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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 30 Jun 2022, 9:22 am

First topic message reminder :

sensisball wrote:
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?

In five starts and four sub appearances he's bagged five tries. One appearance and one try for England.

It's a bench lacking experience but it's the type of players we'd like to have as options come the world cup.

Ignore the front row that pretty much picked itself.

Chessum - covers lock and 6 highly mobile and physical, good lineout option and we've been desperate for a young lock to come through.

Ludlam - covers 8 and 7 which is what the bench needs, club captain so adds much needed leadership here.

JVP - no one likes the current 9 options for last season's Under 20 captain and player of the J6N gets a chance. Best kicking game of the three 9s on tour and likes to play high tempo.

Porter - covers every position in the backs outside of 9 and 10, could probably do a job on the flank as well. Eddie likes a versatility option as they very much help the overall squad come world cup so audition time for Guy.

Arundell - exciting young player, not ready yet but Eddie will be hoping some international game time might speed up his development. Unlikely starter but potential game changer off the bench, always handy to have one of those at a world cup. Porter's inclusion means Arundell won't have to go in early unless there's multiple injuries.

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Post by Yoda Sun 03 Jul 2022, 3:22 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:
Yoda wrote:We need to stop the stupid celebration at scrum time and the stupid shouting at the lineout. The silly hair pulling and crap like that just can't keep happening.
. We really have developed a nasty habit of over celebrating minor triumphs (a turnover, a scrum penalty etc) and I think a more humble England, especially in light of our results, would be most welcome. More action and less talk would be my advice.

I did hear there was a bit of whooping going on again. I get the make your own atmosphere thing to a point, but a lot of it seems way OTT.

I think over celebrating lacks class and just motivates teams against you. It also stops you thinking about the next step or action needed to score points. At the end of the match the only statistic worth anything is the score line. When I played as a half back I was always the miserable sod telling my forwards and outside backs to bloody concentrate and not go off guard until after the final whistle. Celebrating winning a scrum is a bit daft because that's your job. It's like expecting a round of applause when you've done some photocopying in the office. If you've secure a multimillion pound deal then pump the air and think you're the mutt's nuts.

On the next steps for England I think either Smith starts or Farrell but not both. We need a simplified tactic with someone running hard at 12 before we slip out the back. We need gas on the wings as lrz and Arundel demonstrated that there is no defence against out and out gas. Hill should be dropped and told to sort his Poopie out. I liked Ludlum when he came on but isn't as good at the breakdown work as Willis or curry.

I think it's going to really difficult to beat Australia now as this has got the monkey off their backs and they look like a side who have belief and a plan.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 03 Jul 2022, 3:32 pm

Not sure why Hill didn't see red for that hair pull.  Both of those morons should have been run.  That's Rugby from back in my day. And from an England perspective, he can't be trusted in big games, and should not suit up again.

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Post by RiscaGame Sun 03 Jul 2022, 3:41 pm

I’d honestly think Hill would show up very well internationally, due to the whole Exeter pack thing. I have never seen him play very well, tbf. Itoje is very good obviously, but I’m not a Hill fan at all.


Last edited by RiscaGame on Mon 04 Jul 2022, 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 03 Jul 2022, 8:08 pm

I dislike the whooping too, but on the other hand I also think we had years of having nice also rans in Lancaster and Robshaw.   Opposition fans liked/ respected those two, but still revelled and took the p$$ when we lost.

What we really need is a menacing dislikable presence who also forces the opposition to respect our pack, like Johnno.

Quiet menace, that is the way forward!
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Post by Recwatcher16 Sun 03 Jul 2022, 8:43 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Not sure why Hill didn't see red for that hair pull.  Both of those morons should have been run.  That's Rugby from back in my day.  And from an England perspective, he can't be trusted in big games, and should not suit up again.

