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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 30 Jun 2022, 9:22 am

sensisball wrote:
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?

In five starts and four sub appearances he's bagged five tries. One appearance and one try for England.

It's a bench lacking experience but it's the type of players we'd like to have as options come the world cup.

Ignore the front row that pretty much picked itself.

Chessum - covers lock and 6 highly mobile and physical, good lineout option and we've been desperate for a young lock to come through.

Ludlam - covers 8 and 7 which is what the bench needs, club captain so adds much needed leadership here.

JVP - no one likes the current 9 options for last season's Under 20 captain and player of the J6N gets a chance. Best kicking game of the three 9s on tour and likes to play high tempo.

Porter - covers every position in the backs outside of 9 and 10, could probably do a job on the flank as well. Eddie likes a versatility option as they very much help the overall squad come world cup so audition time for Guy.

Arundell - exciting young player, not ready yet but Eddie will be hoping some international game time might speed up his development. Unlikely starter but potential game changer off the bench, always handy to have one of those at a world cup. Porter's inclusion means Arundell won't have to go in early unless there's multiple injuries.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 30 Jun 2022, 9:27 am

Mr Bounce wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Im worried about Koroibete giving Coka a lesson in speed.

Different sides of the pitch though. But yes, I share your worry. Secretly hoping that big Joe will sit someone down like he did with Dane Haylett-Petty.

Ah i thought they were on the same, Koroibete is normally left wing and Coka right?

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 30 Jun 2022, 9:37 am

Who knows with Eddie's "numbers don't matter" policy 😃

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Post by BamBam Thu 30 Jun 2022, 9:40 am

Think they're both down as the left wing with number 11 but could be wrong!

Give Arundell a few minutes no matter what

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Post by BamBam Thu 30 Jun 2022, 9:56 am

Sam Jeffries is replacing Ewels

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Post by lostinwales Thu 30 Jun 2022, 9:57 am

The only thing to remember is not to expect too much from Arundell. We know what he can do if he gets a chance but it is entirely possible he'll play 10 minutes and not see the ball at all.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 30 Jun 2022, 10:01 am

It feels a bit like a team in transition, and initially my reaction is quite a slow team. Disappointing to see Ludlam and Vunipola on the bench tbh but Arundell adds the ying to that Yang.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 30 Jun 2022, 10:12 am

The lack of pace in our back line is a big concern for me.

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 30 Jun 2022, 10:15 am

BamBam wrote:Sam Jeffries is replacing Ewels

Jeffries' inclusion is strange to my mind. He is a 29 year old journeyman who doesn't seem to have threatened the international radar before a few months ago. We have a number of players who have similar attributes, but who may actually have a decent England career ahead of them.
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Post by Cumbrian Thu 30 Jun 2022, 10:15 am

BamBam wrote:Sam Jeffries is replacing Ewels

Jeffries' inclusion is strange to my mind. He is a 29 year old journeyman who doesn't seem to have threatened the international radar before a few months ago. We have a number of players who have similar attributes, but who may actually have a decent England career ahead of them.
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Post by dummy_half Thu 30 Jun 2022, 10:28 am

Cumbrian wrote:
BamBam wrote:Sam Jeffries is replacing Ewels

Jeffries' inclusion is strange to my mind.  He is a 29 year old journeyman who doesn't seem to have threatened the international radar before a few months ago.  We have a number of players who have similar attributes, but who may actually have a decent England career ahead of them.

Perhaps a bit of a case of the next one actually fit and available, so a short term stop gap selection that hopefully won't be needed.

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Post by BamBam Thu 30 Jun 2022, 10:41 am

Marchant is pretty quick and Joe C is fast for such a big guy. May being available for the other wing would have been ideal but don't think it's the slowest back line we've put out recently

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 30 Jun 2022, 10:47 am

I've seen quicker. Just seems to be between 2 thoughts of thinking. It's a pretty big slow pack presumably looking for steady front foot narrow ball, then there's Care back in and Smith, with a slow ish back 3. Cokanasiga can shift when at full tilt but sluggish off the mark. I'm not sure how they are being sent out to play from that.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 30 Jun 2022, 11:17 am

Poor Arundell and Heyes, playing for the wrong team.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 30 Jun 2022, 11:29 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've seen quicker. Just seems to be between 2 thoughts of thinking. It's a pretty big slow pack presumably looking for steady front foot narrow ball, then there's Care back in and Smith, with a slow ish back 3. Cokanasiga can shift when at full tilt but sluggish off the mark. I'm not sure how they are being sent out to play from that.

England struggled to make indents in the 6N. Doesn't matter how rapid you are if there's no space to attack into. Steward, Nowell and Cokanasiga from the back into the line will give Smith and Farrell some options and hopefully overload the Aussie defence. Worry about pace if we get into the sort of form where we start carving them up.

