England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

The red though was wrong and was correctly rescinded so that can be discounted.

mountain man wrote:The red though was wrong and was correctly rescinded so that can be discounted.

It was downgraded to a yellow as I recall. It was a harsh decision, but it still happened in part because of Steward’s lack of agility.

It is something he can improve dramatically if he works on his biomechanics. He probably needs to learn how to take shorter, faster steps when accelerating or when he might need to change direction. He hasn’t shown much sign of doing it so far, but it is possible. More agility would also probably lead to improvements in other aspects of his game - he would be able to commit later to his defensive positioning, and wouldn’t get wrong footed as often as has happened in the past.

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:The red though was wrong and was correctly rescinded so that can be discounted.

It was downgraded to a yellow as I recall. It was a harsh decision, but it still happened in part because of Steward’s lack of agility.

It is something he can improve dramatically if he works on his biomechanics. He probably needs to learn how to take shorter, faster steps when accelerating or when he might need to change direction. He hasn’t shown much sign of doing it so far, but it is possible. More agility would also probably lead to improvements in other aspects of his game - he would be able to commit later to his defensive positioning, and wouldn’t get wrong footed as often as has happened in the past.

I think people sometimes forget how valuable Steward was to England when he first came up.  He was a rock back there which had been missing with England for some time.  And there is no question Steward has been working to improve other aspects of his game.  

I think the gap between Furbank, who has also been working to improve his overall game, and Steward is not quite so large.  It took a little while for international teams to work out how to play against Steward but they did.  As they do for almost every player who comes up.  Furbank will have to deal with the second-time-around scenario where teams now have a video record and will take steps to take away his strengths.   Of course that could be said about almost every player.  

There are a couple of things working against Steward at the moment.  First is the style of play that England appears to be adopting.  Steward is not that attacking type of player nor is he a second receiver.  And his skills in those areas are not going to develop to be better than someone who has played 10 for club and country (though if it comes to that England will likely have other issues to worry about).  But he brings other things to the table, and his skill at the back can cause some teams to alter their game plans, which is a win even before the ball is even kicked off.  And with ball in hand he is a strong runner into traffic. The other thing working against Steward, as has already been said, is agility and acceleration.  Acceleration is easier to develop than overall agility, though certainly related.  And clearly, Steward is working hard and is making progress.    

I remember back when I first got involved with sports and orthopaedic medicine, I was very interested to see a number of American Footballers and Basketballers were training with the NYC Ballet due to ballet dancers being some of the best - and most agile - athletes in the world.  A lot of those learnings have been adopted throughout American sport.  Oddly I see much less of that with sports teams from outside the America.

nlpnlp wrote:Freddie has had 1 red and 2 or 3 yellow's, and was lucky not to get 1 or 2 more.  He has the turning ability of an oil tanker.  Plus his tackling is surprisingly poor for someone of his size.  

What absolute garbage. The red card, which was correctly rescinded, was indecision. He neither commits to the tackle nor pulls out the way and as Keenan runs into him he turns his shoulder. His other yellow card this season was going for an over optimistic interception. Not the only one guilty of that, IFW the quickest and most agile England back got binned for the same thing in the last round of the Prem. Both of those I think are an experience thing.

As I said he gets flat footed at times and as he weighs I around 2 stone more than most of the other fullbacks it's tougher for him to recover.

His tackling ability is very good. I refer to the tackle on Italian 8 in the 6N. Levelled a free running backrow with such force he couldn't continue. Because he's so secure at the back there does seem to be some odd expectation that he'll make tackles that none of his contemporaries would either.

With that red, Obano may well be out of contention for the summer tour.

Barbeary has also lost the chance to show what he can do in a major game.

Steward was great until teams worked out how to to exploit his lack of mobility. He hasn’t adapted.

Anyway, in other news, Fin Baxter’s chances of touring have just gone up.

Poorfour wrote:Steward was great until teams worked out how to to exploit his lack of mobility. He hasn’t adapted.

Like against Italy and Wales in the 6N when he was one of our best players?

