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England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24

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Good Golly I'm Olly
JuliusHMarx
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Post by king_carlos Sat 17 Feb 2024, 3:22 pm

I haven't seen a ball from today. Not sure I want to seeing the scorecard.

I woke up early for work, checked the score, saw the collapse, felt sad. Then didn't look again until after close.

It all looked so promising for a moment.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 17 Feb 2024, 3:56 pm

Pal Joey wrote:Poor Jimmy feeling the wrath of YasBall in that over, KP_F. Smile



I reckon Bazball works (at best) 50% of the time for about 40% of an innings. There's not really a great return in the overall scheme of test cricket. The back end collapses practically negate all the good work done up at the top end. And much sooner too giving the opposition a leg up. These types of performances clearly highlight some monumental flaws in this approach.

For the love of affable Jimmy Wink the only Aussie here broke his periodic silence & I see set the board alight.
That one over Anderson did look like an old man bullied by a teenager, was recognized by Stokes & removed. But Anderson still puling his weight and keeps coming back to trouble Indians.

Bazballing & Stokes' positive play in general is more good than bad. It becomes bad when it turns into a car with just "One-Gear-One-Mode" and when they start believing their own hype.
In moderation & selectively, it would yield them a lot more.
Where it's good and infact outstanding is it's turned struggling to average 30ish type Crawley, Duckett & Pope into occasional matchwinners and propped up their averages also.
These batters predetermine/ stand besides the line of ball/ stand and hit thru/ hack, hoik, slash and end up delivering quite more than they would with proper cricket....and about 1 in 10 innings they produce a run a ball BIG innings.

Where its not good is where batsmen with proper technique like Stokes, especially Root an Woakes when in side try to ape the ugly limited batters.
Where its also not in their own interest is when their hacker have given them a platform and changing gears, switching to a "proper" mode will get them further.
And in addition to having need based couple of gears they need to have a couple of more modes based in match situation.
Such as
Tomorrow India might well bat almost two sessions, declare just before tea and give Eng 600 to chase or Survive in 4 sessions ( 125 overs)
On this pitch not, shutter drop but with positive normal cricket, batting out 4 sessions to a draw is about a 20% probability
Going madly to chase 600ish is ZERO possibility & the team should be able to switch to normal mode.
Instead of committing sure shot suicide believing their own hype and then defend it with flimsy
"We are here to entertain / This is how we play" Whistle






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Post by KP_fan Sat 17 Feb 2024, 4:23 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I don't see why England should have accumulated today.

They play this way, they have to back it and see it through. It seems some are very selective. When Bazball works, yay it's amazing, all credit to England. When it doesn't work, suddenly there's retrospective cries of 'well, England should have been a bit more cautious'.

You can't have it both ways. You can't praise Bazball, when it gets England to 200/2, and then denigrate it when it goes awry. Classic example being Vaughan, who praised Bazball to the heavens, and said even if England go two down v Australia then they should carry on with the aggression. Then, when England actually went two down, Vaughan was suddenly urging caution and berating England for being reckless.

Bazball hasn't improved the fortunes of the England team. They're exactly where they have been for most of the past decade - probably the best of the rest overall, but short of the top table occupied by Australia and India (and also briefly occupied by NZ for a few years). Not sure if the Bazball cult will wake up to this reality, though, after this series.

Another superb century for Jaiswal in this innings. Unlike Pope's effort, Jaiswal can be expected to get future success with the bat in the subcontinent, and so it has shown here. 450+ lead tomorrow then declare? At this rate they might have time to push it beyond 500 and still give themselves enough time to bowl England out.

Agree with you on Vaughan, Agnew et al who are wish washing with the wind on their opinions. Not surprising with Vaughan, who by the day I wonder how on earth he was such a good captain, when he talks such continuous nonsense as a pundit.

