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Italy vs England

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Cumbrian
Yoda
Collapse2005
Geordie
Mr Bounce
formerly known as Sam
lostinwales
Heaf
carpet baboon
BigGee
Duty281
doctor_grey
mountain man
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bsando
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Italy vs England - Page 3 Empty Italy vs England

Post by bsando Sun 28 Jan 2024, 7:15 am

First topic message reminder :

Italy vs England
Guiness Six Nations, 2024

Round One
Saturday 3rd of February
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Kick Off 14:15 GMT

Referee: Paul Williams (NZ)
ARs: Nic Berry (Aus) & Pierre Brousset (Fra) Nika Amashukeli (Geo)
TMO: Brett Cronan (Aus)

TV Coverage ITV 1
Virgin Media (ROI)

Teams

Italy

Allan; Capuozzo, Brex, Menoncello, Ioane; P Garbisi, A Garbisi; Fischetti, Lucchesi, Ceccarelli, N Cannone, Ruzza, Negri, Lamaro (capt), L Cannone.

Replacements: Nicotera, Spagnolo, Zilocchi, Zambonin, Iachizzi, Zuliani, Varney, Pani

England

Steward; Freeman, Slade, Dingwall, Daly; Ford, Mitchell; Marler, George (capt), Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, Roots, Underhill, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Genge, Cole, Coles, Cunningham-South, Care, F Smith, Feyi-Waboso


Last edited by bsando on Thu 01 Feb 2024, 7:00 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by mountain man Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:13 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Some signs of improvement and some signs of regression. Thoroughly mixed bag for England. New guys were pretty good, some of the old heads needs to be moved on (Marler, Cole, Care and especially Daly).

Italy look like they have improved a bit again. They are developing some good players.

Not sure Slade deserves to stay either. Typical performance, tidy but no more.
Freeman 13.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:14 pm

mountain man wrote:Steward slow but dud some good stuff. Don't want to see Daly again and I'd have Freeman at 13 and start Feyi-Wasobo on wing. Roots excellent and C-CS looks born to it.

Steward was good I thought. Covered everything at the back with aplomb. Got involved in attack and made his tackles. Needs to hit the line at speed a bit more but that could be just fitting into the new backline. Freeman was great but I thought Slade played well so on the wing works for now. Daly was woeful and that should be the end of his international career.

The choice of the scrum at the end was daft. We had them in all sorts of trouble at the lineout and rolling maul. Even tap and go with them down their talismanic flanker would have been better.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:15 pm

mountain man wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Some signs of improvement and some signs of regression. Thoroughly mixed bag for England. New guys were pretty good, some of the old heads needs to be moved on (Marler, Cole, Care and especially Daly).

Italy look like they have improved a bit again. They are developing some good players.

Not sure Slade deserves to stay either. Typical performance, tidy but no more.
Freeman 13.

Slade moved the ball well in attack and his work on the kick chase was very good. I wouldn't move him until Lawrence is fit again.

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Post by mountain man Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:15 pm

After first 20 mins I'm happy to take win. There was also signs of better attack but defence all over shop at times.

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Post by Yoda Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:17 pm

Jesus wept. That was a poor last 5mins. Not sure the ref knows what's going on and doesn't seem interested. The touch judges were pretty crap too. Why would we collapse the scrum five meters from the italian line? Surely a moving maul brought down twice deserves a penalty try?

Daley was beyond rubbish. Can't kick anymore, can't tackle and looks shadow of himself. Shame really as I was defending him the other day. Italy did what they did last year to France, will they build on this or fall away again? Thought they looked more controlled and willing to play the percentages which means they will be harder to break.

At least we won the first game of the six nations for once, but crickey Felix Jones has some work to do.

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Post by Geordie Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:18 pm

Rusty, lack of cohesion as expected, lots of new players,

Change of tactics, breakdown not as ferocious as the world Cup, and defensive structure different aswell....

Lots of green shoots to work on.

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Post by Heaf Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:19 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mountain man wrote:Steward slow but dud some good stuff. Don't want to see Daly again and I'd have Freeman at 13 and start Feyi-Wasobo on wing. Roots excellent and C-CS looks born to it.

Steward was good I thought. Covered everything at the back with aplomb. Got involved in attack and made his tackles. Needs to hit the line at speed a bit more but that could be just fitting into the new backline. Freeman was great but I thought Slade played well so on the wing works for now. Daly was woeful and that should be the end of his international career.

