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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 20 Mar 2022, 5:50 pm

A few things whirling around my head and most start with the fact that Eddie is likely to remain in charge. There are probably a lack of available alternatives and the RFU won't want to fork out more money. Therefore, he is likely to remain in charge until the RWC 2023 is done. Bearing that in mind what are the positives and negatives?

Positives
We have some decent forwards for sure and the set piece should be fine. Underhill was terrific yesterday and I think a return to Curry and Underhill playing around a big 8 would be very handy. Dombrandt should be that man.
Our defence is excellent and the team spirit is clearly there.
We have loads of quality players who can hopefully return to fitness and form and add to the mix. All countries lose players and of course we have more resources than anyone bar France, but we will no doubt look completely different if Launchbury, Hill, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Manu, May, Watson, Cockanasiga, Farrell are all fit and firing.
We have some foundations to build on and it is not Eddie's fault that we have not had Manu, or a decent replacement, available to add some power to our midfield.
There is enough time to fix many of these issues.

Negatives
Inconsistent selection
Inconsistent tactics and coaching team (too many coaching changes). Taking over from Lancaster Eddie was very clear on what to do. Restore England's traditional strengths in the set piece, defence and back it up with good kicking. Now we are totally confused as what we are trying to do.
The whole thing about playing players not in their best positions
Everyone is bored with Eddie's comments - we need less of him

Aus Tour
What a statement he made by winning 3-0 last time post a grand slam. Ruthless in taking off Burrell after 25 minutes. And they were missing Manu then as well and ended up with Ford, Farrell and Joseph so if we assume that Manu is unavailable then there is still hope. But we need players in their correct position and we need some consistency. Considering we don't have too many options at 12 and Slade is not really working out should we revert to Farrell? Not exactly a running beast, but at least he will be fresh and might just add some toughness. I would love to see Youngs left behind and to back 2 of our younger 9s. Genge, Dombrandt, Smith, Steward etc all need exposure to a tough away series.

Autumn
Based purely on form this is now the time to select the 23 Eddie sees as our strongest RWC team. All bets are off now and if a Mako or Bill V are playing well and showing the form and hunger to return then why not consider them. We might need then in the RWC group even if they are back ups to the regular starters. So maybe give them a game to see where they are? And then hopefully we can enjoy some consistent selection allied with a revamped game plan.

Anyone else hopeful that Eddie can resurrect the team and our RWC ambitions?

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 20 Mar 2022, 6:04 pm

I do believe the RFU have given the support to EJ and are ok with what he is trying to achieve, building a team squad for the RWC 2023

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 20 Mar 2022, 7:26 pm

Holding off on my own opinions about players, tactics and the overall state of the national team, here is a excerpt from the first few paragraphs from a column in today's Telegraph, with a little emphasis from me.  Interesting because it is really about the management from RFU, afterwards quote from the RFU:  

 How has it come to this? That the Six Nations is nothing more to Eddie Jones than a development vehicle for the World Cup. That an England attack, which yielded three tries in just four games outside of Italy, can be described as “very good”. That there can be so much gushing over such rank mediocrity.

For Jones to hail his team’s progress and development as if it was they rather than France who won the grand slam is pure gaslighting. Yet the Rugby Football Union are fully in thrall to the cult of Eddie, citing “strong positive steps” and “solid progress” after three losses. Pass the Kool Aid. A third-place finish is a fig leaf which does nothing to spare the indignity of another two-win campaign.  

Of course the spotlight is on Jones but the Rugby Football Union chief executive Bill Sweeney needs to step out of the shadows from where he has been hiding. Twelve months ago, Sweeney promised a “brutally honest” debrief of England’s fifth place finish. The ensuing report, compiled by a panel of anonymous ‘experts’, delivered not a single word of censure for Jones. Now the RFU have abandoned any pretence at subjecting Jones to any kind of accountability.


Excerpts from today's Guardian, more psychobabble:
The Rugby Football Union has leapt to the defence of Eddie Jones, insisting the under-fire England head coach has the governing body’s full support and making the remarkable claim it is “encouraged by the solid progress” despite another highly disappointing Six Nations campaign.

As was the case last year, the debrief will be led by the RFU’s advisory panel which includes Sweeney, Conor O’Shea, the director of performance, and previous England players and coaches, whom the union refuses to name. Last year the review lamented a “suboptimal” campaign and listed a number of excuses for England’s poor performance but Jones emerged blameless.

