606v2 picks the Irish RWC squad: BACK 3

Morning all.
Hope everyone had a good weekend.

I have seen the Welsh and English have already started these kinda articles and it did seem like a good idea to try and have them all together.
So the series will determine who will be the Irish RWC squad according to the 606v2 community.

I will try and post up the next part of the series every weekday morning so we all have plenty of time to debate each position. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but try and keep a level head and back up your points with examples or clips or something.

I am going to go for a 16/14 split between the backs and forwards.
4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
6 backrow (1 able to play lock)
3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres (1 able to play flyhalf)
6 back 3

This is Kidney's 43 man squad.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/23313.php

So far the Squad is:
Healy, Ross, Buckley and Court
Best, Cronin and Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan and Cullen
Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, Wallace, Jennings and Ryan
Reddan, Stringer and Murray
Sexton and O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy and Wallace

We are looking to select 6 back 3 players. The 6 with the most votes will be the ones selected as per normal.

Bowe- An astounding finisher and deceptively quick with good acceleration and a swerve more than a step. Excellent at joining the line in midfield and the closest thing we have to Ashton in terms of running support lines. Good defence and an excellent fielder. Not a great kicker however and this hasn't been a great season for Bowe. Can play 13 and 15 at a push.
Earls- Lightening quick (fastest in the squad?) and second only to Bowe in terms of finishing in the Irish squad. Versatile in that he has international experience at wing, centre and fullback. Good kicker of the ball and an average fielder. Excellent at broken field running. Good defence for the most part also.
Trimble- Brings a different element to the back3. Very physical and good in the contact area, he makes yards after contact has been initiated. Deceptively quick and has improved his core skills. Good at cutting lines into the midfield. Not a great kicker or fielder but has improved here in recent times. Defence is generally good.
McFadden- Not much game time this year but when playing has excelled. Can play 11-14 comfortably. Very quick and good at making yards once contact has been taken. Good feet and can kick from hand and floor well. Good defence and good distributing skills. Lack of expereience may stand against him.
Fitzgerald- Out of form for the season just gone. Has ruined many try scoring chances and has made simple errors in contact, passing and support lines. Excellent defender and while not a great sprinter is very quick over 40m and has exceptional agility. Versatile in that he has international experience playing 11-15 although to differing levels of success. Not a good finisher. Ok kicker and poor fielder.
Kearney- No game time since November. Poor form since 2009 in many peoples opinion. A fantastic kicker and fielder and very quick in a straight line. Poor counterattacker and broken field runner. Doesn't pass or offload often enough and tends to run straight into defenders. Not the most adept 15 at joining the attacking line either. Poor defence. Has got big game experience.
Murphy- No game time since November. Had been in good form for the tigers. A leader in the team. Not physically impressive, not overly quick or strong. Has improved his fielding and tackling somewhat over the last couple of seasons. Very creative and excellent at joing the line and a good counterattacker. An average fielder and kicker of the ball for an international 15. Not as much of a loose canon as once was.
Jones- No international or HCup experience. Excellent form for Munster. Excellent defence and quite creative in attack be in counterattacking or joining the line. Very agile and fairly quick too. Not the greatest fielder and an average kicker of the ball. Great hands when joining the line.
Duffy- Steady but not a World Class player. Can play 15 and 13. Good defence and a good fielder and kicker but not as effective with ball in hand. Not exceptionally quick, agile or stong but has a calm head and generally makes the right decisions.

NB: Horgan has not been included because his injury will see him out during the start of the RWC.

This is the last article in this series. Tomorrow I will begin a new series working out who our best starting XV are out of the squad that we on 606v2 have chosen.

I have not voted yet, but I know I will choose;

Bowe
Earls
Trimble
McFadden
Jones
and one of Kearney/Murphy

I really dislike Kearney but right now I'm leaning towards him I gotta say.

Probably the hardest position to pick from, Some excellent players to choose, some in great form, some that we know are good players in bad form and others that have been injured for a long period of time.

For me its Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Fitz, Kearney and Jones.

Fitz although had a terrible season i think is still a cracking player. he will probably be the toughest call.

Also gone for Jones. Only true full back that is fit. had a great end to the season.

Note to Pete,

Well done on all the articles enjoyed the debate everyday. well done buddy

Thanks Kev appreciate it.

What would make you choose Fitzgerald over McFadden? I know Fitz started ahead of McF in a lot of games but was that really justified?

Murphy- ....An average fielder and kicker of the ball for an international 15.

I've had many discussions over the years in relation to the merits or otherwise of Geordan Murphy but the one thing most people would agree on is the fact that he is a world class fielder of the ball. In fact when playing at FB for Ireland I can never remember him dropping a catch.

