Hassell-Collins hasn't got the ball as much from the stats, and that's pretty much what I've seen in the games.

Didn't get it/Didn't go looking for it/struggled to get involved..................didn't do anything when he did get it.

But apart from that, I agree.

There's no defending OHC in the Italy game, he was just poor. Perhaps he'll improve, it's still early days......but I think we have many better options and I'm I'm quite happy somebody else will get a shot this weekend.

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Post by mountain man Mon 20 Feb - 21:19

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Looks to me that Hassell-Collins hasn't got the ball as much from the stats, and that's pretty much what I've seen in the games.

Didn't get it/Didn't go looking for it/struggled to get involved..................didn't do anything when he did get it.

But apart from that, I agree.

There's no defending OHC in the Italy game, he was just poor. Perhaps he'll improve, it's still early days......but I think we have many better options and I'm I'm quite happy somebody else will get a shot this weekend.

Yep I agree regards OHC, didn't get much chance but what he did have he didn't impress. Two games pretty poor really so I'm happy to try someone else. For Wales I'd start Arundell with Murley bench. If LRZ in side, need a speedster to match.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Feb - 21:48

He did go looking for the ball though, didn't get the passes. I guess for me is that I did see Malins get the ball, didn't take the right options, gave penalties away, at fault for a couple of tries (or at least in part for the late try). I don't think he has the speed or the strength to really trouble people at this level. He made that nice break vs Italy and then had to pass as he has nothing there. Now a decent kicking game and some nice touches may be what others want from that position, I want a winger who offers more ball in hand. Would love to see Malins drop out out of the match day squad tbh. I'd have H-C straight back in as I don't think 2 games is enough to judge him. Reminds me of Mays first games.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 20 Feb - 22:04

I agree on Malins, I'm not a big fan. I think he's been a little lucky with some of the moments but has certainly played better than OHC.

I checked the penalty stats, both Malins and OGC gave away 1 pen a piece over the 2 games.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 20 Feb - 22:29

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Geordie wrote:George martin put in some crunching tackles this weekend...its him v Ted Hill for that 6 spot post WC.

I like Martin...he's really slipped out of contention over the last 18 months or so though.

Was asked to work on his carrying which he really has done. A move away from a lock at 6 bar Lawes means it's unlikely he'll get a look in there but it seems he's making his long discussed move forwards. He played lock at the weekend, for the full 80 mins and was able to do the job there as well as make a couple of really good carries and about half dozen brutal tackles, great technique. I think that was his third or fourth start there in the last couple of months.

If he plays lock from now until the end of the season then he might make the world cup squad though is unlikely to break into the 23.

So for Kay and Johnson see Martin and Chessum Snr?

To be fair the lock options coming through at Tigers are pretty special. Ollie Chessum and George Martin are already England capped, Henderson is in the Scotland squad and then Chessum Jnr is England under 20s captain. Tom Manz who was Martin's lock partner at academy level is still knocking around and Rob Carmichael is also in the under 20s. We're well stocked. There's also two 18 year old blindsides playing for England under 20s as well.

Being a genuine hybrid option should help Martin get more game time as Liebenburg is club captain and the normal incumbent at 6 but having both Liebenburg and Martin on the pitch together is a boost for Tigers. No backrow are due to leave in the summer (that I know of) but Hatherall is incoming and a lock (probably Snyman) is likely to go.

If England want a lock/6 to carry on in the Lawes mold post world cup then Martin could be that handy option, particularly as you could drop him into the 19 shirt and have options off the bench as well as being able to pick a 7/8 style backrow. Which is what Borthwick has done with Isiekwe so far and what I suspect he'll do with Lawes Vs Wales.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 20 Feb - 22:33

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I agree on Malins, I'm not a big fan. I think he's been a little lucky with some of the moments but has certainly played better than OHC.

I checked the penalty stats, both Malins and OGC gave away 1 pen a piece over the 2 games.

I'll have to see if it's still recorded as I saw Malins give away 2 in the Italy game alone. H-Cs was for the run back where 2 people didn't clear out the defenders.

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Post by dummy_half Mon 20 Feb - 23:19

My impression is that Malins is a decent rugby player whose skill set is not best utilised by playing on the wing. OH-C looks more like a specialist winger, but hasn't exactly shown up so far for England - obviously, wingers rely a lot on those inside them creating opportunities, but you can usually see those that have something special about them and it just doesn't look to be there with him.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 20 Feb - 23:55

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm still not understanding anyone who has watched Malins and Hassell-Collins these first 2 games and thinks it's the latter who lacks quality.


I'm far from a Malins on the wing fan......

V Scotland.....................

................................Passes....Runs......metres......DB.....CB......offload.....Tackles.......missed tackles......tries...

Malins..........................3..........9............53...........1........0..........0.............6....................4..................2......
OHC............................0..........8..............76..........1........0..........0.............2....................0..................0.....

V Italy................

................................Passes....Runs......metres......DB.....CB......offload.....Tackles.......missed tackles......tries...

Malins..........................3..........4............34...........4........1..........1.............8....................2..................0...
OHC............................1..........2..............8...........0........0..........0.............4....................2..................0...


The stats don't make great reading from both I don't think and you could argue OHC looked the better player on paper V Scotland...........although Malins was up against DVM, possibly the best winger in the game right now.

OHC stats against Italy make pretty awful reading. 1 pass in 2 games doesn't look particularly great either.......

Personally, I thought Malins was the better player in both games (I wouldn't start either on the wing tbh), the stats certainly back this up in the 2nd game. We're also missing kicking stats and Malins did kick well in both games imo.