Furbank's been selected because he gives our attack a different dimension. Which has been worth so far. Allows us to have flyhalf and fullback as deep lying playmakers when not in possession. Opens up the field for counter attack and kicking potential. Same as when we used Marcus Smith back there.

Furbank playing really well today, doing his chances no harm.

Rugby Fan wrote:With that red, Obano may well be out of contention for the summer tour.

Barbeary has also lost the chance to show what he can do in a major game.

Don't think it will effect Barbearys chances but does the ban obano will get include international or is it only prem games?

Even though many might not see this as a critical tour...there's some big decisions to make on some young challengers....and I think he needs to be getting some of those right this tour...even just to continue to progress in next seasons 6n...

Geordie wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:With that red, Obano may well be out of contention for the summer tour.

Barbeary has also lost the chance to show what he can do in a major game.

Don't think it will effect Barbearys chances but does the ban obano will get include international or is it only prem games?

It'll include any games he's eligible for re Obano. So no chance he'll tour this summer unless he gets a ridiculously lucky one week ban.

Pretty much confirms it as Marler, Baxter and Rodd you'd have thought. Of the three only Rodd can produce a passable imitation of Genge so there might have to be a rethink in what we do with the props as we've tended to go with a mobile paired with a set piece prop.

Roger re Obano ban...

Yeah you expect that's the trio of Loosies.  Iyogun has a tough day at the office against Stuart when he came on.

I've bored people on here banging the drum for a long time but Ted Hill has to tour.

But that back row is just so competitive...

Hopefully Fin Smith and Langdon aren't bad injuries ...

I wonder what the crack is with Ford...if he might not travel

Geordie wrote:I wonder what the crack is with Ford...if he might not travel

Daily Mail says he is out of the tour with an achilles injury.

George Ford will miss England's tour matches with Japan and New Zealand, leaving Marcus Smith and Fin Smith in a straight shootout to be Steve Borthwick's No 10 this summer.

Ford has been in camp with England after his club side Sale were beaten by Bath in the Gallagher Premiership play-offs.

But Mail Sport understands the 31-year-old is suffering with an achilles injury which means he won't be part of the England squad which will be confirmed on Monday.

....It is understood Ford's Achilles problem is on the opposite leg to the one to which he suffered a serious rupture in the 2022 Premiership final.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Geordie wrote:I wonder what the crack is with Ford...if he might not travel

Daily Mail says he is out of the tour with an achilles injury.

George Ford will miss England's tour matches with Japan and New Zealand, leaving Marcus Smith and Fin Smith in a straight shootout to be Steve Borthwick's No 10 this summer.

Ford has been in camp with England after his club side Sale were beaten by Bath in the Gallagher Premiership play-offs.

But Mail Sport understands the 31-year-old is suffering with an achilles injury which means he won't be part of the England squad which will be confirmed on Monday.

....It is understood Ford's Achilles problem is on the opposite leg to the one to which he suffered a serious rupture in the 2022 Premiership final.

I was thinking Ford would travel, but we need to find out if Fin Smith has a serious injury or just a contusion.  If Fin is out, then Ford becomes really necessary.
But if it's in the Daily Mail, they might also report he is out with the clap.  

Confirmed by the England rugby Facebook page.

So its Fin v Marcus...unless Fin has an injury from Saturday.

Marcus to start?

So whose the back up 10 if no Ford, Fin Smith or Farrell?

Marcus starts, Furbank covers...not sure who else they would take...

Bailey?

I reckon Smith and Smith with Furbank as emergency cover is what'll happen.

Charlie Atkinson was in the first 19-man squad, then retained when the semi-finalists were added. That'd seem to put him in pole position for a touring spot if Fin misses out as well. I'm honestly not that convinced by Atkinson at 10. I think he's talented but wonder whether fullback might be the best spot for him.

There's no one from the Prem that I'd add ahead of Atkinson given the potential absentees though. I think he's more developed than Bailey. He's got a higher ceiling than Skinner. Shillcock is a better FB than FH. Barton impressed me at times in a poor side early in the season, but then missed most of Glaws rugby this year. Louie Johnson is even rawer than Atkinson.

