England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

First topic message reminder :

Continued.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thinking about the beyond. The RFU gave an initial task to Jones that he develop the next coach, which he did with Borthwick, anyone seen a similar ask in this regard. I.e. we already looking to Sinfield or Wigglesworth as the next step?

Borthwick will do the next three world cups, plenty of time

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thinking about the beyond. The RFU gave an initial task to Jones that he develop the next coach, which he did with Borthwick, anyone seen a similar ask in this regard. I.e. we already looking to Sinfield or Wigglesworth as the next step?

Borthwick will do the next three world cups, plenty of time

Sam youve just destroyed 7.5's enjoyment of English rugby for years to come.

Ollie Chessum pictured taking part in scrum training. Apparently he and Martin were moving between lock and 6. Might just be making up numbers but could suggest Borthwick fancies a bigger lump at 6.

Glad to see A) Thats hes back...hes a real talent, and B) Two of our real bright young hopes at lock are both heavily involved.

In a WC you need versatility...they may be locks now...but they do have experience at 6...so doesnt hurt to keep them both knowledgable of the 6 role.

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thinking about the beyond. The RFU gave an initial task to Jones that he develop the next coach, which he did with Borthwick, anyone seen a similar ask in this regard. I.e. we already looking to Sinfield or Wigglesworth as the next step?

Borthwick will do the next three world cups, plenty of time

Sam youve just destroyed 7.5's enjoyment of English rugby for years to come.

Not enjoyed it since 2020. Like I said though, he's going to crash and burn pretty quick I reckon. He's our Pivac, without the initial success.

If he's going with Lawes at 6 it makes sense to have a back up of the same type. At least he's not playing Itoje there.

Maybe one of them will line up v Wales at 6....after all he knows what Lawes can do.

There are probably more people vying for those back row spots than any other so you would hope that anyone with a little question mark would get a good chunk of time. We've talked before though on a core of your first team makes it easier to properly judge. May be impossible to do that given only 1 game before squad along with the fact Wales may well name a 2nd string.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thinking about the beyond. The RFU gave an initial task to Jones that he develop the next coach, which he did with Borthwick, anyone seen a similar ask in this regard. I.e. we already looking to Sinfield or Wigglesworth as the next step?

It is interesting to see that a certain other former ex league defensive coach and all round inspirational character finally came good coaching Ireland.

Always had a good rep until that WC didn't he. TBF most of that group were considered good coaches but thinking back was it felt that Farrell was a bit too vocal and forceful. Easy to think that it was the right people in the wrong roles. Wish we hadn't moved them on after our exit tbh. Bar Catt. Still dont rate him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thinking about the beyond. The RFU gave an initial task to Jones that he develop the next coach, which he did with Borthwick, anyone seen a similar ask in this regard. I.e. we already looking to Sinfield or Wigglesworth as the next step?

Borthwick will do the next three world cups, plenty of time

Sam youve just destroyed 7.5's enjoyment of English rugby for years to come.

Not enjoyed it since 2020. Like I said though, he's going to crash and burn pretty quick I reckon. He's our Pivac, without the initial success.

Given you've already announced that he'll be the wrong choice and a failure even if England win the RWC he's got a pretty tough bar for success in fairness. Let's hope for Borthwick's sake that he can beat the much vaunted Mars and Jupiter XVs of 18 limbed plasma giants in the 2031 Six Planets to win 7.5s tightly guarded praise.

I could change my mind king. As I've done in the past. If Borthwick suddenly changes tack and produces good rugby, I'll be more than happy. As it is the people who are giving him time seem more focused on what he could change come the 6Ns.

I don't see a win or a loss as the be all and end all. If for instance the England Ireland game in the 6Ns had resulted in an Ireland red card and an England win what would really have changed in terms of how England had been set up etc. Not much. Think in terms of that Welsh 6Ns victory, pretty much playing 14 men each time. Job done, Pivac is a great coach. But ignores some context.

England have a very good chance to win the WC. Much better than we probably deserve. It could/should result in a semi final, but a bit of luck and...
However if we and Scotland were to swap places I'd be fully expecting to go out in the groups and Scotland reaching the semis at least.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thinking about the beyond. The RFU gave an initial task to Jones that he develop the next coach, which he did with Borthwick, anyone seen a similar ask in this regard. I.e. we already looking to Sinfield or Wigglesworth as the next step?

