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England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 13 Feb 2023, 6:16 am

First topic message reminder :

Continued.......

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Post by mountain man Tue 21 Feb 2023, 11:02 am

Joe C with ball in hand is a sight to behold unless you're a defender but there's still a few questions on his defence for Int I think.
Who would he replace? I agree I'd take him over Nowell any day but would he replace Arundell or Watson?

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Post by Mr Bounce Tue 21 Feb 2023, 11:23 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:And I don't understand how you think a winger standing out on the wing all game waiting for things to come to him is not worthy of criticism.

Never mind missing 50% of your tackles...and averaging 4m a carry in a game against a sub-standard Italy.

Anyway....he's not playing, so he'll have plenty of time to get those nails painted this weekend.

Borthwick should bring back Cokanasiga who comes round into the midfield behind the centres and intimidates opposition defenders with or without the ball. He has been unlucky with injuries but should have been persisted with, rather than Nowell and Malins ( who will be a full time FB when Goode retires).

Malins is going to Bristol next season so will presumably replace Piutau. Goode can carry on til he is 412.

Agree about Big Joe. He may have some defensive issues but in attack he's a proper weapon.

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Post by Geordie Tue 21 Feb 2023, 11:42 am

Theres a ton of quality young wingers.

Ive always been hugely impressed with Thorley and Sleightholme. Strong physical pacy wingers, but they are quite far down the order in terms of England.

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Post by Oakdene Tue 21 Feb 2023, 11:53 am

Wales have cancelled their team announcement, which should have happened at 12pm today due to the possibility of strike action. Gatland will face the press at 12:30.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 21 Feb 2023, 12:00 pm

Oakdene wrote:Wales have cancelled their team announcement, which should have happened at 12pm today due to the possibility of strike action. Gatland will face the press at 12:30.
I wonder whether that is just common sense, given nothing has yet been decided. Better perhaps to announce first an agreement on a deal, or the lack of one.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 21 Feb 2023, 12:05 pm

Geordie wrote:Theres a ton of quality young wingers.

Ive always been hugely impressed with Thorley and Sleightholme. Strong physical pacy wingers, but they are quite far down the order in terms of England.

Thorley had that one outing then disappeared. Not sure what happened behind the scenes.

Radwan too.

JC seems as injury prone as Simpson-Daniel was

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Post by Geordie Tue 21 Feb 2023, 12:32 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Geordie wrote:Theres a ton of quality young wingers.

Ive always been hugely impressed with Thorley and Sleightholme. Strong physical pacy wingers, but they are quite far down the order in terms of England.

Thorley had that one outing then disappeared. Not sure what happened behind the scenes.

Radwan too.

JC seems as injury prone as Simpson-Daniel was

Radwan did an interview not long ago where he confirmed he had been told to work on certain aspects of his game by Eddie. Maybe he can learn some defensive skills from Mateo Carreras whos as good defensively as he is in attack.

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Post by Oakdene Tue 21 Feb 2023, 12:41 pm

Oakdene wrote:Wales have cancelled their team announcement, which should have happened at 12pm today due to the possibility of strike action. Gatland will face the press at 12:30.

And Gatland is now delayed arriving to the press conference.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Feb 2023, 1:41 pm

Bonus point win incoming?

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Post by Geordie Tue 21 Feb 2023, 2:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bonus point win incoming?

Im Sure Borthers would prefer getting his team on the pitch with some opposition....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Feb 2023, 2:46 pm

Reckon the RFU and PRL have more than half an eye of the results of the strike/agreement too.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 21 Feb 2023, 3:03 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:And I don't understand how you think a winger standing out on the wing all game waiting for things to come to him is not worthy of criticism.

Never mind missing 50% of your tackles...and averaging 4m a carry in a game against a sub-standard Italy.

Anyway....he's not playing, so he'll have plenty of time to get those nails painted this weekend.

Borthwick should bring back Cokanasiga who comes round into the midfield behind the centres and intimidates opposition defenders with or without the ball. He has been unlucky with injuries but should have been persisted with, rather than Nowell and Malins ( who will be a full time FB when Goode retires).

Malins is going to Bristol next season so will presumably replace Piutau. Goode can carry on til he is 412.

Agree about Big Joe. He may have some defensive issues but in attack he's a proper weapon.

Haven't Sarries signed Parton as a replacement for Malins?

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Post by mountain man Tue 21 Feb 2023, 3:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bonus point win incoming?

Could be but game will go ahead anyway so I'll take a BP win on Saturday.

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Post by Geordie Tue 21 Feb 2023, 3:25 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:And I don't understand how you think a winger standing out on the wing all game waiting for things to come to him is not worthy of criticism.

Never mind missing 50% of your tackles...and averaging 4m a carry in a game against a sub-standard Italy.

Anyway....he's not playing, so he'll have plenty of time to get those nails painted this weekend.

Borthwick should bring back Cokanasiga who comes round into the midfield behind the centres and intimidates opposition defenders with or without the ball. He has been unlucky with injuries but should have been persisted with, rather than Nowell and Malins ( who will be a full time FB when Goode retires).

Malins is going to Bristol next season so will presumably replace Piutau. Goode can carry on til he is 412.

Agree about Big Joe. He may have some defensive issues but in attack he's a proper weapon.

Haven't Sarries signed Parton as a replacement for Malins?

Have they? Thats actually a good signing for them. Good player who they can still develop a bit yet wont be away for internationals

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 21 Feb 2023, 6:31 pm


Trimmed down squad Ben replaces Tom Curry. Earls dropped & fortunately Ben Youngs

Forwards: Chessum, Cole, B Curry, Dombrandt, Genge, George, Isiekwe, Itoje, Lawes, Ludlam, Sinckler, M Vunipola, Walker, Willis.

Backs: Arundell, Farrell, Lawrence, Malins, Marchant, Mitchell, Murley, Slade, Smith, Steward, Van Poortvliet, Watson.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 21 Feb 2023, 7:00 pm

Interesting that B Curry is in and Tom out, I guess fitness wasn't quite there.

Good squad, keen to see who might play.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 21 Feb 2023, 7:15 pm

yappysnap wrote:Interesting that B Curry is in and Tom out, I guess fitness wasn't quite there.

Good squad, keen to see who might play.

I presume Stuart isn’t quite there either; I would hope if fit he’d replace Cole.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 21 Feb 2023, 7:20 pm

Tom has picked up a leg injury.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 21 Feb 2023, 7:25 pm

Poorfour wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Interesting that B Curry is in and Tom out, I guess fitness wasn't quite there.

Good squad, keen to see who might play.

I presume Stuart isn’t quite there either; I would hope if fit he’d replace Cole.

Oh yea, hadn't noticed that. Although honestly I do love seeing Cole run out still, feels like a big hit of nostalgia which i'm a fan of!

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Post by Geordie Tue 21 Feb 2023, 7:59 pm

Tom Curry has an injury...apparently OHC has an injury also which is why he wasn't selected

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 21 Feb 2023, 10:20 pm

yappysnap wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Interesting that B Curry is in and Tom out, I guess fitness wasn't quite there.

Good squad, keen to see who might play.

I presume Stuart isn’t quite there either; I would hope if fit he’d replace Cole.

Oh yea, hadn't noticed that. Although honestly I do love seeing Cole run out still, feels like a big hit of nostalgia which i'm a fan of!

I like that Cole can't contain his back hair in an England jersey anymore, and that it sticks out of his collar. He's a terrific servant to English rugby and I'm delighted that Final debacle wasn't the last chapter in his career. If I were Kyle Sinckler or Will Stuart, I'd be doing my utmost to learn from his experience.

Probyn...Vickery....Cole.... He's in good company with the finest England tightheads of my lifetime.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 21 Feb 2023, 10:24 pm

Interesting thing there being Burry leapfrogging Earl to replace Turry.

Good to see all of Watson, Arundell and Murley retained. I'd say they're the best 3 wingers that have been in the wider squads thus far.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 21 Feb 2023, 10:25 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Interesting that B Curry is in and Tom out, I guess fitness wasn't quite there.

Good squad, keen to see who might play.

I presume Stuart isn’t quite there either; I would hope if fit he’d replace Cole.

Oh yea, hadn't noticed that. Although honestly I do love seeing Cole run out still, feels like a big hit of nostalgia which i'm a fan of!

I like that Cole can't contain his back hair in an England jersey anymore, and that it sticks out of his collar. He's a terrific servant to English rugby and I'm delighted that Final debacle wasn't the last chapter in his career. If I were Kyle Sinckler or Will Stuart, I'd be doing my utmost to learn from his experience.

Probyn...Vickery....Cole.... He's in good company with the finest England tightheads of my lifetime.

Dan's on 97 caps, would be nice for him to get his century before retirement but he really is keeping the shirt warm until Stuart is match fit.

I do enjoy his press conferences as well, when asked why he thought he'd been brought back he answered completely dead pan "my goalkicking".

