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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:22 am

First topic message reminder :

sensisball wrote:
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?

In five starts and four sub appearances he's bagged five tries. One appearance and one try for England.

It's a bench lacking experience but it's the type of players we'd like to have as options come the world cup.

Ignore the front row that pretty much picked itself.

Chessum - covers lock and 6 highly mobile and physical, good lineout option and we've been desperate for a young lock to come through.

Ludlam - covers 8 and 7 which is what the bench needs, club captain so adds much needed leadership here.

JVP - no one likes the current 9 options for last season's Under 20 captain and player of the J6N gets a chance. Best kicking game of the three 9s on tour and likes to play high tempo.

Porter - covers every position in the backs outside of 9 and 10, could probably do a job on the flank as well. Eddie likes a versatility option as they very much help the overall squad come world cup so audition time for Guy.

Arundell - exciting young player, not ready yet but Eddie will be hoping some international game time might speed up his development. Unlikely starter but potential game changer off the bench, always handy to have one of those at a world cup. Porter's inclusion means Arundell won't have to go in early unless there's multiple injuries.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:59 pm

You can't be serious - just got called into work. Hopefully not as bad a mess as England.

See y'all later...

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:00 pm

Arundell, as Welsh as Will Rowlands…

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Post by Duty281 Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:00 pm

Arundell might be starting next week!

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Post by RDW Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:01 pm

England finally show some attacking intent when 16 points down and a minute left

What a finish Arundell! He's gonna be something special

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:03 pm

doctor_grey wrote:You can't be serious - just got called into work.  Hopefully not as bad a mess as England.  

See y'all later...

Ahh well, there goes the planned boozy day.
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Post by Rugby Fan Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:03 pm

We finally got the monkey off our back of not losing to Australia under Jones.

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Post by Duty281 Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:05 pm

That's made the scoreline respectable, but it doesn't hide a quite miserable overall performance against an Aussie side that was down to 14 for just over half of it.

Hooper was immense. Full credit to Australia, a lot of teams would have folded at 9-14 and with a man sent off.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:05 pm

I didn't see the game how did Nowell play?

It sounds like nobody distinguished themselves.
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Post by tigertattie Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:05 pm

Wow. Did Australia decide the game was won and went into the dressing room early?
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Post by BigGee Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:05 pm

Hard to begrudge Australia that one, particularly the way the cards went.

All to play for during the rest of the series though

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Post by Duty281 Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:07 pm

Up to Wales and Scotland to salvage northern pride.

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Post by BigGee Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:08 pm

Duty281 wrote:Up to Wales and Scotland to salvage northern pride.

Not desperately confident about either of those!

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:14 pm

We had a lot of experienced players on the pitch at the crucial moment, when we took the lead with a man up. However, it never looked like we were on the same page.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who thought it might be an idea to put our fastest, most elusive runner on the pitch against 14 men much earlier. Having said that, we shouldn't have needed his cutting edge to finish off that opposition.

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Post by lostinwales Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:24 pm

Arundell is going to be a legend if he stays fit

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Post by RDW Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:24 pm

Its probably gone under the radar in Europe but I've watched every Aussie Super Rugby and Wallabies game in the last 2 and a bit years since I've lived here and genuinely think the Wallabies are really building something. The character, fight and not to mention skill and execution has been shown for a while now, it's just taken them time to put it all together. Recent wins over the ABs and SA show that this is no fluke.

They also have some genuine World XV contenders in Hooper, Kerevi and Koroibete with the rest of the team really raising their standards too. Angus Bell and Tupou are genuine world class props to come (Tupou is probably already there).

After so many years in the doldrums a top class Wallabies team really could shake up the world order.

Looking forward to test 2 and 3!

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Post by Old Man Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:25 pm

Eddie is going to need to pull a houdini trick if he wants to make the RWC final next year.

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Post by BamBam Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:43 pm

Fair play to Australia, they fought hard and showed more of a backbone than England managed when similarly under the cosh.

Great to see Arundell show a glimpse of his promise. Shame for the “scouting system” of another country though! Back to trawling granny Facebook pages eh lads

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Post by Recwatcher16 Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:52 pm

The Oz red card didn't do England any favours, as Oz could then attack the breakdown and slow England down even further with impunity. There should have been at least one yellow against Oz earlier than Lolesio, but the (NZ) ref was never going to give one.
Saying that, England looked lethargic and wasnt good enough and the combinations clearly haven't gelled yet.