Don't ruin an excellent series of articles with lazy comments like that.

My picks would be:

Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald, Murphy and Jones

Went for:

Bowe
Earls
Trimble
Fitzgerald
Jones
Kearney

I don't think he is Kearney standard at fielding the ball but thank you for the round about compliment.

I can see Jones getting into the squad very easily now I have to say I think it's a shoot out between Murphy and Kearney.

kearney would be good against the likes of S.Africa IMO or on a seriously wet day but he jsut frustrates me too much with his straight running and lack of creativity. Murphy IMO is not as water tight but at least is a creative force at 15.

Ps: What justification do people have for selecting Fitzgerald?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Thanks Kev appreciate it.

What would make you choose Fitzgerald over McFadden? I know Fitz started ahead of McF in a lot of games but was that really justified?

I will probably get alot of guff for this but to be honest i think McF is slightly over rated. .

Fitz had a terrible season there is no denying that, and in truth i am picking him on past performances.

At his best he rarely made mistakes, should good feet and good hands in tight spaces.

Saying that i would have earls and bowe on the wings.

I've gone for Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, McFadden & Jones.

Bowe and Earls don't need any explanation - they have to go.

Trimble gives us genuine physical presence in that backline and was part of the very balanced looking backline we played against England.

Kearney should go if he's fit given that he's a genuine big game performer and has seen it all before - something that really can't be measured in terms of just how important it is.

McFadden offers us huge versatility, in the same way that Fitzgerald does. However, McFadden is in very decent form, can kick goals (remember Kearney having to do this against Italy in the Six Nations? It can happen), is much quicker than Fitzgerald and can play centre to a higher level.

Jones is a real wildcard pick. We don't know what the fitness of Kearney will be, so it'd be wise to have another specialist fullback in the squad. He's an excellent defender (possibly the best last line of defence tackler among those listed), is very quick, has great hands, and runs great lines - all of which Pete has said really, I'm just agreeing.

So in the 6 I've chosen, we have:

- 3 players who can play wing to the highest level - Bowe, Earls and Trimble
- A 4th winger who can play to a high level - McFadden
- 2 excellent, albeit contrasting, fullbacks in Kearney and Jones
- Another player who can play fullback to International standard - Earls
- 2 players who can cover outside centre - Earls and Bowe
- 1 player to cover inside centre - McFadden
- 1 player who can kick goals well - McFadden

I think those 6 gives us pretty decent injury cover, and also a huge number of options positionally.

MMC I think that post makes a lot of sense.

Just a thought on the Murphy-Kearney battle. I think Murphy would be more similar to Jones or earls and Kearney does bring something different.
The same way that one would chose Jennings above Leamy if both were in good form. Jennings lends something different.

I amn't sure I want to but I am going to vote Kearney but hope this tight selection policy for DK gives him a huge kick up the a$$. IMO he needs it.

Kev I agree with you but when was the last time Luke played anywhere near his best?

pete did kearney steal your girlfriend or something

this is actually easy

everyone but duffy and then its between kearney murphy and fitz to see who is playing better with one to lose out

If horgan wasnt injured it would be different, he is the form wing in ireland.

And also t bowe has not been at his blistering best this year, with trimble and earls his spot isnt as certain as years before

Your right Pete its been a while since he has played well.

I'm hoping that with another pre-season under belt he might regain form. I just wondering was he over thinking his game. with time off maybe he will just start playing.

If Mcf was picked in his place i would have no major disagreements. Its a close call.

D24-
No, well not yet anyway! I just don't trust kearney anymore I don't like how defensive he is, however, I have voted for him because he brings something very different to all the other backs and may be worth bringing. unless he shows form I would not start him or even think about starting him

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:MMC I think that post makes a lot of sense.

I would certainly hope so.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:...one would chose Jennings above Leamy if both were in good form. Jennings lends something different.

I agree completely with this. I think I've probably made this point during the backrow debate. I think it's vitally important to have a mix of players with different skillsets. Provided of course that the other options are up to a high enough standard. I wouldn't advocate bringing a below-standard player simply because they offer something different.

We're lucky enough to have that in quite a few positions now actually:
At scrumhalf we have Stringer.
At outhalf there's ROG.
Jennings in the backrow.
Paddy Wallace at centre.
We also have a host of options for the back three positions.

I think huge kudos needs to go to the provinces for this.

I have made my views clear on kearney, he will come back and beat players and join the line well

Also he will do something the rest with the exception of jones maybe can do, thats field high ball( one of the best in the world at this) and defend well

In this sense he is invaluable, remember the 6 nations, you need a safe pair of hands at the back

Yeah I'd say so too.

