Scotland - 2024 Victim Support Group Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures for this year's jamboree:

3 February 2024
16:45 GMT
Wales v Scotland
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)

10 February 2024
14:15 GMT
Scotland v France
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)

24 February 2024
16:45 GMT
Scotland v England
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Referee: Andrew Brace (Ireland)

9 March 2024
15:15 CET (UTC+1)
Italy v Scotland
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)

16 March 2024
16:45 WET
Ireland v Scotland
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Referee: Matthew Carley (England)

Let's get our post-traumatic stress disorder and excuses in early.

[tigertattie]

Ok, say Toonie goes at the end of the 6ns. Who realistically is going to replace him?

Who will be free or who can the SRU afford to bring in that will be willing to take us on?

And no, Jake white doesn’t want the job

[Highland Shaun]

Is this lazy journalism or is the bloke Callum Crowe of Mail plus onto something when he states there's "fresh doubts over GT future" ? I really hope not because I really don't see the point of sacking him just yet!

Anyway on reply to the above poster, I was on the offside line and they seem to suggest an awful lot such as: Michael Cheika, Johan van Graan, Mike Catt, Dan McFarland and Graham Rowntree to name just a few! How realistic are any of them.

[NeilyBroon]

Is this lazy journalism or is the bloke Callum Crowe of Mail plus onto something when he states there's "fresh doubts over GT future" ? I really hope not because I really don't see the point of sacking him just yet!

Anyway on reply to the above poster, I was on the offside line and they seem to suggest an awful lot such as: Michael Cheika, Johan van Graan, Mike Catt, Dan McFarland and Graham Rowntree to name just a few! How realistic are any of them.

We could literally say this every time Gregor's contract is up for renewal Shaun, doesn't mean he's good for the job. It seems to be how he's stayed so long already anyway.

Realistically we may have to go through a period of an interim coach but I doubt the job is that unattractive that no half decent coach would consider it. At the end of the day it's an international gig.

That said, the longer we drag our feet the less attractive a proposition Scotland become as they slowly go downhill. So disagree with you here, it's not lazy journalism, just a long term observation that we should have already had change, compounded by the fact our best opportunity at silverware when the other teams (bar Ireland) are all over the place has gone. Just so happens to be a poor title a la daily mail.

We barely managed to scrape past a young and inexperienced Wales squad after leading them so convincingly, lost against a French team who were trying their best to lose, had individual moments of brilliance against an England team who were just worse than us on the day and just lost to a decent, pumped up Italian side after putting in an early convincing lead, our solution to claw it back when it'd all gone wrong? To put on a scrum half who looked like he needed oxygen after 30 seconds.

Whilst yes the players are to blame you've got to look at the environment and culture, especially with such dramatic collapses. We have looked rudderless for at least 60% of this six nations.

Toonie has had far more lifelines than any of our other coaches put together. Whatever non-stick coat he's got on, I wish I'd had it for walking the dog this winter!

He's had some good one off wins but what other coach would drop out at two RWC pool stages, in pretty much exactly the same manner both times, and still be in post? Who else could show no/limited improvement 4 six nations in a row?

[bsando]

I think the ideal situation would be Townsend resigning after our match with Ireland. That would give the SRU time to find a new Chief Executive, Performance Director and then eventually a new Head Coach who can select their own team. A Scottish interim Head Coach or one of the current assistant coaches would most likely take over for the Summer Tour (when finalised). With the Super Rugby and European leagues currently in progress that would give the SRU time to sort out their own in house positions first then draw up a list of candidates towards the end of the club seasons. Hopefully by the autumn we would have a new coaching set up in its infancy, three years out from a World Cup.

[king_carlos]

It'd be interesting to see where Toonie ended up if he does leave Scotland. He's such a highly rated attack/backs coach but many who step up to the lead role don't then want to take a long term step down. Rumours are that Faz Snr as already been in contact about the Lions tour. If so, that may well sort a decent chunk of his '24/25 seasons coaching duties anyway.

I've posted in depth on it before but I strongly think that when discussing changing coaches the questions should always be more around who's coming in that who's going out.

[NeilyBroon]

It'd be interesting to see where Toonie ended up if he does leave Scotland. He's such a highly rated attack/backs coach but many who step up to the lead role don't then want to take a long term step down. Rumours are that Faz Snr as already been in contact about the Lions tour. If so, that may well sort a decent chunk of his '24/25 seasons coaching duties anyway.

