Is Quade Cooper Better Than Dan Carter?

There is a lot of hype surrounding Quade Cooper at the moment. His game last weekend against the Blues was quite simply jaw droppping at times. We haven't seen individual brilliance of that kind in a long time. This weekend, however, Cooper goes toe to toe with Dan Carter, widely regarded as the world's best fly half. The Rugby Spectator team ask, is Quade Cooper better than Dan Carter?

Check out the full article below.......

http://www.rugbyspectator.com/2011/07/is-quade-cooper-better-than-dan-carter/

Do you agree that Dan Carter is still the world's best fly half?

Good article, however I think it misses one of the best aspects of DC's game..... carrying into contact.

When Dan Carter carries the ball into contact he looks like a No8 not a fly half, his upper body strength and the ability to break through a tackle is what sets him apart from Cooper.

Carter by some distance I would say is a better player.

Is the question " has Cooper been playing better than Carter recently", the answer may be yes
If the question is "has Cooper sudednely become that much better and or Carter become that much worse on a permanneyt basis " then I suspect the answer is no.
If the question is " are there some aspects of the game where Cooper is and always has been better" then the answer is yes
If the question is " Is this columist trying to stretch a point here because its a slow news day" then I firmly suspect the answer is yes.

Great point Rugger Radge2611, I think you are spot on, we perhaps should have considered that too. Carter is very un flyhalf like in the way that carries the ball to such great effect.

Peter - Spot on, it has been a slow day! Ha.

In all seriousness though, the article came out of a debate we had on twitter where some people tried to claim that Cooper was in fact a better fly half than Carter because of the game he had on Saturday and how he has played this season.

In repsonse, we just wanted to point out why that is not the case. Think you are right that Cooper has been playing better than Carter recently, but also as you say in no way does that make him better overall.

I think on Saturday that Cooper will struggle against the Crusaders, especially with SBW, Carter and McCaw shutting him down and closing down his space.

Cooper's a great talent though and exciting things ahead if he works on some of the weaker areas of his game.

Carter had an average Super season last year. But to me there´s no point in making comparisons between these two unless it´s test rugby. Test rugby is a step up from Super rugby and players have that fraction less time to think. That´s where class stands out and that´s where Carter has always had the edge. That said, Cooper is a fantastic player to watch and he´s great for the game and will only get better. That partnership with Genia is the best in world rugby at the moment.

Cooper is faster and very unpredictable. Carter's running game isn't on show anywhere near as much as he has so much blockbusting talent around him (not that the Reds don't) and is a little less selfish-meaning Cooper will go more often at the line. However Carter has possibly the best fend in world rugby breaking on the outside. Ask Henson, Allen, Youngs...etc.

Dealing with pressure is another thing and Carter takes this too. I can see Cooper doing a Billy Slater and gifting a crucial game to someone by trying something. Even in the QF he led NZ to a 13-3 lead before going off hurt. Add that to being able to kick 60m penalties and I'd say Carter.

Almost like watching Shahid Afridi in comparison to Sachin Tendulkar. I love Cooper though. So good for the game.

Think its a Blog rather than a column so not a slow news day but more of the authors train of thought. go on we all think of stuff like this, thats why we use 606

Rugby Spectator wrote:Great point Rugger Radge2611, I think you are spot on, we perhaps should have considered that too. Carter is very un flyhalf like in the way that carries the ball to such great effect.

Peter - Spot on, it has been a slow day! Ha.

In all seriousness though, the article came out of a debate we had on twitter where some people tried to claim that Cooper was in fact a better fly half than Carter because of the game he had on Saturday and how he has played this season.

In repsonse, we just wanted to point out why that is not the case. Think you are right that Cooper has been playing better than Carter recently, but also as you say in no way does that make him better overall.

I think on Saturday that Cooper will struggle against the Crusaders, especially with SBW, Carter and McCaw shutting him down and closing down his space.

Cooper's a great talent though and exciting things ahead if he works on some of the weaker areas of his game.

OK dude sorry I didnt read the article and didnt realise it was yours!