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Post by Yoda Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:29 pm

Dave Rennie take a bow, Australia looked more dogged and wanted the win desperately. Player well from 60 and their young players have some belief. They actually pulled together more after the red card. England are disorganised and disconnected. We should have kept it tight and strangled them when they went down to 14. We can take something away from it, our youngsters esp. van poorfleet and Arundel look quality so hopefully eddy takes a hint and selects accordingly. Some old players of ours looked past it I'm afraid. Time for new blood.

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Post by hugehandoff Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:33 pm

Lots to be disappointed with here. 2nd row was poor and my feeling that Itoje needed a summer off looks right. Hill petulant and the boring Itoje screaming at line outs I think has to be stopped. Not exactly in the spirit of the game. Midfield did not work and there was zero threat in that area. Smith fairly poor overall. We had plenty of ball but never threatened in any way. Aus will get better and I think we are in for a tough series.

Impressed with Stuart to be fair.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:03 pm

Care was brought in to speed up ruck service, and yet we didn't see much change out if that. Often, it didn't seem especially fast. On the occasions he did move it, the backline looked taken by surprise.

Watching our backline moves, it was easy to see who would get the ball, so, presumably, the Wallaby defence knew too. Sometimes, there'd be an unexpected break but it was so unexpected, our support was usually too slow to retain the ball.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:46 pm

doctor_grey wrote:You can't be serious - just got called into work.  Hopefully not as bad a mess as England.  

See y'all later...
Well, this was a bloody one, a open/compound multi fracture left leg.  Apparently a high school kid was warming up with his soccer team before an early game.  Seems he collided with another kid, landed funny and the tibia and fibula both had fractured and were penetrating the skin.  Problem was he went into shock, had a shallow pulse, and was a respiratory risk during the procedure.  And we were short of docs and nurses again.  

But all's well that ends well.  Which is a most inappropriate lead-in to a discussion of mighty, mighty England.  Where to start?  Here is my list of all the positives I saw:
(1) The back row was terrific regardless who was playing.
(2) See point 1

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Post by Poorfour Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:28 pm

Just watched the match having recorded it so I could attend my daughter’s school speech day.

The main thing I came away with was that England need to be much more streetwise at the breakdown. Australia were frequently offside or lying over the ball and got away with it while England were trying to be squeaky clean.

Mind you, Doleman’s handling of it was dire. The penalty to Aus on their 5m just before their final try was appalling. The tackler was bound into the England side of the ruck and preventing access to the ball, which is how Australia managed to have two men on their feet and contesting it. That was only one of a long list of examples where Australia were allowed to lie on the wrong side and illegally block the ball - but England didn’t respond to that style of refereeing at all.

Situations where Australia would have swarmed round the sides to go for a marginal ball on the fringe of the ruck saw England standing around with their hands in the air to show they weren’t interfering.

That aside, Eddie’s unstructured attack is finally starting to fire and was only let down by the breakdown issues and some unfamiliarity - Smith was firing passes that didn’t take account of the speed of the player he was passing to - too far forward for Itoje, too far back for Steward.

The other big thing that needs work is fielding the kick off. Australia were always able to pressure England, whereas Farrell was kicking deep and while the English kick chase was good, it usually gave Australia a chance to clear their lines.

It sets up an interesting series, anyway. If England can tighten up in a couple of areas, and start Arundell (what an impact in his first test!) then the second game is very winnable.
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Post by tigertattie Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:34 pm

Hope the boy makes a speedy recovery Sad
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:05 pm

Well got to watch it earlier than I thought but now just disappointed. Just didn't show any ambition to score until Arundell came on. Obviously the at that point looks so easy 2 tries, should have won easily. Massively disappointing loss. Should have won. Smith should be kicking and bad captaincy by Lawes.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:16 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I didn't see the  game how did Nowell play?

It sounds like nobody distinguished themselves.
Couple of decent runs but offered no real threat.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well got to watch it earlier than I thought but now just disappointed. Just didn't show any ambition to score until Arundell came on. Obviously the at that point looks so easy 2 tries, should have won easily. Massively disappointing loss. Should have won. Smith should be kicking and bad captaincy by Lawes.