I always find interpretations an interesting part of the game but If you watch the early stages of that maul, Hill got an elbow in the face from his opponent. Hill didnt immediately react but with further barging and he reached round his opponent and clearly grabbed his head and then hair - so perhaps Hill reacted to provocation. However a yellow and red was the correct verdict - there is no alternative for a clear head butt. Australia look like they are going to debate that with an appeal.

I like the look of Chessum but you do need a heavyweight lock next to Itoje and I don't see too many alternatives to Hill.

I have no doubt that new NZ ref will be allocated an England game in the future and pretty sure and put money on, he will go easier on future England rule transgressions.....

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 03 Jul 2022, 8:45 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I dislike the whooping too, but on the other hand I also think we had years of having nice also rans in Lancaster and Robshaw.   Opposition fans liked/ respected those two, but still revelled and took the p$$ when we lost.

What we really need is a menacing dislikable presence who also forces the opposition to respect our pack, like Johnno.

Quiet menace, that is the way forward!
Yes, the House of Lancaster and the choir boys. Then Eddie Jones installed Dylan Hartley as captain and tapped the keg and England won 16 or 17 straight games. If not about the beer, it most certainly is about leadership.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 03 Jul 2022, 8:49 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Not sure why Hill didn't see red for that hair pull.  Both of those morons should have been run.  That's Rugby from back in my day.  And from an England perspective, he can't be trusted in big games, and should not suit up again.

I always find interpretations an interesting part of the game but If you watch the early stages of that maul, Hill got an elbow in the face from his opponent. Hill didnt immediately react but with further barging and he reached round his opponent and clearly grabbed his head and then hair - so perhaps Hill reacted to provocation. However a yellow and red was the correct verdict - there is no alternative for a clear head butt.  Australia look like they are going to debate that with an appeal.

I like the look of Chessum but you do need a heavyweight lock next to Itoje and I don't see too many alternatives to Hill.

I have no doubt that new NZ ref will be allocated an England game in the future and pretty sure and put money on, he will go easier on future England rule  transgressions.....

I think he weighs more than Lawes, the Lawes/Itoje combination locked out the scrum enough to see off the Irish pack. Ollie Chessum must be closing in to the 19 stone mark as he's continued to bulk out during the season and I suspect the stats on the Tigers website were done sometime during pre season when he was 18 and a half. Hill is bigger but he's got start to showing some form.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 03 Jul 2022, 9:02 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Not sure why Hill didn't see red for that hair pull.  Both of those morons should have been run.  That's Rugby from back in my day.  And from an England perspective, he can't be trusted in big games, and should not suit up again.

I always find interpretations an interesting part of the game but If you watch the early stages of that maul, Hill got an elbow in the face from his opponent. Hill didnt immediately react but with further barging and he reached round his opponent and clearly grabbed his head and then hair - so perhaps Hill reacted to provocation. However a yellow and red was the correct verdict - there is no alternative for a clear head butt.  Australia look like they are going to debate that with an appeal.

I like the look of Chessum but you do need a heavyweight lock next to Itoje and I don't see too many alternatives to Hill.

I have no doubt that new NZ ref will be allocated an England game in the future and pretty sure and put money on, he will go easier on future England rule  transgressions.....
Sorry mate, but are you saying pulling hair is only a yellow? Cripe, it almost got me kicked out of school once.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 03 Jul 2022, 9:11 pm

Today's headlines:
The Times:  Unforgivably, England lacked the courage to go for the throat against reeling opponents
The Telegraph:  The charge sheet against Eddie Jones and England
The Telegraph:  England's last-quarter collapses prove they cannot think under pressure
The Guardian:  England stuck in identity crisis and slipping backwards under Eddie Jones
The Sun:  Katie Price shows off bikini body while relaxing on the beach in Thailand