Fergus Burke...? From what I've seen of both, I'd say Burke is the better 10 than Atkinson at this stage.

mountain man wrote:I reckon Smith and Smith with Furbank as emergency cover is what'll happen.

Yeah, agree. And likely Marcus gets the starts unless Borthwick gives Fin his run out against Japan and saves Marcus for the ABs.

One thing about Saints back line is they are mostly versatile. When Burger Odendaal went off injured, Freeman moved inside to 13 and Hendy went to the wing. When Fin went off, Furbank went to 10 (and was part of the winning try) and Hendy went to fullback.

Rob du Preez came to mind. Geordie meltdown incoming over that. I think he's tied to SA through the U20s though. He played for the SA U20s against Wales U20s in the 2013 JRWC. Both were their nations designated second team. So that ties him.

I say think because a journalist recently asked World Rugby for a clarification on whether Hanro Liebenberg could qualify for England and WR said he could after completing the 60 month residency. Hanro is tied by from the 2015 JRWC though. The SA U20s were their second designated side. Furthermore, from 2014 you didn't have to play against another designated second team to be tied if playing in the JRWC. If a team designated their U20s their second team, you played for them in the JRWC, then you were tied regardless of the oppositions designation. Hanro played in 2015, so as the rules are publicly available, he's definitely tied.

Then in 2018, WR stopped U20s from being designated second teams. Which was absolutely the right call IMO. It wasn't back dated though. So Hanro would still be tied. Except WR confirmed to a journalist he wasn't...

That can only really mean 3 things. The 2018 rule change has been back dated with no public announcement - seems unlikely but not impossible with WR. The WR employee who confirmed it to the journalist got it wrong - seems more likely, but then surely the journalist might've followed up and mentioned that by now...? Or, the SARU absolutely f***ed it with properly informing U20 players that they would be captured and keeping records of it. In which case, that would have widespread consequences for U20 cap ties going back years.

One person at WR messing up and the journalist not chasing it up again seems the most likely. Either way, something not yet satisfactorily chased up seems to be going on there with the bygone U20 cap ties. I'd certainly say Rob du Preez is a more rounded 10 than Atkinson at this stage. Maybe England's mounting FH injuries might force one of the higher profile rugby journos to chase it up?

I'd disagree and say Orlando Bailey is a better bet than Atkinson. His game management and kicking games are significantly better. Atkinson can't be relied upon to reliably kick to touch or at goal.

Borthwick clearly likes something about what Charlie Atkinson brings. The advantage of having Furbank in the side is Atkinson wouldn't have to do much in the way of kicking for touch or at goal.

Not sure there's much point capping a good club level utility back like Rob du Perez. Furbank is already good emergency cover. Take a youngster who'll develop in the squad. Fergus Burke isn't a bad idea. At 24 he's got the right age profile, his form has been good since the return from injury, he'll be a starting 10 in the Prem next season and he'll also have the inside line on the ABs.

king_carlos wrote:I say think because a journalist recently asked World Rugby for a clarification on whether Hanro Liebenberg could qualify for England and WR said he could after completing the 60 month residency. Hanro is tied by from the 2015 JRWC though. The SA U20s were their second designated side. Furthermore, from 2014 you didn't have to play against another designated second team to be tied if playing in the JRWC. If a team designated their U20s their second team, you played for them in the JRWC, then you were tied regardless of the oppositions designation. Hanro played in 2015, so as the rules are publicly available, he's definitely tied.

Then in 2018, WR stopped U20s from being designated second teams. Which was absolutely the right call IMO. It wasn't back dated though. So Hanro would still be tied. Except WR confirmed to a journalist he wasn't...  

That can only really mean 3 things. The 2018 rule change has been back dated with no public announcement - seems unlikely but not impossible with WR. The WR employee who confirmed it to the journalist got it wrong - seems more likely, but then surely the journalist might've followed up and mentioned that by now...? Or, the SARU absolutely f***ed it with properly informing U20 players that they would be captured and keeping records of it. In which case, that would have widespread consequences for U20 cap ties going back years.