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 21 Feb 2023, 10:58 pm

I'd call him on that, and make him kick for goal against Wales (you won't need the points).

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 21 Feb 2023, 11:45 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Trimmed down squad Ben replaces Tom Curry. Earls dropped & fortunately Ben Youngs

Forwards: Chessum, Cole, B Curry, Dombrandt, Genge, George, Isiekwe, Itoje, Lawes, Ludlam, Sinckler, M Vunipola, Walker, Willis.

Backs: Arundell, Farrell, Lawrence, Malins, Marchant, Mitchell, Murley, Slade, Smith, Steward, Van Poortvliet, Watson.
Well still a lot of question marks.  
I think OHC whether injured or not, should not be in the squad, at least this year.  
Surprised Malins is still in the squad - I thought Borthwick likes people who can play defense?
What did Earls do to be dropped?  To me he is a step up from Ben Curry.
And Ben Curry?  Why?
For me, the same question for Murley
Even Arundell I'm not sure this is his time - but is an improvement on Malins!

I guess the back row will be Ludlum, Willis and Dombrandt?  Or is it Willis, Ludlum, and Dombrandt?

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 21 Feb 2023, 11:53 pm

Agree on Ben Earl. If Tom Curry is injured and Underhill not fit, then Earl should play 7 with Willis (or Ludlam) at 6. I don't get the Ben Curry obsession. To borrow from cricket (e.g. Waugh bros), he isn't the best 7 in his family.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 22 Feb 2023, 4:36 am

Borthwick obviously thinks B Curry can offer something Earl can't (but T Curry can)......to not make the 36 man squad and then to make the 26 man squad is very odd.

I would say one player that needs a big game is Dombrandt, who hasn't looked anything like the Quins player so far for England. With various big names coming back (Lawes, Curry etc) and the emergence of Ludlam and Willis.....I could see him being the next casualty.

With Ludlum offering a good carrying option off the base and much more around the park.....we could get some real quality on the flanks in Lawes/T Curry/Underhill/Willis.

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Post by mountain man Wed 22 Feb 2023, 8:28 am


I would say one player that needs a big game is Dombrandt, who hasn't looked anything like the Quins player so far for England.

Think you could say that about Marcus Smith x 10 given the number of caps he's had compared to Dombrandt. Neither have produced anything like Quins form for England, we've seen glimpses of it from Smith but that's all.
If not Dombrandt at 8 then who though is question. Curry at 8 again? That didn't work and not his best position. Ludlam?
Simmonds had a couple decent halfs but not been the 8 for England style which is what Borthwick is going for, set piece, maul etc.
Some saying Mercer but he's more a Simmonds type than a Billy type 8.
Not a massive amount of options at present.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 22 Feb 2023, 8:33 am

Plenty of options....just none that are amazing. I wouldn't be anti Ludlum really....he has experience playing there and is a great all-rounder.

Smith is perhaps 1 game ahead of Dombrandt seeing as he has already been benched....?

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Post by mountain man Wed 22 Feb 2023, 8:38 am

That's what I mean, not many options that spring to mind as good. I'm not anti Ludlam, he's been excellent so far but not sure 8 is best position.
The big thing of course with Smith and Dombrandt is they play a very different game with Quins with very different players.
I've long been a fan of both but Smith been hampered by having Farrell at 12 with England I think. Dombrandt making errors he normally doesn't, dropping pases etc. I would definitely keep him at 8 for now. Smith bench (as Farrell be starting) but get him on at 10 and take Farrell off so we can see how it goes with say Smith Lawrence Slade for example.

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Post by Geordie Wed 22 Feb 2023, 8:56 am

mountain man wrote:

I would say one player that needs a big game is Dombrandt, who hasn't looked anything like the Quins player so far for England.

Think you could say that about Marcus Smith x 10 given the number of caps he's had compared to Dombrandt. Neither have produced anything like Quins form for England, we've seen glimpses of it from Smith but that's all.
If not Dombrandt at 8 then who though is question. Curry at 8 again? That didn't work and not his best position. Ludlam?
Simmonds had a couple decent halfs but not been the 8 for England style which is what Borthwick is going for, set piece, maul etc.
Some saying Mercer but he's more a Simmonds type than a Billy type 8.
Not a massive amount of options at present.

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Post by Geordie Wed 22 Feb 2023, 8:57 am

Is Tom Willis not an option?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 22 Feb 2023, 9:53 am

Geordie wrote:Is Tom Willis not an option?

