Things are looking brighter

After all the recent woes in Scottish rugby, some reasons to be cheerful:

• A new SRU Chairman, who seems to have some sensible ideas: Sir Moir Lockhead;
  
• A new SRU Chief Executive - a replacement for McKie with a better sense of what is required for the game in Scotland to develop;
  
• A commitment to a full-time 7s squad;
  
• A fairly radical restructuring of the league system to reflect current economic realities: League changes voted thru;
  
• Alan Lawson's appointment as a Vice-President to the SRU ;
  
• A better than expected showing from the U20s at the JWC;
  
• Restoration of the Museum of Scottish Rugby at Murrayfield: SRU Museum;
  
• Promotion for London Scottish to the RFU Championship.
  

Anything that I've missed?

Sir Moir Lockhead - cracking name at the very least!

New coach at Edinburgh is worth a mention. Bradley wouldn't have been my choice, but certainly can't be worse than Rob "dropping form players is how I make selections" Moffatt.

Visser soon becoming Scots qualified - will give us more cutting edge in the backs.

More depth to our playing options than ever before with the likes of Sale and Gloucester having Scots in their 1st XVs.

The fact that Richie Gray has a brother.

Just to pick up one of the options you mention, the committment to the 7s draws mixed emotions from me. I love it, don't get me wrong, and I think in this day and age where Scotland is increasingly producing big players but with little guile, 7s is a good option to have for our young players, and it also (to paraphrase Scott Hastings) requires players to perform the basic skills under a microscope, and basic skills have been on the wane in Scotland. However, with scarce resources, I do wonder whether 7s is the best way to invest the money. In recent times it's been a bit of a back water for Scottish talent, with only a few players of international standard getting involved. I'd like this to change, but until it does, I do query whether we get value for money out of it.

A lot to talk about here


League Structure
What is happening with the clubs is a high risk but potentialy high reward strategy. The biggest concern would be what happens to the players from the other teams that are discarded?

I suppose it would be easier to see clubs like Howe, Dunfermline, Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes merge to form a Fife team, but I'm not sure how players from respective clubs would feel about their team being dropped from the leagues.

I would not be suprised to see the standards rise because of this but a possible drop in playing numbers. It would lend itself to the rise in 2nd XV and 3rd XV teams getting better games and becoming more competative themselves.

Sir Moir Lockhead
i'll be very careful to appoint him as the Scottish Rugby messiah, still plenty of time for him to become a very naughty boy. Suffice to say after reading your article in the opening post he has the right idea. To quote the article directly :

"The 66-year-old, who retired as chief executive of FirstGroup in April, has been researching the game in a fashion unlike most before him. Simply turning up at Melrose Sevens this year - which he said opened his eyes to how rugby can attract full houses - was a major step forward from the departed chief executive Gordon McKie, who declined Melrose's invitation every year he worked at Murrayfield."

This shows me he has his own plans but has absolutly no problem following the lead of areas in the country that have a massive following.

He also seems to be keeping his plans (for better and for worse) close to his chest. Time will tell if he does a good job, but if he backs up what he is saying with actions, perhaps Scottish rugby will turn the proffesional corner.

The Exiles promotion is good for the game.

Fact our U20 did not get humiliated at the U20RWC work to be done but the foundations for success in the future will have been laid. They'll have learned a lot from the games they played in.

The fact big Vis will be Scottish qualified before th 6N fantastic too.

Glasgow will have a rough start to the season but I could see them having a better season. Hoepefully with Cusiter, Beattie and Morrison all having an injury free season.

Tim Visser and Max Evans is a serious set of wingers. Getting the ball to them will be the trouble.

Picking up on your last point Radge, I agree that Glasgow are heading for a torrid season, but given this is a "look on the bright side thread", the lack of signings at Glasgow is going to necessitate game time for some young and promising players.

According to most reports, Weir and Hogg were two stand out picks from the U20 JWC, and in my view there's good chance that both will be able to establish themselves at Glasgow next season at 10 and 15 respectively. I'm particularly interested in Weir next year. If he stays injury free and plays well whilst Jackson is at the WC, he could very well end up getting a full season at ML level, and some Scotland caps. All at the age of 20/21. For Hogg to be able to play regular rugby at 15 at his age, against the likes of Byrne, Kearney, Jones et al, would be a fantastic opportunity.

Then there's the likes of Low, Thompson, Welsh, Grant, Harley, Hunter and Dunbar, all of whom could get precious exposure next season.