Do take issue with your continued talk about Bazball not improving the fortunes of the England team - has it made them the best team in the world, absolutely not, they still don't have a spinner worth a damn and the batting talent is still a far cry from the late 2000/early 2010s outfit we could put out. But, they had, and were dipping further and further down under Root/Silverwood (whilst playing absolutely miserable cricket for the most part), and have been restored to a good level under Stokes/McCullum, whilst playing in some damn entertaining test matches.

Can these two push them beyond this?
Yet to be seen - I don't think any reasonable pundit or fan truly expected much in this tour (in fact having won one test pretty much matches my expectation, and they will have a shot to surpass that in the final two games)...I think they deserve a lot of credit for last winters 3-0 win in Pakistan. Unfortunately they did miss an opportunity in this past summer in the home Ashes.
Real tests upcoming in the next two winters I would say. A three test series against NZ in NZ (winning that would be a certain sign of progress, with how poor we are historically in NZ) and then of course the Ashes in Australia, which probably lines up to be Stokes's final hurrah in late 2025.

I just think England are around the same level today as they were under Root/Silverwood.

The perception has been coloured by the fixture list. The last 17 tests under Root, 14 of them were against top table nations (8 away?), 3 against the West Indies (a place England have never done well in).  Naturally, England struggled, and that's all people seem to remember.

12 of the first 13 tests that Stokes was in charge for were against nations outside that top table. England did well. Naturally. But it's forgotten that under Root England used to regularly beat those nations outside the top bracket. I think Root's captaincy record against teams outside of the top bracket, which was Australia, India and NZ at the time, was 19 wins from 30 tests and 7 series wins out of 10.

Do I think Stokes/McCullum would have done much better than Root/Silverwood in those 17 tests? No, not really. And we're seeing it plain as day now. England drew 2-2 with Australia last year, exactly the same as under Root, and against an arguably weaker Australian side in 2023 with the loss of Lyon. England were 2-1 down after 3 tests in India in 2021 under Root, and it's looking as though it'll be 2-1 India after 3 tests this year. Difference being that this is undoubtedly a weaker Indian side than 2021, with the absences of Shami, Kohli, Pant, Rahul, plus losing Jadeja for a test, and England's victory in 2021 was far more convincing than this year. And do we think England will even get close to Australia in 25/26? Doubtful.

Bazball hasn't worsened things. It's kept things largely the same results wise with a new, glossy coat of paint. And that's fine. But let's not pretend it's a new age.

England should be looking to beat NZ in NZ later this year. NZ have declined a lot and struggled to win many test series since winning the WTC. Mind you, England should have won the series against them last year. The trip to Australia will be the usual write off, alas. Also got Pakistan away later this year, I think before the NZ tour. Everything's squeezed due to the Champions Trophy in early 2025.

You've done your search on win/ loss ratio and records so I won't argue.
The only thing that you have not mentioned and its a BIG factor that goes sin favor of Bazballing is the nature of wins.....the chased 4th innings totals about 3 to 4 big ones....which conventional wisdom would defy even pursuing
And the come back from a 200 run deficit in T1 to win.
Stokes loves situations to show off odds are stacked against me and yet I will pull it off...wants to keep repeating Headingley, WC Final now as a team and have done it quite a few times more as a Captain.
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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 4:12 am

KP_fan might be ready to let Duty's fixture list stuff stand but I won't give him a free pass on it Smile

Root's overall record as skipper isn't rubbish. Neither great nor awful ...and frankly since the Flower/Strauss/Cook days England had generally been consistently decent but a little short of top drawer : practically unbeatable at home , not much use away (with the odd and strangely variable exceptions of Sri Lanka and SA ). But in 2021 it was quite obvious the Root regime was out of puff.

Covid probably didn't help. And one or two players who'd been introduced to try and improve the side had just not been able to achieve consistent success. But the main problem was that confidence had been sucked out of the team as a group - the old faithfuls even looking jaded , and some others seeming no longer sure they wanted to be part of it any more. McCullum and Stokes changed that overnight.