One person at WR messing up and the journalist not chasing it up again seems the most likely. Either way, something not yet satisfactorily chased up seems to be going on there with the bygone U20 cap ties. I'd certainly say Rob du Preez is a more rounded 10 than Atkinson at this stage. Maybe England's mounting FH injuries might force one of the higher profile rugby journos to chase it up?

Did that convo happen recently? Was there much truth in Borthwick wanting to cap four SA players? BJVR, Jacques Vermeulen, Hanro and Green were mentioned. I've never heard that the capture rule is going to be backdated/quashed. Rob du Preez looks too average to be an international, but those other 4 are decent.

mikey_dragon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I say think because a journalist recently asked World Rugby for a clarification on whether Hanro Liebenberg could qualify for England and WR said he could after completing the 60 month residency. Hanro is tied by from the 2015 JRWC though. The SA U20s were their second designated side. Furthermore, from 2014 you didn't have to play against another designated second team to be tied if playing in the JRWC. If a team designated their U20s their second team, you played for them in the JRWC, then you were tied regardless of the oppositions designation. Hanro played in 2015, so as the rules are publicly available, he's definitely tied.

Then in 2018, WR stopped U20s from being designated second teams. Which was absolutely the right call IMO. It wasn't back dated though. So Hanro would still be tied. Except WR confirmed to a journalist he wasn't...  

That can only really mean 3 things. The 2018 rule change has been back dated with no public announcement - seems unlikely but not impossible with WR. The WR employee who confirmed it to the journalist got it wrong - seems more likely, but then surely the journalist might've followed up and mentioned that by now...? Or, the SARU absolutely f***ed it with properly informing U20 players that they would be captured and keeping records of it. In which case, that would have widespread consequences for U20 cap ties going back years.

One person at WR messing up and the journalist not chasing it up again seems the most likely. Either way, something not yet satisfactorily chased up seems to be going on there with the bygone U20 cap ties. I'd certainly say Rob du Preez is a more rounded 10 than Atkinson at this stage. Maybe England's mounting FH injuries might force one of the higher profile rugby journos to chase it up?

Did that convo happen recently? Was there much truth in Borthwick wanting to cap four SA players? BJVR, Jacques Vermeulen, Hanro and Green were mentioned. I've never heard that the capture rule is going to be backdated/quashed. Rob du Preez looks too average to be an international, but those other 4 are decent.

Yeah, recent article from James While. None of it came from Borthwick though. Just While speculating on some Prem players who might become EQP on residency. He checked with WR on some and they apparently confirmed they could qualify under residency. Which makes no sense with Hanro and Vermuelen unless the rules have changed with no announcement. Nothing further has come from it though.

king_carlos wrote:Rob du Preez came to mind. Geordie meltdown incoming over that.

Oh dear lord.....

king_carlos wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I say think because a journalist recently asked World Rugby for a clarification on whether Hanro Liebenberg could qualify for England and WR said he could after completing the 60 month residency. Hanro is tied by from the 2015 JRWC though. The SA U20s were their second designated side. Furthermore, from 2014 you didn't have to play against another designated second team to be tied if playing in the JRWC. If a team designated their U20s their second team, you played for them in the JRWC, then you were tied regardless of the oppositions designation. Hanro played in 2015, so as the rules are publicly available, he's definitely tied.

Then in 2018, WR stopped U20s from being designated second teams. Which was absolutely the right call IMO. It wasn't back dated though. So Hanro would still be tied. Except WR confirmed to a journalist he wasn't...  

That can only really mean 3 things. The 2018 rule change has been back dated with no public announcement - seems unlikely but not impossible with WR. The WR employee who confirmed it to the journalist got it wrong - seems more likely, but then surely the journalist might've followed up and mentioned that by now...? Or, the SARU absolutely f***ed it with properly informing U20 players that they would be captured and keeping records of it. In which case, that would have widespread consequences for U20 cap ties going back years.