...an RFU spokesperson said: “Eddie Jones is building a new England team and against a clear strategy we are encouraged by the solid progress the team has made during this Six Nations campaign. The RFU continues to fully support Eddie, the coaching team and players and we are excited about the summer tour and the progress to rebuild a winning England team.


In the real world that would mean if England continues to struggle, the management of the RFU will resign en masse...

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Post by Big Sun 20 Mar 2022, 8:18 pm

hugehandoff - I hope Eddie Jones can resurrect the team, and he has had good success in the past. But, I don't see how this 6 Nations has in any way been a stepping stone to greater things. Whatever he has been trying to do, my impression is that he needs to stop trying it.

doctor_grey - I completely support looking at what's going on above Jones. Whatever you or I think of the tactics, I have been horrified by some of his side projects. Writing a book in which he criticises current players is the sort of thing I would expect to get me sacked if I did it about my peers at work, and it is the sort of thing that has been protected against by my contracts as a professional (i.e. I have been obliged to agree extra work with my employers to ensure it doesn't clash with or affect my ability to do the job, and also to clear any public facing work with HR). Either that stuff was agreed or they had a very leaky contract - whichever it is, it is not near good enough.

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Post by Yoda Sun 20 Mar 2022, 9:00 pm

Rfu trying to save face. I could understand our poor performance if we didn't have some decent talent to choose from. By that I mean lack of attacking prowess or basic ability to move the ball quickly and in the tight not necessarily wins etc. I think most of us were expecting a couple of losses but with an idea on where we are heading but that got lost very quickly from the promising autumn internationals. Blooding fast active 9's to service Smith who clearly need a hard running option in midfield. The next generation wingers who should have had the opportunity to show what they can do.

For the first time in six years I can't fathom what Jones is trying to do.😔

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Post by lostinwales Sun 20 Mar 2022, 9:59 pm

In other news Arundell did it again.

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Post by Margin_Walker Sun 20 Mar 2022, 10:09 pm

They should absolutely take Arundell on tour.

He's not the finished article and will make the odd error here and there. However, I've seen him play 6 or 7 games now for LI or the U20s and he's done something genuinely absurd (in a good way) in every one. He's so hard for defences to cope with if he gets the ball in any kind of space.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 20 Mar 2022, 11:05 pm

Warren Gatland will shake things up and get you back to winning ways.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 20 Mar 2022, 11:08 pm

Australia away in the Summer is not the place to trial Too many kids.

It's the place to really gel THE team and fix the one or two issues...ie 12 (Look at Kelly and Ojomoh)

Eddie will be praying that Farrell, May,Watson, are back, maybe that Cockasaniga finds form and fitness...and the likes of Curry and Underhill stay fit...etc etc....

Jack Willis being fit and on form might be a huge bonus also....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Mar 2022, 6:32 am

Depends what is meant by kids and too many! Injury will deal the cards initially but I would want to see us emerging from the tour with a better view on 11 12 14 in the theory that the missing guys aren't back or are at least interchanged with fresher players. I'd also like to see Chessum and Willis get plenty of time.

And also 9 of course. I'd still want to see the likes of Randall, Quirke, Mitchell and van Poortvliet on the pitch. Youngs should be dropped now and disappear.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 21 Mar 2022, 6:43 am

Eddie to leave for me.

- Too loyal to players who clearly aren't good enough (Youngs, Ewels)
- He seems utterly lost as what to do with the backline (Ignores wingers, baffling selections)
- Wasting of talent (Ideal opportunity to introduce Barbeary, OHC, Radwan etc....we play Furbank)
- Style of play has went backwards
- His arrogance

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 21 Mar 2022, 6:44 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Warren Gatland will shake things up and get you back to winning ways.

I'd take Gatland.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Mar 2022, 7:53 am

I'd take Jones for the next 50 years ahead of Gatland.

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Post by Big Mon 21 Mar 2022, 8:18 am

It isn't going to happen, but I'd take Gatland at this point. Not least because he might persuade his mate Edwards to come as soon as his current contract is at an end.

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Post by mountain man Mon 21 Mar 2022, 8:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd take Jones for the next 50 years ahead of Gatland.

Same here. If we think rugby under Jones not great, imagine Warrenball 3.0.

Likewise wouldn't want Eramus, toxic.

Anyway, Jones going nowhere like it or not.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 21 Mar 2022, 8:33 am

lostinwales wrote:In other news Arundell did it again.