No magic new players . Just reintroduced a bit of enjoyment and a lot of belief. And bingo : three-nil over NZ who just a year ago had won the WTC ; levelled the postponed India series with a remarkable chase ; and then come back from a nasty shock loss to beat SA 2-1. And then a 3-0 win in Pakistan which nobody had ever done before... Is anyone seriously suggesting the previous outfit could have done this ?

As Olly says , still far from perfect. And I think a bit of overconfidence and carelessness crept in then which caused them to miss a series win in NZ - and maybe contributed to the early losses in the Ashes series. Needs more work , sure. But unlike the supine manner in which they'd been accepting defeat in the previous year or so , the team has only once been really hammered (by SA) - other losses all coming after proper battles and still in some doubt until nearly the end.

It is a very big improvement. They have a challenge ahead to maintain that improvement - not least next week as they strive to come back from what looks like being their worst defeat since that SA game ; but their record suggests we can at least have some hopes they might have another bounce back in them...

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 4:28 am

Anyway on to the game...and I have to confess I'm a little less throbbing with anticipation of this morning's action : does look likely to be a ritual Indian progression to a declaration setting England an impossible target mid afternoon. Lead is 339 already - Kuldeep even hitting Hartley for six - so they should have plenty by then.

Stats on the length of the spinners just came up : all the England lads have delivered a far higher % of short or over pitched balls than any of the Indians. Hardly surprising given the difference in experience : but it highlights one of the problems facing England in competing in these parts...length is such a key factor anywhere .

So looking like a tough day at the office . But I will try and stick it out and faithfully report on the events as they unwind...suggest England fans probably just get all the sleep they want because they're unlikely to miss anything too inspiring...

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 4:36 am

No joy for Anderson or Hartley yet. Pitch playing pretty easily so far today , and even Kuldeep looks fairly comfortable.. 228/2 . Perhaps time to persuade Gill to attempt a reverse scoop ?

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 4:52 am

Kuldeep has been batting like a batsman dancing down the track twice to hit straight sixes, his first and 2nd in internationals
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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 4:55 am

And Eng review one that always looked of the face of bat and on Kuldeep
And I think some eng fielders pointed that
Only 1 review left now for Eng.

Gill is in zone when he starts playing short arm jabs and nails cover drives without moving his feet
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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 5:00 am

Eng miss a review and then Gill gets himself.R.O
India has an alarming rate of run outs per test match here
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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 5:01 am

Oh dear...not only is Kuldeep batting like Tendulkar (26 from 59) but now they've wasted a review on him ...a clear inside edge making that lbw appeal hopeless. And now they've got a better shout against the same player ...which , yes , was absolutely plumb ! How Wilson didn't give that is beyond me ...but they weren't game to take their last review England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24 3181402168

In better news for the tourists, Gill has been run out for 91 on the very next ball ... Everyone doing silly things in the space of five minutes 246/3

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 5:03 am

Ashwin will be back with team around lunch time today
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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 5:09 am

Bad luck for Gill to get out like that just short of his hundred. Good fielding by Stokes at mid on ; but Kuldeep didn't call and dithered around two steps forward , hesitate etc... Think he rather cooked his partner there and maybe ought to have sacrificed himself instead of turning back and leaving Gill stranded. But it all happens so quickly. One of the perils of batting with a Night Hawk Wink

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 5:12 am

Ashwin back sounds like good news ! Jaiswal obviously fit again because he's resumed his innings so all going smoothly for India...quite apart from a handy 375 run lead Wink

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 5:27 am

Kuldeep falls now...nicely caught by Root at slip off Rehan for a very accomplished 27. At 258/4 Sarfaraz is presumably coming in with a licence to attack Smile

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 5:29 am

Kuldeep's.dismissla looked like a Bump ball...only for replay to show its was a clear edge
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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 5:32 am

The effect of roller subsided and pitch been doing things like bounce and more spjn in last 3 or 4 overs
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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 6:00 am

Three hundred up now ... Declaration shouldn't be too long after lunch. Declaration is all England have been looking for this morning...most un-Stokes like but as he clearly doesn't want to over tax Wood and Anderson it is understandable.