I've posted in depth on it before but I strongly think that when discussing changing coaches the questions should always be more around who's coming in that who's going out.

We'll see, there may be a who replaces Toonie thread next week

Definitely a more interesting topic! I do remember vern came out of nowhere so hoping for similar this time around!

I hear Jake white has always wanted to coach Scotland

[Anglobraveheart]

And what if we beat Ireland on Saturday?

Let's say the players follow his plan and put in an 80 min performance?

What do we want to do with Toony then?

[bsando]

I won’t speak for others, but the manner of defeats to SA and Ireland at the World Cup were enough for me. The Six Nations has pretty much run as expected, inconsistant performances, ill discipline, an uncertain game plan mixed with dramatic collapses. When it’s good in attack it’s the best of all the teams, but Scotland lack complete performances, a level of stability across 80 minutes. I hope they do win on Saturday and can finish on a high.

[Highland Shaun]

It seems that Mark Dodson's replacement as CEO is John McGuigan .
I am not disagreeing with you @NeilyBroon, I do believe Gregor has unfortunately taken us as far as he can but I would be surprised if he walked after the 6Ns, now I'm not saying that he won't, I'm just saying I'd be surprised . If that's the case then it's up to this McGuigan fella to seek a replacement and I'd imagine Franco Smith would be top of his list and perhaps others that we would mention in the "next Scotland coach" thread.

If we win on Saturday then all talk of Gregor's future would be irrelevant because he'd have earned at least another 6Ns for the biggest win of this year's 6N and I, as always, remain optimistic because I saw enough on Saturday at Twickenham to see where we can target Ireland!

So for now I'm still backing Gregor but if we get another hammering on Saturday like in the autumn then I MAY begin to have doubts but I still feel that the players are equally to blame for giving away stupid/needless penalties!!

[king_carlos]

This is purely thinking out loud on my part, but could Leo Cullen be an astute target for a international job?

Lots of head coach experience now and big success at Leinster but there isn't a clear route to the Ireland job with Faz in contact until 2027 and ROG looking odds on to take over as head honcho. POC and Easterby are installed as forwards coaches there too.

I doubt he'd leave Leinster for another head coach role at domestic level. Why being the obvious question? He's hardly going to wander into a better club setup than having most the Ireland team at his disposal and a huge budget. A head coach role at international level would seem the next logical move. Nienaber is already at Leinster as a ready made replacement were he to be approached.

[Highland Shaun]

I certainly wouldn't say no to him @king_carlos and, like Franco Smith, it's a bonus that he has had very good success in Europe with Leinster getting them to a final only a year or two ago .

[NeilyBroon]

And what if we beat Ireland on Saturday?

Let's say the players follow his plan and put in an 80 min performance?

What do we want to do with Toony then?

I think by this point it's a bit moot as we've had plenty of one off performances that have looked like we've turned a corner. Change is still needed!

That being said he won't walk, Shaun is right there. I expect he'll stay until we have a bad summer tour/autumn.

[mountain man]

You guys should head to England thread, some still want Borthwick sacked even though beat Ireland so maybe if it happens you could have him

[NeilyBroon]

You guys should head to England thread, some still want Borthwick sacked even though beat Ireland so maybe if it happens you could have him

Ah you're good there!

Difference is borthwick has only had a season and a with one world cup semi final and given England a chance to win which isn't that bad despite their turgid displays.

Toonie has had 7 seasons 2 world cup failures, highest finish of third in the 6ns and a man sausage up of our best chance this year.

[Anglobraveheart]

I'm a Toony fan. But, I've not been fully behind his selections or strategies (If all of the strategies on display have been his).
I think the 'Toony oot' mob are placing responsibility wholly on him, and the players are getting away with their own failings.
The penalty count is ridiculous - down to the players.
Russell has gone missing at some point in all of the games. But especially against Wales and Italy.
He is kicking far too much in the second halves, against France especially which, which is where we have been poor - there is an obvious connection here.
His 'leadership' has also gone missing, or the players aren't following instructions. Again, this is down to the players.
Discipline poor - penalties again - for all of his bluster, Christie was a loose cannon giving penalties away and getting isolated.
Skinner is the new Gilchrist-penalty-magnet and seems he'll bent on giving away a rash penalty within 10 secs of going on.
Schoeman lost control.
Redpath looked slow and bereft of ideas.
DvDM went missing.
Kinghorn was out of position twice to concede tries,, and his handling and kicking was poor.
These guys are pro players. Individually and collectively they were rubbish.
A big part of the responsibility for Saturday lies with them.
Yes, Toony selects the team, but player behaviours and on the pitch decisions are down to them.
They are grown up pros and need to be better, regardless of who the coach is.