I know these guys will mostly get experience of losing next season, and will struggle to show off their talents in the environment at Glasgow if the side is struggling, but even when the Borders were getting walloped week in week out, players like Brown, Cusiter and Walker still managed to emerge.

The Herald's take on the AGM: SRU AGM

I would add that Mark Bennett is coming on just fine and is being trained in one of the best academies in France. Sorry, but we kept p!ssing about and didn't deserve to keep him.

Does anyone have a view on how Bennett played in the U20 JWC? I didn't see Scotland play, but read that he was playing at 13. Didn't hear him mentioned much in the reports.

Scotlands biggest problems over the last few years have been from ten to thirteen.

There have been no standout performers.

Certainly non to rival the players of the past, Gregor Townsend, Craig Chalmers, Ian McGeechan, Graham Shield or Scot Hastings.

13 is less of an issue for us now I'd say. Ansbro is a pretty decent player, and behind him we can move Evans back to 13, put Sean Lamont at 13, recall Grove, or use either De Luca or Cairns. There's also young Bennett in the pipeline.

Sure, we don't have an Alan Tait in there yet, but I do think Ansbro will improve quite a bit next year with regular rugby at London Irish.

You are right though, particularly at 10 and 12. Townsend was the last quality playmaker we had at 10, since then we've had Godman and Parks sharing the load. Parks is really just a kicker, and whilst Godman does like to spin the ball, it's more just lateral distribution and has the effect of passing responsibility side-ways rather than creating anything resembling space. Even if we'd had someone like Townsend at 10, we'd still have had Morrison at 12. Morrison is a good defensive leader and a strong carrier, but is creatively limited. The combination of him and Parks made us and Glasgow awkward to play, because the midfield was solid in defence and Parks played for territory, but it wasn't condusive to scoring tries.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Does anyone have a view on how Bennett played in the U20 JWC? I didn't see Scotland play, but read that he was playing at 13. Didn't hear him mentioned much in the reports.

FES, in the games that I watched (all except Argentina so far), he played at 13 in the pool, but moved to the wing against Wales and stayed there for the baby Pumas. He looked strong in both attack and defence - the one thing that sets him apart for me is that he plays with his head up, so his decision-making is excellent. Big things expected but I'm hopeful that he'll deliver

I like the look of Joe Ansbro, he could be quite a player - as could Duncan Weir if he's given the game time.

Despite protestations to the contrary, I really hope that Scotland gets back on the rails.

The key to my mind lies in the Borders and the Eastern lowlands and as far away from the Old Firm as possible.

Take rugby to where it's roots are not where the cash is.

And play it in intimate little stadia.

p.s. Cmon Andy! 1 set up

A Scottish player playing with his head up!!! Stop the press! Hopefully more of that sort of thing will be encouraged in France at Clermont, although I'd far rather he got game time at 13 as opposed to wing.

We're doing ok for wingers, and it's about time we had some real vision in the centres. But in any case, it's more important that he plays somewhere rather than not at all.

Has he been involved in the 7s at all? That would be exactly the sort of forum where he could hone his basics. I wonder whether he could get involved towards the tail end of next year at Twickenham and Murrayfield.

Doubt he'll be allowed to escape his academy contract at ASM?

In the next few years I think we'll have a really well balanced backline.

How about this for an experimental backline :

9. Cus
10. Weir / Jackson
11. Visser
12. Cairns / Bennet
13. Ansbro
14. Evans / Thompson
15. Cuthbert

Young, adventurous and totaly unlike anything we have been used to recently, no 1 dimensional runners like Morrison, Lamont, Danielli and Walker, powerful dynamic runners instead of Crash Ball merchants.

Harsh to drop mossy but I really want to see what cuthbert could do for Scotland at 15. A full back in the same mould as Gavin Hastings.

Portnoy, a borders Regional team just does not work sadly due to Club loyalties to the likes of Gala, Melrose, Kelso etc

Agree with Portnoy - as an Englishman, I want to see Scotland become a better team again, and to do that there will need to be some fundamental changes in the organisation of pro rugby north of the border. I'm a traditionalist at heart, and still consider the Calcutta Cup as the biggest annual rivalry.

You have to re-engage the borders heartlands, as that (plus the public schools) is where your best players have usually come from. Players that learnt to spin a pass by chucking a sheep into the back of a Land Rover are the lifeblood of Scottish rugby.

