The MTO debate

I don't understand why threads are being closed so easily. Yes I do, like many here, believe that Nadal faked an injury today AGAIN. I predicted that he would finish the match and even the championship. Unlike at the AO, you can tell when it's fake. At the AO he was a step slower. Some see it, some don't but at least I am entitled to my view and express it on this forum. That's what we are here for.

Maybe I don't have tangible proof that he faked it (despite winning a Delpotro in form), but noone has proof he did not fake it either, right. We are all expressing views so please LK, stop closing down thread for expressing views on players.

That's the reason many of us joined that forum, whether we are right or wrong.

I can't agree more......and may I add why it's not possible to chat freely without the cyber police coming in every 2 min.?? BOO??

Tenez,

There is a difference between proof and allegations. Like I stated on a previous thread the 'facts' you can argue facts if you want, but it won't change that they are facts.

If you don't have tangible proof or furthermore comments from doctors or players actually 'suggesting' otherwise, I cannot for the life of me see why you think this is something that is worthy of debating.

You predicted he would finish the match and the championship which I have no problem with.

Maybe you should think about the legal aspect of allegations and it's implications it can have to this website. How would you feel if your allegation of faking an injury or cheating was picked up by Nadal's legal team and this website was closed for that reason?

Bear in mind your opinion isn't the only one. So think twice when making an opinion or allegation as I have no problems with people debating opinions. With allegations please be more sensible.

Thanks

Perhaps its comments like "but noone has proof he did not fake it either, right.", i.e. guilty until proved innocent, that cause concern. If that isnt blatant bias I dont know what is.

And I presume Nadal is going to the lengths of having a MRI just to reinforce the fake injury, right?

Utter tripe

Tenez, I must agree that at times you do post rubbish on here.

Actaully LK is not a bad moderator. Unlike 606 where moderators were hampered by the horse vision.

Presumably Tenez thinks he could do a better job as moderator?
After all moderation is his middle name

Tenez wrote:I don't understand why threads are being closed so easily. Yes I do, like many here, believe that Nadal faked an injury today AGAIN. I predicted that he would finish the match and even the championship. Unlike at the AO, you can tell when it's fake. At the AO he was a step slower. Some see it, some don't but at least I am entitled to my view and express it on this forum. That's what we are here for.

You are not entitled to anything. It is not your forum and you are not entitled to put the owners of this forum at risk of a law suit. We all agreed to abide by the rules when we signed up.

Maybe I don't have tangible proof that he faked it ......

There is no maybe about it. You don't have proof, tangible or otherwise and as such you should think twice before making serious allegations which are (as you admit) completely unfounded.

Which of the myriad of links out there do I wish to choose to post where it discusses that Rafa is to have an MRI scan as he has a suspected cracked bone in his foot. But yes ... that's probably all part of his master plan too. You know, the one he hatches to try and cover up his blatant cheating.

And before you start, Murray had an MRI on his ankle at the FO that proved he had a crack and yet he continued to play in that tournament, and Queens and is here at Wimbledon. So really, its not fighting for a cause to express your opinion, its fighting for a right to make continued unfounded allegations against a player that you despise and watch only in the hope that he loses.

There is no substantiated evidence whatsoever of injuries being faked, only what matters to your carefully crafted agenda. Which again tonight has proved to be utterly ridiculous.

LK is not a bad moderator. Unlike some posters here he has not his head stuck in Nadal's rear.

But it;s clear he is under lots of presssure and frankly feeling the pressure cause many of us "think" Nadal is faking injury is really going over the top.

I don;t buy this "allegation" when talking about faking injuries. It's really taking that forum a bit too seriously.

I don;t know any tennis forum where a thread would be closed because some members think a player is faking injuries.

Let's get real!

Tenez wrote:LK is not a bad moderator

How nice of you to make that judgement...

lydian wrote:

Tenez wrote:LK is not a bad moderator

How nice of you to make that judgement...

Lydian, that's an opinion. You might disagree with that .

Let's get real!

How about you get real. How about you get real to the fact that Rafael Nadal is to have an MRI scan on a suspected crack to the bone in his foot. And under whose pressure did LK close the MOTD thread tonight? Whose exactly?? Maybe he just took a reasoned decision that it was just getting full of totally unfounded subjective nonsense based on biased opinon rather than actual fact. And maybe for the health of the fourm at large it was considered that repetitive nonsense of faking allegations needed to be nipped in the bud.