He will be lucky to make the side next week. He was badly undercooked and I was surprised Eddie didn't drop Farrell into 10 use Porter at 12. The backs outside of Smith actually had decent ish games but their supply was badly lacking.

Thought Care played well but emptied his tank for the cause and Eddie left him out there too long before pulling the trigger for JVP. Care offered more direction than Randall has been offering so that's at least a step forward.

A game we should have won but we made a mess of our chances whereas the Aussies were far more clinical.

The discipline from the forwards remains an issue and our second row need to have a look in the mirror as both Hill and Itoje were guilty in that regard. They've got to be more savvy.

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Post by Yoda Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:37 pm

We need to stop the stupid celebration at scrum time and the stupid shouting at the lineout. The silly hair pulling and crap like that just can't keep happening. We just failed to make the most of the good attacks we did start to generate. You could tell Nowell is still coming back from injury and big Joe for his size didn't influence the game. Two bits of magic from Arundel is something to get excited about.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:42 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Well got to watch it earlier than I thought but now just disappointed. Just didn't show any ambition to score until Arundell came on. Obviously the at that point looks so easy 2 tries, should have won easily. Massively disappointing loss. Should have won. Smith should be kicking and bad captaincy by Lawes.

He will be lucky to make the side next week. He was badly undercooked and I was surprised Eddie didn't drop Farrell into 10 use Porter at 12. The backs outside of Smith actually had decent ish games but their supply was badly lacking.

Thought Care played well but emptied his tank for the cause and Eddie left him out there too long before pulling the trigger for JVP. Care offered more direction than Randall has been offering so that's at least a step forward.

A game we should have won but we made a mess of our chances whereas the Aussies were far more clinical.

The discipline from the forwards remains an issue and our second row need to have a look in the mirror as both Hill and Itoje were guilty in that regard. They've got to be more savvy.
So you'd go with Farrell at 10 Porter 12 next week or bring more Leicester players in?


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:44 pm

Yoda wrote:We need to stop the stupid celebration at scrum time and the stupid shouting at the lineout. The silly hair pulling and crap like that just can't keep happening. We just failed to make the most of the good attacks we did start to generate. You could tell Nowell is still coming back from injury and big Joe for his size didn't influence the game. Two bits of magic from Arundel is something to get excited about.
It's a nudge to Jones surely though along with the games including NZ Ire that attack can win games?

And from the beeb: we didn't throw a punch...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:22 pm

So much change from Jones next week or same again? We probably should have won bit we should have been out of sight too.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Well got to watch it earlier than I thought but now just disappointed. Just didn't show any ambition to score until Arundell came on. Obviously the at that point looks so easy 2 tries, should have won easily. Massively disappointing loss. Should have won. Smith should be kicking and bad captaincy by Lawes.

He will be lucky to make the side next week. He was badly undercooked and I was surprised Eddie didn't drop Farrell into 10 use Porter at 12. The backs outside of Smith actually had decent ish games but their supply was badly lacking.

Thought Care played well but emptied his tank for the cause and Eddie left him out there too long before pulling the trigger for JVP. Care offered more direction than Randall has been offering so that's at least a step forward.

A game we should have won but we made a mess of our chances whereas the Aussies were far more clinical.

The discipline from the forwards remains an issue and our second row need to have a look in the mirror as both Hill and Itoje were guilty in that regard. They've got to be more savvy.
So you'd go with Farrell at 10 Porter 12 next week or bring more Leicester players in?

I think I'd probably go Dingwall at 12 if Smith is being moved to the bench. Dingwall has less physicality than Porter but he's a defensive leader and the type of player that ties a backline together. I'm torn over whether Smith needs to be dropped to the bench to focus the mind or get the warning it's coming if he doesn't shape up. It wasn't like watching the Smith we see in the Prem, his decisions were poor and his accuracy well off, not things I'd associate with him.

I think Arundell starting next weekend should be a given, whether it's Nowell or Cokanasiga to step out I don't know. Whichever I hope Porter gets a chance on the bench again, Eddie hesitating to refresh the team from the bench hurt us this week and Porter was left watching on when we could have used him.