The choice of the scrum at the end was daft. We had them in all sorts of trouble at the lineout and rolling maul. Even tap and go with them down their talismanic flanker would have been better.

Yep - probably the difference between winning by 3 and winning by 17 ...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:28 pm

Yeah get Freeman to 13 and bring through some.cutting edge.

I'm slightly apprehensive looking to the Wales game,will be interesting to see how they get on Vs Scotland though.

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Post by Cumbrian Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:29 pm

Didn't really understand the reasoning when taking the scrum. They weren't showing enough urgency for attempting a crack at the TBP, so why not just take a shot at goal.

I haven't read back through the thread, but it frustrated me massively that Italy basically lived offside.

The performance probably won't frighten anyone, but it is a momentum game. If we can win the next game, it sets us up for a charge at the championship. Might rue not getting the bonus point though.
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Post by Barney McGrew did it Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:33 pm

Phew, a tight game between 2 pretty evenly matched (albeit dubious quality) sides – made it mostly exciting viewing. But a good win, now we’ll be fighting Wales for 4th - it'll be interesting to see which side has regressed the most.
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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:38 pm

Italy look better, changing coaches seems to be the right call so far. England alright, still had enough to put Italy away whilst perhaps having a bit of an off day.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:44 pm

Yoda wrote:Jesus wept. That was a poor last 5mins. Not sure the ref knows what's going on and doesn't seem interested. The touch judges were pretty crap too. Why would we collapse the scrum five meters from the italian line? Surely a moving maul brought down twice deserves a penalty try?

Daley was beyond rubbish. Can't kick anymore, can't tackle and looks shadow of himself. Shame really as I was defending him the other day. Italy did what they did last year to France, will they build on this or fall away again? Thought they looked more controlled and willing to play the percentages which means they will be harder to break.

At least we won the first game of the six nations for once, but crickey Felix Jones has some work to do.

I think Italy can feel equally aggrieved. The Mitchell try could easily have been chalked off for standing up in the tackle or the forward pass to Daly or Marler in the side all in the lead up to the try.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:53 pm

Boys, I got called into work this morning and only got back just past the 60 minute mark.  I will watch the whole thing from the start later on.  But for now, I see Roots was MOTM and CCS seems a major prospect.  Who else looked good?  Who, maybe not so much (Daly)?  Not worried about that last Azzurri try, but England only scored two of their own??????

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 03 Feb 2024, 4:57 pm

Freeman. When he got the ball was pretty much the only time we looked dangerous.

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Post by Yoda Sat 03 Feb 2024, 5:09 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Yoda wrote:Jesus wept. That was a poor last 5mins. Not sure the ref knows what's going on and doesn't seem interested. The touch judges were pretty crap too. Why would we collapse the scrum five meters from the italian line? Surely a moving maul brought down twice deserves a penalty try?

Daley was beyond rubbish. Can't kick anymore, can't tackle and looks shadow of himself. Shame really as I was defending him the other day. Italy did what they did last year to France, will they build on this or fall away again? Thought they looked more controlled and willing to play the percentages which means they will be harder to break.

At least we won the first game of the six nations for once, but crickey Felix Jones has some work to do.

I think Italy can feel equally aggrieved. The Mitchell try could easily have been chalked off for standing up in the tackle or the forward pass to Daly or Marler in the side all in the lead up to the try.

Not sure Mitchell did anything wrong. I was merely pointing out the officials didn't seem to know what was happening, several reviews decisions that were only picked up when the slow mo was replayed. The decision about the scrum at the end was apparently for knee on the floor by obano but the commentators said collapsing. Goes to show the commentators know less than me. I did think Italy where lucky their first try stood mind. Swings and roundabouts I suppose.

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Post by mountain man Sat 03 Feb 2024, 5:12 pm

Roots Freeman CCS all good. Feyi-Wasobo showed promise in short time on field.
Daly awful, Steward slow but some good stuff. Hard to know what to do with him as so reliable but not sharp enough.
Not sure Dingwall justified keeping place.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 03 Feb 2024, 5:22 pm

Daly can get in the bin. ANY player who trips an opposition player should be out of the squad. I don't care how much goodwill you have in the bank. It will always be picked up and will always be carded.

As Brian Moore would say: "That's just stupid!"

Hopefully Feyi-Waboso will now be given the shirt - he looked keen and exciting in his 3 or 4 minutes on the pitch. Maybe Roebuck goes to the bench.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 03 Feb 2024, 5:33 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:Daly can get in the bin. ANY player who trips an opposition player should be out of the squad. I don't care how much goodwill you have in the bank. It will always be picked up and will always be carded.