[NeilyBroon]

I'm a Toony fan. But, I've not been fully behind his selections or strategies (If all of the strategies on display have been his).
I think the 'Toony oot' mob are placing responsibility wholly on him, and the players are getting away with their own failings.
The penalty count is ridiculous - down to the players.
Russell has gone missing at some point in all of the games. But especially against Wales and Italy.
He is kicking far too much in the second halves, against France especially which, which is where we have been poor - there is an obvious connection here.
His 'leadership' has also gone missing, or the players aren't following instructions. Again, this is down to the players.
Discipline poor - penalties again - for all of his bluster, Christie was a loose cannon giving penalties away and getting isolated.
Skinner is the new Gilchrist-penalty-magnet and seems he'll bent on giving away a rash penalty within 10 secs of going on.
Schoeman lost control.
Redpath looked slow and bereft of ideas.
DvDM went missing.
Kinghorn was out of position twice to concede tries,, and his handling and kicking was poor.
These guys are pro players. Individually and collectively they were rubbish.
A big part of the responsibility for Saturday lies with them.
Yes, Toony selects the team, but player behaviours and on the pitch decisions are down to them.
They are grown up pros and need to be better, regardless of who the coach is.

Agreed. But equally I think these players need someone to kick them up the arse. Toonie has proven on multiple occasions he's not the one and is a poor people manager.

Cullen was mentioned earlier who is a great shout if the SRU can convince him to come over. Cheika a bit of a 50/50 could go either way with player buy in, I'd maybe not go for someone so marmite. Franco seems to run a tight ship but people may be right that he's better for a player development role.

These are player related issues but they all play well and sensibly at their respective clubs (Edinburgh excepted) week in week out, I think the problem is there's no cohesiveness and no clear leader has been designated. When we've played best, under Toonie or any other coach is when we've played better than the sum of our parts. I still think the most complete Toonie performance we've had is against England 2018 when England looked to be on a high under Eddie Jones and we were still improving after the VC era. That is the most cohesive I think I've seen us. That and perhaps the NZ autumn performance that year where we were a baw hair from a first ever win.

Since then though these performances have become far rarer other than against England.

[bsando]

You guys should head to England thread, some still want Borthwick sacked even though beat Ireland so maybe if it happens you could have him

Ah you're good there!

Difference is borthwick has only had a season and a with one world cup semi final and given England a chance to win which isn't that bad despite their turgid displays.

Toonie has had 7 seasons 2 world cup failures, highest finish of third in the 6ns and a man sausage up of our best chance this year.

I think most of us expected second place this year, with that effectively gone. If a miracle occurs and Scotland win the triple crown I’d be pleased with that, it’s a great piece of silverware for any of the home nations to have.

[NeilyBroon]

You guys should head to England thread, some still want Borthwick sacked even though beat Ireland so maybe if it happens you could have him

Ah you're good there!

Difference is borthwick has only had a season and a with one world cup semi final and given England a chance to win which isn't that bad despite their turgid displays.

Toonie has had 7 seasons 2 world cup failures, highest finish of third in the 6ns and a man sausage up of our best chance this year.

I think most of us expected second place this year, with that effectively gone. If a miracle occurs and Scotland win the triple crown I’d be pleased with that, it’s a great piece of silverware for any of the home nations to have.

Comes down to the expectation doesn't it. As I recall we were in a similar place last year for it to be crushed by Ireland. It's definitely more stacked against us this year.

Don't get me wrong, I will happily celebrate a triple crown if it happens but it's definitely bittersweet and as ever leaves more questions than answers. Makes me think of Ireland pre 2009 under O'Sullivan. Their change to Schmidt arguably triggered a new era of success (as well as a superb youth programme)

[George Carlin]

I just don't believe that if we think a coaching team has under-delivered over the course of 5 years, the solution should be for fans to lower their expectations.