He's a very special attacking player. Not sure he's ready to play fullback internationally but could well make a start on the wing and then drop deeper once his experience has increased. Scored a try from nowhere for the under 20 last night but also threw a pass to no one from a restart with only 3 minutes on the clock which was a bad error and probably cost England a meaningful chance if getting upfield. Vs Tigers in the league he looked lethal when he got the ball but a non-tackle on Nadolo (maybe can't blame him to much for that) and messing up a two on one cost LI 14 points.

He's exactly the kind of player you'd say is worth one of Eddie's apprentice spots, iron out the creases and he's going to rip it up.

I'd hope this tour sees us rest the key guys who were also Lions last summer. Itoje, Lawes and Curry should all stay home and get a full pre season in. Maybe Sinckler and LCD as well. 

A squad of something like;

1. Genge, Marler, Rodd
2. George, Blamire, Dolly
3. Stuart, Heyes, Collier
4. Hill, Launchbury
5. Isiekwe, Chessum
6. Martin, Hill
7. Ludlum, Willis
8. Dombrandt, Simmonds
9. Quirke, Mitchell
10. Smith, Farrell
11. May, Nowell
12. Kelly, Ojomoh
13. Slade, Marchant
14. Radwan, Arundell
15. Steward, Malins

Leaves one more spot open for a wild card or third scrum half.

Enough experience to bit be turned over but key players get a rare pre season and there's opportunities to get experience into positions where we need it to give the squad more competition.

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Post by mountain man Mon 21 Mar 2022, 8:40 am

Sorry but Farrell at 10? Never again. 12 yes but not 10. Back to dark ages.

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Post by Big Mon 21 Mar 2022, 8:47 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I'd hope this tour sees us rest the key guys who were also Lions last summer. Itoje, Lawes and Curry should all stay home and get a full pre season in.


I'm all in favour of not overplaying people, and often I might agree. But Itoje played very little rugby earlier on in the Lions season given Sarries demotion and generally lack of Championship games, so I'm not sure he needs resting.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Mar 2022, 8:54 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:In other news Arundell did it again.

He's a very special attacking player. Not sure he's ready to play fullback internationally but could well make a start on the wing and then drop deeper once his experience has increased. Scored a try from nowhere for the under 20 last night but also threw a pass to no one from a restart with only 3 minutes on the clock which was a bad error and probably cost England a meaningful chance if getting upfield. Vs Tigers in the league he looked lethal when he got the ball but a non-tackle on Nadolo (maybe can't blame him to much for that) and messing up a two on one cost LI 14 points.

He's exactly the kind of player you'd say is worth one of Eddie's apprentice spots, iron out the creases and he's going to rip it up.

I'd hope this tour sees us rest the key guys who were also Lions last summer. Itoje, Lawes and Curry should all stay home and get a full pre season in. Maybe Sinckler and LCD as well. 

A squad of something like;

1. Genge, Marler, Rodd
2. George, Blamire, Dolly
3. Stuart, Heyes, Collier
4. Hill, Launchbury
5. Isiekwe, Chessum
6. Martin, Hill
7. Ludlum, Willis
8. Dombrandt, Simmonds
9. Quirke, Mitchell
10. Smith, Farrell
11. May, Nowell
12. Kelly, Ojomoh
13. Slade, Marchant
14. Radwan, Arundell
15. Steward, Malins

Leaves one more spot open for a wild card or third scrum half.

Enough experience to bit be turned over but key players get a rare pre season and there's opportunities to get experience into positions where we need it to give the squad more competition.
Like the idea overall but I'd want to see Hassell-Collins and Lynagh in there. Drop nowell and Malins for me.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 21 Mar 2022, 9:10 am

Arundell is way too quick to be one of Eddie's back 3 players, will never happen.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 21 Mar 2022, 9:19 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends what is meant by kids and too many! Injury will deal the cards initially but I would want to see us emerging from the tour with a better view on 11 12 14 in the theory that the missing guys aren't back or are at least interchanged with fresher players. I'd also like to see Chessum and Willis get plenty of time.

And also 9 of course. I'd still want to see the likes of Randall, Quirke, Mitchell and van Poortvliet on the pitch. Youngs should be dropped now and disappear.

I agree...which is why Kelly and Ojomoh must be looked at.

As to the wings....how we end up with Steward (brilliant though he was) and Nowell on the wings...when we have the likes of Radwan, Sleightholme, Thorley, OHC, Loader, etc etc...

For me Steward is just a class act and will get better and better.

i agree on Chessum...he needs to be in the squad without a question.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 21 Mar 2022, 9:32 am

Steward has been very steady but he needs a back 3 building around him to help him.

Eddie just seems to have lost the plot for me, he seems to thrive on annoying the fans with his bizarre selections. It's almost like he's on some kind of ego trip.