Tenez wrote:Unlike some posters here he has not his head stuck in Nadal's rear.

So if you dont agree he's faking injury (when he's getting a MRI), then you're a Nadal sycophant right?

You're out-doing yourself tonight Tenez

Simply put, you are free to express opinion, but not to state opinion as fact. Its painfully simple

wow wrote: Lydian, that's an opinion. You might disagree with that .

lol...yeah saying "LK is not a bad moderator" is a great ringing endorsement isnt it - and yet who is Tenez to judge unless he's done the job himself and shown himself to be good at it.

Wooffie wrote:Which of the myriad of links out there do I wish to choose to post where it discusses that Rafa is to have an MRI scan as he has a suspected cracked bone in his foot. But yes ... that's probably all part of his master plan too. You know, the one he hatches to try and cover up his blatant cheating.

And before you start, Murray had an MRI on his ankle at the FO that proved he had a crack and yet he continued to play in that tournament, and Queens and is here at Wimbledon. So really, its not fighting for a cause to express your opinion, its fighting for a right to make continued unfounded allegations against a player that you despise and watch only in the hope that he loses.

There is no substantiated evidence whatsoever of injuries being faked, only what matters to your carefully crafted agenda. Which again tonight has proved to be utterly ridiculous.

Yes I agree, there is no evidence that Nadal is faking injuries. It's just that medical time- outs are happening with ever increasing regularity and this is OBJECTIVELY disrupting the game and annoying very much the other players. This I believe can be said without fear of a lawsuit.

To call someone a faker and a cheat in sport, is one of the worst accusations. Rafael Nadal today called an MTO for pain he felt in a bone. He was treated accordingly for it. He will have an MRI scan to reveal exactly what is wrong. Those are facts. So frankly, I think that is enough tangible proof to show that he didn't "fake" it. So this thread has no worth either.

"medical time- outs are happening with ever increasing regularity "

Maybe but the game is also faster and more physically challenging than before leading the risk of injury increasing during a match.

Tom_____ wrote:Simply put, you are free to express opinion, but not state opinion as fact. Its painfully simple

I disagree. While you are free to express an untrue and defamatory opinion about a person or organization (it will not be a criminal matter), you must also be prepared to face the consequences when they take you to civil court and clean you out.

What is unreasonable is to potentially drag the owners of a forum into your sorry mess by repeatedly posting such allegations even though you have been warned several times not to do so.

wow wrote:

lydian wrote:

Tenez wrote:LK is not a bad moderator

How nice of you to make that judgement...

Lydian, that's an opinion. You might disagree with that .

This is exactly the kind of thing that causes a problem tenez - you wrote:

Tenez wrote:LK is not a bad moderator

Your stating opinion as fact.

You would be better writing:

"I think LK is not a bad moderator".

Same can be applied when you talk about sport injuries or your all time preferred football team. For it to be OK you need to acknowledge somewhere in your writing that what you are saying is opinion and not definitive.


all imo.

icecold wrote:

Tom_____ wrote:Simply put, you are free to express opinion, but not state opinion as fact. Its painfully simple

I disagree. While you are free to express an untrue and defamatory opinion about a person or organization (it will not be a criminal matter), you must also be prepared to face the consequences when they take you to civil court and clean you out.

What is unreasonable is to potentially drag the owners of a forum into your sorry mess by repeatedly posting such allegations even though you have been warned several times not to do so.

are there any examples of that you can think of relevant to an online chat forum?

lydian wrote:

wow wrote: Lydian, that's an opinion. You might disagree with that .

lol...yeah saying "LK is not a bad moderator" is a great ringing endorsement isnt it - and yet who is Tenez to judge unless he's done the job himself and shown himself to be good at it.

TBF I didn't see that Tenez has made the same statement. However, I must say that LK is pretty good and doing a tough job with some ease.

Well its Nadal and MTOs that seem to go hand in hand with some people. So exactly how many have there been recently? He had one at Wimbledon last year at the end of a 3rd set. I'm trying to remember if he had one at the AO but regardless, he had the next 2 months out injured. I'm struggling to remember others by him in the last 12 months, but he had one at the USO in 2009 and one at the WTF in 2009 so I would suggest its hardly an endemic with that particular player, more like something the bandwaggoners like to jump on.

lydian wrote:"medical time- outs are happening with ever increasing regularity "

Maybe but the game is also faster and more physically challenging than before leading the risk of injury increasing during a match.

