The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

+2
mountain man
No 7&1/2
6 posters

Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Apr 2023, 10:42 am

Apparently Joel Jutge has confirmed that World Rugby are considering using Super Rugby's yellow card (an orange card) review system for the WC. As far as I was aware the pilot had yet to come to an end and be reviewed itself to see the potential benefits and negatives so seems crazy that they're already giving it a nudge for what many would consider the premier rugby comp we have. Have to admit that I've not followed any controversies etc that they may have had, and clearly it may not follow the same rules exactly but just seems an unnecessary risk.

The system got a few accolades in relation to articles on the Steward debacle but in itself would have still seen him incorrectly red carded. I get that this will speed up the game for those in the stadium but does seem to leave an awful lot of power in the hands of 1 person rather than the team as we have at the moment; they don't get everything right but surely it gives you a better chance at the correct decision?

The last thing I don't understand at the moment either is what happens when the game restarts but the TMO is then looking at replays of the 'orange card' incident? Presumably the job of reviewing the tv footage live is then dropped completely and thus while this is going on there is no tmo?

WR would be far better to bring in a simple rule in time for the WC for me which would be the banning of live/immediate replays for anything not requested by the ref. No home directors replaying decisions that would go their way; allow them to replay on a bigger delay and instruct refs that nothing could be decided from these at that point and that anything major would be dealt with by citing panels.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 31349
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by mountain man Tue 11 Apr 2023, 10:53 am

Well if it's a situation where previously the ref would have given a straight red then this will chance for yellow, reviewed and if deemed a red then it's 20minute red with another player back on afterwards so teams back to 15 a side.
So in Steward situation it would have definitley helped as hopefully sense seen and deemed only a yellow(should be no card but still) but even if thought to be a red then England in this case would get a player back on after 20 minutes.

I think given the uncertainty around cards and interpretation of referees and TMOs(yes Peyper and Jonker looking at you) then this should help.

I think definitely worth trying. Also recommendation is TMO only interupts for serious foul play. There were instances where TMO called line out wrongly called for one team. This happened against England who should have had line out but TMO intervened and incorrectly gave it to opposition who subsequently scored from it!

As for TMO reviewing an incident when play resumes, it's been confirmed there will be a second pair of eyes doing this, so assume 2x TMO.

mountain man

Posts : 2927
Join date : 2021-03-09

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Apr 2023, 11:06 am

God I'd forgotten that this may be bundled into the ridiculous 20 mins thing too.

Ta for the second tmo info, so a deputy not quite at the level of Jonker. Sounds great.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 31349
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by mountain man Tue 11 Apr 2023, 11:09 am

I just did a quick search and used this article :

https://rugbyreferee.net/2023/02/14/new-tmo-red-card-upgrade-for-2023-season/

mountain man

Posts : 2927
Join date : 2021-03-09

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by Poorfour Tue 11 Apr 2023, 1:14 pm

It's likely to be a transient thing however it's done, so if they're going to do it they have to do it now.

WR has also said that it's lowering the tackle height to waist level (and requiring the ball carrier to keep their shoulders above their hips going into the tackle) at every level below elite rugby from next season, with an intent to do so in the elite game post RWC.

The experience from France (where something similar has been in force in community rugby for a while) has apparently been a spike in penalties while players adapt but a longer term drop in cards, which makes sense. The idea of the change is to ensure that the tackler and ball carrier have a clear separation in head height so that the chance of them coming into contact is minimised; by making the tackle waist high, it avoids players tackling around the arms and sliding up into head-to-shoulder or head-to-head contact.

I'd expect the 24/25 season to be a bit chaotic as coaches and players adapt but to have a material reduction in cards and head contact by RWC 27.
Poorfour
Poorfour

Posts : 6139
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by Rugby Fan Tue 11 Apr 2023, 1:32 pm

mountain man wrote:...So in Steward situation it would have definitely helped as hopefully sense seen and deemed only a yellow...
All the evidence suggests a TMO would have upheld Steward's red. While the disciplinary panel overturned it, they saw the whole post-match reaction, which the TMO on the day doesn't see.

Rugby Fan
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 7796
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by mountain man Tue 11 Apr 2023, 1:39 pm

Yes but in that case if a yellow was initially issued, even if deemed red subsequently by TMO then after 20 minutes another player be allowed back on hence England be back to 15. If red issued immediately by ref then it stays red.

All hypothetical of course as we're talking about a past incident but that's how it should work. Of course in Steward incident the Peyper/Jonker tag team might well have said straight red as was case.

mountain man

Posts : 2927
Join date : 2021-03-09

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by neilthom7 Tue 11 Apr 2023, 7:06 pm

I have concerns over the whole 20 minute red card thing, yes for incidents where it's close it might make it more paletable, but what about a blatant obvious killer foul that takes a player out of the game because they know it's only 20 minutes and they are back to 15, could change the match completely and lead to some serious targeted injuries on certain players.

I also think that this could cause a real issue for world rugby in the concussion lawsuits which over the next 10 years is going to come knocking at their door. Those lawyers will be able to use this as world rugby knowingly ignoring conussion issues simply for the look of the game. It won't look good on them in court.

neilthom7

Posts : 3294
Join date : 2011-10-26
Age : 35
Location : Belfast

http://www.twitter.com/thomthom1988

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by mountain man Tue 11 Apr 2023, 7:23 pm

Because if a player commits a blatant obvious nasty foul etc then ref can issue straight red which won't be changed. It's only designed for incidents that are possible red but referee isn't certain at time and rather than wait for multiple replays etc then yellow shown and TMO reviews and if bad then it's red.

mountain man

Posts : 2927
Join date : 2021-03-09

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by neilthom7 Tue 11 Apr 2023, 7:37 pm

That seems fairer, didn't realise that had changed so they weren't all 20 mins. Doesn't say there what they think constitutes serious foul play though, is there a line for that or is it referees discretion?

neilthom7

Posts : 3294
Join date : 2011-10-26
Age : 35
Location : Belfast

http://www.twitter.com/thomthom1988

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by mountain man Tue 11 Apr 2023, 7:40 pm

Ref can and will make decisions as now so if serious foul play, obvious head contact which is dangerous etc then can issue straight red. This is for the 50:50 red/yellow calls.

mountain man

Posts : 2927
Join date : 2021-03-09

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by Unclear Tue 11 Apr 2023, 8:29 pm

I think this wrong, and potentially dangerously so. The refs are pressurised to get on with the game, so pretty much everything will be a yellow to be reviewed by the TMO. Hopefully I'm wrong but it sounds like that the most the TMO can do is issue a 20 minute red bringing the team back up to 15. At a time when the games response to head injuries is under a spotlight it seems wrong to be reducing the consequences of head contact. Perhaps if it was wrapped up with stronger post game actions on the individual (and potentially teams if there are multiple instances) it might help.

What would also help is some stats on whether behaviours are changing in terms cards issued over the last few years. Could be difficult as the thresholds seem to change all the time and the there is always the much noted inconsistencies in officiating.

Unclear

Posts : 403
Join date : 2012-09-19
Location : The sub-tropical South (of England)

Back to top Go down

Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition Empty Re: Super Rugby trial - World Cup Edition

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum