England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

First topic message reminder :

Continued.....

doctor_grey wrote:

mountain man wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Regarding the reasons for poor performances by England - excluding how well the other teams played - was the top 10%.  To me, one reason of many, but likely the most important.

Like Geordie, my opinions change somewhat about whom I would take, but that really means I am not convinced by quite a few players.  One thing for sure, I will never trust Billy V. again.  Even if he is lights out in the practise games, I just can't trust.  Unfortunately, the cupboard is pretty bare at the back of the scrum.  I like Dombrandt's game but he lacks the ultimate physicality of vintage 8s.  

Unless I missed it you didn't say what that reason was? Unless you mean top 10% as in head? Thougt that was usually referred to as the top 2% or something?

Anyway, regards number 8 if Billy not involved then left with Dombrandt who is an excellent player but definitely lacks physicality and got badly blown away against France. Otherwise it's a make shift 8 seeing as Mercer not included. Curry at 8 definitely not an option I would use.

So, it's just 8,9,10,11,12,13 and 14 that need sorting. Hmm and maybe 2nd row partner for Itoje.

Other than that team totally ready....

Top 10% or top 2%, we mean the same - unless one of knows not-so-smart people who are actually 8% smarter than the other?  Translating my somewhat obtuse comment for the rest of the proletariat, I am referring to the mental aspect, which has seemed to go missing with so many games.....  

I guess some players just have fat heads

Tom Willis probably suits the basic 8 blueprint better than Dombrandt. Just not sure he's that good.

I'd agree with that. Unfortunately we have only a few games to find out.

From an article in Friday's telegraph:

John Connolly was nicknamed ‘Knuckles’ on account of his past occupation as a nightclub bouncer and the former Australia head coach pulls no punches on his assessment of Eddie Jones’ return with the Wallabies.

“A bloody disaster mate,” Connolly says from Down Under. “How did we end up with Eddie again? He is full of it. He talks a great game but plays a terrible one. He is a charlatan, he is a failed selector. He was the captain’s pick by the chairman who just came into the job.”

Connolly succeeded Jones as Australia head coach first time around in 2006 and had to deal with the broken shell of a Wallabies squad that had lost eight out of nine Tests.

“When I took over from Eddie, the players were like beaten down sheepdogs,” Connolly said. “If you walked in a room they would have their heads down and were scared to do anything. There was no leadership. There was no development. It was a total void that took nearly a year to rebuild. I can’t believe we have made the same mistake again.”

Maybe a bit of history there, but what was said does sound familiar.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/07/28/australia-regret-eddie-jones-return-john-connolly-nz/

Wow...very familiar.....

And now murley back in.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And now murley back in.

Hopefully he's not the only one.

I'm confused by Borthwicks approach.

Rodd was out and then back in. He doesn't comment on those out so we don't know the reason. Could be personal, rest or injury related.

Indecision? He's certainly bringing his captains persona to the role.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Indecision? He's certainly bringing his captains persona to the role.

Borthwick doesn't seem the indecisive type.

Likely to over plan, that's an option.

When is team announced for Saturday game with Wales, Thursday as usual?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Indecision? He's certainly bringing his captains persona to the role.

Borthwick doesn't seem the indecisive type.

Likely to over plan, that's an option.

Maybe he's developed the trait as he realises he's in over his depth.

mountain man wrote:When is team announced for Saturday game with Wales, Thursday as usual?

Thursday for the game. Monday for the WC squad.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:When is team announced for Saturday game with Wales, Thursday as usual?

Thursday for the game. Monday for the WC squad.

Our Irish chum giving it large on BBC HYS. His knowledge unsurpassed. Nick Skelton a front row apparently. This along with number 11 being a centre, Dupont a fly half and numerous other gems.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Indecision? He's certainly bringing his captains persona to the role.

Borthwick doesn't seem the indecisive type.

Likely to over plan, that's an option.

It's Murley's birthday today. I reckon he was given a week out of camp so they could blow up the balloons and hang the streamers without him getting wind of it.

The Irish English man by any chance. Its a weird mix on the Beeb between people wanting to talk rugby, wums with knowledge, and a load of people who maybe watch some 6 nations every few years.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Irish English man by any chance. Its a weird mix on the Beeb between people wanting to talk rugby, wums with knowledge, and a load of people who maybe watch some 6 nations every few years.

That's the one. Finkelstein is it's username. Is on literally every HYS and thinks knows everything about everything. Most fun to point out all the multiple errors.

Currently an Ireland fan but you just know if they get knocked out will jump to England even though he/she trolls England at times.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Indecision? He's certainly bringing his captains persona to the role.

Borthwick doesn't seem the indecisive type.

Likely to over plan, that's an option.

Maybe he's developed the trait as he realises he's in over his depth.

That will be answered in the world cup.

Hes getting a lot of unwarranted criticism in my opinon...so i actually hope he proves he is more than able for this job.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Indecision? He's certainly bringing his captains persona to the role.

Borthwick doesn't seem the indecisive type.

Likely to over plan, that's an option.

Maybe he's developed the trait as he realises he's in over his depth.

That will be answered in the world cup.

Hes getting a lot of unwarranted criticism in my opinon...so i actually hope he proves he is more than able for this job.

He's not a sexy pick and some posters can't get past the fact the coaches they really wanted weren't interested in the job.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Indecision? He's certainly bringing his captains persona to the role.

Borthwick doesn't seem the indecisive type.

Likely to over plan, that's an option.

Maybe he's developed the trait as he realises he's in over his depth.

That will be answered in the world cup.

Hes getting a lot of unwarranted criticism in my opinon...so i actually hope he proves he is more than able for this job.

He's getting far too much rope by some.

I just can't accept Sam that only Borthwick was interested in the job. If it turns out to be the case fair enough in terms of this landing at the doorstep of the RFU, they can't do anything if no good coach was available...but then don't sack Jones.

Whether you think Borthwick is right man for job or not, Jones time was definitely up.
He'd lost support of RFU and a lot of fans and media (for what that's worth).

I was a fan of his and supported him up to autumn Internationals but by then I'd had enough. His team selections seemed almost bloody minded in a snub to those in media who criticised his picks.
His constant ill advised sound bites pre match only put more pressure onto team in my opinion.

If a team is winning then the coach can do and say what he wants, if a team isn't and England have been varying between average to poor in last 2 years then enough is enough.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Indecision? He's certainly bringing his captains persona to the role.

Borthwick doesn't seem the indecisive type.

Likely to over plan, that's an option.

Maybe he's developed the trait as he realises he's in over his depth.

That will be answered in the world cup.

Hes getting a lot of unwarranted criticism in my opinon...so i actually hope he proves he is more than able for this job.

He's getting far too much rope by some.

Please list what SB has actually done that makes him so bad for this role...?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Indecision? He's certainly bringing his captains persona to the role.

Borthwick doesn't seem the indecisive type.

Likely to over plan, that's an option.

Maybe he's developed the trait as he realises he's in over his depth.

That will be answered in the world cup.

Hes getting a lot of unwarranted criticism in my opinon...so i actually hope he proves he is more than able for this job.

He's not a sexy pick and some posters can't get past the fact the coaches they really wanted weren't interested in the job.

I think thats its Sam.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just can't accept Sam that only Borthwick was interested in the job. If it turns out to be the case fair enough in terms of this landing at the doorstep of the RFU, they can't do anything if no good coach was available...but then don't sack Jones.

Yeah a proven high quality forwards coach at international level and a head coach who at club level took a club from 11th to Champions in two (and a Covid bit) seasons doesn't count as a good coach.

I'm sure there were other options, the RFU employ a bloke to track and develop coaches in England and English coaches abroad.

In a rare bit of forward thinking the RFU had decided Jones successor last summer.

There's anecdotal evidence from the likes of Shaun Edwards that the RFU did indeed talk to other coaches. The problem is that some fans, including yourself, wanted a star name and most of those weren't interested. Robertson being the one most commonly mentioned when it was clear as day he was holding out for the AB job and that the NZRU were not going to let him out of his contract before deciding on Foster's replacement.

I think Borthwick simply has to be given more time than this (even if the World Cup doesn't go to plan), he has (or will have had) too few games in too difficult circumstances to be judged.

It is just my opinion, but English teams always seem to work better when they are playing to a script, we generally don't do mercurial, and I think Borthwick's meticulousness can find the plan that we need. It may not be off the cuff exciting, but hopefully it will be efficient and winning.

I know it's a very limited view but feel there are parallels between the Borthwick appointment and the Southgate appointment for the lesser ball game. I think he'll be fine, but it may take him some time to get there, and too many people don't have enough patience.

lostinwales wrote:I know it's a very limited view but feel there are parallels between the Borthwick appointment and the Southgate appointment for the lesser ball game. I think he'll be fine, but it may take him some time to get there, and too many people don't have enough patience.

Borthwick has been successful at club level unlike Southgate. Southgate has got rather close whilst erring on the dull side with England though hopefully Borthwick can bring a bit more invention to the party.

mountain man wrote:Whether you think Borthwick is right man for job or not, Jones time was definitely up.
He'd lost support of RFU and a lot of fans and media (for what that's worth).

I was a fan of his and supported him up to autumn Internationals but by then I'd had enough. His team selections seemed almost bloody minded in a snub to those in media who criticised his picks.
His constant ill advised sound bites pre match only put more pressure onto team in my opinion.

If a team is winning then the coach can do and say what he wants, if a team isn't and England have been varying between average to poor in last 2 years then enough is enough.

Yeah right decision to get rid of Jones. Though saying that had I known we were to get Borthwick I'd have wanted to stick.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just can't accept Sam that only Borthwick was interested in the job. If it turns out to be the case fair enough in terms of this landing at the doorstep of the RFU, they can't do anything if no good coach was available...but then don't sack Jones.

Yeah a proven high quality forwards coach at international level and a head coach who at club level took a club from 11th to Champions in two (and a Covid bit) seasons doesn't count as a good coach.

I'm sure there were other options, the RFU employ a bloke to track and develop coaches in England and English coaches abroad.

In a rare bit of forward thinking the RFU had decided Jones successor last summer.

There's anecdotal evidence from the likes of Shaun Edwards that the RFU did indeed talk to other coaches. The problem is that some fans, including yourself, wanted a star name and most of those weren't interested. Robertson being the one most commonly mentioned when it was clear as day he was holding out for the AB job and that the NZRU were not going to let him out of his contract before deciding on Foster's replacement.

Just don't think he's good enough for England. As a forwards coach I liked him a lot. You've got tp remember he got to be champions as Saracens reestablished themselves again and some other had a dip. The rfu only approached Borthwick once Jones had gone, we've been through this. But it could be right that the better coaches all turned us down. Depressing thought.

lostinwales wrote:I know it's a very limited view but feel there are parallels between the Borthwick appointment and the Southgate appointment for the lesser ball game. I think he'll be fine, but it may take him some time to get there, and too many people don't have enough patience.

As a Boro fan at the time of Southgate I'll happily state he isn't good enough either.

They only approached Borthwick after Jones got booted because they'd already approached several coaches when planning a long term successor and settled on Borthwick then. They therefore went after an early release for the preferred option and succeeded. Which makes complete sense.

I don't think anyone's suggested that only Borthwick was interested. Simply that the prominent options others have raised likely weren't. Robertson was blatantly holding out for the ABs job and suggestions of him were a pipe dream. McCall - my preferred option over Borthwick - was on a sabbatical to get away from the game due to stress at the time. Gatland was spoken to as well I believe but went with Wales for a long term contract. Between Baxter and Borthwick I'd take Borthwick personally. I wouldn't have fancied Dave Rennie. Unsure who else was potentially free then? I might be missing someone but after those names my head genuinely went to... Pat Lam? Nopedy, nope, no. Trying to nab Townsend for after the RWC then signing a stop gap for 2023? Which seems very fanciful.

Edwards is a brilliant coach who I remain hopeful will be England defence coach one day. I'm not sure I'd consider him for head coach though. He hasn't done the job since 2011. He had success inheriting that great Wasps side from Gatland of course with a Prem and Heineken Cup win. Well over a decade is a long time out of a head coach role to suddenly take a high profile international job as one. The last time he was heading up Wasps, Serge Betsen was still one of his charges and Martin Johnson was England coach for instance. That's a long time in sport.

formerly known as Sam wrote:He's not a sexy pick and some posters can't get past the fact the coaches they really wanted weren't interested in the job.

We should be honest about this, Borthwick is not sexy. My 23 year old daughter thinks he is end of the road unsexy and the England head coach should look like Ryan Reynolds.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just can't accept Sam that only Borthwick was interested in the job. If it turns out to be the case fair enough in terms of this landing at the doorstep of the RFU, they can't do anything if no good coach was available...but then don't sack Jones.

Yeah a proven high quality forwards coach at international level and a head coach who at club level took a club from 11th to Champions in two (and a Covid bit) seasons doesn't count as a good coach.

I'm sure there were other options, the RFU employ a bloke to track and develop coaches in England and English coaches abroad.

In a rare bit of forward thinking the RFU had decided Jones successor last summer.

There's anecdotal evidence from the likes of Shaun Edwards that the RFU did indeed talk to other coaches. The problem is that some fans, including yourself, wanted a star name and most of those weren't interested. Robertson being the one most commonly mentioned when it was clear as day he was holding out for the AB job and that the NZRU were not going to let him out of his contract before deciding on Foster's replacement.

Just don't think he's good enough for England. As a forwards coach I liked him a lot. You've got tp remember he got to be champions as Saracens reestablished themselves again and some other had a dip. The rfu only approached Borthwick once Jones had gone, we've been through this. But it could be right that the better coaches all turned us down. Depressing thought.

Absolute horse sh!t. From the victory over Wasps at the end of the preceding season Borthwick took Tigers on a winning run over every team in the league. Sarries were so busy re-establishing themselves they comfortably finished second 7 points of Quins who they then demolished in the semi final (full strength Quins as well who were at that point the reigning champions). Don't try and devalue the great work done by Steve at Tigers because he's not the England coach you wanted.

Wasn't much point talking to other coaches when you had already identified the preferred long term successor was there. They'd already done all the leg work, just brought plans forward.

Yeah, even reestablishing themselves Saracens were still that good. We should have just kidnapped mccall.

Anyhow I'm boring myself with the Borthwick thing. We'll have him to next year I reckon then we can all go through this again!

How do we reckon we'll line up this weekend. I suspect there'll be plenty of fringe players with potentially a few of the more experienced guys with them. Can see genge Lawes youngs and then a lot of new combos.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, even reestablishing themselves Saracens were still that good. We should have just kidnapped mccall.

Never going to happen, nor likely to risk kidnapping a guy who's had some recent health problems.

Joe Shaw the Sarries head coach must have been in the contention mix you'd have thought. He's quietly done a very good job there.

In a when you can't get the organ grinder scenario? Doubt the RFU will have even discussed him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Indecision? He's certainly bringing his captains persona to the role.

Borthwick doesn't seem the indecisive type.

Likely to over plan, that's an option.

Maybe he's developed the trait as he realises he's in over his depth.

That will be answered in the world cup.

Hes getting a lot of unwarranted criticism in my opinon...so i actually hope he proves he is more than able for this job.