Yep if you were arguing the counter case well said sir. Ill click the link so you get the traffic

Actually scratch that. Sehwag for Afridi. More consistent.

Ask yourself who you'd want in the 10 shirt for your side in a RWC knockout game or (say) a Heineken Cup final. I think almost everyone would go for Carter because he's the one who won't make the mistakes that cost you the game.

It's a bit like the NZ debate of whether Mehrtens or Spencer should have played - Carlos was the flashier player but when the chips were down you'd want Mehrtens there.

One thing that should be put in there for a flyhalf is mentallity. Being cool under pressure, great decision making, consistency, stepping up when the chips are down. Carter is better than almost anyone at this.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Rugby Spectator wrote:Great point Rugger Radge2611, I think you are spot on, we perhaps should have considered that too. Carter is very un flyhalf like in the way that carries the ball to such great effect.

Peter - Spot on, it has been a slow day! Ha.

In all seriousness though, the article came out of a debate we had on twitter where some people tried to claim that Cooper was in fact a better fly half than Carter because of the game he had on Saturday and how he has played this season.

In repsonse, we just wanted to point out why that is not the case. Think you are right that Cooper has been playing better than Carter recently, but also as you say in no way does that make him better overall.

I think on Saturday that Cooper will struggle against the Crusaders, especially with SBW, Carter and McCaw shutting him down and closing down his space.

Cooper's a great talent though and exciting things ahead if he works on some of the weaker areas of his game.

OK dude sorry I didnt read the article and didnt realise it was yours!

Yep if you were arguing the counter case well said sir. Ill click the link so you get the traffic

Ha! No worries. New to 606 and have been asked by them to post a few articles here and there from the site. Most of them will be debate type articles so keep an eye out if you like them. All honest feedback welcome too, so don't be shy

I think Carter is getting a lot of wraps for reputational reasons. This year he has kicked well both in general play and for goal. Otherwise he has had a quiet season by his standards- and before anyone jumps down my throat it was reported recently that All Blacks management told Carter he needs to do more in general play (ie run the ball). Carter is safe. Cooper takes risks. Cooper's running game is breathtaking to watch and he is doing a lot to boost the popularity of rugby in Australia (which is not so popular there). From an entertainment perspective Cooper winds hands down. From a purist viewpoint Carter wins as he is a more complete player on balance. Certainly in a tight game you'd want Carter, if kicking penalty goals is the difference.

Cooper reminds me more of a next generation Carlos Spencer while Carter is the evolution of Andrew Mehrtens. If I want to watch a game and be entertained I would watch Cooper. If I want to depend on someone to deliver a result and appreciate an all round performance, I'd want Carter.

If only they could be on the field playing at the same time to give a comparison... if only.

Carter has been the best (and still is) for some years now. Although teams have been becoming more and more 'streetwise' to his magnificent all-round game he still finds ways to unlock and outsmart the opposition. High percentage goal kicker and a record points scorer. I always ask myself that question whenever I see Quade play. His phases of play and skills are like magic but he has some way to go before taking the title from Dan Carter.

I believe Quade to be the only outside half that is capable of being a better player than DC.

"If only they could be on the field playing at the same time to give a comparison... if only.."

Did you need another reason to want to watch the Super 15 finale?

Carter has had a quiet season this season,What season he`s barely played
kicking a lot?
Maybe thats because he came back to a team with half the top players missing.
Cooper is to Carter,as Spencer to Merthens,or Botica to Fox.He plays whats in front of him.
He seldom takes the wrong option,pass,kick,or run .Goes well into contact and is one of the best defending FHs in the business.
Cooper is new boy on the block,all the brilliant little tricks when they come off sublime.
When not oops,goal kicking tends to be about 50% when your in a Wallabies side with a goal kicker fine,also not that great a defender.
Carter is certainly not the player he was earlier in his career,but still the best about all round.goal kicking either abysmal or sometimes a 100 % this year abot 75+%.
O ver all DC still rules but Coopers getting there,Problem is when Carter is injured no one else is close to him Nick Evans excepted.
England did the same with Wilkinson no one was good enough to replace him till toby flood came along.
Australia have several Fhs are they as good as Cooper or better? we will know if he gets injured.