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Post by Galted Sun 03 Jul 2022, 9:21 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Today's headlines:
The Times:  Unforgivably, England lacked the courage to go for the throat against reeling opponents
The Telegraph:  The charge sheet against Eddie Jones and England
The Telegraph:  England's last-quarter collapses prove they cannot think under pressure
The Guardian:  England stuck in identity crisis and slipping backwards under Eddie Jones
The Sun:  Katie Price shows off bikini body while relaxing on the beach in Thailand

Is she murdering people to stay in the headlines now?
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Post by doctor_grey Sun 03 Jul 2022, 10:39 pm

Galted wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Today's headlines:
The Times:  Unforgivably, England lacked the courage to go for the throat against reeling opponents
The Telegraph:  The charge sheet against Eddie Jones and England
The Telegraph:  England's last-quarter collapses prove they cannot think under pressure
The Guardian:  England stuck in identity crisis and slipping backwards under Eddie Jones
The Sun:  Katie Price shows off bikini body while relaxing on the beach in Thailand

Is she murdering people to stay in the headlines now?
More, more, more silicone, matey!

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 03 Jul 2022, 10:41 pm


The Guardian wrote:Eddie Jones to stick with England’s Smith-Farrell axis for Australia rematch
Well that shuts down a lot of the England Rugby conversation for the week.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 03 Jul 2022, 11:08 pm

Either the Smith-Farrell partnership with this structure will miraculously come good and Jones will look like a mad scientist once again. Or it will fail miserably and he will look like a muppet. I don't think we are going to get anything in-between now. They gone down the rabbit hole this far after all!

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Post by king_carlos Sun 03 Jul 2022, 11:24 pm

Sounds like Curry will be out with a HIA. Massive loss.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Isiekwe 6.Lawes 7.Underhill 8.Vunipola
9.Care 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Marchant 14.Arundell 15.Steward

16.LCD 17.Vunipola 18.Heyes 19.Chessum 20.Willis 21.JvP 22.Dingwall 23.Freeman

I think I'd probably go with something like that. See if some out and out pace on the wings can ignite something in this flailing new structure.

I've said it for a long while but second row is a massive issue. Itoje (poor game last week admittedly) has propped it up for a while but if he got injured it'd be laid bare. For all their strong club performances Hill and Isiekwe haven't shown it consistently in internationals. Ewels is a good Premiership player but nothing more. Chessum is talented but needs time. Launchbury has been a favourite of mine for a long time but I do honestly think the injuries have effected him - Nowell too sadly.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 04 Jul 2022, 1:13 am

If indeed a lot of the problem comes from the Smith-Farrell combo, then it doesn't really matter who is around them. To me, it's clear we have a leadership issue, a style of play issue, and a selection issue.

If Farrell is the past - and EJ might or might not think that - then why is he in the squad? If Smith is not up to snuff, then beside public acclaim, he is not up to snuff. I thought EJ was supposed to be ruthless. One does not need a doctorate in high physics to know the style of play that best suits each player is quite different. How can one team accommodate such different skill sets? It's almost as if one cancels out the other. And with the core of the attack self-neutralised, the attack fails.

And without a viable attack, what are the rest of the back line supposed to do? Is Marchant the right guy as one would expect with Smith? But maybe not off of Farrell. We don't know because we are in Limbo.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Jul 2022, 7:23 am

If be amazed if Smith and Farrell didn't start. Personally I'd drop Nowell for Arundell in the backs and bring Freeman onto the bench. Drop Hill Lawes to lock and Underhill and Willis in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Jul 2022, 8:08 am

Actually May should be available too depending on the impact of his covid. I'd have him and Arundell in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Jul 2022, 8:46 am

Confirmed that Curry is out of the tour and lying back to England.

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Post by Geordie Mon 04 Jul 2022, 8:56 am

Fly Earl over...

4 Itoje
5 Lawes / Chessum
6 Willis
7 Earl
8 Vunipola

Just bloody go for it,.