Cokanasiga is a very good finisher so if we do start creating space he'll be fine.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 30 Jun 2022, 11:30 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Poor Arundell and Heyes, playing for the wrong team.

Heyes dad doesn't consider himself Welsh despite being born there so little chance of Heyes opting that way. His mum has Irish connections though so probably good he was tied down last summer.

In three years both could change their mind if they end up agreeing with you by the end of the summer though.

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Post by dummy_half Thu 30 Jun 2022, 1:22 pm

The back line is always going to seem slow with Farrell at 12 and no outright flyer on the wing (I think May would likely have been selected if not Covid affected).

I'm not so worried about the lack of pace in attack, as hopefully Billy V and Genge in particular can punch some holes in the middle and suck the defence in, giving space to exploit out wider, (which hopefully Care, Smith and Ferrel can utilise), and the guys from 13 out are not exactly slow once in space. And of course Arundell on the bench IS rapid.

More concerned with the defensive side of the ball, that we will have to be careful not to be run outside of.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 30 Jun 2022, 2:13 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I've seen quicker. Just seems to be between 2 thoughts of thinking. It's a pretty big slow pack presumably looking for steady front foot narrow ball, then there's Care back in and Smith, with a slow ish back 3. Cokanasiga can shift when at full tilt but sluggish off the mark. I'm not sure how they are being sent out to play from that.

England struggled to make indents in the 6N. Doesn't matter how rapid you are if there's no space to attack into. Steward, Nowell and Cokanasiga from the back into the line will give Smith and Farrell some options and hopefully overload the Aussie defence. Worry about pace if we get into the sort of form where we start carving them up.

Cokanasiga is a very good finisher so if we do start creating space he'll be fine.

Upgrades at 9 and 12 help us on alot. Despite not much pace in the back 3 at least the 2 wingers are wingers. Getting there slowly.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 30 Jun 2022, 2:30 pm

I'm very happy with that 23 all things considered. A shame that May is injured but that to me is the blueprint of a decent team if the Smith-Farrell partnership can get the attack functioning.

The wings are still clearly missing May and Watson but that back three is an improvement on the Six Nations.

The bench impact from the forwards looks very promising. I like the use of LCD on the bench for that reason.

Delighted that Arundell is included too.

Realistically over the next year we could see a few of Sinckler, Watson, May, Marler and Manu added into that sort of selection as upgrades on Stuart, Nowell, Cokanasiga, Mako and Porter respectively. They are all fairly like for like replacements too rather than square peg in round holes type changes.

Dombrandt impressed as the Six Nations went on but I am looking forward to seeing if Billy can bring his improved form for Sarries into the England side again. At his peak Billy was absolutely fantastic, he's young enough that it isn't infeasible that he can get back there. Having Billy and Dombrandt as very different but strong 8 options would be a good position going forward.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 30 Jun 2022, 2:55 pm

This will almost be two games in one.  The first 60-ish minutes with the starting XV and the remaining time with the hybrid bench/subs/finishers team.  

This will be interesting to watch but I have to admit the bench looks concerning. I suppose many people have argued about why take a player if there is no intent to play them, eh.  So let's play 'em and see what shakes out.  The worst scenario is the young'uns only get a cameo from which they learn nothing except how to sing GSTQ in front of 75k adoring Aussies.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 01 Jul 2022, 5:32 am

Telegraph: "England head coach Eddie Jones revealed that Owen Farrell was 'very unhappy' at being stripped of the captaincy."

Telegraph headline: "Farrell fury after Jones names Lawes as captain"

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Post by Poorfour Fri 01 Jul 2022, 8:15 am

Some of the pace issue is offset by having Marchant, Smith and Care in midfield. Marchant is probably faster than the wingers and the other two have the acceleration to exploit a gap. It will make it hard for Australia to drift too fast, especially with Farrell to run the next phase if Smith breaks and gets tackled.

I can imagine a game where England’s tactics are to pull Australia all around the field and then give Arundell some time at the end to exploit tired legs.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 01 Jul 2022, 8:45 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph: "England head coach Eddie Jones revealed that Owen Farrell was 'very unhappy' at being stripped of the captaincy."

Telegraph headline: "Farrell fury after Jones names Lawes as captain"

Perfectly encapsulated example of click bait.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 01 Jul 2022, 9:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph: "England head coach Eddie Jones revealed that Owen Farrell was 'very unhappy' at being stripped of the captaincy."

Telegraph headline: "Farrell fury after Jones names Lawes as captain"

Perfectly encapsulated example of click bait.

Ruck also ran it, so that confirms it as click bait.