I am still very curious as to thinking behind so many votes for Fitzgerald.
We also appear to have a Gollum sneaking around after us and voting for the least likely option. Duffy has another vote and as far as I am aware the Bouncer hasn't made it to V2 yet has he??

Whether or not Earls gets more time at 15 or not will be hugely influential in the make up of the team IMO.

Should he get more time there are try to be the next irish 15?

D24-
Yeah he really does have the safest hands in the NH if not the world re:high balls.
I hope he starts beating players and defending well I really do.
In no way other than injury or huge loss of form can I see him taking Nacewa's spot at 15 for Leinster though.

I selected Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Bowe and Jones.

I picked McFadden as a centre and went with 4 centres.

In terms of decisions, I went with Jones ahead of Murphy based on recent form, and McFadden ahead of Fitzgerald based on both form, and also a need to have cover for D'Arcy at 12, which Fitzgerald doesn't provide.

One thing i will say about Kearney is he was very unlucky with the timing of his injury.

I think at leinster this year an aweful lot of players have embraced the way the game is going. It would have been very interesting to see how Kearney would have performed over a whole season at full back at leinster.

Despite how well Isa played this year, kearney was still 15 for leinster and was never going to be dropped from there because of the IRFU

Bowe
Earls
Mc F
Trimble
Kearney
Jones

I Kind of think Kidney will bring Fitz over McF, but I wouldnt be too upset.

Competition is tight in a few of the calls so performances in the warms will be a big factor.

I've got Bowe, Earls, Trimble (my starting Back 3)
McFadden, mainly for centre cover, as we need 4 specialist centres in the squad as one will also be OH cover as well, can also play wing.
Kearney, experienced FB in case Earls doesn't work there

Now my last choice is between Jones and Fitz, Jones is playing better but Fitz has far more versitility and this spot is nothing more than injury cover a maybe a start vs weaker nations. At the end of the day if in an injury crisis anywhere but FB you'd rather Fitz and he can play there in an absolute emergency.

Ahh, I think I'll have to go for Fitz for versatility and big game experience.

The next big question is, who do you take if D'Arcy can't make it? Another specialist centre? Or the next best back available (Jones) and trust the versatility of the rest of the squad

Interesting that people who didn't vote for Murray used the inexperience line but are happy to vote for Jones. I suppose we have more options at 9. Still on the fence myself, but so far I have Bowe,Earls and Trimble.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I am still very curious as to thinking behind so many votes for Fitzgerald.
We also appear to have a Gollum sneaking around after us and voting for the least likely option.

Just because you picked another player doesn't mean that people are only picking Fitz to try mess up the ratings.

I am not convinced by McFadden as a winger really and has yet to show he is capable of consistent top level performances. He didn't start the quarter final (only played 5 minutes), didn't start the semi final (got 20 minutes), didn't start the Heineken Cup final (got 10 minutes), played in the Magners Final at centre as Darcy was injured. Is a promising 12 but I can't justify picking him as a World Cup Back Three option ahead of Fitzgerald who I think is still a very good player, experienced and holds down a starting place in a winning team.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I selected Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Bowe and Jones.

I picked McFadden as a centre and went with 4 centres.

In terms of decisions, I went with Jones ahead of Murphy based on recent form, and McFadden ahead of Fitzgerald based on both form, and also a need to have cover for D'Arcy at 12, which Fitzgerald doesn't provide.

+1. For the exact same reasons...

It seems Funny, that you're on the same page as most. If you could include McF in your vote that would be great just so the poll is acurate. Would be much obliged.

I think both Jones and McF deserve to go. I'm still waiting to hear what some people who voted for Fitz have to say about why he deserves to go.

Kev- Yeah I agree it would have been interesting to see how he would have changed if at all. We will see next year sure. well hopefully anyway

Thomond wrote:Interesting that people who didn't vote for Murray used the inexperience line but are happy to vote for Jones. I suppose we have more options at 9. Still on the fence myself, but so far I have Bowe,Earls and Trimble.

Thom,
I think the line I've highlighted there is probably the reason why experience has come into it less wrt Jones. He's the only specialist fullback in the squad who's played this year.

As far as Murray goes, I voted for him but I'm 99% sure he'll lose out to Stringer.

Very interesting debate so far. I don't think we can really say that it's a choice between Fitzgerald (or McFadden) and Jones. Jones is up against Kearney, Murphy and Earls for the fullback berth. Furthermore, we cannot risk bringing both Murphy and Kearney due to question over there fitness. As a result, I think that Jones will make the 30, I'm almost certain of it.