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Post by BamBam Mon 04 Jul 2022, 9:43 am

Curry going off made a huge difference in the second half. Itoje and Curry are our two irreplaceable players for me at the moment

I'd be looking to get Underhill and Willis starting, move Lawes to lock and drop Hill.

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Post by Margin_Walker Mon 04 Jul 2022, 9:54 am

I'd go for something like this. Lots of calls for Lawes at lock, but I'd be surprised. He just doesn't play there any more.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Willis 8.Vunipola
9.Care 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Marchant 14.Arundell 15.Steward

16.LCD 17.Vunipola 18.Heyes 19.Hill 20.Ludlum 21.JvP 22.Porter 23.Nowell

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Post by lostinwales Mon 04 Jul 2022, 10:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Confirmed that Curry is out of the tour and lying back to England.

So what is he really doing? (Sorry)

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 04 Jul 2022, 10:15 am

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Confirmed that Curry is out of the tour and lying back to England.

So what is he really doing? (Sorry)

He's heading back on a pedalo, should be ready for 29/30 season, if he avoids the sharks.
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Post by Cumbrian Mon 04 Jul 2022, 10:18 am

Margin_Walker wrote:I'd go for something like this. Lots of calls for Lawes at lock, but I'd be surprised. He just doesn't play there any more.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Willis 8.Vunipola
9.Care 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Marchant 14.Arundell 15.Steward

16.LCD 17.Vunipola 18.Heyes 19.Hill 20.Ludlum 21.JvP 22.Porter 23.Nowell

That is pretty much the starting team I would like to see too, maybe swap Nowell off the bench (he just looked so slow and sluggish) and replace him with Freeman.
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Post by hugehandoff Mon 04 Jul 2022, 10:22 am

If you could select your own England team, and not just predict Eddie's selection, and if everyone was fit, on form and available, then how different is it from Saturday's test team? This exercise is purely to judge how close or far we currently are from our ideal line up?

For me

Genge/Marler/Mako - I think Marler is still our best scrummager plus he is still an awesome player. Genge probably our no.1 but against SA , Ireland and France I would be tempted to start Joe. I am also very happy to see Mako back as we will need all 3 in the RWC. But Genge and Marler for me.
Cowan-Dickie
Sinckler
Launchbury
Itoje
Lawes
Billy V
Curry
Care
Farrell
May
Manu
Slade
Watson
Steward

Bench
Looseheads as above
George
Stuart
J.Hill
Underhill/Ludlam/Willis - happy with any of these tbh
JVP
Ford
Arundell

Just Sincks missing from the front row currently, but he does make a difference albeit I was impressed with Stuart. Launchbury for me is world class and a real heavyweight who can go toe to toe with SA and Fra. But he does weaken the line out so instead of Underhill starting I have opted for Lawes. No Youngs at 9 as wee need more pace. Farrell to start at 10 and Ford to back him up. No time to waste now and these 2 have the experience and the partnership to play together if required. Smith the backup. The never ending midfield problem is still best solved by Manu and Slade if Manu can ever regain fitness. The alternatives to this have just not worked. We need more pace and if May and Watson are able to return to full fitness then they still get the nod.
It is vital to try a few different options now and I hope that before the tour is over that JVP, Arundell and others get more of a chance. I feel sorry for Smith as if Manu was there it would give him his big 12 option and make life easier, but at least we are working out what does not work. A few changes overall that could really take us forward, even if it looks like reverting to our 2019 team!

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Post by Margin_Walker Mon 04 Jul 2022, 10:22 am

Cumbrian wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:I'd go for something like this. Lots of calls for Lawes at lock, but I'd be surprised. He just doesn't play there any more.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Willis 8.Vunipola
9.Care 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Marchant 14.Arundell 15.Steward

16.LCD 17.Vunipola 18.Heyes 19.Hill 20.Ludlum 21.JvP 22.Porter 23.Nowell

That is pretty much the starting team I would like to see too, maybe swap Nowell off the bench (he just looked so slow and sluggish) and replace him with Freeman.