[BigGee]

Scotland Summer tour dates get formally announced as well today.

As touted we are off to The Americas:

Canada
USA
Chile
Uruguay

I actually think this tour is a decent idea.

The older players can sit it out and recover from a very long year. Some of the fringe players can experience an international tour and hopefully put their hsnds up for future selection.

Our team does clearly need to evolve a little bit and this could be the start of that process.

[bsando]

https://scottishrugby.org/scotland-set-for-north-and-south-america-tour/

America’s tour has been confirmed! Glad to see both Chile and Uruguay are on the list. This will be a great tour for Scotland A and give our big guns a well earned rest before pre season. 

There are some great young players coming through at the moment so I’m pretty excited to see them go on tour and hopefully come back stronger players.

[RDW]

Watching our under 20s for the first time. We're actually competing very well against the Irish. Physically we're not too different and we've actually got a much stronger scrum. The last 10% is letting us down though, and we're on the wrong side of a few dodgy calls (completely destroyed the irish scrum all game yet 5m from their line with our put in both front rows collapse and he gives them a pen).

Scotland's replacement loose head, #4 and #7 showing up well.

[tigertattie]

Watching our under 20s for the first time. We're actually competing very well against the Irish. Physically we're not too different and we've actually got a much stronger scrum. The last 10% is letting us down though, and we're on the wrong side of a few dodgy calls (completely destroyed the irish scrum all game yet 5m from their line with our put in both front rows collapse and he gives them a pen).

Scotland's replacement loose head, #4 and #7 showing up well.

And then the second half came along

Just like the men’s team, second halves have been the kicker for the U20s.

I’m not gonna throw shade at the boys but there is something seriously wrong with our age grade setup. If it’s not fixed we’re in big trouble come the future

[George Carlin]

Yep - if test rugby was only 40 minutes, we would be in a much better place.

[NeilyBroon]

Yep - if test rugby was only 40 minutes, we would be in a much better place.

Maybe we should just put our starting 23 into a sevens tournament.

[doctor_grey]

Yep - if test rugby was only 40 minutes, we would be in a much better place.

As an England supporter, I prefer we just play the games on paper where England are nigh on unbeatable.

For today, just go bang on forward, and get the win. Do it for your southern neighbors.....

[NeilyBroon]

Yep - if test rugby was only 40 minutes, we would be in a much better place.

As an England supporter, I prefer we just play the games on paper where England are nigh on unbeatable.  

For today, just go bang on forward, and get the win.  Do it for your southern neighbors.....

You know it's bad when you're relying on Scotland to win...

We'll try to at least stop Ireland getting a bonus point in 20 minutes...

[bsando]

England should win convincingly today. They looked very good last weekend. Finally clicking!

[lostinwales]

England should win convincingly today. They looked very good last weekend. Finally clicking!

I don't think they'll play as well as they did last week but very much on an upwards trajectory. We'll miss IFW and CCS though

[Heaf]

Don't be too despondent guys - you were only one dodgy decision away from swapping position on the table with France ... and they were only 2 iffy decisions in their favour from coming 5th ...

[NeilyBroon]

Don't be too despondent guys - you were only one dodgy decision away from swapping position on the table with France ... and they were only 2 iffy decisions in their favour from coming 5th ...

Another year of the same heaf, to be the only home nation that hasn't won anything in the last 10 years despite having opportunities is pretty depressing! This year should have provided the team ample opportunity to win something or even the title. That is the worst I've seen Ireland play in ages, yet we still couldn't win, passing up the triple crown again. Italy played with huge motivation against us and just had to wait until we imploded, again, and should really be above us in the table tbh, this is where losing BPs aren't fair. England were absolutely awful in murrayfield, that's how we won that one. France was exactly the same as yesterday, a team looking to lose and yet we still managed to lose against them. A woeful Wales nearly beat us after, yep, an implosion.

So many 'should haves' and 'what ifs' this tournament. Our best opportunity to actually win something gone, arguably from the France game but really killed it dead at the Italy game. Yet at the end the coach doesn't express any disappointment, he just seems proud Ireland didn't absolutely gub us.

Give it 3 years and we'll be back to where we were over 10 years ago with no prospect of rebuilding.