Stats for me need context and they suggest that Malins improved in the 2nd game (this seems to be common consensus?) were OHC did not......in fact it would appear he got worse (something I would agree with).

Malins first run of England caps ended when he was shown up against better quality opposition. I don't think he has the right tools to cause damage to ( or, crucially, defend against) the best teams. Its all a bit Alex Goode mk2. OHC might have the tools but he hasn't shown it yet. Maybe just lack of opportunity, I don't know.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 21 Feb - 0:17

At this point I think we know Malins ceiling. And for OHC, we don't have time to allow players to develop unless we write off the rest of the Six Nations, which will not go down well with 90% of the fan base. So for me, drop them both.

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Post by Geordie Tue 21 Feb - 3:33

i see theres a rumour from the Rugby Pod that Rapava Ruskin is not in the squad as he cheated on some fitness tests in camp apparently. Not sure how you can cheat in camp on fitness tests...but its why Jones dropped him.....apparently.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 21 Feb - 5:04

doctor_grey wrote:At this point I think we know Malins ceiling.  And for OHC, we don't have time to allow players to develop unless we write off the rest of the Six Nations, which will not go down well with 90% of the fan base.  So for me, drop them both.

I'm with you there Doc....Time is running out and both are clearly not good enough. Malins lacks the wingers instinct and we can't wait another 5 games for OHC to touch the ball again!

Watson is a class act at 14....Freeman looked like he could fit in nicely and Murley definitely has something about him. Throw in Arundell and that's 4 wingers better than the 2 starting.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 21 Feb - 5:50

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:At this point I think we know Malins ceiling.  And for OHC, we don't have time to allow players to develop unless we write off the rest of the Six Nations, which will not go down well with 90% of the fan base.  So for me, drop them both.

I'm with you there Doc....Time is running out and both are clearly not good enough. Malins lacks the wingers instinct and we can't wait another 5 games for OHC to touch the ball again!

Watson is a class act at 14....Freeman looked like he could fit in nicely and Murley definitely has something about him. Throw in Arundell and that's 4 wingers better than the 2 starting.
Hah! At least we can say OHC didn't really do anything wrong because he didn't do anything.

Agree about the four wingers. Watson has been there - done that and at a real high level. Watson and Freeman both cover fullback which gives more options, especially if injuries occur. I would certainly swap out both wingers from the last game.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 21 Feb - 10:06

Largely I like the changes in that squad. Most I think improve the group available. If fit I think Faz, Smith and Ford all hold a place in training squads for their differing skill sets and simply being miles ahead of our other 10s.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Willis 7.Curry 8.Ludlam
9.JvP 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.Walker 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Lawes 20.Earl 21.Mitchelll 22.Smith 23.Marchant

That would probably be my pick from the group there.

Many won't like the back row but Dombrandt just isn't convincing me at international level. Sadly, given how great many of his skills in attack are at Prem level. Ludlam meanwhile has really impressed me with his work rate, lineout work and vitally ability to make yards in traffic. His leg drive after contact is impressive.

I think Makins will continue to start but I just don't rate him as a winger. Good fullback and would deservedly be third choice after Steward and Arundell but not an international winger. He lacks the pace or physicality going forward. Meanwhile in kick chase he frequently looks out of place, will slow down and hang back rather than really pressuring a ball carrier.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 21 Feb - 12:24

I'd love to see Murley get a chance, I think he's the real deal and will show it if he's given a couple of games.

Likewise Lynagh is on the way back and I rate him higher than any of the other wings we're mucking around with in the squad. Only thing Murley and Lynagh really lack is out and out pace, especially if Steward is at 15.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Feb - 19:29

Yeah, still don't get how you criticise someone for not getting the ball. See Lawrence as someone dropped after getting a handful of passes, not looking amazing but not making mistakes vs actually getting a chance or 2. I'm sure whoever starts on the left will now get the ball in a bit of space, or if it's Arundell no space, and score a nice try and there'll still be people here saying there you go!

Of the wingers now in the squad we do have room given the versaltility of 2 of them to play full back to have Murley at least on the bench.

Wales team being announced today. Think it was rumoured that we find out if the match oes ahead tomorrow?

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Post by mountain man Tue 21 Feb - 20:13

Decision on Welsh players striking is tomorrow. Seems a bit odd the team is announced today if we don't know whether game goes ahead or not but still.
I'd be amazed if game called off, too much at stake and if a Wales England 6N match cancelled then repercussions be enormous I'd think. Totally ruin 6N, whoever wins tittle forever have an asterix by it etc etc.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 21 Feb - 21:00

And I don't understand how you think a winger standing out on the wing all game waiting for things to come to him is not worthy of criticism.

Never mind missing 50% of your tackles...and averaging 4m a carry in a game against a sub-standard Italy.

Anyway....he's not playing, so he'll have plenty of time to get those nails painted this weekend.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Tue 21 Feb - 21:46

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And I don't understand how you think a winger standing out on the wing all game waiting for things to come to him is not worthy of criticism.

Never mind missing 50% of your tackles...and averaging 4m a carry in a game against a sub-standard Italy.

Anyway....he's not playing, so he'll have plenty of time to get those nails painted this weekend.

Borthwick should bring back Cokanasiga who comes round into the midfield behind the centres and intimidates opposition defenders with or without the ball. He has been unlucky with injuries but should have been persisted with, rather than Nowell and Malins ( who will be a full time FB when Goode retires).

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