Thought about Nowell on the bench a bit. I actually thought he did okay at the weekend (certainly made more of an impression than Cokanasiga). Whilst not the quickest these days, he's also a player that can come off the bench and beat tired defenders. Freeman's a decent prospect though, so not too precious.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 04 Jul 2022, 10:36 am

hugehandoff wrote:If you could select your own England team, and not just predict Eddie's selection, and if everyone was fit, on form and available, then how different is it from Saturday's test team? This exercise is purely to judge how close or far we currently are from our ideal line up?

For me

Genge/Marler/Mako - I think Marler is still our best scrummager plus he is still an awesome player. Genge probably our no.1 but against SA , Ireland and France I would be tempted to start Joe. I am also very happy to see Mako back as we will need all 3 in the RWC. But Genge and Marler for me.
Cowan-Dickie
Sinckler
Launchbury
Itoje
Lawes
Billy V
Curry
Care
Farrell
May
Manu
Slade
Watson
Steward

Bench
Looseheads as above
George
Stuart
J.Hill
Underhill/Ludlam/Willis - happy with any of these tbh
JVP
Ford
Arundell

Just Sincks missing from the front row currently, but he does make a difference albeit I was impressed with Stuart. Launchbury for me is world class and a real heavyweight who can go toe to toe with SA and Fra. But he does weaken the line out so instead of Underhill starting I have opted for Lawes. No Youngs at 9 as wee need more pace. Farrell to start at 10 and Ford to back him up. No time to waste now and these 2 have the experience and the partnership to play together if required. Smith the backup. The never ending midfield problem is still best solved by Manu and Slade if Manu can ever regain fitness. The alternatives to this have just not worked. We need more pace and if May and Watson are able to return to full fitness then they still get the nod.
It is vital to try a few different options now and I hope that before the tour is over that JVP, Arundell and others get more of a chance. I feel sorry for Smith as if Manu was there it would give him his big 12 option and make life easier, but at least we are working out what does not work. A few changes overall that could really take us forward, even if it looks like reverting to our 2019 team!


01. Joe Marler
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie
03. Kyle Sinckler
04. Joe Launchbury
05. Maro Itoje
06. Jack Willis
07. Tom Curry
08. Alex Dombrandt

09. Raffi Quirke
10. George Ford

11. Jonny May
12. Manu Tuilagi
13. Joe Marchant
14. Anthony Watson
15. Freddie Steward

16. Jamie George
17. Ellis Genge
18. Dan Cole/ Will Stuart/ Joe Heyes
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Sam Underhill
21. JVP
22. Marcus Smith
23. Henry Arundell

Probably not great in the lineout, and could be a bit knackered if Ford/ Tuilagi got injured, but that is why Eddie is paid the big bucks and I am not!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Jul 2022, 10:47 am

Genge LCD Sinckler
Itoje Launchbury
Willis Curry
Dombrandt

Mitchell Smith
May Farrell Yulaig Watson Steward

Marler George Stuart Lawes Underhill Quirke Slade maybe for cover, Arundell probably.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 04 Jul 2022, 10:58 am

There is a lot of love for Launchbury, and he has been terrific at times over the years, but is he still as good?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:06 am

Still better than the others. Not as good as he was.

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Post by Geordie Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:07 am

lostinwales wrote:There is a lot of love for Launchbury, and he has been terrific at times over the years, but is he still as good?

Nope

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:08 am

Growing love for Arundell already too! I felt it may have been a touch too early for him to excel but did I read that he made the most metres of any England player?

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Post by Geordie Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:20 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Growing love for Arundell already too! I felt it may have been a touch too early for him to excel but did I read that he made the most metres of any England player?

Problem is , he wont be a surprise to the Aussies now, so we'll see how he goes when they give him the attention that they will give him.

Hes a big hope though, and i hope Eddie doesnt break the lad.