I wouldn't say he was currently, maybe post WC perhaps.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Feb 2023, 10:48 am

If we're talking future you have to throw Barbeary into the mix.

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 22 Feb 2023, 10:51 am

Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:

I would say one player that needs a big game is Dombrandt, who hasn't looked anything like the Quins player so far for England.

Think you could say that about Marcus Smith x 10 given the number of caps he's had compared to Dombrandt. Neither have produced anything like Quins form for England, we've seen glimpses of it from Smith but that's all.
If not Dombrandt at 8 then who though is question. Curry at 8 again? That didn't work and not his best position. Ludlam?
Simmonds had a couple decent halfs but not been the 8 for England style which is what Borthwick is going for, set piece, maul etc.
Some saying Mercer but he's more a Simmonds type than a Billy type 8.
Not a massive amount of options at present.

Carl Fearns the juggernaught! Very Happy

We don't seem to produce many of the really big powerfull players anymore, they tend to be more athletic and rangy. Seems the way the game is going in general to be honest.

If you want a like for like with Billy, it would probably be the Barbearian. I agree with Sarge though, we're probably fairly set now with the options for this World Cup cyle. In the next one we've got a list of potential no.8s that could come (back) into contention.

Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)
Guy Mercer (Gloucester)
Tom Willis (Saracens)
Alfie Barbeary (Bath)

Jack Clement (Gloucester)
Chandler Cunningham-South (London Irish)
Greg Fislau (Exeter)
Freddie Lockwood (Newcastle)

I've probably forgotten some (and some other youngsters may break through), but surely we can get an international level no.8 out of that lot over the next three or four years?
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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 22 Feb 2023, 11:35 am

Any one know id Sam Underhill is injured or just not been selected by Steve Borthwick?

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Post by Rinsure Wed 22 Feb 2023, 11:52 am

majesticimperialman wrote:Any one know id Sam Underhill is injured  or  just not  been selected by Steve Borthwick?

Hi all - been a while, but I'm back. Sure you'll all be thrilled.

Was at The Rec on Saturday and Underhill played. Played pretty well, too, in a losing effort.

Joe C was also in good form.

CCS looks the business for Irish, too. Watched him a few times now, and in the U20 internationals. Big future for that lad.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 22 Feb 2023, 1:02 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Geordie wrote:Is Tom Willis not an option?

I wouldn't say he was currently, maybe post WC perhaps.

He's not been around the squads previously and is now playing in France so wouldn't have been available for the training weeks. Jack apparently missed out on selection Vs Scotland because he hadn't had enough time in camp.

Mercer isn't available until the summer though same issue as Willis.

Barbeary could be great if he stays got for more than five mins at a time.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Wed 22 Feb 2023, 1:38 pm

Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:

I would say one player that needs a big game is Dombrandt, who hasn't looked anything like the Quins player so far for England.

Think you could say that about Marcus Smith x 10 given the number of caps he's had compared to Dombrandt. Neither have produced anything like Quins form for England, we've seen glimpses of it from Smith but that's all.
If not Dombrandt at 8 then who though is question. Curry at 8 again? That didn't work and not his best position. Ludlam?
Simmonds had a couple decent halfs but not been the 8 for England style which is what Borthwick is going for, set piece, maul etc.
Some saying Mercer but he's more a Simmonds type than a Billy type 8.
Not a massive amount of options at present.

Carl Fearns the juggernaught! Very Happy

A travesty Fearns didn't get an England cap, he was a fearsome player at Bath but got caught up in the Burgess debacle, probably for the ko punch on Henson and generally considered, by the powers at the time, to be not quick enough at test level, probably like Ewers...

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Post by Geordie Wed 22 Feb 2023, 3:18 pm

Just watched a brief interview with Ollie And Lewis Chessum. Jeez Lewis is Massive...he must be about 6'10 but his frame..hes already got some size on him.

Tigers fans is he similar in style to Ollie?

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Post by mountain man Wed 22 Feb 2023, 3:34 pm

Yes he is. I've been watching U20s and he's been one of the stand out players as well as captain. Obviously line out target but work rate is outstanding.

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 22 Feb 2023, 5:54 pm

He still looks a little like a lanky kid to me (which is hardly surprising given that he is 19). He'll be bloody huge when he fills out. It is great to think that by the time he is Ollie's age he could follow his brother into the English set up, who at that point will be 24/ 25 and could/should be heading towards 30 caps.