The 6th place is a versatility spot that's a straight shootout between Fitzgerald and McFadden. I've already chosen McFadden and given my reasons why. For me, Fitzgerald's main problem is that the only position he covers to international standard is left wing. Earls and Trimble are far better options in that position right now so that's why I believe he should lose out this time (I'd back him to have a very good year next season though).

To be fair Stag, on the centres thread someone voted for Wallace, Spence and Duffy as their three first choice picks

For me, McFadden comes into the same category as Conor Murray and Felix Jones. Good breakthrough seasons, lack of experience, should probably come into the side after the World Cup when we have time to rebuild properly and introduce new players. I believe he has all the tools to be Irelands next 12. I also think it comes down to McFadden vs Jones for that 30th spot and I've gone for the conservative option and picked the extra cover at fullback. McFaddens versatility stands to him, but we do have other versatile players in the squad like Fitzgerald and Earls.

Fitzgerald is a good player who is low on a bit of confidence. I believe that after a long break he's capable of returning refreshed and putting last season behind him. Whether or not he goes will actually depend on whether or not he can do just that in the warm-ups. I'd give him every chance.

Good posts - in terms of first XV, I don't think that you can possibly afford to play Kearney. On current form Earls can be a match winner in a way that Kearney can't for two seasons now.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I am still very curious as to thinking behind so many votes for Fitzgerald.
We also appear to have a Gollum sneaking around after us and voting for the least likely option.

Just because you picked another player doesn't mean that people are only picking Fitz to try mess up the ratings.

I am not convinced by McFadden as a winger really and has yet to show he is capable of consistent top level performances. He didn't start the quarter final (only played 5 minutes), didn't start the semi final (got 20 minutes), didn't start the Heineken Cup final (got 10 minutes), played in the Magners Final at centre as Darcy was injured. Is a promising 12 but I can't justify picking him as a World Cup Back Three option ahead of Fitzgerald who I think is still a very good player, experienced and holds down a starting place in a winning team.

Not that people aren't picking Fitzgerald but a person picked Duffy for back3 and outside centre. In the lock article there was a vote for Mick O'driscoll.

I think McF has got attributes that beeter suit wing that Fitz in some cases. He is faster and can ride a tackle better and is a much better kicker. On top of that the amount of tries Fitz butchered is alarming to say the least and remember his 'pass' against Sarries in the RDS?

To be clear, my votes have gone to Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald, Kearney and Jones.

Notch-

Do you think McFadden will be the next irish 12 and if so will he be able to hold off Luke Marshall?

Fitzgerald has more problems than just confidence. He came back from his injury well (in the sense he didn't rush back) but he has just played bad game after bad game since then. Slight exaggeration apologies but you see where I am going with this

When is the squad actually being announced? Do you reckon they are waiting for us to finish? I'd like to think so but its not likely.

Notch wrote:For me, McFadden comes into the same category as Conor Murray and Felix Jones. Good breakthrough seasons, lack of experience, should probably come into the side after the World Cup when we have time to rebuild properly and introduce new players.

I disagree. I understand where you're coming from but I don't believe that having 2 of these guys in the squad (Murray has too much competition and won't go) will be detrimental to our chances. In a squad of 30 players I don't see the harm in bringing 2 "bolters" provided they are the best available options in terms of form, skill and fitness (all 3).

That's just my opinion of course.

Thomond-
Do you agree that you'd have to go for one of either Murphy or kearney or do you think earls and Jones are sufficent cover?

I agree with MMC but I do think Murray could go but think the same logic applies.

Boyne-
The squad is announced after the second French game (the only game than darcy could make to prove fitness and form) and before the English game (the last game before the RWC)

Pete its one thing taking your time coming back from an injury.
When its serious its another thing regain confidence in the knee.

My theory on Fitz is that he was wary of the knee and by the time he actually had confidence to play at full strenght his knee he had lost confidence in his game

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Notch-

Do you think McFadden will be the next irish 12 and if so will he be able to hold off Luke Marshall?

Fitzgerald has more problems than just confidence. He came back from his injury well (in the sense he didn't rush back) but he has just played bad game after bad game since then. Slight exaggeration apologies but you see where I am going with this

Luke Marshall is probably a few years off being ready for test rugby. McFadden is only about half a season with Leinster away from being ready. Maybe down the road McFadden will come under pressure from Marshall. I think the world of Marshall; he has huge potential.

Boyne wrote:When is the squad actually being announced? Do you reckon they are waiting for us to finish? I'd like to think so but its not likely.

Yeah deccie is likely to just wait to see what we pick and any 50/50 calls will go to the munster lads

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I agree with MMC but I do think Murray could go but think the same logic applies.