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Post by Geordie Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:23 am

i agree with the coments above...Lock is a big concern now.

So many average lumps. At least this might be the last tour they go on, if Chessum etc can start to push ahead.

Hopefully the likes of Alfie Bell etc can also follow Chessums elevation with quick progression in to the wasps side.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:28 am

doctor_grey wrote:If indeed a lot of the problem comes from the Smith-Farrell combo, then it doesn't really matter who is around them.  To me, it's clear we have a leadership issue, a style of play issue, and a selection issue.  

If Farrell is the past - and EJ might or might not think that - then why is he in the squad?  If Smith is not up to snuff, then beside public acclaim, he is not up to snuff.  I thought EJ was supposed to be ruthless.  One does not need a doctorate in high physics to know the style of play that best suits each player is quite different.  How can one team accommodate such different skill sets?  It's almost as if one cancels out the other.   And with the core of the attack self-neutralised, the attack fails.  

And without a viable attack, what are the rest of the back line supposed to do?  Is Marchant the right guy as one would expect with Smith?  But maybe not off of Farrell.  We don't know because we are in Limbo.  

 

Smith and Farrell is a major problem, well Smith and Slade was a major problem in the 6N. Smith and Atkinson didn't work Vs the Baabaas either. Is the problem then that Smith isn't tactically flexible? It's a question for the next two games really. If it looks like he isn't do we change the system for the AIs or do we revert to Ford a man who's good at adapting to a system?

In the ideal world Smith refinds some form internationally and blows Australia away. If he was at his normal levels of accuracy at the weekend we'd have slaughtered Australia and he'd be the media darling golden boy as normal and he'd have earned the praise.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:30 am

Would be odd to drop our best fly half.

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Post by Geordie Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:33 am

Or look at Finn Smith as the next messiah?

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Post by lostinwales Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:34 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:If indeed a lot of the problem comes from the Smith-Farrell combo, then it doesn't really matter who is around them.  To me, it's clear we have a leadership issue, a style of play issue, and a selection issue.  

If Farrell is the past - and EJ might or might not think that - then why is he in the squad?  If Smith is not up to snuff, then beside public acclaim, he is not up to snuff.  I thought EJ was supposed to be ruthless.  One does not need a doctorate in high physics to know the style of play that best suits each player is quite different.  How can one team accommodate such different skill sets?  It's almost as if one cancels out the other.   And with the core of the attack self-neutralised, the attack fails.  

And without a viable attack, what are the rest of the back line supposed to do?  Is Marchant the right guy as one would expect with Smith?  But maybe not off of Farrell.  We don't know because we are in Limbo.  

 

Smith and Farrell is a major problem, well Smith and Slade was a major problem in the 6N. Smith and Atkinson didn't work Vs the Baabaas either. Is the problem then that Smith isn't tactically flexible? It's a question for the next two games really. If it looks like he isn't do we change the system for the AIs or do we revert to Ford a man who's good at adapting to a system?

In the ideal world Smith refinds some form internationally and blows Australia away. If he was at his normal levels of accuracy at the weekend we'd have slaughtered Australia and he'd be the media darling golden boy as normal and he'd have earned the praise.

Atkinson is an (international) donkey. Farrell is superb at some things but doesn't offer balance and we have talked about him a great deal. Slade - that is a good question. I do think it will take time for someone to get on the same wavelength as Smith but he's well worth persevering with.

As for Arundell I am concerned about how they will test his defense, and about the backlash when he doesn't make 80 metres every time he gets the ball, but I think he'll be fine.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:40 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Or look at Finn Smith as the next messiah?

I am not seeing it yet. I know the boy gets some terrific write ups and its not easy playing for Worcester, but he seems to be carrying a huge weight on his shoulders. When Smith clicks there is a real joy about how he plays.

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Post by Geordie Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:45 am

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Or look at Finn Smith as the next messiah?