He's getting far too much rope by some.

Jeez 7.5, he's had 5 games for heavens sake!

He's pretty much the option for the next 4 years (bar an utter meltdown)......so you need to come to some kind of inner peace or something as you're doing yourself no favours.

Just a forum sarge so in the spirit of saying how I see it, there's not much point keeping stum. I seem to remember that he was the guy who could hit the ground running etc, knew the players. I really don't think I will have to put up with him for 4 years. It may be 4 months (give or take)!

Anyway I did try to move it on...expectations for the Wales(') game(s) coming up? As above I think it'll be quite a callow team in terms of caps this weekend, with quite a bit of pressure on some of the guys starting to make an impression. Be interesting to see if that means they go a bit OTT, what with the red card tightrope these days. Normally these games have little riding on them, and can go out to be a blow out, but with a pretty likely quarter final between the 2, will be interesting to see how much both go out to win.

p.s. was hoping NZ would continue to be a bit rubbish to show that Robertson can turn teams around, yet starting to look like he'll only be able to retain world cups and RC.

To be fair i could have managed those crusaders sides to a title....

No 7&1/2 wrote:I seem to remember that he was the guy who could hit the ground running etc, knew the players. I really don't think I will have to put up with him for 4 years. It may be 4 months (give or take)!

We seen steady improvement through the 6N, I really don't get what the drama is.

Even if we lose every game at the WC, SB will keep the position. He's not going anywhere fast and rightly so, he's a good coach and he'll need time.

Ha. Maybe so. Alot of people backed him, they won't want to admit they're wrong. The blame will be placed on the players.

But the Wales game people!

Geordie wrote:To be fair i could have managed those crusaders sides to a title....

In fairness the Saders hadn't actually won a title since 2008 until Robertson took over in 2017. He's then won 5 titles in 7 years with the only years they didn't win being when Super Rugby wasn't running due to covid. They also won Super Rugby Aoteroa in 2022 whilst the 2021 season was cancelled but they were topping the New Zealand conference when that happened. So it's basically a unblemished record from when he took over.

My argument against Razor has never been that he isn't a very talented coach. It's simply that, firstly, he blatantly wasn't interested in any role but the ABs. Secondly, the main criticism thrown at Borthwick was lack of experience. Both in head coach roles where he'd only held one. And at international level where he'd been an assistant to Jones at two different setups. Razor also has only one head coach role though and even less interantional experience. So it felt an odd critique of Borthwick from fans that then, unrealistically, championed Robertson.

For what it's worth I can see Robertson doing very well with NZ. There will be a changing of the guard as some players age out but they have a lot of talent and areas that needed strengthening are doing so. Front row has been up and down for NZ over Fossie's reign for instance. Recently though they've had de Groot and Lomax looking excellent at prop. Whilst Samisoni Taukei'aho is a hell of a player at hooker.

The Crusaders team during their dark years (2008-2017) was incredible though......it's quite impressive that they actually failed to win anything (Oh my Mr Blackadder)....

Robertson will probably do well, he should to be fair. But as you KC, he's not got the credentials we were looking for. He's not really been tested outside of his comfort zone....always taking on a rather impressive side (NZ U20, Canterbury, Crusaders). He did very well with a an amazing Crusaders side......good for him.

Yeah proven winner. Who needs that!

Wales team expectations and wants?

Thinking about the beyond. The RFU gave an initial task to Jones that he develop the next coach, which he did with Borthwick, anyone seen a similar ask in this regard. I.e. we already looking to Sinfield or Wigglesworth as the next step?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thinking about the beyond. The RFU gave an initial task to Jones that he develop the next coach, which he did with Borthwick, anyone seen a similar ask in this regard. I.e. we already looking to Sinfield or Wigglesworth as the next step?

I think he'll just be focusing on rebuilding this shattered England team for the moment...the one Jones destroyed. Then he can focus on mentoring the next gen. But it wont be his priority.