That article could have included another category... "Who looks the bigger git when lining up a conversion?" The whole process is so protracted and painful to watch.. the 'leaning on the fence', the finger nonsense, and then the inevitable miss.

That gripe aside, Cooper's playing style does deliver bums on seats as the crowds in Brisbane this year have shown. Also his short range cross field kicks are generally very accurate (the one to Ioane in the in-goal springs to mind) and his defence has definitely improved this season. Great player to watch in full flight just don't give him the kicking duties.

Quite difficult to analyse the players in isolation.

Would Carter look better next to a scrum half of equivalent ability to Genia whom he has also played alongside since he was 16 years of age?

Without question.

It would be a crying shame if Cooper's slightly wobbly goalkicking was the difference between the two sides in the final.

Being a bit unfair on Cooper's kicking, I haven't had a look but it's pretty high percentage over the last two seasons. I still wouldn't make him first choice kicker until after the RWC though.

Both are Kiwi born and rugby learnt so no wonder he stands out over there...

Carter has never had to play in poor teams surrounded by no names. I'm sure it helps to never play off a back peddling pack. What two teams over the course of his career compare to the cru and the all blacks? Without doubt he has played a huge part in that, but both teams are stacked with the best players in the world.

The Reds simply would not be playing this weekend if not for Cooper. They would be mid- to high table, but not home finalist. I think calling him a flake, as I have also done in the past, is an easy criticism, but not so closely aligned to what he has done in the last 18 months. The kid is booming.

That said, I still think Carter is the superior player (for the moment).

I've watched rugby for 12 years and i can say without a doubt Carter is the best player i've ever seen. I really feel everytime he has the ball he can break the line and create something, i can see the point of him usually playing behind a strong pack. Doesn't detract imo from the fact he has everything in his game and is more rounded than any other player. Whether its discipline, skill,temperament, tactics, the guy has the lot.

So year Carter>Cooper for sure, in a few years though with DC getting older, who knows..

I agree Dc has everything Monty, and was not attempting to belittle his ability. I watch three different footy codes each weekend, and Carter stands with the best players I see in each code.

What I am attempting to do is not let what Cooper does be constantly minimized as showboating. Our packs are written off by all and sundry, so with that variable operating in front of him, I think he shows a lot more than just tricks. For example, he operates at the line like few 10's are brave enough to. Does he make mistakes when playing? Of course, but that doesn't mean he's frail.

Anyway, each to their own, so no more from me on the topic!

Is the letter 'e' more useful/better than the letter 'b'?

Especially if they feature in different languages...

Obscure ... but well said!

It won't happen of course but it would be interesting to see Cooper playing behind a Crusaders or ABs pack and Carter play behind a Wallabies or Reds pack. That mind change a few views. As said elsewhere DC has a pretty big leg up given the quality of the ball he gets from his forwards.

Rob you talk such rubbish sometimes. You put carters career down to always having good players around him. Oh yeah. Thats real smart rob.considering general comment is that carter is likely the best 10 of all time how does that work??

Taylorman,
LOL. I think you may need to calm down a bit (perhaps a valium?). I haven't put Carter's "career" down to anything. In my post before the last one I said Carter is the more complete player (happy now?). All I said in my last post as a follow on was that it would be interesting to see Cooper behind a Crusaders pack and Carter behind a Wallabies pack. I can't see the controversy with a proposition that a No.10 benefits from being behind a strong pack of forwards. Have a look at Boomeranga's comment above - same point.

There´s no e in All Blacks Portnoy so obviously it´s inferior to b! Same as if you got a b for an essay and an e in another.

However in Spanish todos negros contains an e so in Argentina they go with Quade Cooper but they´re so used to doing their own thing that we shouldn´t pay much attention to them. In French, tous noirs neither has an e or a b so the question remains up in the air but then again so does the French team in general.

So there you have it, conclusive proof. I have no idea what I´m talking about! But if you were to sit down to a game with Carter, you´d have a beer or something more adventurous to toast him with. But with Cooper you´d settle down with some popcorn and enjoy the entertainment.