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Post by mountain man Mon 21 Mar 2022, 9:39 am

As to the wings....how we end up with Steward (brilliant though he was) and Nowell on the wings...when we have the likes of Radwan, Sleightholme, Thorley, OHC, Loader, etc etc...

This.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 21 Mar 2022, 9:42 am

Is a return to Farrell, with whom England finished fifth in the last 6 nations, really a panacea for England's poor results?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Mar 2022, 9:42 am

I have some sympathy in the fact he will rate who he rates. He's a huge fan of Furbank so he picks him. I think I know why, in that he's a quick counter attacker, nice pass sees the game well. For me he doesn't have the mindset of an international though. But he has his backers on here.
Same for Youngs.
Same for Farrell. Etc etc.

My worry is that if Jones sees the 6Ns as developmental or a must win his direction of travel still seems like its rooted around SA. Win the ball, kick it away and compete. Does not make the most of the players we have in the backline (or at least available) and even the players there don't seem to suit the tactics the best.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 21 Mar 2022, 10:15 am

doctor_grey wrote:Is a return to Farrell, with whom England finished fifth in the last 6 nations, really a panacea for England's poor results?

We shouldnt be looking to Farrell as the saviour when we have Kelly and Ojomoh who should be looked at...AND just behind them...a crop of 12s coming through.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 21 Mar 2022, 10:16 am

PS wehave to be fair and Jones has been unlucky with injuries....

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Post by Big Mon 21 Mar 2022, 10:18 am

doctor_grey wrote:Is a return to Farrell, with whom England finished fifth in the last 6 nations, really a panacea for England's poor results?

Also 5th in 2018 - but then won three times with him mostly there, plus numerous other big wins. Which suggests Farrell at 12 is not a make or break issue...

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Post by mountain man Mon 21 Mar 2022, 10:40 am

Farrell definitely not answer to all of England ills but given how reluctant Jones is to pick a 12 then a fit and on form Farrell would at least be picked and surely be better than Slade in that position. Only as a 12 though, never again as 10.
So, in absence of Manu and I think we have to disregard him until proved otherwise then Farrell in at 12 with some real pace on wings be a start.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 21 Mar 2022, 10:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd take Jones for the next 50 years ahead of Gatland.

Rumoured to be a done deal! Wink

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 21 Mar 2022, 10:58 am

It is difficult to know how to approach the Australia tour. On the one hand we have only won two games this year, it would be a bit of a disaster if we took a completely green team and got beat in all three games. I’d say the Wallabies will be smelling weakness and looking to redress some of the more recent results. On the other hand, we can’t keep flogging players like Itoje and we need to learn how to play without them (and still hopefully win!).

To be honest I expect Eddie will take as close to a full-strength squad as he can, with injuries and withdrawals (e.g. will Marler travel?) accounting for any changes. It will be interesting to see how many of the younger squad players that Eddie has called up recently will go on tour.

On a positive note, there are some genuinely exciting players that could get a game this summer (Barbeary, Willis and Martin spring to mind). I think I would like to see Arundell go too, he seems to be a player that can make something out of nothing and with the way England's backline has been functioning, that might be a perquisite for success!
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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 21 Mar 2022, 11:03 am

Cumbrian wrote:It is difficult to know how to approach the Australia tour.  On the one hand we have only won two games this year, it would be a bit of a disaster if we took a completely green team and got beat in all three games.   I’d say the Wallabies will be smelling weakness and looking to redress some of the more recent results.   On the other hand, we can’t keep flogging players like Itoje and we need to learn how to play without them (and still hopefully win!).

To be honest I expect Eddie will take as close to a full-strength squad as he can, with injuries and withdrawals (e.g. will Marler travel?) accounting for any changes. It will be interesting to see how many of the younger squad players that Eddie has called up recently will go on tour.

On a positive note, there are some genuinely exciting players that could get a game this summer (Barbeary, Willis and Martin spring to mind).  I think I would like to see Arundell go too, he seems to be a player that can make something out of nothing and with the way England's backline has been functioning, that might be a perquisite for success!

Agree he's take the strongest squad he can.

Problem with Arundel is that he has many weaknesses aswell at the moment. So if Eddie wont choose Radwan for that reason...he isnt likely to choose Arundel....