My Dad told a story of playing against Hawick in the mid 70s (ithe Hawick team including Jim Renwick IIRC) - they came down (to Morley, outskirts of Leeds) on Friday, drank the bar dry Friday night, trained a bit Saturday morning, won by 50 on Saturday afternoon and drank the bar dry again that night. Proper rugby players.

Sorting our Scotlands rugby below the Magners will be a good thing, but I cant really see much difference to Scotlands fortunes until they improve their financial situation.
It just looks like your papering over cracks to be honest.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Portnoy, a borders Regional team just does not work sadly due to Club loyalties to the likes of Gala, Melrose, Kelso etc

Radge, not sure that's absolutely true, although it is certainly a widely held belief - I played against South Schools in my long ago youth on a couple of occasions and they seemed to have no problem in blending different parties. I think it's mainly a question of how it's approached

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Radge, not sure that's absolutely true, although it is certainly a widely held belief - I played against South Schools in my long ago youth on a couple of occasions and they seemed to have no problem in blending different parties. I think it's mainly a question of how it's approached

Quite possibly, I certainly know it is the heartland of the game here and at any level wether it be 1sts 2nds 3rds, the border teams are very very tough opposition. No doubt they have also riased some brilliant talent in the past.

This is the area of the Country that has the level of interest to make a Pro team work, as you indticated approaching it is where the problem lies.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Doubt he'll be allowed to escape his academy contract at ASM?

That's probably right, but once the WC players are back at Clermont at the business end of the season, there might be scope for him to be released for a fortnight. I guess it depends on what Bennett was able to negotiate - I suspect ASM had the whip hand so will have him tied down.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:In the next few years I think we'll have a really well balanced backline.

How about this for an experimental backline :

9. Cus
10. Weir / Jackson
11. Visser
12. Cairns / Bennet
13. Ansbro
14. Evans / Thompson
15. Cuthbert

Young, adventurous and totaly unlike anything we have been used to recently, no 1 dimensional runners like Morrison, Lamont, Danielli and Walker, powerful dynamic runners instead of Crash Ball merchants.

Harsh to drop mossy but I really want to see what cuthbert could do for Scotland at 15. A full back in the same mould as Gavin Hastings.

Radge, I'll see your experimental backline, and raise you my possibles backline:

9. Cus / Sean Kennedy (thought he was excellent in the U20s JWC)
10. Weir / Jackson / Alex Blair (the lad is a v gifted player if he can stay injury free)
11. Visser
12. Jackson / Harry Leonard (would've gone to JWC but is in NZ on MacPhail scholarship)
13. Ansbro / Bennett / Alex Grove (Bennett is defo an OC, a winger at a push; I think there's more to come from Grove)
14. Evans / Thompson
15. Cuthbert / Stuart Hogg

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:How about this for an experimental backline :

9. Cus
10. Weir / Jackson
11. Visser
12. Cairns / Bennet
13. Ansbro
14. Evans / Thompson
15. Cuthbert

Not sure Cairns has the skills to play at 12, and given Bennett seems to similarly be a 13/wing rather than a 12, you may find that option imbalanced.

My "experimental" suggestion is to use Jackson as a 12 after the WC, and see where that gets us. We've been using CP as a second distributor from 15, but assuming we go with your suggestion of Cuthbert at 15, perhaps the alternative would be to have a classic distributor at 12, and Jackson isn't afraid to run into contact either.

The other player slipping off the radar is Grove. He's back in the Premiership next season and seems to be a starter for Worcester. If he can get his old form back, he's a great potential option at centre - seems to have very strong basics and an eye for the try line.

Harry Leonard is a new one on me, what's his background?

I wonder how much rugby Cuthbert is going to get at Bath next season. He'll only develop if he's playing. I hope McGeechan does us a favour and gives the lad some game time. Obviously Abendannon is their top pick, but with Banahan away at the WC, hopefully Cuthbert can get a few starts and stake a claim.

Harry Leonard

Macphail scholarship

What impresses me most about Grove is he is a really physical player.

Basicly Morrison with much better running and distributing skills. I'll concede the point about Bennet and Cairns at 12.

FES I thought it was you that mentioned using Jackson at inside centre but I could not be sure. It's a damn good Idea and to be honest sounds like it might be worth a punt.

funnyExiledScot wrote:13 is less of an issue for us now I'd say. Ansbro is a pretty decent player, and behind him we can move Evans back to 13, put Sean Lamont at 13, recall Grove, or use either De Luca or Cairns. There's also young Bennett in the pipeline.