[bsando]

Scotland took an age to adapt to professionalism with the 00's being a torrid decade. It wasn't until Scotland's 2014 Autumn international against Argentina that we saw Scotland were finally turning a corner and on a more positive path. That was just over 9 years ago. Here's how it has gone in the Six Nations since then.

Scotland 6N results under Vern Cotter

2015, 6th, 0 wins
2016, 4th, 2 wins
2017, 4th, 3 wins

Scotland 6N results under Gregor Townsend

2018, 3rd, 3 wins
2019, 5th, 1 win 1 draw
2020, 4th, 3 wins
2021, 4th, 3 wins
2022, 4th, 2 wins
2023, 3rd, 3 wins
2024, 4th, 2 wins

Will Gregor Townsend lead Scotland to a 6N Championship in 2025?

[NeilyBroon]

You can see the post-cotter honeymoon period Toonie enjoyed in 2018, along with Dan McFarland. Then it all goes wrong in 2019. He should have gone after the Japan WC, that was abysmal.

Then you see stability with the introduction of Tandy in 2020.

[George Carlin]

Scotland took an age to adapt to professionalism with the 00's being a torrid decade. It wasn't until Scotland's 2014 Autumn international against Argentina that we saw Scotland were finally turning a corner and on a more positive path. That was just over 9 years ago. Here's how it has gone in the Six Nations since then.

Scotland 6N results under Vern Cotter

2015, 6th, 0 wins
2016, 4th, 2 wins
2017, 4th, 3 wins

Scotland 6N results under Gregor Townsend

2018, 3rd, 3 wins
2019, 5th, 1 win 1 draw
2020, 4th, 3 wins
2021, 4th, 3 wins
2022, 4th, 2 wins
2023, 3rd, 3 wins
2024, 4th, 2 wins

Will Gregor Townsend lead Scotland to a 6N Championship in 2025?

Interesting to see that Bsando. I think that the improvements just came from better players being available. I rate Tandy highly and him coming in helped but this team has not progressed.

[jimbopip]

Lads You know I hate to go against the grain but we all seem to be seeing Scotland's performances in isolation.

Glass half full; we won in Cardiff we're regularly beating Engurlund (home and away) the ref robbed us of a victory over the French.
GC and I are old enough to remember when there would have been a public holiday to mark three victories in succession.

Some of us are in full sackcloth and ashes because we lost to Italy. Zebre have improved massively (as in they're not bottom of the pile) and have 8 LBP's. They are way more competitive than Scarlets, Dragons or Sharks. Benneton are probably the most improved team in europe. The Azzuri under 20's thumped France under 20's.Losing to them in Rome was no disgrace. Losing to them in Cardiff, however
Ireland are enjoying one of the best periods in their history. Playing them in Dublin, on St Paddy's weekend, with the title up for grabs, on POM's last match.
I asked a wrinkled old member of the Irish clergy if Scotland had any chance and his considered reply was, "Fecc of ya eejit that you are!"

If we want to know what Toonie has achieved then consider;  we are all regally p*ssed off that we didn't have a crack at a Grand Slam decider. We're really cheesed of that we didn't win the Triple Crown. Just retaining the Calcutta Cup isn't enough.

We all read the script; yesterday was Ireland's day.

Supporting this Scotland team is like reading the closing passage of The Great Gatsby every morning, you know, "His dream seemed so close that he could hardly fail to grasp it....it eluded him then, it eludes us now...and so we beat on boats against the current."*
I'm not sure we should berate Toonie for allowing us to have great expectations

*apologies for misquoting terribly, my memory isn't....isn't...what?

[NeilyBroon]

Lads You know I hate to go against the grain but we all seem to be seeing Scotland's performances in isolation.

Glass half full; we won in Cardiff we're regularly beating Engurlund (home and away) the ref robbed us of a victory over the French.
GC and I are old enough to remember when there would have been a public holiday to mark three victories in succession.

Some of us are in full sackcloth and ashes because we lost to Italy. Zebre have improved massively (as in they're not bottom of the pile) and have 8 LBP's. They are way more competitive than Scarlets, Dragons or Sharks. Benneton are probably the most improved team in europe. The Azzuri under 20's thumped France under 20's.Losing to them in Rome was no disgrace. Losing to them in Cardiff, however
Ireland are enjoying one of the best periods in their history. Playing them in Dublin, on St Paddy's weekend, with the title up for grabs, on POM's last match.
I asked a wrinkled old member of the Irish clergy if Scotland had any chance and his considered reply was, "Fecc of ya eejit that you are!"