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Post by sensisball Mon 21 Mar 2022, 11:25 am

Last summer France left around a dozen of their 6 N's squad at home when they went to Australia. Les Bleus managed their first win in Oz for around 25 years and were competitive in their two losses.
Jaminet was blooded, who was still playing Pro 2 rugby with Perpignan at the time. He looked to the manor born in all three test matches. He then went on to have a stellar autumn international series and played a huge part in France's grand slam, being excellent from the tee as well as under the high ball.
Do England not have similar strength in depth as the French?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 21 Mar 2022, 11:34 am

mountain man wrote:Sorry but Farrell at 10? Never again. 12 yes but not 10. Back to dark ages.

Let's be realistic Smith will play 10. Farrell is the bench cover 10/12. If the young guns are struggling or looking rudderless then he can come on at 12 and steady the ship but as disappointing as it would be also cover for injury to Smith.

Ford is a superior 10 to Farrell but as seen this 6N won't be used by Eddie even if England might benefit from it. The Scotland game scarred his thinking. So no point taking Ford as he'll only ever cover 10 and not be used.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Mar 2022, 11:35 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd take Jones for the next 50 years ahead of Gatland.

Rumoured to be a done deal! Wink
Lol. Like Heyes for Wales right. Right?

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 21 Mar 2022, 11:46 am

sensisball wrote:Last summer France left around a dozen of their 6 N's squad at home when they went to Australia. Les Bleus managed their first win in Oz for around 25 years and were competitive in their two losses.
Jaminet was blooded, who was still playing Pro 2 rugby with Perpignan at the time. He looked to the manor born in all three test matches. He then went on to have a stellar autumn international series and played a huge part in France's grand slam, being excellent from the tee as well as under the high ball.
Do England not have similar strength in depth as the French?

There is very good depth in certain positions, but the cupboard is a bit bare in others. For instance in the back-row we could lose all of the current incumbents and still be able to put a very competitive unit out. At half back we are now seeing quite a few youngs 9s troubling the selectors, there are also a number of very good young 10s taking their chances for the clubs. We're not as strong at lock as we were, but we could still put out a good paring and have promising youngsters to back them up. They only places we are genuinely weak are in the centres and potentially at prop (if there are a few injuries). There are arguments to say that we should be giving some of out younger centres a run out anyway though.


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Post by Northgrill Mon 21 Mar 2022, 11:57 am

I might get it in the neck for this but I wasn’t too impressed with Marcus over the 6N, aside from his goal kicking which was excellent. He takes the ball too deep, crabs across the pitch and the shovels the ball out to his centres who tend to get man and ball. He didn’t create much space for them at all over the tournament (his main job as a playmaker).

Defensively we have to hide him in our defensive line which means he’s on the wing if we get turnover ball which isn’t ideal. Lovely evasive runner and nice passer. Would probably make a quality 9. Very talented player but not sure if I want us to building our whole gameplan around him at this level.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 21 Mar 2022, 12:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:In other news Arundell did it again.

He's a very special attacking player. Not sure he's ready to play fullback internationally but could well make a start on the wing and then drop deeper once his experience has increased. Scored a try from nowhere for the under 20 last night but also threw a pass to no one from a restart with only 3 minutes on the clock which was a bad error and probably cost England a meaningful chance if getting upfield. Vs Tigers in the league he looked lethal when he got the ball but a non-tackle on Nadolo (maybe can't blame him to much for that) and messing up a two on one cost LI 14 points.

He's exactly the kind of player you'd say is worth one of Eddie's apprentice spots, iron out the creases and he's going to rip it up.

I'd hope this tour sees us rest the key guys who were also Lions last summer. Itoje, Lawes and Curry should all stay home and get a full pre season in. Maybe Sinckler and LCD as well. 

A squad of something like;

1. Genge, Marler, Rodd
2. George, Blamire, Dolly
3. Stuart, Heyes, Collier
4. Hill, Launchbury
5. Isiekwe, Chessum
6. Martin, Hill
7. Ludlum, Willis
8. Dombrandt, Simmonds
9. Quirke, Mitchell
10. Smith, Farrell
11. May, Nowell
12. Kelly, Ojomoh
13. Slade, Marchant
14. Radwan, Arundell
15. Steward, Malins

Leaves one more spot open for a wild card or third scrum half.

Enough experience to bit be turned over but key players get a rare pre season and there's opportunities to get experience into positions where we need it to give the squad more competition.
Like the idea overall but I'd want to see Hassell-Collins and Lynagh in there. Drop nowell and Malins for me.

Taking Lynagh on a tour of Australia, that would be very Eddie. Prime wind up material.