As Brian Moore would say: "That's just stupid!"

Hopefully Feyi-Waboso will now be given the shirt - he looked keen and exciting in his 3 or 4 minutes on the pitch. Maybe Roebuck goes to the bench.
When I got home I saw Fin, Coles and IFW were still on the bench. I was surprised/disappointed. If IFW is considered a prospect, giving him only a few minutes makes no sense. Same for Fin. Coles I understand holding off. But the Daly trip? I can't believe that one.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 03 Feb 2024, 5:37 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Daly can get in the bin. ANY player who trips an opposition player should be out of the squad. I don't care how much goodwill you have in the bank. It will always be picked up and will always be carded.

As Brian Moore would say: "That's just stupid!"

Hopefully Feyi-Waboso will now be given the shirt - he looked keen and exciting in his 3 or 4 minutes on the pitch. Maybe Roebuck goes to the bench.
When I got home I saw Fin, Coles and IFW were still on the bench.  I was surprised/disappointed.  If IFW is considered a prospect, giving him only a few minutes makes no sense.  Same for Fin.  Coles I understand holding off.  But the Daly trip?  I can't believe that one.  

I think Fin got about 15 mins in the end which was good. He came on when England went 10 points up, I think Borthwick wanted him to enter with a points cushion.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 03 Feb 2024, 5:53 pm

I'm feeling more comfortable about next week watching this match.

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Post by Heaf Sat 03 Feb 2024, 5:57 pm

Wales won't be this poor again ...

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Post by Heaf Sat 03 Feb 2024, 5:58 pm

Just a thought on Daly ... I reckon he thought, hold on this is England and we haven't had a card in this match - hold me pint ...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 03 Feb 2024, 5:59 pm

Heaf wrote:Just a thought on Daly ... I reckon he thought, hold on this is England and we haven't had a card in this match - hold me pint ...

Considering how he played it wasn't his first pint.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 03 Feb 2024, 6:02 pm

Heaf wrote:Wales won't be this poor again ...

Our attack isn't as good as Scotland's either.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 03 Feb 2024, 6:13 pm

Ah. I'm back to being apprehensive.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 03 Feb 2024, 6:19 pm

Scotland seem to be doing their best to make it interesting.

Of the other England players Marler was very good. Stuart busy, Itoje very good, Chessum good. Underhill seemed very quiet. Earl wasn't very visible but did apparently make a lot of yards. Smith looked fine but didn't do anything amazing. Dingwall wasn't very prominent at all but may well have done more work than we saw. Slade was good, which is never fashionable to say but he did an important job not least as a back up kicker. Daly had a couple of good touches and a few bad.

I do think there was some general scapegoating because it was mostly an average display with some bad patches and some good. New defensive structures and some hard running Italians did make for some tough watching.

I don't think Roots will be a long term option, but he'll be very solid while we work out who is going to be the long term 6. CCS has as good a chance as anyone.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 03 Feb 2024, 6:23 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Of the other England players Marler was very good.

Erm what?!? At the scrum he did not a lot and around the park he walked. Anonymous was how I'd describe him. He'll be lucky to retain a spot in the 23 for next week if Genge returns.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 03 Feb 2024, 7:29 pm

Marler carried a great deal and tackled everything that came his way.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 03 Feb 2024, 8:53 pm

Dingwall's stats - 9 tackles 5 missed

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Post by Yoda Sat 03 Feb 2024, 9:21 pm

lostinwales wrote:Dingwall's stats - 9 tackles 5 missed

Italy definitely picked the 10-12 channel to attack. Thought they attacked well when they had it and moved the ball effortlessly wide at times. They could be a difficult team to beat this six nations. Still didn't think dingwall was that bad and had some nice passes in attack. Our problem in d was honey potting with our defense getting so narrow and then we had to scramble. Italy had the look of a team who have played alot of rugby together and were flooding space really well. I hope they kick on and get a victory or two this year. As for England the second half up to 75 mins is our base to build on as we controlled the game fairly well.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 04 Feb 2024, 7:36 am

It was all a bit underwhelming yesterday. At least we won and the debutant s all looked capable are the best things about it. At least Capuozzo wasn't playing!

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Post by mountain man Sun 04 Feb 2024, 8:28 am

Yep after 20mins it could have been worse.
New caps really good, Roots especially. I'm not sold on Dingwall yet, I wonder how he'll cope with better midfields than Italy and Scotland, France and Ireland definitely have them.