Not sure what Leicester players we can bring in. Stuart was solid at TH so no need to bench him for Heyes. The lock pairing should work nicely if they can sort their discipline so makes sense to keep Chessum for impact (which worked well enough in this test). We don't know whether Randall was dropped or unavailable but I'd like to see JVP get another chance though as I've already said I thought Care did a good job and should be retaining the shirt. Steward will remain at 15 as I thought he was one of our better players bar the misread for the second try. I mean if Dan Kelly was fit I'd parachute him in at 12 immediately but sadly that's not an option.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:50 pm

I think the front row was OK and only in need of a double espresso not an overhaul.  Perhaps LCD over George, but that would be quibbling.  

The second row was poor, and whether or not Lawes wants to go back there he might have to.  In actuality, that would have been a perfect game for Launchbury (different discussion, different day).  Itoje has truckloads of credit in the bank, but had to pull on some of it after that performance.  Hill has no credit in the bank and needs to sit.  

The back row is fine with any combo of Lawes, Curry (hoping for an all's clear), Willis, Ludlum.

9-10-12:  I thought Care was good today.  But it seems this Smith-Farrell were both ungood and the partnership is either:
(a) a huge work in progress  
(b) a failure
But I doubt it gets sorted this month.  Only one, or none, plays.  Dingwall is the logical 12 to slip in.  Pair him with Marchant, who also needs to be involved more, and I think we will see a pretty competitive midfield.  

Back three is tough:  Steward is fine, but clearly needs to work on his acceleration.  Nowell seemed willing but only produced one good run.  Was strong defensively.  
Big Joe was quiet.  But it always seems whomever is brought in to take the Tuilagi hard yards role is always quiet.  And that raises different questions.  After a while it can't be all on the non-Tuilagi players.
Arundell's and the other try were garbage time tries, so they don't mean much to me.
But if you want to start Arundell you have my permission.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:15 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Arundell's and the other try were garbage time tries, so they don't mean much to me.
But if you want to start Arundell you have my permission.

Yeah I think Australia had taken their foot of the gas a bit but at the same time I don't think any self respecting international wants to have their pants pulled down by a rookie on debut. Arundell embarrassed three Aussies in quick succession. I'd say that's taking an opportunity and think he deserves a go on the back of it.

JVP, meh. It's good organisation of his forwards and then spotting a gap and taking it. He was like a meerkat at the back of the ruck so it is likely to have been something they'd spotted from the bench. Not enough game time to judge him on but liked the confidence he brought.

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Post by king_carlos Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:18 pm

I've been at work all day so haven't seen anything of it. My rugby nerd brain will force me to watch it in full out of curiosity of what was so pish but it'll be one of those watches that feels like punishment for liking sport by the sounds of things.

Was big Joe being used off his wing as a crash ball runner? If so it's just not what he's good at. Get him a one on one down the wing and he can break tackles, create off loads. Using him as a battering ram because of his size just wastes that though. Tigers did similar with Nadolo in his first season, kept running him at the fringes like a 9th forward. Then this year we started manufacturing one on ones for him in space and suddenly he was spectacular at times.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:36 pm

king_carlos wrote:I've been at work all day so haven't seen anything of it. My rugby nerd brain will force me to watch it in full out of curiosity of what was so pish but it'll be one of those watches that feels like punishment for liking sport by the sounds of things.

Was big Joe being used off his wing as a crash ball runner? If so it's just not what he's good at. Get him a one on one down the wing and he can break tackles, create off loads. Using him as a battering ram because of his size just wastes that though. Tigers did similar with Nadolo in his first season, kept running him at the fringes like a 9th forward. Then this year we started manufacturing one on ones for him in space and suddenly he was spectacular at times.
If you actually sit and watch this game from start to finish you will:
Be locked up in Bedlam hospital after going insane
Tell me everything I want to know about the night of the 15th.
Feel like Dustin Hoffman in the movie Marathon Man, "is it safe?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZayydR4DPs





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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:36 am

I'm quite amazed at the amount of videos on twitter at the incidents missed over yesterday's set of games. Barrett shoulder charging POM in the Ireland game and Hills 2 handed push to the face. I used to think players were stupid as the TMO would pick these up...but they were all asleep at the wheel. Hills performance yesterday is the main reason I see Ewels as a better choice.

I missed what was up with Curry, presumably he's a doubt for next week if he came off so early?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm quite amazed at the amount of videos on twitter at the incidents missed over yesterday's set of games. Barrett shoulder charging POM in the Ireland game and Hills 2 handed push to the face. I used to think players were stupid as the TMO would pick these up...but they were all asleep at the wheel. Hills performance yesterday is the main reason I see Ewels as a better choice.