If you drop Nowell and Malins the only 15 cover is Arundell and he isn't ready for that yet. We'd need to take one or replace one of OHC or Lynagh with someone like Freeman.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 21 Mar 2022, 12:27 pm

Northgrill wrote:I might get it in the neck for this but I wasn’t too impressed with Marcus over the 6N, aside from his goal kicking which was excellent. He takes the ball too deep, crabs across the pitch and the shovels the ball out to his centres who tend to get man and ball. He didn’t create much space for them at all over the tournament (his main job as a playmaker).

Defensively we have to hide him in our defensive line which means he’s on the wing if we get turnover ball which isn’t ideal. Lovely evasive runner and nice passer. Would probably make a quality 9. Very talented player but not sure if I want us to building our whole gameplan around him at this level.

He's a quality 10, I generally dislike the flyhalf less than 6ft tall could make a good scrum half suggestion. It's not going to happen.

Smith did struggle quite a bit at times. The unnecessary hitch kicks are almost a nervous tick. He's throwing them in there to buy time because he hasn't got the options he wants. They are far less noticeable at Quins where he also plays closer to the line. That's another confidence thing, he'll play closer to the line when he's got more confidence in the players around him to give him the options he wants. Hopefully we see an evolution of the England attack over the summer and Smith can start to bring more of his swagger to the party as the system around him improves.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Mar 2022, 12:42 pm

Slades already played full back for England for a good 20 mins or so so if Arundell struggles you could always do a shuffle. Malins ain't the answer so I woudn't take him even as emergency cover and I don't think Nowell showed enough in attack to take as a primary winger.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Mar 2022, 12:49 pm

Northgrill wrote:I might get it in the neck for this but I wasn’t too impressed with Marcus over the 6N, aside from his goal kicking which was excellent. He takes the ball too deep, crabs across the pitch and the shovels the ball out to his centres who tend to get man and ball. He didn’t create much space for them at all over the tournament (his main job as a playmaker).

Defensively we have to hide him in our defensive line which means he’s on the wing if we get turnover ball which isn’t ideal. Lovely evasive runner and nice passer. Would probably make a quality 9. Very talented player but not sure if I want us to building our whole gameplan around him at this level.

The best fly half in the English game. And I include Biggar in that. I did see ours wingers getting the ball out wide in space but Malins doesn't know what to do with it! Defensively, well he's not going to stop people on the gain line very often but he's far from weak there. Sorry just don't see that as correct.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Mar 2022, 12:59 pm

As much as the Gatland talk is pretty much a joke (I'm hoping) there does seem to be a bizarre amount of talk about Woodward again. He seems to be angling for an overseer role again from soundbites. Insisting that whoever is England coach should answer to a rugby person.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 21 Mar 2022, 1:10 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:In other news Arundell did it again.

He's a very special attacking player. Not sure he's ready to play fullback internationally but could well make a start on the wing and then drop deeper once his experience has increased. Scored a try from nowhere for the under 20 last night but also threw a pass to no one from a restart with only 3 minutes on the clock which was a bad error and probably cost England a meaningful chance if getting upfield. Vs Tigers in the league he looked lethal when he got the ball but a non-tackle on Nadolo (maybe can't blame him to much for that) and messing up a two on one cost LI 14 points.

He's exactly the kind of player you'd say is worth one of Eddie's apprentice spots, iron out the creases and he's going to rip it up.

I'd hope this tour sees us rest the key guys who were also Lions last summer. Itoje, Lawes and Curry should all stay home and get a full pre season in. Maybe Sinckler and LCD as well. 

A squad of something like;

1. Genge, Marler, Rodd
2. George, Blamire, Dolly
3. Stuart, Heyes, Collier
4. Hill, Launchbury
5. Isiekwe, Chessum
6. Martin, Hill
7. Ludlum, Willis
8. Dombrandt, Simmonds
9. Quirke, Mitchell
10. Smith, Farrell
11. May, Nowell
12. Kelly, Ojomoh
13. Slade, Marchant
14. Radwan, Arundell
15. Steward, Malins

Leaves one more spot open for a wild card or third scrum half.

Enough experience to bit be turned over but key players get a rare pre season and there's opportunities to get experience into positions where we need it to give the squad more competition.
Like the idea overall but I'd want to see Hassell-Collins and Lynagh in there. Drop nowell and Malins for me.

Taking Lynagh on a tour of Australia, that would be very Eddie. Prime wind up material.

If you drop Nowell and Malins the only 15 cover is Arundell and he isn't ready for that yet. We'd need to take one or replace one of OHC or Lynagh with someone like Freeman.

Josh Hodge?