Anyone know when Lawrence likely be fit?

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Post by Geordie Sun 04 Feb 2024, 9:57 am

Midfield was qay too lightweight missing Manu or Lawrence.

Hopefully Hartley comes through...he's a monster or maybe move Steward to 12 as some have suggested...

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Post by mountain man Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:01 am

Have to say in past when it's been suggested Steward moved to centre I was sceptical to say the least but it's an option worth considering. He's too good a player to drop but doesn't have off the mark pace for a 15. Has he ever played 12 though?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:26 am

lostinwales wrote:Marler carried a great deal and tackled everything that came his way.

9 carries for 1m. 7 tackles in a 70+ minute performance, Obano managed 2 in less than 10 minutes. Marler looked lethargic, he'll be lucky to keep his place.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:29 am

mountain man wrote:Have to say in past when it's been suggested Steward moved to centre I was sceptical to say the least but it's an option worth considering. He's too good a player to drop but doesn't have off the mark pace for a 15. Has he ever played 12 though?

Steward from 15 was one of our best players. Draws the two Italian defenders and puts Freeman through the gap for Daly's try. Levelled Cannone in the build up to Italy's first try, the number 8 doesn't recover and has to be replaced. Dominated the backfield, removing the Italian kicking game as a factor, even the little chip just outside the England 22 which was a great take under pressure.

No England player beat more Italian defenders than Steward did.

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Post by Yoda Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:33 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Marler carried a great deal and tackled everything that came his way.

9 carries for 1m. 7 tackles in a 70+ minute performance, Obano managed 2 in less than 10 minutes. Marler looked lethargic, he'll be lucky to keep his place.

There were passengers out there. Mentally slow to start the match and never really seemed to get out of second gear. At least we had the exuberance of youth who came to play. They need a bit of excitement and emotion before kick off to get the juices flowing. Jamie George needs to get to grips with managing the emotion level of his team and get everyone fired up.

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Post by Yoda Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:36 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mountain man wrote:Have to say in past when it's been suggested Steward moved to centre I was sceptical to say the least but it's an option worth considering. He's too good a player to drop but doesn't have off the mark pace for a 15. Has he ever played 12 though?

Steward from 15 was one of our best players. Draws the two Italian defenders and puts Freeman through the gap for Daly's try. Levelled Cannone in the build up to Italy's first try, the number 8 doesn't recover and has to be replaced. Dominated the backfield, removing the Italian kicking game as a factor, even the little chip just outside the England 22 which was a great take under pressure.

No England player beat more Italian defenders than Steward did.

To be fair, I have been critical of steward in the past but yesterday he was good. None of their tries were his fault and he is a hard guy to stop. If you have a 15 who bullied a no8 in contact that is a positive. If freeman and feyi can roam and do the attacking running off the shoulder off steward then he does have to be a whippet in attack.

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Post by mountain man Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:47 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mountain man wrote:Have to say in past when it's been suggested Steward moved to centre I was sceptical to say the least but it's an option worth considering. He's too good a player to drop but doesn't have off the mark pace for a 15. Has he ever played 12 though?

Steward from 15 was one of our best players. Draws the two Italian defenders and puts Freeman through the gap for Daly's try. Levelled Cannone in the build up to Italy's first try, the number 8 doesn't recover and has to be replaced. Dominated the backfield, removing the Italian kicking game as a factor, even the little chip just outside the England 22 which was a great take under pressure.

No England player beat more Italian defenders than Steward did.

As I said he is too good to drop but there is no question he is not quick enough off the mark.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 04 Feb 2024, 10:47 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Marler carried a great deal and tackled everything that came his way.

9 carries for 1m. 7 tackles in a 70+ minute performance, Obano managed 2 in less than 10 minutes. Marler looked lethargic, he'll be lucky to keep his place.

His carries are what they needed to be (and what he does) cleaning up bad ball and protecting it

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 04 Feb 2024, 11:13 am

lostinwales wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Marler carried a great deal and tackled everything that came his way.

9 carries for 1m. 7 tackles in a 70+ minute performance, Obano managed 2 in less than 10 minutes. Marler looked lethargic, he'll be lucky to keep his place.

His carries are what they needed to be (and what he  does) cleaning up bad ball and protecting it

Making it over the gain line on one carry and then only just isn't quite doing his job. Not all his carries were clearing up mess though some certainly were. You can get around those stats if your prop is dominant at the scrum but erm he wasn't close to being so.