I missed what was up with Curry, presumably he's a doubt for next week if he came off so early?

Woah now let's not get carried away and say things we don't mean. I'd have Launchbury, Tizard, Chessum or Isiekwe start with Itoje before we consider a Ewels recall.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:01 am

I'd have the first 2, maybe Chessum buy Hill is just not very good. I really hope he doesn't start next week. Also why did the director have to show that broken arm so many times?!

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Post by doctor_grey Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:14 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm quite amazed at the amount of videos on twitter at the incidents missed over yesterday's set of games. Barrett shoulder charging POM in the Ireland game and Hills 2 handed push to the face. I used to think players were stupid as the TMO would pick these up...but they were all asleep at the wheel. Hills performance yesterday is the main reason I see Ewels as a better choice.

I missed what was up with Curry, presumably he's a doubt for next week if he came off so early?
Off with an HIA.  He didn't come back on so it's safe to assume he failed his HIA eval.  I don't recall the commentators mentioning it, but I am sure they did at some point - I had the Aussie feed so not sure if you had the same broadcasting team as I had. If he indeed failed, I should be out for at least a week.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:24 am

12 days now. I'd have Willis straight in then.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:33 am

Agree.  Best choice and could have a big impact.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:48 am

tigertattie wrote:Hope the boy makes a speedy recovery Sad
It's always a bit surprising how we get things just in time and the risks of being even just 15 minutes late could have meant severe blood loss. But just in time: The teams were great, the fracture was clean and we stabilised the leg. In a few days when he recovers from the blood loss we can go back and safely fix the leg for the long haul. Seems a good kid, too, which always makes it better...

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Post by hugehandoff Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:17 am

Yoda wrote:We need to stop the stupid celebration at scrum time and the stupid shouting at the lineout. The silly hair pulling and crap like that just can't keep happening.
. We really have developed a nasty habit of over celebrating minor triumphs (a turnover, a scrum penalty etc) and I think a more humble England, especially in light of our results, would be most welcome. More action and less talk would be my advice.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:44 am

That's the latest in a long line of matches we lost, when we should have won. It's hard remember the last time England won a match we probably should have lost.

On top of the confusion over our gameplan, some of that must be down to on-field leadership, and poor use of the bench.

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Post by George Carlin Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:44 am

Duty281 wrote:Up to Wales and Scotland to salvage northern pride.
Whistle Sorry. Fried chocolate and existential despair will do that to you.
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Post by George Carlin Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:46 am

hugehandoff wrote:
Yoda wrote:We need to stop the stupid celebration at scrum time and the stupid shouting at the lineout. The silly hair pulling and crap like that just can't keep happening.
. We really have developed a nasty habit of over celebrating minor triumphs (a turnover, a scrum penalty etc) and I think a more humble England, especially in light of our results, would be most welcome. More action and less talk would be my advice.
Yep, agreed - I can't see Richard Hill or Dayglo even having done that. They just got on with winning the games instead.

I just look at that England pack and wonder if the balance is quite right.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:23 pm

Back row definitely isn't. Made worse when Curry went off.

Personally don't mind people celebrating small wins. The only thing re that that does is the patting opposition on the heads etc.

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Post by RiscaGame Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:01 pm

hugehandoff wrote:
Yoda wrote:We need to stop the stupid celebration at scrum time and the stupid shouting at the lineout. The silly hair pulling and crap like that just can't keep happening.
. We really have developed a nasty habit of over celebrating minor triumphs (a turnover, a scrum penalty etc) and I think a more humble England, especially in light of our results, would be most welcome. More action and less talk would be my advice.

I did hear there was a bit of whooping going on again. I get the make your own atmosphere thing to a point, but a lot of it seems way OTT.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd have the first 2, maybe Chessum buy Hill is just not very good. I really hope he doesn't start next week. Also why did the director have to show that broken arm so many times?!

Hill's looked a decent Prem level player for a while. Initially he looked out of his depth at this level but thought he showed up well in the AIs after touring with the Lions. Having missed a lot of the season with injury I was about surprised he was picked and he looked off the pace on Saturday. The stupid hair grabbing thing didn't help and he might still get cited.

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