If we want to know what Toonie has achieved then consider;  we are all regally p*ssed off that we didn't have a crack at a Grand Slam decider. We're really cheesed of that we didn't win the Triple Crown. Just retaining the Calcutta Cup isn't enough.

We all read the script; yesterday was Ireland's day.

Supporting this Scotland team is like reading the closing passage of The Great Gatsby every morning, you know, "His dream seemed so close that he could hardly fail to grasp it....it eluded him then, it eludes us now...and so we beat on boats against the current."*
I'm not sure we should berate Toonie for allowing us to have great expectations

*apologies for misquoting terribly, my memory isn't....isn't...what?

It's not about berating Toonie to be fair, and my memory isn't so short I've forgotten the days of sideburns and de Luca making up the axis of evil. It's more that these expectations have existed for a lot longer than the last year and we've never really progressed under Toonie.

I know if you'd told me this in 2010 I'd have snapped your hand off. But it's like Glasgow losing the final under Dave Rennie was disappointing, yes I'm glad the standard has increased so it's led to increased expectations, but I also expect to see some progress. This year we should have won 4. That would have put me in my place as far as Toonie is concerned. The reality is is we are where we have been for the last 7 years.

I think get an interim or run Toonie up to summer tour whilst looking for a replacement. Thankyou very much but we need someone new to take us forward. Townsend has had far better treatment than VC ever had, which was allegedly as a result of Toonie threatening to leave unless he got the big job, so my sympathy is somewhat limited!

[bsando]

Similar to Broony I think the Russell communication farce then the way the team failed to show up when it mattered at the World Cup has really made it clear to me that Toonie has lost his way. Then fast forward to the six nations, two wins, fourth. Where is the future growth? There are so many good rugby coaches in the world, are we tied to Toonie because he’s Scottish? His contract? Paying him off and winning the six nations next season while developing the next generation seems a much more appealing prospect. If its fourth again next season under a new coach then at least the SRU are moving Scottish rugby forwards. The results suggest we’re stuck in the mud.

[mountain man]

Rumor is if it doesn't work out with Japan, Scotland are lining up Eddie Jones.

[BigGee]

Reality is, there is way to much change going kn already jn Scottish Rugby

We have a CEO and a Director of Rugby post to fill in the short term probably before we seriously think about changing the national coach.

Toonie was Dodson's man though and with a new boss coming in, he is not going to be fireproof from here on in, that is for sure, but nothjng is going to change untill the new guys get their feet under the table and take stock.

That will likely take us into next season when the real test of, we are improving despite our results, as Toonie is telling us, will get put to a more objective test.
Realistically, the only coach who could step in at short notice would be Franco.

We don't know if he would want to do that, having already stepped back from international coaching in the past and it would do Glasgow (and indirectly Scotland) a diservice as they are building very nicely and some good young players are developing well there.

The end of next years 6N is more likely to be crunch time if there are no signs of improvement next year.

I also think the team is a bit stale and needs freshening up a bit. One of the few positives this season has been the emergence of new players like Christie and Lord Stafford.

That is a process that needs to continue whoever our head coach might be.

[NeilyBroon]

Rumor is if it doesn't work out with Japan, Scotland are lining up Eddie Jones.

"I just always loved Scottish rugby mate, Japan? Nah mate I never lied, the contract had a 3 month cooldown period and I just couldn't say no to a team with deep seated psychological issues"

[NeilyBroon]

Reality is, there is way to much change going kn already jn Scottish Rugby

We have a CEO and a Director of Rugby post to fill in the short term probably before we seriously think about changing the national coach.

Toonie was Dodson's man though and with a new boss coming in, he is not going to be fireproof from here on in, that is for sure, but nothjng is going to change untill the new guys get their feet under the table and take stock.

That will likely take us into next season when the real test of, we are improving despite our results, as Toonie is telling us, will get put to a more objective test.
Realistically, the only coach who could step in at short notice would be Franco.

We don't know if he would want to do that, having already stepped back from international coaching in the past and it would do Glasgow (and indirectly Scotland) a diservice as they are building very nicely and some good young players are developing well there.

The end of next years 6N is more likely to be crunch time if there are no signs of improvement next year.