It is interesting to see that a certain other former ex league defensive coach and all round inspirational character finally came good coaching Ireland.

As 7.5 alludes to it was generally felt that Faz snr was (and is) a brilliant defence coach but at the time there was suggestions that he was having unsuccessful input into backs play off set-piece and in early phase play. Given Farrell talks so much about "defence being the start of attack" I'd guess he was trying to build that in a more planned way.
The interesting thing is that despite his attempts here being unsuccessful with Lancaster's England it is unavoidable that some of Ireland's set-piece attacking moves have been exceptional. Just really intelligent set moves, worked over multiple phases to break down a certain defensive pattern.

It's interesting how early attempts at certain tactics can be unsuccessful but are often adopted by teams who do better. England's failed 'fluid' attacking structure with the forwards towards the end of EJs tenure was largely rubbish. NZ are now adapting a form of it with Beauden and Mo'unga at 10 and 15, Jordie at 12 and Reiko at 13. There's several players there who have played multiple positions across the back line but are now looking lethal in a similarly loose attacking structure that relies on several playmakers and skilful forwards making on the hoof decisions.

When you add Ardie at 8 you're getting close to a full house of what many didn't like from Jones. 'Out of position' players all over the park to just get their best rugby players on the pitch. Loose structure. Kicking early when it isn't on. God, it's resulted in some breath taking play recently from that group of players though.

Dombrandt v Ardie says it all KC....

"Can we have Ardie Savea mummy?"
"We've got Ardie Savea at home."
Ardie Savea at home:

Is that Kieran Reid?

Well the Wales team is out. Seen the article on the beeb too so my thoughts on how England would line up is wrong by the sounds of it. Looks like England will be trying to use the players they expect to in the team for the WC proper? Should be a comfortable win incoming after all.

'England will not use Saturday's World Cup warm-up game with Wales in Cardiff as a "selection shootout", says assistant coach Richard Wigglesworth.

Head coach Steve Borthwick will confirm his 33-man squad for the tournament in France on Monday morning, three weeks before the World Rugby deadline.

Wigglesworth says it is important to give players as much "clarity" as possible over where they stand.

"We definitely don't want to see it as a selection shoot-out," he said.

Speaking to BBC Sport he added: "If we go into a game [with that attitude] then we are not giving the players the best chance of playing well.

"We all know players will be feeling selection is coming up, and that is huge for them, and it should be huge for them because you get to play for England at a World Cup.

"But we want to give them the best chance to play well at the weekend.

"We have a pretty good idea of what we want [as the final squad], and those conversations have been ongoing for a long time."

England play four matches this month, with a return fixture against Wales at Twickenham before a showdown with Ireland in Dublin and finally Fiji back at Twickenham on 26 August.

But Wigglesworth says the focus through August will be on preparation and building cohesion.

"We have carried quite a small squad all the way through because we didn't want everything to be around selection," Wigglesworth explained.

"We want as much cohesion and clarity in what we are doing as possible.

"I think those [final squad] decisions are always going to be hard. But it's best [to name it] now because we give ourselves the best chance to be the best prepared in France.

"We want everything to be around how well we can prepare. It could never come down to just one Test match and that's the only reason why someone would get selected or not selected.

"We are definitely not going 'if this guy plays well he goes'; it is way bigger than that and we want it to be more informed than that."

Wigglesworth went to two World Cups as a player, in 2011 and 2015, and says he has learned lessons from those experiences.

"I have been in camps and some parts of it have always been about: 'where do I sit? Where do I stand?'" he added.

"Those are natural feelings, but they aren't useful feelings for how well you can prepare a squad.

"I think all players have always wanted clarity, I wanted that as a player. Steve has done an incredible job of constantly meeting the players to make sure they feel like they have been treated really fairly."

Wigglesworth has also confirmed Ollie Chessum, Ollie Lawrence and Billy Vunipola are all "back in training" after rehabbing from injury.

For Chessum it completes a quick return after he suffered a serious ankle fracture in training during the Six Nations in March.

Meanwhile, prop Will Stuart says Saturday is a chance to bring together eight weeks of pre-season graft.

"It's the first chance for us to show people what we have been working on, and how hard we have been working," Stuart told BBC Sport.

"It's a chance to put a marker down and that is a big thing for this group, to show people we are at the races."'

It sounds a common sense approach to camp if thats the case...a refreshing change...

New look team to face England;

Wales: 15. Leigh Halfpenny, 14. Louis Rees-Zammit, 13. George North, 12. Max Llewellyn, 11. Rio Dyer, 10. Sam Costelow, 9. Gareth Davies, 1. Corey Domachowski, 2. Ryan Elias, 3. Keiron Assiratti, 4. Dafydd Jenkins, 5. Will Rowlands, 6. Christ Tshiunza, 7. Jac Morgan (capt), 8. Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: 16. Elliot Dee, 17. Nicky Smith, 18. Henry Thomas, 19. Ben Carter, 20. Taine Plumtree, 21. Tomos Williams, 22. Dan Biggar, 23. Mason Grady.

I wrote down a prediction a couple of weeks ago what I thought the first warm up team would be.

Be interesting to see how far out I was (obviously VRR is no longer in contention)

Rapava-Ruskin
Dan
Stuart
Itoje
Ribbans
Pearson
Earl
T Willis
Care
Farrell
Murley
Tuilagi
Marchant
Cokanasiga
Steward

Reps: Blamire, Genge, Sinckler, Martin, J Willis, JVP, Ford, Daly.

I bet I've probably got one right!

Does sound like it's the opposite approach bounce, more stalwarts and a couple of maybes.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Does sound like it's the opposite approach bounce, more stalwarts and a couple of maybes.

Yup very true. Still, I think that team could have worked nicely.

I wonder if there is a sweepstake on how long Halfpenny lasts

The Torygraph reporting that Care and Smith will start at 9 and 10 with Genge captaining in Farrell's absence. According to the article they are looking to take all 3 fly-halves in the 33-man squad.

king_carlos wrote:The Torygraph reporting that Care and Smith will start at 9 and 10 with Genge captaining in Farrell's absence. According to the article they are looking to take all 3 fly-halves in the 33-man squad.

Interesting if that is the first combination to be tried, and could be effective if they can bring their club understanding to the game. But I thought they’d been clear for some time that they planned to take 3 scrum halves and 3 fly halves - I remember a comment to that effect from Borthwick when the squad was cut to 39 (plus rehabbers)

I could have missed SB saying that easily enough, Poorfour. I've been mainly following cricket obsessively over the Ashes so I've only been clocking into the rugby news intermittently. So many reports during the training camps feel a lot like filler. Then when the actual 33-man squads start getting announced and better warm-ups played we start to see the more interesting developments.

With Dombrandt at 8 just to keep it the full triangle or creation...

Given options in squad then Care and Smith seems OK to me. As for Dombrandt I think highly likely he'll be at 8. Then again as only T Willis as alternative so hardly pushing boundary there.
I want to see who's at 12 and 13.

mountain man wrote:Given options in squad then Care and Smith seems OK to me. As for Dombrandt I think highly likely he'll be at 8. Then again as only T Willis as alternative so hardly pushing boundary there.
I want to see who's at 12 and 13.

Theres Billy V aswell...

I mean for this match on Saturday. Unless Billy is fit and available?

Ah right...yeah.

Im actually quite interested to see Tom Willis get a run out...see what he can do...

Depending on whether the rumours are correct it looks to be Tuilagi and Lawrence in the centres. I've always been a big fan of a second play maker but with Care and Smith it's more likely to have a bit of balance there. Depends how much they're allowed to mix things up I guess.

I wonder if there is a sweepstake on how long Halfpenny Tuilagi lasts

(I do hope he has a last RWC in him)

Geordie wrote:With Dombrandt at 8 just to keep it the full triangle or creation...

Got to do something to make Care look fit.

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:With Dombrandt at 8 just to keep it the full triangle or creation...

Got to do something to make Care look fit.

Play him next to Ben Youngs?

That's very tongue in cheek I should add. I'm a Care sceptic in some ways as I don't really think his game has improved with age. Rather I think he's prevented weaknesses becoming more significant and strengths less significant. Which is generally what happens as players age. That's really impressive in itself. But I do think those holes in Cares game with kicking and no defensive output are still an issue. His work in the opposition 22 also remains really good though. I don't mind him being in the squad.