Sure, we don't have an Alan Tait in there yet, but I do think Ansbro will improve quite a bit next year with regular rugby at London Irish.

You are right though, particularly at 10 and 12. Townsend was the last quality playmaker we had at 10, since then we've had Godman and Parks sharing the load. Parks is really just a kicker, and whilst Godman does like to spin the ball, it's more just lateral distribution and has the effect of passing responsibility side-ways rather than creating anything resembling space. Even if we'd had someone like Townsend at 10, we'd still have had Morrison at 12. Morrison is a good defensive leader and a strong carrier, but is creatively limited. The combination of him and Parks made us and Glasgow awkward to play, because the midfield was solid in defence and Parks played for territory, but it wasn't condusive to scoring tries.

Yes I agree that Ansbro has shown he is of the right calibre, and Lamont didnt look to shabby at 12, though not a creative player, he did his bit well and with strength.

OH FER FER FER OOOKS SAKE.

Scotland will have to do what it's always done (unless you want curling to become truly your national sport) - play your big stuff in the places where the game matters.

I'd hate to use the term Braveheart because that has too many gooey interpretations. But a radical repositioning is required.

Portnoy wrote:OH FER FER FER OOOKS SAKE.

Scotland will have to do what it's always done (unless you want curling to become truly your national sport) - play your big stuff in the places where the game matters.

I'd hate to use the term Braveheart because that has too many gooey interpretations. But a radical repositioning is required.

Elaborate, Portnoy, pls?

Turn your back on the ML.

Re-grow your league with all its array of harmonies and discords.

This applies equally to the Welsh.

Portnoy wrote:Turn your back on the ML.

You really hate the Magners don't you

EDIT:

ASBO - Harry Leonard sounds promising, and as a 10 turned 12 being over 6 ft, hopefully he can develop a decent offloading game.

I think the Jackson idea will gain some traction at Glasgow next season if Weir can really step up to the plate during the WC. In particular, if Weir's place kicking is really strong in the 1st half of the season, then it'll be hard to drop him for Jackson, whose kicking has been typically hit and miss. It'll mean that Jackson could either end up on the bench, or if Lineen wants to open up the backs as a tactical ploy, then either swapping Morrison for Jackson, or having Jackson at 12 and Morrison as a crash ball 13.

Much of it rests with Weir.

Portnoy wrote:Turn your back on the ML.

Re-grow your league with all its array of harmonies and discords.

This applies equally to the Welsh.

But that national leagues are still there, and will remain (at least the top two) even with the agreed restructuring? All of the names that you would recognise are there in one format or another. The ML franchises grew out of the old district set up but the link between club and district wasn't carried forward particularly successfully to the pro teams, and coupled with disastrous finances, we saw the result with the demise of the Border Reivers (old south district) and Caledonians (old north and midlands district). We can't go back, we need to move forward and get it right

Not possible I'm afraid, the Pro12 (the league formally known as the Magners League) brings in the level of competition needed to keep Scottish Internationals sharp. I could hardly see the likes of Ross Ford on his new massive pay cheque moving back to play for Kelso.

It's all about money in the Pro era, and the borders teams can't financialy compete with the likes of Munster and Ospreys.

Both nations need the Mag... Pro12.

No individual League put together by Italy, Ireland, Scotland or Wales will provide the level of competition the Pro12 does, no smaller club than our current regional/province set-up would be able to match the spending power of the French/English or sustain any kind of reasonable challenge in Europe.

Nope. I just don't believe that one size fits all.

Ireland are bespoke tailored and the rest haven't grasped the concept.

Or shouldn't have bought a franchise.

I'm considering the greater good of Scotland - not the 'Pro-12' as I've been coached to promote it.

So am I, I just don't see how your proposal helps Scotland.

Cons-

*Less likely to be able to retain best players in Scotland
*Unable to compete on or off field with larger French/English clubs
*Absence of regional combinations at national level
*Much less TV money
*No prospect of a realistic challenge in Europe

Pros-

*Potentially more fans through the gates on a weekly basis?

I'm really straining to see the upside in the idea for Scottish Rugby. For me, the problems they are having are that they haven't handled the move to regions well. Neither have Wales. Ireland did. We got in quicker to the idea and the rest have been trying to catch-up.

But the flaw for Scotland and Wales is in the execution- not the basic idea.

Notch wrote:So am I, I just don't see how your proposal helps Scotland.