Its just another of those grey areas that are certainly not helping in promoting the game......I am totally against the MTO and I am not alone in this belief.....

Come on Tom___, everyone knows that Nadal regularly peruses 606v2, and is currently deciding how many millions of pounds he is going to sue Tenez for his deflamatory remarks.

wow wrote:Actaully LK is not a bad moderator. Unlike 606 where moderators were hampered by the horse vision.

This is what I said and in my opinion, I was expressing an opinion but my opinion could be a fact.

Wooffie wrote:Well its Nadal and MTOs that seem to go hand in hand with some people. So exactly how many have there been recently? He had one at Wimbledon last year at the end of a 3rd set. I'm trying to remember if he had one at the AO but regardless, he had the next 2 months out injured. I'm struggling to remember others by him in the last 12 months, but he had one at the USO in 2009 and one at the WTF in 2009 so I would suggest its hardly an endemic with that particular player, more like something the bandwaggoners like to jump on.

Did he not take a MTo against Muller?

Nadal breaks the 20s time rule regularly and gets coaching on court. I can prove that.

I'd love to be taken to court on those points.

Nadal....I'll send you my details if you read this! And will sort something out.
I can be bought easily by the way.

Wooffie wrote:Well its Nadal and MTOs that seem to go hand in hand with some people. So exactly how many have there been recently? He had one at Wimbledon last year at the end of a 3rd set. I'm trying to remember if he had one at the AO but regardless, he had the next 2 months out injured. I'm struggling to remember others by him in the last 12 months, but he had one at the USO in 2009 and one at the WTF in 2009 so I would suggest its hardly an endemic with that particular player, more like something the bandwaggoners like to jump on.

It seems to remember one at the RG 2011 final but might be wrong......

Tom_____ wrote:

icecold wrote:

Tom_____ wrote:Simply put, you are free to express opinion, but not state opinion as fact. Its painfully simple

I disagree. While you are free to express an untrue and defamatory opinion about a person or organization (it will not be a criminal matter), you must also be prepared to face the consequences when they take you to civil court and clean you out.

What is unreasonable is to potentially drag the owners of a forum into your sorry mess by repeatedly posting such allegations even though you have been warned several times not to do so.

are there any examples of that you can think of relevant to an online chat forum?

Not specifically but a few Twitter users must be waiting very nervously to see what the Attorney General has to say re: super injunctions. It also depends upon how high profile the forum is. I know for a fact that Digital Spy was threatened with legal action by a very famous television personality because they were not actively (enough) moderating one of the threads in their forum where users post salacious gossip. They shut the thread down immediately and deleted all of the offending messages.

So, tenez...we have your disgruntlement with Nadal regarding the 20s rule, use of MTOs, and now onsite coaching...anything else you wish to bring up whilst you're spitting feathers?

No MTO at the FO, he got the trainer on at a change over with regard to a blister on his foot. All within the rules. Yes, he had a groin issue on Friday and wanted to receive some MTO treatment ... taken at the end of a set, within the rules.

Hang him.

'So, tenez...we have your disgruntlement with Nadal regarding the 20s rule, use of MTOs, and now onsite coaching...anything else you wish to bring up whilst you're spitting feathers?'

I've got one...the fact that he basically copied Federer's look. I think Federer should have trademarked the headband/floppy side-parted-hair look before all the other players started jumping on the bandwagon. There's Nadal, Dimitrov, Robredo, Baghdatis etc... Still, none of them have mastered the Federer hair-flick/stroke after hitting a good shot...yet.

Wooffie wrote:No MTO at the FO, he got the trainer on at a change over with regard to a blister on his foot. All within the rules. Yes, he had a groin issue on Friday and wanted to receive some MTO treatment ... taken at the end of a set, within the rules.

Hang him.

That's the most hilarious comment i ever read in my life thanks for making me lol

ps

can you enlighten me on the difference between receiving treatment for a blister t and the mto thanks....

lol...indeed!
They havent mastered the white jacket with 5 gold cups on look either...
I havent seen rafa serve a bottle off a guys head from 15 yards away yet too.

Glad I can amuse you. He called the trainer on at the change of ends for some treatment which he is entitled to do and didn't invoke an MTO.

More seriously. This MRI scan is probably to make his strategic MTO more credible. I am sure many players will question Nadal for his choice of calling the trainer just before the TB while finishing the match without trace of injuries.


More importantly, a metatarse bone can't be treated. Just rest is needed which is convenient in that case cause Nadal says he will carry on with painkiller and we will have to believe him with no proof of real injury one way or another.

