Euro Finals Weekend

First topic message reminder :

Interesting to me is that the four finalists are from four different countries.  So one way or another we have a good weekend, and can satisfy the people who want to support the teams from their nation.  I am off work for the weekend, so looking forward to working in the garden (lugging mulch, cutting some bushes, and having a pint or two) and watching the Rugby.  Weather forecast for here is 86°F (30°C in French) so great day in the garden then relaxing in front of the tv nursing a Boddingtons. And a happy Boddington's to all...

Challenge Cup Teams:

Gloucester:
15 Santi Carreras, 14 Jonny May, 13 Chris Harris, 12 Seb Atkinson, 11 Ollie Thorley, 10 Adam Hastings, 9 Caolan Englefield, 8 Zach Mercer, 7 Lewis Ludlow (captain), 6 Ruan Ackermann, 5 Arthur Clark, 4 Freddie Clarke, 3 Fraser Balmain, 2 Seb Blake, 1 Jamal Ford-Robinson.
Replacements: 16 Santi Socino, 17 Mayco Vivas, 18 Kirill Gotovtsev, 19 Albert Tuisue, 20 Jack Clement, 21 Stephen Varney, 22 Max Llewellyn, 23 Josh Hathaway.

Sharks:
15 Aphelele Fassi, 14 Werner Kok, 13 Ethan Hooker, 12 Francois Venter, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Siya Masuku, 9 Grant Williams, 8 Phepsi Buthelezi, 7 Vincent Tshituka, 6 James Venter, 5 Gerbrandt Grobler, 4 Eben Etzebeth (captain), 3 Vincent Koch, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Ox Nche.
Replacements: 16 Fez Mbatha, 17 Ntuthuko Mchunu, 18 Hanro Jacobs, 19 Lappies Labuschagne, 20 Dylan Richardson, 21 Cameron Wright, 22 Curwin Bosch, 23 Eduan Keyter.

Date: Friday, May 24
Venue: Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, London
Kick-off: 20.00 (21.00 SA time; 19.00 GMT)
Expected weather: Sunny intervals and light winds from the South-West. Temperature will be 17°C at kick-off
Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant referees: Andrew Brace (Ireland), Pierre Brousset (France)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (France)

If you mean Toulouse - as a neutral and the game I watched so far - Leinster have been pinged for some stuff sure.....but there is a lot of stuff going on by them that probably also should be getting pinged that isn't.

I'd say its been pretty 50/50 on both sides for the stuff that is getting missed.....

But now Toulouse have scored this game might be over. That yellow card was a really bad one at the wrong time of the match.

Welshmushroom wrote:If you mean Toulouse - as a neutral and the game I watched so far - Leinster have been pinged for some stuff sure.....but there is a lot of stuff going on by them that probably also should be getting pinged that isn't.  

I'd say its been pretty 50/50 on both sides for the stuff that is getting missed.....

But now Toulouse have scored this game might be over.  That yellow card was a really bad one at the wrong time of the match.  

I'll never forgive Carley for what he did to Fiji at the world cup so I could be biased.

That's a rugby incident, play on. Naturally Carley goes for the red card.

That will even things up a bit

formerly known as Sam wrote:That's a rugby incident, play on. Naturally Carley goes for the red card.

He didn't see it. The TMO flagged it.

I have to say though....Dupont and Ntamack are best 9-10 combo in the game at the moment. If there is I havent seen them.....

10 I think is a problem for Leinster ever since Sexton retired. I don't rate Ross Byrne that much. He's a fairly vanilla fly half.

I always feel a player down in the forwards can always be negotiated. Back 3 cards usually get punished badly.

But Leinster need to punish them if they have the legs left.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Heaf wrote:Assume you meant Toulouse?

Yeah haha the drinks are flowing.

As it should be!

That's not really in the laws is it, there's no camera angle that shows the try so they've made a best guess. To overturn the on field decision you're supposed to have clear evidence.

formerly known as Sam wrote:That's a rugby incident, play on. Naturally Carley goes for the red card.

Red was harsh for me ...

Think we should break for the day, and come back for the second half of extra time tomorrow.

Heaf wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:That's a rugby incident, play on. Naturally Carley goes for the red card.

Red was harsh for me ...

If he'd done something intentionally dangerous I'd be all for the red but he's bound on to the ruck, stayed low and it's a late movement that's brought Healy's head up.

formerly known as Sam wrote:That's not really in the laws is it, there's no camera angle that shows the try so they've made a best guess. To overturn the on field decision you're supposed to have clear evidence.

I missed what Carley said when he referred it - I could hear him saying it was on the ground repeatedly so what did he ask the TMO to check?