I dare say Scottish players will learn more from BOD, POC, Williams, Jenkins, Jones etc than they would pumping Scottish Club teams.

The transition to the Pro game has been slow in Scotland but it has to be said that is a topic for another thread.....

Scotland and wales went into the celtic league/pro 12 with the wrong idea they went in primarily to it as a money saving idea as there uniions could no longer fund there pro clubs. The link between the regional sides and the clubs isnt managed very well. The example i would use is the gaa in ireland the basic unit of the the gaa in ireland is the club/parish team. However top level competition is on a county bases. The strongest clubs as a rule tend to contribute a large chunk of players to the county teams and as a rule they beinift from having sucessful a sucessful county team. The scots and the welsh need a similar system there has to be something in the having sucessful pro teams for the scottish and welsh clubs.

Erm. Scotland goes backwards without a visible brake.

You've got to remember that you have to take hearts and minds with you into a franchise.

Scotland and (and Wales mostly) haven't.

They went down to Primark and bought stuff cobbled off the shelf.

Murray Wins! brilliant

The first match between Glasgow and Edinburgh took place in 1872 Portnoys.

I'd say there are plenty of people in Scotland who identify as being either Glaswegian or from Edinburgh. There's a lot of potential to build an identity on that rather than the rather esoteric Scottish club scene. I bet the majority of people in Scotland couldn't name five of the leading Scottish clubs. It's a shame that they failed The Borders, but rugby has always been a minority sport in Scotland.

FES - Leonard is a talented 10 whom Boroughmuir have been nurturing very carefully. He's a big solid lump and an excellent all rounder - he also played for Scotland juniors at football and has run with London Irish.

He has also played inside centre, but having seen him there twice, I think that he's wasted at 12.

Had no idea he was in NZ, right enough.

Notch wrote:The first match between Glasgow and Edinburgh took place in 1872 Portnoys.

I'd say there are plenty of people in Scotland who identify as being either Glaswegian or from Edinburgh. It's a shame that they failed The Borders, but rugby has always been a minority sport in Scotland.

You pinpoint the nub precisely Notch.

There are (to my understanding) a probably a greater number of Scottish rugby fans who are not Metro-centric.

I'm not sure that the big league is the place for Scottish clubs.

Portnoy - your suggestion has only one outcome. An amateur back water league in Scotland, in which no international players would feature, and a large exile community of players. There would be zero justification for Scottish participation in the HC on that basis, less TV money and less depth of Scottish players getting access to top level rugby. Talent will simply be shipped to academies of the top English and French sides. That's where the money and the top level of rugby will be.

That's not what we want. We need to build on what we have, and accept the current scenario for what it is. We were in a far worse position 5 years ago in my opinion, certainly at the international level. Less quality and less depth. The real work now needs to start on Edinburgh and Glasgow, and getting more fans through the gates. That should be the focus, not ripping up the system yet again.

Exactly

OK. If that's what you want.

I'm not sure that an exiles strategy will be welcomed with open arms here in England. Any more than the Saffacens. They'd best be more involved with English development than Scottish imo.

Precisely the point Portnoy. If you destroy the domestic game as you suggest, you rely solely on clubs in other countries to develop your talent (which they'll only do for a handful of top young players). Top young players need competitive rugby to develop. Your suggestion removes that option for all but a small handful of young talented Scottish players.

We are not a big rugby country and not a big rugby community in terms of numbers, thus we need to concentrate our talent to compete.

Currently at present I'd say the exiles system is working really well for Scotland, I wouldn't want to alter the balance much further.

The franchise route is failing whilst the love of rugby persists in the essential parts of of the nation.

I honestly believe that club rugby is in the Scottish DNA.

And that the Celtic venture has failed them.

Portnoy wrote:The franchise route is failing whilst the love of rugby persists in the essential parts of of the nation.

I honestly believe that club rugby is in the Scottish DNA.

And that the Celtic venture has failed them.

No, they've failed in the Celtic venture- a significant difference. But not terminally. Whereas a return to smaller clubs in this age would be the death knell of interest, relevance and competitiveness.

The Borders- failed. If Scottish rugby is to compete is must go beyond the club scene in terms of appeal. It's essential they get the clubs on board yes, and they've failed to do that, but if it's just the clubs they will die off.

The potential is there, in Glasgow and Edinburgh, but the SRU have managed them horribly. They've marketed them horribly and made a horlix of the situation. I hope it can be rescued, because we need a strong Scotland in the Pro12, HC and 6N. In world rugby in general.