Jaiswal having quite a series...140 from 179 now : will be interesting to see how he performs overseas but he's done it brilliantly here. Some good knocks from Gill , Jadeja and Rohit ; but he's been the pick of them all.

So it's lunch now at 307/4. No , one more over...

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 6:05 am

And no slowing down as Jaiswal launches poor Rehan for another six. New ball due and maybe just as well as that one has been getting rather battered lately...

One good thing is they've bowled thirty one overs this morning which is remarkable by modern standards . 118/2 in the session and the lead stands at 440.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 6:05 am

A runout and a night watchman wkts for Eng.
India did 118....and kuldeep being there slowed india down actually
Sarfaraz's batting is from retro era of VVSL, Azhar, vengsarkar, Gavaskar.
Ind had the chance in first two tests to bat Eng out but couldn't
They should be able to do so here.
I would bat 25 overs more add 125, get close to 600 and give Eng to bat 3 or 4 overs before tea.

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 6:08 am

Pitch will do even more when Kuldeep & his pals get their hands on it Wink

Also with 500 or whatever lead they'll have fielders round the bat. Not expecting much blocking from Duckett and Crawley...

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 6:10 am

You want a SIX hundred lead KP_fan ?!!! I know Bazball can be scary but think that might be overkill Smile

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 6:16 am

alfie wrote:You want a SIX hundred lead KP_fan ?!!!   I know Bazball can be scary but think that might be overkill Smile

Consider that a tribute to the aura of Stokes' bazballing Very Happy
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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 6:26 am

I would also agree to around 600. India have plenty left in the shed to swing out, there is plenty of time left and to be honest, England can either chase down 600 comfortably or be out for 150 these days.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 6:56 am

Jaiswal over his normal innings is a run a vall batter
When asked to go for it....he becomes 2 runs a ball batter
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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 6:57 am

This is massive from Jaiswal, three 6's in a row...

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 6:59 am

@PJ the young kid bullying Jimmy again today Very Happy
3 SIXES in a row and 21 runs off that Anderdon over.
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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:01 am

Anderson's last 2 overs to Jaiswal have gone for 41 runs
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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:05 am

As much as I dislike seeing England getting humped like this, it is brilliant to watch batters play with such freedom.

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Post by Pal Joey Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:10 am

KP_fan wrote:@PJ the young kid bullying Jimmy again today Very Happy
3 SIXES in a row and 21 runs off that Anderdon over.

Brutal batting... Jaiswal is so cool too when he goes about it.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:15 am

Eng won a test , fought hard in second, but around exactly the mid point of the series it appears
Wheels have come off Eng's carriage
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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:16 am

Ha,,,been for a walk and missed some batting pyrotechnics , I see...

Just in time to see England burn their last review on a fruitless catch appeal which actually came off Sarafaz's arm. Consistently wrong on drs , they've been. Not that it matters now.

Lead nearing 500. How many do they want ? Or is it partly about wrecking the bowlers - mentally and physically - for the next game ?

I'd be declaring once Jaiswal gets crosses 200.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:22 am

I think I read somewhere that Root has bowled more overs this series than he has scored runs?

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:23 am

KP_fan getting very confident about the series result now , eh ? Some justification I guess : the wheels do seem to be off the chariot today ; but I don't think you should assume they can't be fitted back on next week. This side has managed to come back from reverses once or twice lately...this will be a real test for their character , I will concede. But we will see.

They aren't coming back to win this one , that's for sure Wink

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:26 am

Hi eirebilly...yes Root has been overworked with the ball all right. Not having a fun trip I'm afraid as he drops a simple c&b ...

Damaged finger again today , can't be helping.

Hard to watch this , as an England supporter. But Jaiswal has been excellent thumbsup

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:28 am

Actually enjoying this to be fair alfie. Jaiswal has been brutal.