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Post by Northgrill Mon 21 Mar 2022, 1:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Northgrill wrote:I might get it in the neck for this but I wasn’t too impressed with Marcus over the 6N, aside from his goal kicking which was excellent. He takes the ball too deep, crabs across the pitch and the shovels the ball out to his centres who tend to get man and ball. He didn’t create much space for them at all over the tournament (his main job as a playmaker).

Defensively we have to hide him in our defensive line which means he’s on the wing if we get turnover ball which isn’t ideal. Lovely evasive runner and nice passer. Would probably make a quality 9. Very talented player but not sure if I want us to building our whole gameplan around him at this level.

The best fly half in the English game. And I include Biggar in that. I did see ours wingers getting the ball out wide in space but Malins doesn't know what to do with it! Defensively, well he's not going to stop people on the gain line very often but he's far from weak there. Sorry just don't see that as correct.

If we were playing the RWC final tomorrow, I’d be far happier seeing Owen Farrell start at 10. He’s only 30 years old so plenty of road ahead of him. I think Smith will do well to hit the same heights internationally as the likes of Farrell and Sexton have. Biggar has had a great career but was always a level below both of those.

Just my two cents, I’ve always preferred the nuts and bolts type 10 for my team where everyone is on the same page to the Carlos Spencer/Danny Cipriani type 10. As a neutral, give me Spencer and Cipriani any day of the week though Very Happy

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Mar 2022, 1:48 pm

Lifted off the BBC, think it's from the regular rugby weekly/daily podcast which I've not listened to as yet. Agree with a lot of this particular Monye's point that England should be physically dominating though I think the pack in general are, the backs are stagnating. I'd echo Barclay that the promise was attacking rugby, which in 99% of people's minds means including the backs not just pick and goes and 5 metre scrums.

And yes we should be preparing for the WC in the same way as anything else ie the important thing is to make sure you always win the next game.

'The Rugby Football Union's claim that England made "solid progress" during the Six Nations is "dishonest", says former wing Ugo Monye.

England won just two matches for the second successive championship and scored fewer tries than in 2021.

"I want to know who in the RFU thinks that signifies progress and are happy with how things are," Monye told the Rugby Union Daily podcast.

"Fundamentally it's just dishonest. There isn't progress."

Head coach Eddie Jones, 62, has faced calls to resign after England finished in third place following a 25-13 defeat by Grand Slam champions France.

An unnamed RFU spokesperson said the Australian "is building a new England team against a clear strategy" and it "continues to fully support Eddie".

The spokesperson went on to say that "a full review" would be conducted "as is normal after each tournament".

The Mail on Sunday's back page with a picture of France v England
The Mail on Sunday's back page read 'Eddie faces the guillotine' after England's loss
"The RFU are trying to get the press off Eddie Jones' back," said former Wales captain Sam Warburton.

"It's not honest. No-one apart from Italy will see two wins as progress. This is definitely not progress for England."

Monye said someone in power at the RFU should have put their name to the statement and taken responsibility for England's "unacceptable" Six Nations.

He also said he "felt sad for some of the players" because they were not getting the right direction.

"With the financial backing, the player pool and the coaching staff they have you cannot be winning two out of five games two years in a row. It's appalling, unimaginable, unacceptable," he said.

"England talk about showing great spirit and fight against Ireland and France but you expect that as a baseline. They were miles behind where France were."



'England disrespecting the Six Nations'
Jones has regularly stated that he sees England's losses as learning experiences for younger players with the World Cup in France in 2023 in mind, but Warburton said England had not placed enough emphasis on the Six Nations.

"It's not about the World Cup right now, it's about the Six Nations," he said on BBC Two's Rugby Union Special.

"It's an amazing tournament and it's disrespectful to say 'we're building to the World Cup next year'. It's about winning the Six Nations at all costs. I don't like this 'buying time' talk."

The former British and Irish Lions captain said he was baffled by England's decline given the talent they have.

"The World Cup semi-final win against New Zealand in 2019 was probably the best performance England have ever produced but I don't know how they are so far away from that now," he added.

"They should be physically dominating teams and be strong in the set-piece. They have amazing players like Marcus Smith and Harry Randall and should be a brilliant team, but I don't know why they have regressed so far.

"They are way behind where they were for the 2019 World Cup."

Former Scotland captain John Barclay questioned England's strategy and whether the return of injured players such as captain Owen Farrell, Jonny May, Anthony Watson and Manu Tuilagi would solve the team's problems.

"Eddie Jones said he wanted to unleash an expansive and attacking brand of rugby," he said. "They should be playing an amazing brand of rugby but what will these players add to the team if the system is not there?