As said previously I'd have had Quirke in the early training squads with an eye to JvP, Quirke and Mitchell being the 9s. I'll get that in before we get into a Tigers bias and Ben Youngs spiral.

Re number 8. I believe Billy and Lawrence came back into contact training on the same day. So Billy must be close.

I've had some fun with my Dombrandt fitness analogies but I don't think he's without ability. I'm just yet to see a sign his strengths are having an impact at international level. His running lines and hands when attacking the fringes off 9 at Prem level are brilliant. Do those gaps regularly exist in top level internationals though? He doesn't make yards through contact. Whilst his fitness was clearly an issue for my nonsense. Running like he's hungover and wearing a wet suit is harsh. But it was glaring at times that he wasn't in the same stratosphere as his counterparts in the Six Nations. Hopefully he can look a different player after a RWC camp. We've seen players peak for RWCs before after these extended training blocks. I just struggle to see it though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:With Dombrandt at 8 just to keep it the full triangle or creation...

Got to do something to make Care look fit.

Play him next to Ben Youngs?

I like it. Guarantee one of them gets to a ruck quickly. A bit like when folk talked about Foden's ability to step in at 9 as a useful reason to pick him on the wing. "Most turnovers happen out wide so we are more likely to have a scrum-half there to play quickly". Meanwhile we had Hape and a broken Tindall in the centres and Mark Cueto moving about as fast as Duncan Bell chained to a sofa.

king_carlos wrote:That's very tongue in cheek I should add. I'm a Care sceptic in some ways as I don't really think his game has improved with age. Rather I think he's prevented weaknesses becoming more significant and strengths less significant. Which is generally what happens as players age. That's really impressive in itself. But I do think those holes in Cares game with kicking and no defensive output are still an issue. His work in the opposition 22 also remains really good though. I don't mind him being in the squad.

As said previously I'd have had Quirke in the early training squads with an eye to JvP, Quirke and Mitchell being the 9s. I'll get that in before we get into a Tigers bias and Ben Youngs spiral.

Re number 8. I believe Billy and Lawrence came back into contact training on the same day. So Billy must be close.

I've had some fun with my Dombrandt fitness analogies but I don't think he's without ability. I'm just yet to see a sign his strengths are having an impact at international level. His running lines and hands when attacking the fringes off 9 at Prem level are brilliant. Do those gaps regularly exist in top level internationals though? He doesn't make yards through contact. Whilst his fitness was clearly an issue for my nonsense. Running like he's hungover and wearing a wet suit is harsh. But it was glaring at times that he wasn't in the same stratosphere as his counterparts in the Six Nations. Hopefully he can look a different player after a RWC camp. We've seen players peak for RWCs before after these extended training blocks. I just struggle to see it though.

I wouldn't have either in this WC squad, and I too would have gone in with vP, Mitchell and Quirke.

Re Dombrandt, a point made before the 2015 WC (god time flies), fitness but not fitness tailored to suit. You regularly see Dombrandt with eye catching contributions late on in games for Harlequins but you don't see him truck it into traffic all game like England had him do. Another tick for Willis in that respect as he was the no flash part of the Wasps team (though you would suspect that England have specifically focussed on required or demanded asks in the last 6 weeks).

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:With Dombrandt at 8 just to keep it the full triangle or creation...

Got to do something to make Care look fit.

Play him next to Ben Youngs?

I like it. Guarantee one of them gets to a ruck quickly. A bit like when folk talked about Foden's ability to step in at 9 as a useful reason to pick him on the wing. "Most turnovers happen out wide so we are more likely to have a scrum-half there to play quickly". Meanwhile we had Hape and a broken Tindall in the centres and Mark Cueto moving about as fast as Duncan Bell chained to a sofa.

Personally I'm a big fan of any player assessing when to play SH for that reason. Play the fastest SH in the world and he's still getting to the next break down slower if the team are looking to play wide and stretch the defence than the guy who is playing narrower. Players need to be able to make fast decisions, under pressure and when knackered as to whether to try offloads and avoid the ruck, try to protect or play it away themselves. These days you're seeing more and more centres up there with the best guys at getting over the ball.