I am not seeing it yet. I know the boy gets some terrific write ups and its not easy playing for Worcester, but he seems to be carrying a huge weight on his shoulders. When Smith clicks there is a real joy about how he plays.

Ah i was just being flippant.

Smith will come good. Will just take a bit of time with Farrell....

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 04 Jul 2022, 11:57 am

Billy Vunipola was all right at the weekend, and perhaps a bit unlucky to yet a yellow card. Courtney Lawes also had a solid, if unremarkable game. However, I do wonder whether a back row with both of them is uncompetitive at the breakdown.

When Lancaster started Lawes on the flank against France in 2013, he had Tom Wood at number eight and we got the win. In 2018, Lawes started at blindside alongside Robshaw and Sam Simmonds and we got a comfortable win against Italy, and a close one against Wales. A couple of weeks later, when Nathan Hughes joined Lawes and Robshaw in the backrow, we got mugged by Scotland and lost to France.

Hughes is much closer in style to Vunipola. Playing Lawes on the flank seems to work best when he's teamed with a pair of workhorses in the backrow. Robshaw/Wood, Robshaw/Simmonds, and Curry/Underhill have been a better complement. Lawes also look all right alongside Curry and Conan for the Lions.

Perhaps Jones knew that, and hoped Nowell might do his quasi-flanker work at the breakdown.


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Post by Geordie Mon 04 Jul 2022, 12:05 pm

SO is it time to move away from lawes at 6

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Post by BamBam Mon 04 Jul 2022, 12:14 pm

I’d say so, but gives us the issue of no 3rd jumper when Billy is at 8, unless Willis / Underhill can do it

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Post by hugehandoff Mon 04 Jul 2022, 12:15 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:SO is it time to move away from lawes at 6
we went there after the RWC final loss when Eddie felt we were underpowered with Lawes in the 2nd row and SA had a big lump at 6. That appears to have dictated a lot of thinking since. That is why I like Launchbury as he is a big and strong and class player.

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Post by Geordie Mon 04 Jul 2022, 12:19 pm

BamBam wrote:I’d say so, but gives us the issue of no 3rd jumper when Billy is at 8, unless Willis / Underhill can do it

Ted HIll at 8 will solve that problem

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Post by Geordie Mon 04 Jul 2022, 12:20 pm

hugehandoff wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:SO is it time to move away from lawes at 6
we went there after the RWC final loss when Eddie felt we were underpowered with Lawes in the 2nd row and SA had a big lump at 6. That appears to have dictated a lot of thinking since. That is why I like Launchbury as he is a big and strong and class player.

But do you not think injuries have taken its toll and hes not quite that player any more.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Jul 2022, 12:26 pm

Willis jumps. How often do we even use a third jumper?

Who are your ideal locks at the moment Geordie?

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Post by BamBam Mon 04 Jul 2022, 12:32 pm

Lawes takes plenty but I guess it depends on whether you’d consider him the 3rd jumper! I’d like to see the locks take 80% of the throws at least, and rely on timing rather than needing the 3rd option, but not sure how realistic that is

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Post by Geordie Mon 04 Jul 2022, 12:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Willis jumps. How often do we even use a third jumper?

Who are your ideal locks at the moment Geordie?

It changes every week.

Im very hopeful of Ollie Chessum though. I will also be watching Hugh Tizzards development closely.

I know its no secret i like a monster in that engine room...but im also not stupid, i do understand that monsters are quite an exception to the rules these days as locks are more athletic all action.

Bring back the days of Norm Hadley etc Very Happy

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 04 Jul 2022, 12:43 pm

hugehandoff wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:SO is it time to move away from lawes at 6
we went there after the RWC final loss when Eddie felt we were underpowered with Lawes in the 2nd row and SA had a big lump at 6. That appears to have dictated a lot of thinking since. That is why I like Launchbury as he is a big and strong and class player.

He is a classy player but not the best lineout jumper. Might still leave England wanting another quality jumper in the backrow.

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