One person at WR messing up and the journalist not chasing it up again seems the most likely. Either way, something not yet satisfactorily chased up seems to be going on there with the bygone U20 cap ties. I'd certainly say Rob du Preez is a more rounded 10 than Atkinson at this stage. Maybe England's mounting FH injuries might force one of the higher profile rugby journos to chase it up?

Did that convo happen recently? Was there much truth in Borthwick wanting to cap four SA players? BJVR, Jacques Vermeulen, Hanro and Green were mentioned. I've never heard that the capture rule is going to be backdated/quashed. Rob du Preez looks too average to be an international, but those other 4 are decent.

Yeah, recent article from James While. None of it came from Borthwick though. Just While speculating on some Prem players who might become EQP on residency. He checked with WR on some and they apparently confirmed they could qualify under residency. Which makes no sense with Hanro and Vermuelen unless the rules have changed with no announcement. Nothing further has come from it though.

Hanro or Vermulen would be upgrades on Roots. Whether they'd accept the call up is another matter. I get the impression that Liebenburg is a proud South African and might respectfully decline.

Green is surely going to be in the Boks squad this summer so it'll probably be a moot point. BJVR would be a brilliant addition to the squad.

It's not even the selections I'm bothered by. It's a clarification from WR on why they've given a journalist confirmation of something that goes completely against the regs currently available.

Blues lock Patrick Tuipulotu is out of contention for the England matches with an injury. NZ pundits are starting to get concerned about the available stock of second rows.

Half wonder whether they would look at Brad Shields in an emergency. He's only 193 cm but might be a jack-of-all trades. He's qualified again for NZ as his last England cap was ages ago.

No Ted Hill, Pearson or Barbeary which is a bit odd.  Three fullbacks in the squad.  Qghre as 3rd choice hooker.

Forwards
Fin Baxter (Harlequins, uncapped)

Dan Cole

Alex Coles

Chandler Cunningham-South

Ben Curry

Tom Curry

Theo Dan

Alex Dombrandt

Ben Earl

Charlie Ewels

Jamie George – captain

Joe Heyes

Maro Itoje

Joe Marler

George Martin

Gabriel Oghre (Bristol Bears, uncapped)

Bevan Rodd

Ethan Roots

Will Stuart

Sam Underhill

Backs
Joe Carpenter (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Fraser Dingwall

Immanuel Feyi-Waboso

Tommy Freeman

George Furbank

Ollie Lawrence

Alex Mitchell

Luke Northmore (Harlequins, uncapped)

Harry Randall

Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks, uncapped)  

Henry Slade

Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints, uncapped)

Fin Smith

Marcus Smith

Ben Spencer

Freddie Steward

Is that a final squad or remaining "trial squad" ?

Maybe a few carrying niggles...that final was brutal.

How in the name of all the gods is Ted Hill not included? He is a perfect Lawes replacement.

carpet baboon wrote:How in the name of all the gods is Ted Hill not included? He is a perfect Lawes replacement.

Yet Ethan Roots is in?....

Roots but no Hill is a bit odd. Roots did well for first cap against Italy but not as impressive after.
Very happy to see Sleightholme in there.

As always with every squad though there will be some in/out who not everyone agrees with.

Langdon is the glaring absence to me. He's had a terrific season.

I'd have picked Pearson but I rate the other opensides highly, so not as surprised there.

Similar with Ewels ahead of Isiekwe. I'd narrowly take Isiekwe but to be fair to Ewels, I do think he's been good for Bath this season. I'd have been interested to try Tuima against Japan, but definitely not in NZ. The engine just isn't there yet to play the ABs on harder, faster pitches. Not even close. It probably makes sense to give him a full preseason working on S&C rather than 50 minutes against Japan.

Same again at SH. I'd pick JvP and Quirke as I think their ceilings are higher. Spencer and Randall have had decent Prem seasons, they're reasonable picks. IMHO, Randall showed where he's lacking in his previous chances though. I don't think there's been a single SH succeed long term at international level with such limited distance on his exits for years now. Italy had a brief period with Braley at 9 where they kicked exclusively off 10 and 15, but it was mostly s***e so they stopped pretty rapidly.