I don't think Dombrandt is unfit as such but he's not a hard yards making, carrying 8 in a Billy V mode. So maybe he appears unfit as not making contribution one might expect an 8 to do in certain attritional type matches.
Not being party to his fitness data no-one here can know for sure how fit or otherwise he is or any other player for that matter.

As for 9s, Mitchell, Quirke and JvP would also be my choices. I'm not too unhappy about Care as he is still a good 9 but best years arguably behind him.

mountain man wrote:
As for 9s, Mitchell, Quirke and JvP would also be my choices. I'm not too unhappy about Care as he is still a good 9 but best years arguably behind him.

Quirke has been struggling with injuries and form. Finished the season second choice at his club being used as an impact player. Definitely got a big future ahead of him if he can stay fit but makes sense longer term to give him a full pre season this summer and then look to hopefully have him back for next year's six nations.

Mitchell was in the squad but seemingly didn't impress. Has been in and around the training squad for a while. Obviously something he does or doesn't do is not going down well with the coaches. Borthwick has gone with experience and leadership though which may have counted against him. JVP whilst younger has captained Tigers and England under 20s.

I'm still surprised Gus Warr didn't at least get a look in to the training squad, you'd have thought his style would have suited England under Borthwick and at 23 he could develop further. The form 9 in the Prem last season.

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)
14. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 18 caps)
13. Joe Marchant (Stade Francais, 15 caps)
12. Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers, 4 caps)
11. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 21 caps)
9. Danny Care (Harlequins, 87 caps)
1. Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 48 caps)
2. Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps)
3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 25 caps)
4. David Ribbans (Toulon, 5 caps)
5. George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
6. Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 19 caps)
7. Tom Pearson (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
8. Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 14 caps)

Replacements:
16. Theo Dan (Saracens, uncapped)
17. Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 61 caps)
19. Jonny Hill (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
20. Tom Willis (Saracens, uncapped)
21. Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
22. George Ford (Sale Sharks, 81 caps)
23. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 56 caps)

4567 has some power in it...with a creative 8 to compliment.

Really hope Blamire shows what he can do.

So it is the B team with a few guarantees then.

Well Porter and Marchant at 12 and 13, bit unexpected but not unhappy to see how it works although Porter not convinced in past.
Hope Theo Dan gets some time on pitch.
Pearson, happy to see him in team.
Arundell not even on bench, hopefully next match.

No Ben Youngs!

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it is the B team with a few guarantees then.

Maybe not...you dont know how theyve gone in training.

Some of the pretenders might have been pulling up trees and the old pros not.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it is the B team with a few guarantees then.

Maybe not...you dont know how theyve gone in training.

Some of the pretenders might have been pulling up trees and the old pros not.

It's definitely not anywhere near the preferred 15/23 come on. On another day you could say they're playing for their place but we know from Wigglesworth said that's not the case. I suspect if Willis isn't starting they will be going with Dombrandt and Vunipola for the WC, maybe it's 1 out of Pearson or Ludlam, be interesting to see whether Hill comes on for 1 of the latter and we move Martin to 6 for half an hour or so. Murley recalled for a week to hold tackle bags and then be released.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it is the B team with a few guarantees then.

Maybe not...you dont know how theyve gone in training.

Some of the pretenders might have been pulling up trees and the old pros not.

It's definitely not anywhere near the preferred 15/23 come on. On another day you could say they're playing for their place but we know from Wigglesworth said that's not the case. I suspect if Willis isn't starting they will be going with Dombrandt and Vunipola for the WC, maybe it's 1 out of Pearson or Ludlam, be interesting to see whether Hill comes on for 1 of the latter and we move Martin to 6 for half an hour or so. Murley recalled for a week to hold tackle bags and then be released.

Whats the preferred 15/23

Clearly he'll have a gameplan...maybe the fringe junior lads are buying into it way better than some seniors? Hypothetical, but who knows.

I'd be pretty happy to guess that only Steward and Genge will start the game vs Argentina.

On another day you could say they're playing for their place but we know from Wigglesworth said that's not the case.

And you think that's true? I'd say 100% they are playing for a place in RWC 23, what Wigglesworth said is just sound bite for media.
Otherwise fringe/uncapped players would think "why am I bothering then".

This is definitely a trial, certainly if I was in team I'd be looking to make my mark and catch eye of coaches.