I thought Portnoy was spelt M-A-N-G-I-N-I now anyways.

The French just call NZ 'Les Blacks' anyways Kia.

Carter's managed to kick his side out of trouble a lot so he doesn't necessarily have an armchair ride. Cooper's unpredicatibility when running the ball can also be an advantage as if the backs get scrappy pill and going backwards he can still turn it into something special. Carter in this case is easier to anticipate.

I liken quade Cooper to a bottle of bubbly, and Dan Carter to a fine bottle of red wine.

Both are extremely good on occassions.

However, you can do a lot more with red wine.

Hi ya Biltong...
SA rugby is taking a bit of a back seat this week as a change to the last couple of years. I dont think that will be the case in the 3N. This trend towards the chip over and through worries me in that it plays right into the SA game of forcing mistakes through receiving kicks.

Theyre going to need the Brussouw's Smiths and Burgers to make the most of it but I think that tactic makes a great leveller and disrupts patterns, something thats not always easy to negotiate.

I am sick of the hopeful chip over the top

Well its sorted then...according to Duncan..

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/5249149/Quade-versus-Dan-No-contest-really

moving along...

Duncan does a lot of 'sensing' in that article, which makes me wonder if he's a qualified psychic, or does he just follow Andrew Hore around and read the seal bones?

Taylorman wrote:Rob you talk such rubbish sometimes. You put carters career down to always having good players around him. Oh yeah. Thats real smart rob.considering general comment is that carter is likely the best 10 of all time how does that work??

"Re: Great players - they're innate
by Taylorman on Mon 04 Jul 2011, 6:07 am

.ML I dont put Carter up there either. Lately his running has been missing and hes just getting by I reckon with those around him.
"

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

considering general comment is that carter is likely the best 10 of all time how does that work??

Best of all time?? Come on. All the great no 10's of the past 25 years have a World Cup winners medal in their cupboard - Fox, Lynagh, Larkham, Wilkinson. The only WC "trophy" Carter has is an encouragement/participation certificate from 2007 - "Dan tries hard but is easily distracted."

Jello Biafra wrote:

considering general comment is that carter is likely the best 10 of all time how does that work??

Best of all time?? Come on. All the great no 10's of the past 25 years have a World Cup winners medal in their cupboard - Fox, Lynagh, Larkham, Wilkinson. The only WC "trophy" Carter has is an encouragement/participation certificate from 2007 - "Dan tries hard but is easily distracted."

I struggle to agree with your reasoning. Neither Joel Stransky or Butch James were classed as great Flyhalves. They were at best good international players, yet they won world cup medals.

To suggest a RWC medal is won because of a "great" flyhalf only is ludicrous. It takes a squad of thirty.

Christian Cullen didn´t have a World Cup medal but Josh Lewsey did. Don´t get me wrong, I liked Lewsey as a player but if you´re going to have a Pepsi Coca Cola test with those two players, I´ll choose the one without a medal.

Both Carter and Nick Evans went off injured in 2007 as well so your whole argument is about as convincing as turning up Celine Dion on your car stereo. It should not be there at all, much like your post.

Yeah he steered NZ to a 13-3 lead before going off. You can't do much more than that. You kind of get distracted when you tear your calf muscle.

Mehrtens would sit comfortably in that group too. Hugo Porta also anyone?

Best of all time??

This was based on regular polls on 606 rugby. dan Carter alwasy seemed to be the most popular pick.

Rob, my comments about Carter on the innate greats thing was about all time greats, not a comparison between Cooper and carter. I'm not a huge fan of Carters as to me he does everything soundly and I reckon could be better and you probably have me there- lately his running has been non existent and hes getting by when compared to previous years.

Doesn't mean he aint still better than Cooper but he himself has been better in the past.

Hopefully he gets some of his older form back Saturday.

The thing with Quade is no one can consistently win matches with brilliance and high risk manoeuvres, the only one close being Jonah Lomu who could beat up to 7 or 8 players on his own to the line.

Quade needs to spark an incident to succeed. my opinion is he wont be allowed to. Simple as that.

I struggle to agree with your reasoning.Neither Joel Stransky or Butch James were classed as great Flyhalves.