From the available players I quite like the side, I know I have a bias, but I would have much preferred Tommy Freeman at 11 to Nowell. Nowell these days has lost any real pace and although solid in defence, he does not have a strong kicking game. Freeman has both.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 01 Jul 2022, 9:32 am

I'm happy ish, I find that it's the exception to see someone post that it's exactly the team they'd pick purely because of the quality options. It comes down to type/style of player a lot of the time (yes I think the likes of Lawes are quality!). I agree on the Freeman choice over Nowell. I just don't think Nowell is the best balance for that back 3. It may be that him and Cokanasiga will be looking more at strike moves to break the line in midfield which could work well but Freeman is the guy with more form currently and the greater try scoring threat.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 01 Jul 2022, 10:01 am

I think much will depend on Cokasaniga.

I think we all agree when he burst through he was exactly the kind of explosive powerhouse we were looking for. Hes had a few issues on and off the pitch which has derailed him a bit.

Maybe a good run in the side and full training etc might just get him back on the rails. If it does great, if not...then he needs to be put back to club rugby to see if he can really get back to his best. We do have options in the wings...some more "ready" than others.

And one we rarely mention is Murley at Quins...

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Post by Poorfour Fri 01 Jul 2022, 10:48 am

Yeah, I was a bit disappointed that Eddie hasn’t really looked at Murley. Lynagh has been getting the press coverage, but Murley finished the season with 15 tries (second to Malins), top of the clean breaks and 5th for metres made. He’s much stronger than he looks and close to Marchant in how well he reads the game.

I guess Eddie doesn’t wanted a balance of youth and experience in the touring squad, but if he wants a Nowell-like winger then Murley is playing more like Nowell than Nowell. I suspect his time will come.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 01 Jul 2022, 4:16 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph: "England head coach Eddie Jones revealed that Owen Farrell was 'very unhappy' at being stripped of the captaincy."

Telegraph headline: "Farrell fury after Jones names Lawes as captain"

Perfectly encapsulated example of click bait.

Ruck also ran it, so that confirms it as click bait.

From the available players I quite like the side, I know I have a bias, but I would have much preferred Tommy Freeman at 11 to Nowell. Nowell these days has lost any real pace and although solid in defence, he does not have a strong kicking game. Freeman has both.

An underrated aspect of Freeman's game is that he goes looking for work off his wing and does it to decent effect. I suspect that's one of the main reasons Nowell is in. Eddie isn't picking wingers to hug the touchline and I think if Nowell were to have issues this week Freeman might get a look in before the end of the tour.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 01 Jul 2022, 4:35 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph: "England head coach Eddie Jones revealed that Owen Farrell was 'very unhappy' at being stripped of the captaincy."

Telegraph headline: "Farrell fury after Jones names Lawes as captain"

Perfectly encapsulated example of click bait.

Ruck also ran it, so that confirms it as click bait.

From the available players I quite like the side, I know I have a bias, but I would have much preferred Tommy Freeman at 11 to Nowell. Nowell these days has lost any real pace and although solid in defence, he does not have a strong kicking game. Freeman has both.

An underrated aspect of Freeman's game is that he goes looking for work off his wing and does it to decent effect. I suspect that's one of the main reasons Nowell is in. Eddie isn't picking wingers to hug the touchline and I think if Nowell were to have issues this week Freeman might get a look in before the end of the tour.
I agree, and I am pretty sure Freeman will get his time. As you said, mate, Freeman goes looking for work which I think is why Eddie Jones mentioned him as a possible 13 (though his proclivity to want to play people out of position still seems peculiar). Obviously, I would rather he stay in the back three and make his mark there.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 01 Jul 2022, 6:18 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph: "England head coach Eddie Jones revealed that Owen Farrell was 'very unhappy' at being stripped of the captaincy."

Telegraph headline: "Farrell fury after Jones names Lawes as captain"

Perfectly encapsulated example of click bait.

Ruck also ran it, so that confirms it as click bait.

From the available players I quite like the side, I know I have a bias, but I would have much preferred Tommy Freeman at 11 to Nowell. Nowell these days has lost any real pace and although solid in defence, he does not have a strong kicking game. Freeman has both.

An underrated aspect of Freeman's game is that he goes looking for work off his wing and does it to decent effect. I suspect that's one of the main reasons Nowell is in. Eddie isn't picking wingers to hug the touchline and I think if Nowell were to have issues this week Freeman might get a look in before the end of the tour.
I agree, and I am pretty sure Freeman will get his time.  As you said, mate, Freeman goes looking for work which I think is why Eddie Jones mentioned him as a possible 13 (though his proclivity to want to play people out of position still seems peculiar).  Obviously, I would rather he stay in the back three and make his mark there.