Looks like Leicester are going to have an embarrassment of riches in the row with Chessum x2, Martin, Henderson. The Manz brothers have been around the England U20s set up too I think.
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Post by mountain man Wed 22 Feb 2023, 6:10 pm

As expected Wales England match going ahead on Saturday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64718572

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Post by yappysnap Wed 22 Feb 2023, 7:36 pm

Is someone going to make a match thread now the game's going ahead?

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Post by king_carlos Wed 22 Feb 2023, 8:13 pm


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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 22 Feb 2023, 8:54 pm

Cumbrian wrote:He still looks a little like a lanky kid to me (which is hardly surprising given that he is 19).  He'll be bloody huge when he fills out.  It is great to think that by the time he is Ollie's age he could follow his brother into the English set up, who at that point will be 24/ 25 and could/should be heading towards 30 caps.

Looks like Leicester are going to have an embarrassment of riches in the row with Chessum x2, Martin, Henderson.  The Manz brothers have been around the England U20s set up too I think.

He's 6ft9 he's always going to look lanky. He's filled out an awful lot between last year and this year. He's heading towards 19 stone already so he ain't going to get that much bigger or he'll never get round the pitch.

He's a proper workhorse lineout lock. Not quite like Ollie who's a bit more of a mobile carrier. Ollie's pretty tough and Lewis likes getting stuck in even more.

Tigers have got a good stable locks with Rob Carmichael also in the under 20s and 6ft10.

Tom Manz missed the under 20s because of injuries. He's a handy squad man but don't think he'll get to be more than that but you never know. His younger brother and Fin Carnduff are both playing under 20 rugby at 18 as blindside flankers but could well be hybrids or locks in the future.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 22 Feb 2023, 11:25 pm

Turry out of the Six Nations. Hamstring injury on the other leg sustained in training on Monday apparently. Brutal luck having just rehabbed the other hammy.

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 23 Feb 2023, 9:08 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:He still looks a little like a lanky kid to me (which is hardly surprising given that he is 19).  He'll be bloody huge when he fills out.  It is great to think that by the time he is Ollie's age he could follow his brother into the English set up, who at that point will be 24/ 25 and could/should be heading towards 30 caps.

Looks like Leicester are going to have an embarrassment of riches in the row with Chessum x2, Martin, Henderson.  The Manz brothers have been around the England U20s set up too I think.

He's 6ft9 he's always going to look lanky. He's filled out an awful lot between last year and this year. He's heading towards 19 stone already so he ain't going to get that much bigger or he'll never get round the pitch.

He's a proper workhorse lineout lock. Not quite like Ollie who's a bit more of a mobile carrier. Ollie's pretty tough and Lewis likes getting stuck in even more.

Tigers have got a good stable locks with Rob Carmichael also in the under 20s and 6ft10.

Tom Manz missed the under 20s because of injuries. He's a handy squad man but don't think he'll get to be more than that but you never know. His younger brother and Fin Carnduff are both playing under 20 rugby at 18 as blindside flankers but could well be hybrids or locks in the future.

I don't know players like Etzebeth, Richie Gray and RG Snyman are all roughly the same height, but I wouldn't describe them as lanky. Like I said, he's still a kid, he'll naturally fill out a bit more. Having worked in secondary/ higher education for most of my professional life, most people don't tend to reach their adult maturity/ body shape at 19. Athletes in particular become more solid (for want of a better word) as they mature into their twenties. Anyway, I’m not suggesting he’ll put on another three or four stone, I think he’ll retain his ability to get around the pitch.

Aye, a lot to be said for good club men. If Tom Manz was to become the next Callum Green or Harry Wells, I think you’d be justified to be more than satisfied with that. I wasn’t sure if he’d sneaked into an U20s squad.

Anyway, exciting time to be a Tigers fan, if feels like you’ve got something bubbling up. It will be interesting to see where you are in three or four years time.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 23 Feb 2023, 1:29 pm

I think Tom Manz snuck into one of those oddly secretive U20s vs Club XV games that happened during COVID from memory. The ones that info and teamsheets for leaked out after the games - Falcons the opposition a couple of times I think. There were a lot of players featured in those though. Presumably as they we predominantly a means to get young players game time after so much rugby halted. Friendlies for the coaches to have a look and players to get as runout.

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Post by majesticimperialman Thu 23 Feb 2023, 1:35 pm

Have neem looking at the squad for saturdays game I am please to see Farrell at 10 and Smith on the bench.
Would like to see Farrell come off and smith get a good 30 pr so , minutes to show hat he can do .

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