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:31 am

Missed a lot of the action yesterday, but a good comeback from India. Siraj and Kuldeep led the efforts in the absence of the now returning R Ashwin. And Jaiswal and Gill leading the way with the bat.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:32 am

alfie wrote:KP_fan getting very confident about the series result now , eh ?  Some justification I guess : the wheels do seem to be off the chariot today ; but I don't think you should assume they can't be fitted back on next week. This side has managed to come back from reverses once or twice lately...this will be a real test for their character , I will concede. But we will see.

They aren't coming back to win this one , that's for sure Wink

Regardless of rhe brave face responses that Eng will.put out this is a psychological denting.
And yup confirm your other point ...India will drag this well past the fist hour to try and pummel Eng mentally and wear their bowlers physically in addition to a 600 run target.
Don't think Anderson can turn around in 3 days
Root will be tired,  if he has to come out to bat today
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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:34 am

😀. Don't think the England bowlers are enjoying it...

Have to feel for Patidar - out for a duck before all this carnage. Even the night watchman had a bit of an innings - and Sarfaraz could hardly have come in in a better situation for his style of play.

Jaiswal 197...

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:41 am

Jaiswal in some ways, reminds one of Virender Sehwag. The kind of impact that he can have on bowling lineups. Sehwag could go from ball one and played more shots on the carpet particularly against pace, Jaiswal loves to hit it in the air a bit more and can do that to the quicker bowlers as well. And like Sehwag, he likes his big test hundreds. All 3 so far, have been 150+.

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:41 am

Double ton for Jaiswal, his 2nd of the series. Sarfaraz gets his 2nd 50 of the match too.

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:41 am

Yes KP_fan it will indeed be hard for Anderson to reset quickly : which won't displease India. One of the reasons I was annoyed with England's collapse yesterday : going without his usual control will hurt (not that he's had much control today !) and forcing him back into action so quickly in this second innings was not a good idea. Not great for Wood either.

Sarfaraz fifty. Pretty good but I'm not getting carried away yet as this innings was almost a free hit.

Jaiswal gets his second 200 clapclapclapclapclapclapclap

Outstanding effort. Move over , Kohli Smile

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:43 am

Now Jaiswal hits his 12th 6 of the innings, equaling Wasim Akram.

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:47 am

Rohit seems to be getting ready to call in the batters.
Think India should bat on a while longer. 538 is already a lot of runs, but this is a good time to keep the England lads on the field, put in some more miles in the legs for their batters and bowlers including Root and Anderson. Will be handy later on...

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:47 am

Batting on after drinks... Won't be much longer ; but good psychology to keep the England bats waiting a bit . Unlike Manchester , don't need to worry about rain Wink

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:49 am

Rohit might settle for 550.
Think he should keep going for another half hour, get whatever more...

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:51 am

Lead goes pass 550 as Sarfaraz climbs into Rehan's legspin.

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:52 am

So there it is...lead off 556 should be sufficient 😀

That was brutal.

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 7:55 am

Yes. Rohit's had enough. Should have given Sarfaraz an opportunity to go for that hundred. Could also have waited for the pitch to take a bit more of sun, a bit more pounding. Could have given Ashwin more time too. In terms of runs, if England can get this, then well they deserve it! But still, considering other factors, not the smartest from Rohit.

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Post by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 8:12 am

Funny , really. Just a few short years ago , India would have probably been thinking they'd need plenty of time to bowl England out , and anything over 400 was ample so the declaration would have come rather earlier. But with this England team they are secure in the knowledge that they have no hope of batting four sessions and won't even attempt it. Even if Crawley and Duckett blast off they've a monster cushion so can seek wickets ... All just means this is only going one way , just a question of when.

From England's POV , might as well tell the batsmen "don't worry , you're all playing again next week , just go for it as your instincts suggest" and hope to at least entertain the mob for a while. Maybe with Atherton , Amiss , Cook , Boycott etc , a team might seek to defend for 130 overs ; but this lot don't have that sort of skill set... Which at least takes the tension out of it .

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 8:22 am

R Ashwin's not yet spotted. What on earth was the rush for Rohit?
England openers trying to settle in before launching...

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