Hello Tenez,

Nadal fans seem to be very protective, so I think you are wasting your time here

"Us" Nole fans can take it on the chin and laugh it all off...

Bottom line is, Nadal was better today; Delpo had great patches, they were still patches, and it wasn't enough.
How do you see the quarters?

MTO?!

I believe that the moment you receive treatment from a trainer for a period exceeding the time accorded for the changing event , you are having a MTO.

Have a look at those rules that seem to confirm. If Nadal didn't call for a MTO, thing that you say but i am not sure of, he may have breached the rules.

"New ITF medical timeout rules for 2010 (affecting ITF circuit events, Grand Slams and Davis Cup/Fed Cup). I have not seen the 2010 ATP or WTA rules yet, so don't know for sure if it 100% same, but I would imagine it will be for ATP and WTA events as well.

In pertinent parts:

Medical Time-Out can only be taken at changeover or set-break, unless the trainer/doctor determine that the player has an acute medical condition requiring immediate attention (ankle or knee sprain, bloody nose, etc.). If the player requests the trainer during a game, and the trainer diagnoses a non-acute condition, then the player will be instructed to play until the changeover when he can receive the medical time-out.

Here's the biggest change

No more medical time-outs allowed for cramping. A player may have a medical time-out for heat illness (vomiting or similar), but not solely for cramping. A player may only receive changeover/set-break treatment for muscle cramping, and only on 2 changeovers (doesn't need to be consecutive changeovers). If a player has severe cramping and needs immediate treatment, he/she may forfeit the points or games needed to get to the changeover where he/she may receive treatment for cramping, assuming they have not used all 3 changeovers yet. These forfeited games would not be considered a code violation for delay of game.

Bleeding
Bleeding is now officially in the rules that the chair umpire must stop play if a player is bleeding and request the trainer to the court. Blood must be stopped, and the court, balls, and anything else needs to be cleaned up or changed out before play is resumed.

graf_the_greatest wrote:Sign of the times I'm afraid. It seems we should only post on here after we've first consulted our solicitor. Fun and light-hearted, eh?

606 version zwei is starting to feel a little more draconian and fascist than version ein.

I better shut up, I've probably said too much already.

I reckon there are more movers than shakers here......

I think JK has cleared that up nicely, thanks for that. Clearly here the trainer diagnosed an "acute medical condition" (and if it turns out Rafa has a broken bone somewhere in his foot then fair enough) so the MTO was perfectly accepatble.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I think JK has cleared that up nicely, thanks for that. Clearly here the trainer diagnosed an "acute medical condition" (and if it turns out Rafa has a broken bone somewhere in his foot then fair enough) so the MTO was perfectly accepatble.

Honestly MFC did the Nadal's medical condition seem acute to you?

I know this NITB but I like to remind them that everyone has a dark side and that Nadal's dark side is very dark.

Honestly JK, just judging by his reaction I thought he was a goner, but maybe I'm gullible and easily taken in. I know whenever Murray starts wincing (something he does several times per match) I tend to get worried. Having said that, ultimately the trainer probably know better than any of us (it is his job after all). If he thinks the injury justified an MTO that's good enough for me...

Tenez wrote:I know this NITB but I like to remind them that everyone has a dark side and that Nadal's dark side is very dark.

I dunno, I found most "fans" to be a right pain, thin-skinned, waste of time, really. I don't know why people are like that, there are very few balanced characters who don't breathe down your neck.

When you spot a fool, you ignore a fool, don't you. If you engage in an argument with a fool you are either a fool for not recognizing a fool, or even a bigger fool for trying to change a fool's opinion.

I never fed WUMs and never had problems with them as I simply ignored them.

Also, there needs to be a right balance of freedom and oppression, as you don't want to be having to walk on eggshells all the time either

Anyway, I'm sooooo tired....what a great day of tennis it has been

It's interesting, I remember one poster saying oh, Nadal doesn't intentionally take his time or that 'flow' is not proven and is not relevant in sports/tennis. Might be useful to read this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamesmanship

It may be the case that Nadal is genuinely injured on occasions, every player does become injured from time to time, but what can not be disputed is that Nadal taking his time on serve (forcing his opponent to wait) and taking MTO, disrupts the flow of his opponent, and the only beneficially of that is Nadal. That can not be disputed, the only disputed matter is if it's intentionally done or not, whether it is or not doesn't detract from the fact Nadal is the main beneficially.