I also think the team is a bit stale and needs freshening up a bit. One of the few positives this season has been the emergence of new players like Christie and Lord Stafford.

That is a process that needs to continue whoever our head coach might be.

I think you're right, essentially the SRU ballsed up with last year's contract renewal to '26. It should have ended at the world cup or been renewed based on performance. I can guarantee next six nations will be exactly the same or worse. Might take a wooden spoon to get teflon Townsend out.

[EWT Spoons]

Reality is, there is way to much change going kn already jn Scottish Rugby

We have a CEO and a Director of Rugby post to fill in the short term probably before we seriously think about changing the national coach.

Toonie was Dodson's man though and with a new boss coming in, he is not going to be fireproof from here on in, that is for sure, but nothjng is going to change untill the new guys get their feet under the table and take stock.

That will likely take us into next season when the real test of, we are improving despite our results, as Toonie is telling us, will get put to a more objective test.
Realistically, the only coach who could step in at short notice would be Franco.

We don't know if he would want to do that, having already stepped back from international coaching in the past and it would do Glasgow (and indirectly Scotland) a diservice as they are building very nicely and some good young players are developing well there.

The end of next years 6N is more likely to be crunch time if there are no signs of improvement next year.

I also think the team is a bit stale and needs freshening up a bit. One of the few positives this season has been the emergence of new players like Christie and Lord Stafford.

That is a process that needs to continue whoever our head coach might be.

Agree with this overall.  

With regards to the bit in bold, just to add to it, he's only had 1 season so far at Glasgow as he's in the middle of his 2nd season.  It's probably way too early to pass judgement on his readiness for International rugby after 1 full season.  So whilst he's under the SRU umbrella, and as you say could step in in short notice, purely due to being in-house, it's too early to say if he would be capable.

Unless he chooses to leave, Toonie will see out the calendar year and most likely next year's 6n

[bsando]

Christie could be a very good player for Scotland. Dempsey is making an impact too. It was certainly great to see the Scottish forwards hold off Ireland for most of the match.

I think what you’ve said Gee is what will ultimately transpire. And we could as a nation be in a far worse situation, finically or otherwise. The players seem happy enough and still eager to play well and improve despite results so that is a positive.

[BigGee]

Reality is, there is way to much change going kn already jn Scottish Rugby

We have a CEO and a Director of Rugby post to fill in the short term probably before we seriously think about changing the national coach.

Toonie was Dodson's man though and with a new boss coming in, he is not going to be fireproof from here on in, that is for sure, but nothjng is going to change untill the new guys get their feet under the table and take stock.

That will likely take us into next season when the real test of, we are improving despite our results, as Toonie is telling us, will get put to a more objective test.
Realistically, the only coach who could step in at short notice would be Franco.

We don't know if he would want to do that, having already stepped back from international coaching in the past and it would do Glasgow (and indirectly Scotland) a diservice as they are building very nicely and some good young players are developing well there.

The end of next years 6N is more likely to be crunch time if there are no signs of improvement next year.

I also think the team is a bit stale and needs freshening up a bit. One of the few positives this season has been the emergence of new players like Christie and Lord Stafford.

That is a process that needs to continue whoever our head coach might be.

I think you're right, essentially the SRU ballsed up with last year's contract renewal to '26. It should have ended at the world cup or been renewed based on performance. I can guarantee next six nations will be exactly the same or worse. Might take a wooden spoon to get teflon Townsend out.

We don't know the full spec of his contract to be fair.

I would however be very surprised if there were not some break clauses and performance guarantees in it.

As the contract runs down as well, it would cost less and less to terminate it.

Toonie strikes me as well as soneone who can read a room. He knows the senior management of the SRU are changing and he also knows this year has not been good enough.

He clearly still beleives, but I do think he would walk if he stops having that feeling.

It's been a funny old 6N in many ways, with all teams playing well and badly at times and no-one really starting their rebuilding process either.

I think things could stay evenly matched and unsettled for a year or 2 yet.

[RDW]

2018, 3rd, 3 wins
2019, 5th, 1 win 1 draw
2020, 4th, 3 wins
2021, 4th, 3 wins
2022, 4th, 2 wins
2023, 3rd, 3 wins
2024, 4th, 2 wins

Mixed emotions today. To reteriate my general outlook of Scotland in the 6N, having grown up in the 00s and 10s when we were lucky to win one game, the above results are remarkably consistent and impressive. Each year we are consistently up against a few of the best teams in the world, where every other nation has vastly more playing resources than we do. During those dark days the thought of  getting at least 2 wins 5 years in a row was pie in the sky stuff.