The biggest differences with Murray though is not only the fact that our other scrumhalfs haven't been injured all season (sure TOL's spent quite a bit of time out) but also that he's only broken through in the latter half of this season.
Jones and McFadden have been kicking around for a few seasons now and have both played in, and won, the Churchill Cup. They're further along the road than Murray IMO.

I'd love if Murray went, I would. But my head is telling me that it'd be better for Murray and for Ireland if he returned to his province to join their preseason and cement his place as their starting No.9 for the coming season.

You need at least one specialist full back so I would go for Kearney,Jones, Earls will probably start there anyway.

D24tress wrote:

Boyne wrote:When is the squad actually being announced? Do you reckon they are waiting for us to finish? I'd like to think so but its not likely.

Yeah deccie is likely to just wait to see what we pick and any 50/50 calls will go to the munster lads

MMC wrote:

D24tress wrote:

Boyne wrote:When is the squad actually being announced? Do you reckon they are waiting for us to finish? I'd like to think so but its not likely.

Yeah deccie is likely to just wait to see what we pick and any 50/50 calls will go to the munster lads

Kev-
I understand you, I dislocated my knee twice the second time when I was 18. Didn't have confidence for quite a while always wore a knee support. Only regained it 3 years later or so, so I understand his issue.

Will the time off really have given him more confidence or composure though? IMHO he should not have been starting the big games for Leinster. leinster were better IMO with McF on the wing.

I think a lot of McF's international hopes rest on if Darcy makes the RWC. If he doesn't McF should go and by then could be on the bench for the following 6n or even starting if he impresses. How old is Marshall now?

Only 3 votes between Fitz and McF.

So who else do you have to pick from Thomond?

Went with Bowe,Earls,Trimble,Fitzgerald,Jones and Kearney.

What was it that made you vote Fitz over McF? Was it versatility? Experience?

caoimhincentre wrote:One thing i will say about Kearney is he was very unlucky with the timing of his injury.

I think at leinster this year an aweful lot of players have embraced the way the game is going. It would have been very interesting to see how Kearney would have performed over a whole season at full back at leinster.

Despite how well Isa played this year, kearney was still 15 for leinster and was never going to be dropped from there because of the IRFU

I agree. The pre-season and early games, Schmidt had Kearney as 15 and Isa was on the wing. Kearney scored a try against racing at the rds didn't he? Thought he played well in that game and it was the early signs of joe letting the backs take the handbrake off. I think he has fallen into a similar trap as Heaslip where he went out injured, the replacements did very well in his absence and everyone forgot very quickly everything he brought to the table. Everyone in the 6Ns except for England put high balls in to the fullback and put pressure on to gain territory. Earls was in for the England game, but wasn't tested at all in that game defensively (he did excel going forward). I fully expect Kearney to be integral to any possibility of a decent rwc campaign.

As for Fitz, he closed out his season quite well in the final couple of games. He was poor at fullback, but fair dues to the man for putting his hand up and asking to fill a problem position at the time. He isn't being picked in the squad to go as a back up full back. He will be taken to be a winger, and by the time we are through training camp and the warm-up games, he could very well have nailed down not just a seat on the plane, but even the starting spot opposite Bowe!

Ouch Pete.

Form can be strange. I had one season and at the end the best way to describe how i was playing was "Pants". i couldn't even catch a ball my confidence was so low.

Come pre-season some thing clicked. Form is hard to explain.

Like i said i wouldn't mind Mcf going. Saying that if Fitz was on form i would have him going without debate.

Kidney will be watching him closely in training and warm ups.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
I think a lot of McF's international hopes rest on if Darcy makes the RWC. If he doesn't McF should go and by then could be on the bench for the following 6n or even starting if he impresses. How old is Marshall now?

Marshall is still only 19, I think. Maybe coming up to turning 20. Even though he's shown vast promise and could easily be getting some serious gametime for Ulster during the RWC, he still has a lot to learn before we can throw his name into these kinds of debates

A few things, I don't think Fitzgerald has been as bad this year as people say he was(mind you, he never really lived up to the hype he had from Leinster Senior Cup glory) He is a solid defender, quite versatile and has plenty of experience. McFadden has only 2 caps and couldn't start for Leinster. If he is really better than either Shaggy or Fitzgerald then why didn't he start? McFadden saw limited game time in the knockout stages of the HC. Fitzgerald also improved somewhat by the end of the season having a good ML semi final and a decent HC final.

Bowe, Earls, McFadden, Trimbel, Jones and Kearney hopefully Kearney will be back on form as he is world class when he is, now it gets interessing with the startingXV