That is why i didn't list James or Stransky. Carter (and Mehrtens too) are/were great players, no doubt. But greats? Sorry, have to disagree. Considering the teams they played in and the players they played with, they should have won what is the pinnacle of world Rugby - the World Cup. I would argue that if they were playing in "lesser" teams they would have more chance of being a "great" as they would dragged that "lesser" team up to a level beyond what was expected. However, the All Blacks are recognised as the dominant team and expected to rule the roost yet haven't made a final since 1995. This shows that while having great/outstanding/the best players they are have been lacking a "great" - someone who has that ability to get them over the line when failure is not an option. They had them in '87 (Fox et al), the Wallabies had them in '91 (Lynagh, Campo, Farr-Jones) in '99 (Eales). England had them in '03 (Johnson, Wilkinson) and Sth Africa (Piennar?) as well. If the AB's win this year then there would be no argument that Carter and McCaw could be considered "greats" of the game rather than great players.
A parallel I could draw would be that of the Australian cricket team (until recently). Take Steve Waugh - oustanding player, but never considered to be among the best batters of his generation. Lara and Tendulkar were much better technically, scored more runs. Yet, he is considered a cricketing great because he had the ability to deliver when it counted (3 world cups) and got the best out of the players around him. Of course the players around Steve Waugh were fantastic but the same can be said of the AB's. Individually, and collectively, the All Blacks have generally had the best players going around but have failed to stand up on the big stage.

I'd put Tim Horan in that list too Jello. Best 12 I've seen in my lifetime.

Cooper is mercurial. He has the confidence to try audacious things that we havent really seen before and the skill and brilliance to pull them off. However, has he ever really had a game at test level as he had v the Blues. When Aus beat NZ in Hong Kong Cooper was at times mesmeric and for phases completely absent. This sums him up for me. He is no doubt a really exciting player to watch but in tight games he often seems to lack key attributes required by an OH, tackling, goal kicking, nerve etc. For this reason I think he may be found out a little in the tight games of the WC despite being possibly the most exciting player at the moment. I still think DC is all round a better player.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Christian Cullen didn´t have a World Cup medal but Josh Lewsey did. Don´t get me wrong, I liked Lewsey as a player but if you´re going to have a Pepsi Coca Cola test with those two players, I´ll choose the one without a medal.

Both Carter and Nick Evans went off injured in 2007 as well so your whole argument is about as convincing as turning up Celine Dion on your car stereo. It should not be there at all, much like your post.

From Celine Dion's Wikipedia page:

"According to various sources, Dion possesses a five-octave vocal range [193][194][195][196], reaching high notes that are only exceeded by opera singers and losing All Black fans. [197]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celine_Dion

Hahaha nice one Boomeranga. Surprised Buck Shelford didn't gain said range after a Frog sprigged his ball bag.

France to shock all including themselves and lift the WC in NZ.

Go Leinster... go celine baby.Nothing wrong with Celine. Ive had her up heaps of times in my little mazda.

Rob B wrote:Taylorman,
LOL. I think you may need to calm down a bit (perhaps a valium?). I haven't put Carter's "career" down to anything. In my post before the last one I said Carter is the more complete player (happy now?). All I said in my last post as a follow on was that it would be interesting to see Cooper behind a Crusaders pack and Carter behind a Wallabies pack. I can't see the controversy with a proposition that a No.10 benefits from being behind a strong pack of forwards. Have a look at Boomeranga's comment above - same point.

Have to plump for Carter, but i see Rob's point. I don't think it's simply 'Carter would be worse behind a poorer pack and Cooper better behind a good one' although that is possible. I think the interesting thing is how much they would adapt their game/be able to adapt their game. Cooper probably tries a few more things as he has to. Would Carter run it more if he knew in kicking it away he might not get it back for 10 minutes? There's a lovely balance to Carter's game, i suspect he would have the nous to play it however he needed to, not sure Cooper is at that stage yet. Still, it would be good to see Carter behind a retreating pack. There's no doubt it IS is a different skill playing on the back-foot and that Carter hasn't done it for awhile.