We have had some wonderful memories and big victories under Toonie, playing a brand of rugby that has led to us selling out Murrayfield every single game now, instead of having to play Romania in Kilmarnock and not even selling our the stadium. We have produced Test Lions and justifiably had a large contingent in 2021, as opposed to a token representation.

So 16 year old me is wondering why are we so negative?

The overriding reason why is because we genuinely had a once in a generation chance to do better, yet have blown it - again. In terms of quality of opposition this was probably the 'weakest' 6N we've come up against. Wales a shambles. England and France in transition. Ireland still one of the best but short of their peak. Italy much improved but still Italy.

This 6N has been hugely, hugely disappointing  because the one time that we genuinely had a chance to do well, we produced the worst we've produced in a long time and fell way short.

It's sh!te being Scottish sometimes it really is!

[George Carlin]

If only Toonie had the stones to do what Gatland did and just offer his resignation.

Whether or not the SRU accepted it, that would have been a meaningful gesture.

For those who think that no decent coach would ever move continents to take the job, the guy I originally wanted (Brumbies and Wallabies' Dan McKellar) moved to Leicester Tigers last year and is doing great. You really don't think Jake White would consider stepping away from the Bulls? He needs to be a Scot? Do I need to mention that Clark Laidlaw's Hurricanes are currently top of Super Rugby Pacific? Come on people. There are options.

Not that I don't understand Jim's impassioned plea to see the glass of Buckfast and Creme de Menthe as half full. I do. But it's been said above - Townsend has been protected by the SRU and any far sighted McBumfertie can use their change of management to swap out the coaching staff too. Coaching at this level and with this level of remuneration is a meritocracy (as it is with most jobs). Let's not forget that.

[bsando]

If only Toonie had the stones to do what Gatland did and just offer his resignation.

Whether or not the SRU accepted it, that would have been a meaningful gesture.

For those who think that no decent coach would ever move continents to take the job, the guy I originally wanted (Brumbies and Wallabies' Dan McKellar) moved to Leicester Tigers last year and is doing great. You really don't think Jake White would consider stepping away from the Bulls? He needs to be a Scot? Do I need to mention that Clark Laidlaw's Hurricanes are currently top of Super Rugby Pacific? Come on people. There are options.

Not that I don't understand Jim's impassioned plea to see the glass of Buckfast and Creme de Menthe as half full. I do. But it's been said above - Townsend has been protected by the SRU and any far sighted McBumfertie can use their change of management to swap out the coaching staff too. Coaching at this level and with this level of remuneration is a meritocracy (as it is with most jobs). Let's not forget that.

I hope no one on here has ever tasted let alone drunk a full glass of buckfast and crème de menthe.

Some really good points made either side of the debate. Ultimately everyone just wants to see Scotland improve regardless of who coaches the national team etc. 

I’m going to try and watch all of Scotland women’s games this year and hopefully that will raise the spirits if they perform well.

[BigGee]

Clarke Laidlaw is definitely one for the future, but this is his first year of Super Rugby, prior to that he was mainly a sevens coach.

He seems to have made a good start however, so we will watch his career with great interest.

[bsando]

Getting away from future of the coaches, who’s stock has risen and who’s has fallen during the championship?

Up

Christie
Harry Paterson
Kyle Rowe
Stafford McDowall
Cummings
Dempsey
Redpath

Down

Ritchie
M fagerson
Kinghorn
Bhatti

[NeilyBroon]

Getting away from future of the coaches, who’s stock has risen and who’s has fallen during the championship?

Up

Christie
Harry Paterson
Kyle Rowe
Stafford McDowall
Cummings
Dempsey
Redpath

Down

Ritchie
M fagerson
Kinghorn
Bhatti

Bhatti hasn't even featured for his stock to drop!

I'd put Darge in the Down column. I'd argue that's not necessarily his fault. He should have been either full captain or just focus on playing. Maybe he should captain the summer tour or in the autumn. I think a decision needs to be made on captaincy ASAP.

It's a shame Big Richie is forever injured as I think he'd be a great candidate to take it through to retirement.

[Sponsored content]