I think the playing 13 thing is about versatility for the world cup squad. If Freeman can play multiple positions he becomes a more useful option. It's why Steward has been trialled on the wing and Porter is probably in the squad currently.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 01 Jul 2022, 9:15 pm

Predictions for tomorrow? I think Australia will win by a comfortable 15 point+ margin, with England looking typically disjointed and ragged, but maybe's there more optimism on here? The bookmakers only narrowly favour Australia.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 01 Jul 2022, 9:38 pm

Duty281 wrote:Predictions for tomorrow? I think Australia will win by a comfortable 15 point+ margin, with England looking typically disjointed and ragged, but maybe's there more optimism on here? The bookmakers only narrowly favour Australia.

Pundits in the north seem to think it's more in the balance. The England squad selection has gone down reasonably well, and both sides are still a bit unknown. There's every reason to think Australia could match us up front, using their maul, and then present multiple backline threats. Still, England have more players capable of getting over the gainline, which has been the missing piece for much of the season.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 01 Jul 2022, 9:48 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Predictions for tomorrow? I think Australia will win by a comfortable 15 point+ margin, with England looking typically disjointed and ragged, but maybe's there more optimism on here? The bookmakers only narrowly favour Australia.

Pundits in the north seem to think it's more in the balance. The England squad selection has gone down reasonably well, and both sides are still a bit unknown. There's every reason to think Australia could match us up front, using their maul, and then present multiple backline threats. Still, England have more players capable of getting over the gainline, which has been the missing piece for much of the season.
I think the challenge for England is how they mesh and play together. And this may improve over the course of the game. I think Australia will play more in the Brumbies ruck and maul game plan. And England need their beef to stop this cold and then launch their own ruck and maul tactics. And then launch the backs. We will see. I have some doubts about the bench. But as most of us have said, why bring the young'uns if not to play them.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 01 Jul 2022, 10:21 pm

Given the size and ability of the England pack you'd hope that we'd be able to defend the rolling mauls. Itoje is a menace in that regard and Hill's additional bulk should help. If that doesn't work Chessum off the bench is quite handy at stealing lineouts. The maul could be the deciding factor as it'll be something England will want as a key weapon as well.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 01 Jul 2022, 10:38 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Given the size and ability of the England pack you'd hope that we'd be able to defend the rolling mauls. Itoje is a menace in that regard and Hill's additional bulk should help. If that doesn't work Chessum off the bench is quite handy at stealing lineouts. The maul could be the deciding factor as it'll be something England will want as a key weapon as well.
Great minds think alike!

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Post by nlpnlp Fri 01 Jul 2022, 11:19 pm

It is certainly a very experienced England starting 15 with a combined 644 caps. This possibly reflects the pressure that Eddie feels he is under after a couple of poor 6 Nations. Australia whilst not that inexperienced start with 468 caps and include a couple of debutants.

The bench however is the reverse, with the England subs having only 116 caps compared to Australia's 282.

So I suspect that Eddie will want his starting 15 to go deep into the game. At least the weather looks like it might be in England's favour, being relatively cool and wet.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Sat 02 Jul 2022, 10:56 am

QC out injuring ankle in warm up.
Real shame was looking forward to match up with Smith

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:05 am

Great stuff from that native Aussie singer

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Post by RDW Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:08 am

Sorry folks but having lived here the last 2 and a bit years I'm supporting Australia tonight. Been a hell of a journey watching their progression in the last few years.

Hope it's a cracker!

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Post by BigGee Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:13 am

You England Fans, this thread is over 1000 replies now so is going to fold soon.

You might want to think about a new thread for these games

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Post by RDW Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:23 am

Fair to say this game has been dominated by breakdown penalties so far

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Post by RDW Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:28 am

All England so far!

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Post by Old Man Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:29 am

Why is Smith playing outside Farrell?

Smith has Esterhuizen outside him, now he has Farrell inside him?

That upsets his play and rythm

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Post by MichaelT Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:31 am

Thats awful to watch for the Australian fullback. The replays are unnecessary.

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Post by RDW Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:38 am

Not the best of games so far - the kind of game where one try will make all the difference.

Wallabies being hit hard by injury!

Slipper is a LH playing emergency TH - could be a problem for the Aussies

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Post by BigGee Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:48 am

Aussie second row in trouble here - just plain stupid

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:48 am

Old Man wrote:Why is Smith playing outside Farrell?

Smith has Esterhuizen outside him, now he has Farrell inside him?

That upsets his play and rythm

It's to give Smith more time on the ball and take some of the pressure off, Quins do sometimes play like that to negate blitz defences. Smith's playing pretty badly so far, looks like he's struggling to get his head in the game. Poor passes and bad decision making isn't very Smith normally.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:48 am

I would wave this on. A red card is harsh.

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Post by RDW Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:49 am

That's got to be the softest red card ever seen. No force or danger whatsoever.

Two yellows was surely the sensible choice?


Last edited by RDW on Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by BigGee Sat 02 Jul 2022, 11:50 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I would wave this on. A red card is harsh.


Not much of a butt, but it was one nevertheless. Red card all day!

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