Have to feel either Leinster win in Extra time or with the 4 kickers Tolouse have they win the kicks. Can't think of three kickers for Leinster which is what undid munster a few season ago. Toulouse I don't think missed any

I thought Lowe was stupid with the yellow and cost the game but Arnold displayed lunacy. Red or Yellow doesn't matter. If Toulouse lose this they can thank Arnold for that brain fart of a moment.

It's got drama by the truck load though and has been a good advert for European Rugby.

Ramos gets the penatly......Leinster will need a try to win this now i think....

Heaf wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:That's not really in the laws is it, there's no camera angle that shows the try so they've made a best guess. To overturn the on field decision you're supposed to have clear evidence.

I missed what Carley said when he referred it - I could hear him saying it was on the ground repeatedly so what did he ask the TMO to check?

On field no try as no clear grounding. The replays showed it was grounded but whether it was before or after the line who knows. Tempo said something about time stamps but in the end it was, you reckon he was over the line? Yeah. Ok award the try then. That's just not the law.

I'm sorry but Carley is simply unfit for purpose here. That's absolutely disgraceful

Dupont really has been outstanding today in defence and with his kicking. Leinster have done a good job stopping the attacking side (illegally at times) but he really is the best rugby player on the planet by a country mile...... whatever Toulouse are paying him - its not enough.....

Definitely least a yellow but can see why was red.

Reckless by Arnold.

Looked like head contact on Dupont at a clearout there.

Dupont wanted to try to run that out - why did Carley blow rather than let them play advantage?

Think that might be it...

He'd already blown.

Game over

Leinster are not rushing as much as they should be as they dont have time left....shouldnt be doing huddles at this stage in the game...

Heaf wrote:Dupont wanted to try to run that out - why did Carley blow rather than let them play advantage?

Carley called advantage. Not sure why he blew it up. Seemed like a typical play-on situation.

Toulouse deserved win. Brilliant match.

doctor_grey wrote:

Heaf wrote:Dupont wanted to try to run that out - why did Carley blow rather than let them play advantage?

Carley called advantage.  Not sure why he blew it up.  Seemed like a typical play-on situation.

It was only knock on advantage, Dupont was 15m behind the advantage line, on his own try line and outnumbered. Dupont was just killing time.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Heaf wrote:Dupont wanted to try to run that out - why did Carley blow rather than let them play advantage?

Carley called advantage.  Not sure why he blew it up.  Seemed like a typical play-on situation.

It was only knock on advantage, Dupont was 15m behind the advantage line, on his own try line and outnumbered. Dupont was just killing time.

But he's allowed to try and play it out surely - and who knows with Dupont he doesn't jink and go the length ...

This has been a very entertaining final. Leinster handling let them down in the first half. Toulouse have been relentless.

Great game

Well short on tries but a fascinating match even so ...

Toulouse defence today won them the match.....they were exceptional in that area..... Leinster just didnt have the answers to unlock them often enough.....

Cullen will have to regroup them now to see if they can salvage something with winning the URC if they can.....

The first half didn't do much for me. But as the second half got going, it was becoming virtually a proper test match. And the overtime was simply must watch sport. Two really good team going at it. High level sport as it should be.

Welshmushroom wrote:Toulouse defence today won them the match.....they were exceptional in that area..... Leinster just didnt have the answers to unlock them often enough.....

Cullen will have to regroup them now to see if they can salvage something with winning the URC if they can.....

I wonder when Cullen will make the call on Ross Byrne. It's an international team with a club level 10 steering the ship.

But that will be a harder proposition as well. South African teams have made the playoffs total dog fights since they joined.

I do think Leinster really have some weaknesses in their game that have crept in. I think they have issues at 10 and some other positions as well. The Barrett signing while excellent might not be what I have done. At this stage they really need another tighthead now that Big Al is off to France.

Well that was a cracker of a game.
Drama and entertainment for this neutral. Toulouse the better side - just

I thought the officials had a good game - and to me it was noticeable that Leinster were cleaner at the breakdown than they often are - perhaps 'cos Carley is quite tight on reffing the breakdown? No major wrong decisions that I saw.

Both teams played it clean and fair which considering how hard they played it was quite something. Lessor teams would have had more cards trying to match that intensity and physicality
Toulouse breakdown work won them that.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Toulouse defence today won them the match.....they were exceptional in that area..... Leinster just didnt have the answers to unlock them often enough.....

Cullen will have to regroup them now to see if they can salvage something with winning the URC if they can.....

I wonder when Cullen will make the call on Ross Byrne. It's an international team with a club level 10 steering the ship.

Jordie Barrett

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Toulouse defence today won them the match.....they were exceptional in that area..... Leinster just didnt have the answers to unlock them often enough.....

Cullen will have to regroup them now to see if they can salvage something with winning the URC if they can.....