England need more mobile physicality across the pack. Marler, Cole and Underhill may all struggle to keep their spots as we try to accomplish that.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 04 Feb 2024, 11:23 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Marler carried a great deal and tackled everything that came his way.

9 carries for 1m. 7 tackles in a 70+ minute performance, Obano managed 2 in less than 10 minutes. Marler looked lethargic, he'll be lucky to keep his place.

His carries are what they needed to be (and what he  does) cleaning up bad ball and protecting it

Making it over the gain line on one carry and then only just isn't quite doing his job. Not all his carries were clearing up mess though some certainly were. You can get around those stats if your prop is dominant at the scrum but erm he wasn't close to being so.

England need more mobile physicality across the pack. Marler, Cole and Underhill may all struggle to keep their spots as we try to accomplish that.

Alot of Marlers carries were purposefully not going beyond the game line as he was carrying in defensive areas for better kicking angles tbf.

Personally I wouldn't be starting either prop maybe Marler given Genge was out but Borthwick wants set piece props first and foremost.

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Post by mountain man Sun 04 Feb 2024, 11:28 am

And this was mentioned in commentary, Marler knew exactly how far to carry to ensure England could retain possession and not get turned over.

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Post by Geordie Sun 04 Feb 2024, 12:12 pm

14 of that Italy squad play for Benneton...so similar to Leinster..training day in day out...it helps

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 04 Feb 2024, 12:24 pm

Borthwick had the choice to load the team with Northampton players. His choice.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 04 Feb 2024, 12:26 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Marler carried a great deal and tackled everything that came his way.

9 carries for 1m. 7 tackles in a 70+ minute performance, Obano managed 2 in less than 10 minutes. Marler looked lethargic, he'll be lucky to keep his place.

His carries are what they needed to be (and what he  does) cleaning up bad ball and protecting it

Making it over the gain line on one carry and then only just isn't quite doing his job. Not all his carries were clearing up mess though some certainly were. You can get around those stats if your prop is dominant at the scrum but erm he wasn't close to being so.

England need more mobile physicality across the pack. Marler, Cole and Underhill may all struggle to keep their spots as we try to accomplish that.

oh Marler and Cole are definitely on borrowed time, and yesterday was definitely not one of Underhill's best games. I would have expected him to be the one to stop the Italian runs down the middle but Ford ended up being the target.

Stats say Underhill made 5 tackles. which is very low, although to be honest nobody had particularly high stats - England overall made 108 tackles out of 127 attempts (George top with 10).


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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 04 Feb 2024, 1:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Marler carried a great deal and tackled everything that came his way.

9 carries for 1m. 7 tackles in a 70+ minute performance, Obano managed 2 in less than 10 minutes. Marler looked lethargic, he'll be lucky to keep his place.

His carries are what they needed to be (and what he  does) cleaning up bad ball and protecting it

Making it over the gain line on one carry and then only just isn't quite doing his job. Not all his carries were clearing up mess though some certainly were. You can get around those stats if your prop is dominant at the scrum but erm he wasn't close to being so.

England need more mobile physicality across the pack. Marler, Cole and Underhill may all struggle to keep their spots as we try to accomplish that.

Alot of Marlers carries were purposefully not going beyond the game line as he was carrying in defensive areas for better kicking angles tbf.

Personally I wouldn't be starting either prop maybe Marler given Genge was out but Borthwick wants set piece props first and foremost.

Defensive carries was once maybe twice. There were more around the middle of the pitch or in the opposition half where he was ineffective.

I agree Borthwick wants set piece props but Marler didn't deliver there either.

If Genge is fit for next weekend I'd go Genge and Obano. Give us some more physicality around the park and they are both competent scrummagers.

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Post by mountain man Sun 04 Feb 2024, 1:38 pm

The Welsh scrum shouldn't be too much of a challenge but Wales will definitely look to run England pack around. Their line out is poor so will likely kick to keep ball infield.
England will need props who can run more than picked for set piece.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 04 Feb 2024, 1:50 pm

Yeah can't imagine that there's going to be many if any changes for Wales. If Genge is back he'll move back to the bench but that's really it I think.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 04 Feb 2024, 2:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah can't imagine that there's going to be many if any changes for Wales. If Genge is back he'll move back to the bench but that's really it I think.

I don't know, Borthwick likes to pick his sides based on what the opposition threats so he might well mix the side up a little. Won't be wholesale changes but we might see some tweaks. Daly will be under threat, perhaps some adjustments at prop and maybe one in the backrow as I don't think they provided the level of physicality he would have wanted.

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