"England are chopping and changing, they are changing their style of play and it's not clicking at the moment."'

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 21 Mar 2022, 1:49 pm

Northgrill wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Northgrill wrote:I might get it in the neck for this but I wasn’t too impressed with Marcus over the 6N, aside from his goal kicking which was excellent. He takes the ball too deep, crabs across the pitch and the shovels the ball out to his centres who tend to get man and ball. He didn’t create much space for them at all over the tournament (his main job as a playmaker).

Defensively we have to hide him in our defensive line which means he’s on the wing if we get turnover ball which isn’t ideal. Lovely evasive runner and nice passer. Would probably make a quality 9. Very talented player but not sure if I want us to building our whole gameplan around him at this level.

The best fly half in the English game. And I include Biggar in that. I did see ours wingers getting the ball out wide in space but Malins doesn't know what to do with it! Defensively, well he's not going to stop people on the gain line very often but he's far from weak there. Sorry just don't see that as correct.

If we were playing the RWC final tomorrow, I’d be far happier seeing Owen Farrell start at 10. He’s only 30 years old so plenty of road ahead of him. I think Smith will do well to hit the same heights internationally as the likes of Farrell and Sexton have. Biggar has had a great career but was always a level below both of those.

Just my two cents, I’ve always preferred the nuts and bolts type 10 for my team where everyone is on the same page to the Carlos Spencer/Danny Cipriani type 10. As a neutral, give me Spencer and Cipriani any day of the week though Very Happy

I think the reason everyone rates smith is that he can do the nuts and bolts AND do the flashy stuff....you musnt have watched him over the last few years....and his defence is not weak...

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Post by mountain man Mon 21 Mar 2022, 1:54 pm

If RWC final tomorrow (and Eng in it) assuming Manu not there I'd have Farrell in but at 12 not 10. Smith 10 that's it until as, when, if his form deserts him.

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Post by Northgrill Mon 21 Mar 2022, 2:03 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Northgrill wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Northgrill wrote:I might get it in the neck for this but I wasn’t too impressed with Marcus over the 6N, aside from his goal kicking which was excellent. He takes the ball too deep, crabs across the pitch and the shovels the ball out to his centres who tend to get man and ball. He didn’t create much space for them at all over the tournament (his main job as a playmaker).

Defensively we have to hide him in our defensive line which means he’s on the wing if we get turnover ball which isn’t ideal. Lovely evasive runner and nice passer. Would probably make a quality 9. Very talented player but not sure if I want us to building our whole gameplan around him at this level.

The best fly half in the English game. And I include Biggar in that. I did see ours wingers getting the ball out wide in space but Malins doesn't know what to do with it! Defensively, well he's not going to stop people on the gain line very often but he's far from weak there. Sorry just don't see that as correct.

If we were playing the RWC final tomorrow, I’d be far happier seeing Owen Farrell start at 10. He’s only 30 years old so plenty of road ahead of him. I think Smith will do well to hit the same heights internationally as the likes of Farrell and Sexton have. Biggar has had a great career but was always a level below both of those.

Just my two cents, I’ve always preferred the nuts and bolts type 10 for my team where everyone is on the same page to the Carlos Spencer/Danny Cipriani type 10. As a neutral, give me Spencer and Cipriani any day of the week though Very Happy

I think the reason everyone rates smith is that he can do the nuts and bolts AND do the flashy stuff....you musnt have watched him over the last few years....and his defence is not weak...

Why has he been positioned out wide on the wing when we don’t have the ball if his defence is not some sort of issue? I’ve seem him in the Premiership over the last few years and he’s been excellent at times, but being completely honest, the standard is not that high despite what BT tell us.

What do you guys feel Smith could have done better over the course of the 6N? I feel I flagged up a few issues in his game at this level. No harm having something to work on. Our attack misfired badly this 6N and he is our playmaker. He shouldn’t get a complete free pass for that IMO if we have ambitions of winning in France next year.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Mar 2022, 2:12 pm

He hasn't been hidden at international level. Not sure entirely what you'd expect him to do tbh. I'd lay the blame for attack at Gleeson's feet at the moment. And if the best attacking 10 can't perform wonders not sure why Farrell would.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 21 Mar 2022, 2:28 pm

It's hard to judge Smith because he is brand new to international rugby and he had to play with the hand he was dealt. I know he is in the side to provide a spark, but if you have got a backline playing to no visible game plan with nobody to straighten the line or make ground in heavy traffic or tie in defenders, you can't expect miracles.
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