3 fullbacks but no Atkinson suggests that Furbank will be the 10 cover if Finn's niggle is an issue. I'm glad Carpenter got that 3rd spot. Good player IMO. Very happy with Roebuck still being included after the Six Nations and Sleightholme coming in.

It feels like a good squad overall. I'm excited to see how they go. There are few notable injuries though. Ford, Chessum, Genge. Not massive in terms of the numbers but all key players from the Six Nations game plan.

I agree KC, Langdon has been the best hooker in the premiership all season. What happens if George or Dan get injured or have I missed someone there. Also agree with Randall/JvP, I think that Spencer showed what he can do on Saturday, but he was definitely pushing his luck with the offside

very disappointed to see Itoje and George selected even if I am not surprised. Player welfare is completely ignored for the sake of short term results. Those two have not enjoyed a summer off in goodness knows how long. RWC, Lions, Aus summer tour etc. I understand that injuries to other players don't make these decisions easier (Chessum, Hill) but the players, clubs and country would all benefit longer term if they had a chance to rest body and mind. In the meantime we should be finding out about lots of other players with bags of potential before we go undefeated in the Autumn. Ewels, Martin, Coles, Isiekwe would be fine for the 2nd row and Langdon should be covering George. Davison instead of Cole and Obano instead of Marler would have been good as well. This summer is not life and death.

Oghre is the third hooker, WPI. He has been decent for Bristol this season to be fair. I'd have picked Langdon though.

Langdon is injured KC - blew his shoulder out in the final....

Ah, I missed that. Real shame. Cheers, GF.

It sounds like Langdon wasn't too badly hurt but Borthwick decided not to take anyone who wouldn't be immediately available. There's not much room in the schedule for new squad members to catch up with training before the first Test.

Incidentally, Tokyo is warm right now but we aren't at peak summer heat and humidity. Afternoon temperatures are between 26-30 degrees C, and we've had occasional rain. A typhoon went well south of us a week or so ago, which made it blustery in the city.

Forecasts this far out suggest cloudy weather, with a chance of rain, and a temperature of around 27 degrees.

Rugby Fan wrote:It sounds like Langdon wasn't too badly hurt but Borthwick decided not to take anyone who wouldn't be immediately available. There's not much room in the schedule for new squad members to catch up with training before the first Test.

Incidentally, Tokyo is warm right now but we aren't at peak summer heat and humidity. Afternoon temperatures are between 26-30 degrees C, and we've had occasional rain. A typhoon went well south of us a week or so ago, which made it blustery in the city.

Forecasts this far out suggest cloudy weather, with a chance of rain, and a temperature of around 27 degrees.  

Well thats good hes not too badly injured, but a shame hes missed out on a place after the season hes had. Hes an all action hooker, must be very much on SBs radar.

But it also makes sense with such a short tour...not taking anyone with niggles etc. And he gets to see what Oghre can offer...win win really.

Rugby Analyst has one off on a real tangent, selecting a squad for NZ which he sees developing into World Cup challengers. Includes overseas and currently injured players, so a lot of options aren't possible choices now.

He's got Ben Earl at inside centre.

So utterly pointless then really.

Bit of a fantasy 15?

mountain man wrote:So utterly pointless then really.

Bit of a fantasy 15?

Correct

Besides....Simmonds was a better 12 than Earl...so they got that wrong aswell.

mountain man wrote:So utterly pointless then really.

Bit of a fantasy 15?

Rich (Rugby Analyst) has had a "clear the decks" attitude for ages, which informs a lot of his videos. He doesn't really value experience very much.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:So utterly pointless then really.

Bit of a fantasy 15?

Correct

Besides....Simmonds was a better 12 than Earl...so they got that wrong aswell.

My goodness, we all know that. Not sure how he got that wrong. As long as he didn't leave out Phil Vickery.

I'd forgotten Kevin Sinfield is still on the coaching team for the summer tour.