I wonder when Cullen will make the call on Ross Byrne. It's an international team with a club level 10 steering the ship.

As a 10 and at his age profile he should be playing his best rugby around now. But as it is currently even a player like Costelow is miles better than him and he isnt the finished article yet either.....

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh but I don't think he would make a list of top 5 best 10's in the URC at the moment.

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Toulouse defence today won them the match.....they were exceptional in that area..... Leinster just didnt have the answers to unlock them often enough.....

Cullen will have to regroup them now to see if they can salvage something with winning the URC if they can.....

I wonder when Cullen will make the call on Ross Byrne. It's an international team with a club level 10 steering the ship.

Jordie Barrett

That would be a wild call - I thought Jordie has only played centre and full back. Maybe Cullen thought he was buying the other Barrett by mistake?

Great final. No disgrace losing to Toulouse who are pretty much the only club side to have almost as many test players as the Leinster franchise. Dupont with his diversion into Sevens seems to have got even better and plus Ntamack meant Gibson Park was outnumbered. The 6/2 split didn't work for Leinster.
Nothing wrong with any of Carley's decisions, it's just the calls refs don't make which are just as important and this game looked about 50/50 on those.

So normal trends resume, post La Rochelle and Exeter where the winning team has a test fly half and their game management in tight games being key.

England aren't short of back rows but Willis should get back into the premiership as soon as.

I doubt any team in the Premiership can afford him with the new contract Toulouse gave him. Especially as most of them are cutting numbers going into next year.

Maybe Willis might be tempted back for a season before the next World Cup so he can go to that but it will be a while now before you see him (if ever) in an England shirt. Unless the RFU relax the play at home policy. But I can't see them doing that as it would put a nail in the coffin for Premiership rugby....

I do wonder with Leinster if some of their players may be on the decline now....some of them haven't been as fantastic as they were the previous 2 seasons. Still playing at a excellent level but every player has their peak 2-3 years where they are playing at their absolute best.

Probably a bit to early to tell but next season will no doubt shed some light on some of those players. Still an amazing team all round mind you. But I do wonder if the Leinster team 2 years ago would have beaten this Toulouse team.

I do wonder with Leinster if some of their players may be on the decline now

I think it may be time for a bit of a rebuild for leinster. We may have seen the best of them - not as dominant in the URC this year either

I think this season Sexton was a big loss for them - and at 10 the others are not in the same league as he was. 10 always impacts your attack in some way or another.

But I do think there are 4 guys who don't quite look as good as they did a couple of seasons back. Conan, Furlong, Henshaw & van der Flier. Don't get me wrong they are all still very good players but I just wonder if they have had their peak.

Think Leinster missed Ringrose though (assuming he was injured). Last season I thought he was the best outside centre in Europe.

Was at the game. First of all, great stadium. Secondly, as long as there is a hole in my @r$e, Ross Byrne is not an international fly half. And pretty much all the Leinster fans I was chatting to before the game and during it agreed. The best compliment I heard was that he's a slow Ronan O'Gara.
And thirdly, the ref wasn't great. A bit harsher on Leinster I thought but not the reason for the defeat.

TJ wrote:

I do wonder with Leinster if some of their players may be on the decline now

I think it may be time for a bit of a rebuild for leinster.  We may have seen the best of them - not as dominant in the URC this year either

To be fair to Leinster a lot of sides are getting better in the URC. And it is getting harder every year.

You only have to look at Sharks recruitment for next year to realize, that almost every side (minus us Welsh of course) are making constant improvements to their squads. In the long run though I think that helps Leinster & Irish rugby.

There are obvious questions around knock out rugby time for them and that it is different to Pool or league formats when they dont have quite the same pressure on them. But to be fair to them only very few teams actually can beat them and those tend to be excellent sides as well.

Maine man wrote:Was at the game. First of all, great stadium. Secondly, as long as there is a hole in my @r$e, Ross Byrne is not an international fly half. And pretty much all the Leinster fans I was chatting to before the game and during it agreed. The best compliment I heard was that he's a slow Ronan O'Gara.
And thirdly, the ref wasn't great. A bit harsher on Leinster I thought but not the reason for the defeat.

For me the 2 main reasons I can pinpoint that probably cost Leinster was having Byrne at 10 and Ringrose not being available at 13. What Leinster really could do with is a Fly Half like Richie Mo'unga. Put someone like that next to Gibson-Park and you really are in business then....

There does to be a real shortage at the minute on quality 10's in world rugby. Even our Welsh fly half factory seems to have dried up of late.

At the very least Leinster need to start giving Harry Byrne more run outs because I think he is miles better than his brother. He might not have quite the kicking game just yet but is attacking game is streets ahead of his older brother.

And I don't think I'm saying anything new but it does need to be mentioned that DuPont is some talent