606v2 picks the Irish RWC squad: BACK 3

First topic message reminder :

Morning all.
Hope everyone had a good weekend.

I have seen the Welsh and English have already started these kinda articles and it did seem like a good idea to try and have them all together.
So the series will determine who will be the Irish RWC squad according to the 606v2 community.

I will try and post up the next part of the series every weekday morning so we all have plenty of time to debate each position. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but try and keep a level head and back up your points with examples or clips or something.

I am going to go for a 16/14 split between the backs and forwards.
4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
6 backrow (1 able to play lock)
3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres (1 able to play flyhalf)
6 back 3

This is Kidney's 43 man squad.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/23313.php

So far the Squad is:
Healy, Ross, Buckley and Court
Best, Cronin and Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan and Cullen
Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, Wallace, Jennings and Ryan
Reddan, Stringer and Murray
Sexton and O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy and Wallace

We are looking to select 6 back 3 players. The 6 with the most votes will be the ones selected as per normal.

Bowe- An astounding finisher and deceptively quick with good acceleration and a swerve more than a step. Excellent at joining the line in midfield and the closest thing we have to Ashton in terms of running support lines. Good defence and an excellent fielder. Not a great kicker however and this hasn't been a great season for Bowe. Can play 13 and 15 at a push.
Earls- Lightening quick (fastest in the squad?) and second only to Bowe in terms of finishing in the Irish squad. Versatile in that he has international experience at wing, centre and fullback. Good kicker of the ball and an average fielder. Excellent at broken field running. Good defence for the most part also.
Trimble- Brings a different element to the back3. Very physical and good in the contact area, he makes yards after contact has been initiated. Deceptively quick and has improved his core skills. Good at cutting lines into the midfield. Not a great kicker or fielder but has improved here in recent times. Defence is generally good.
McFadden- Not much game time this year but when playing has excelled. Can play 11-14 comfortably. Very quick and good at making yards once contact has been taken. Good feet and can kick from hand and floor well. Good defence and good distributing skills. Lack of expereience may stand against him.
Fitzgerald- Out of form for the season just gone. Has ruined many try scoring chances and has made simple errors in contact, passing and support lines. Excellent defender and while not a great sprinter is very quick over 40m and has exceptional agility. Versatile in that he has international experience playing 11-15 although to differing levels of success. Not a good finisher. Ok kicker and poor fielder.
Kearney- No game time since November. Poor form since 2009 in many peoples opinion. A fantastic kicker and fielder and very quick in a straight line. Poor counterattacker and broken field runner. Doesn't pass or offload often enough and tends to run straight into defenders. Not the most adept 15 at joining the attacking line either. Poor defence. Has got big game experience.
Murphy- No game time since November. Had been in good form for the tigers. A leader in the team. Not physically impressive, not overly quick or strong. Has improved his fielding and tackling somewhat over the last couple of seasons. Very creative and excellent at joing the line and a good counterattacker. An average fielder and kicker of the ball for an international 15. Not as much of a loose canon as once was.
Jones- No international or HCup experience. Excellent form for Munster. Excellent defence and quite creative in attack be in counterattacking or joining the line. Very agile and fairly quick too. Not the greatest fielder and an average kicker of the ball. Great hands when joining the line.
Duffy- Steady but not a World Class player. Can play 15 and 13. Good defence and a good fielder and kicker but not as effective with ball in hand. Not exceptionally quick, agile or stong but has a calm head and generally makes the right decisions.

NB: Horgan has not been included because his injury will see him out during the start of the RWC.

This is the last article in this series. Tomorrow I will begin a new series working out who our best starting XV are out of the squad that we on 606v2 have chosen.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Lads-

Not going to define where the line is but keep provincial s*** out of this ok?!
Simple as!
This series has been free from all that rubbish, we are selecting the Irish team provinces shouldn't come into it.

Val-
I simply don't see where you can come up with Kearney running back the ball effectively at all this side of the Lions tour.
Who cares if he was good then?!
He has not been a counterattacking fullback since then even in the 09 6n he kicked most of the ball he got or ran at defenders.

Oh well, I think our arguement has run its course tbh.

So people really don't like Murphy then eh?

You've said he can't/is bad at counterattacking and running the ball I was just using the most high profile high pressure series he has played in as an example of him doing it. Ireland played an extremely defensive style of rugby in that campaign. But even still in the build up to the heaslip try, kearney joins the line, goes through a gap before offloading in the tackle to keep the move going. Under cheika, Leinster played a defensive gameplan yet there are still loads of time when kearney displayed the qualities you are saying he does not have.

I said he is one of the best full backs in the world and I stand by that statement, what I would argue is that if given a gameplan he will stick to it too strictly but when he is given the freedom to play he is as good as anyone in the northern hempishere and only behind beale. But unlike beale he won't explode and make a huge mistake. Beale is just as likely to miss a tackle as him.

Tayto If kearney starts against australia he will do fine; just like he has done everytime he has played them. With the amount of hopeless box kicks genia will do, like he did against the crusaders, I'd say he will thrive and put in a huge performance.

tayto has got a point with regards to selecting Kearney against Oz. We have to hold the ball against Oz and I don't think Kearney is the man to help us do that. Earls or Jones would be better here particularily earls with his pace.

Val that is the one break I can remember him making can't think of any others.

caoimhincentre wrote:

Sin é wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:start it somewhere else so. don't do it on this thread

So it becomes Munster v Leinster as soon as a Leinster player (Healy) is assessed negatively on his performance, but Hayes & Horan are assessed on their age.

Interesting way of selecting a team.

Sin,

You know well were the conversation is heading

I didn't start the abusive comments about leinster players. Maybe you could ask your Leinster pals to show a bit of respect for John Hayes and I won't have to but in.

Pete, before you start preaching about provincial bias, perhaps you might acknowledge like you said you would that you were proven to be completely wrong in your view about Denis Leamy's disciplinary record.

That's why I have argued for Hayes selection against Oz as he will give us great options in the lineout.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:tayto has got a point with regards to selecting Kearney against Oz. We have to hold the ball against Oz and I don't think Kearney is the man to help us do that. Earls or Jones would be better here particularily earls with his pace.

Val that is the one break I can remember him making can't think of any others.

I'm not going to trawl through youtube looking for them but I can remember plenty of other examples, of the top of my head and most relevant to this debate would be the bod try against aus in aus in 2008.

edit: found it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2i9s9hCjwE , paddy wallace and leamy were also excellent in that match, the wallace pass in the build up is something none of our other centre options can do including bod

Sin é wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

Sin é wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:start it somewhere else so. don't do it on this thread

So it becomes Munster v Leinster as soon as a Leinster player (Healy) is assessed negatively on his performance, but Hayes & Horan are assessed on their age.

Interesting way of selecting a team.

Sin,

You know well were the conversation is heading

I didn't start the abusive comments about leinster players. Maybe you could ask your Leinster pals to show a bit of respect for John Hayes and I won't have to but in.

Pete, before you start preaching about provincial bias, perhaps you might acknowledge like you said you would that you were proven to be completely wrong in your view about Denis Leamy's disciplinary record.

Sin you are just getting silly now. why are you under the impression that i was talking just to Munster fans. It was directed to both sides. Now drop it and get back to real debate

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Lads-

Not going to define where the line is but keep provincial s*** out of this ok?!
Simple as!
This series has been free from all that rubbish, we are selecting the Irish team provinces shouldn't come into it.

Val-
I simply don't see where you can come up with Kearney running back the ball effectively at all this side of the Lions tour.
Who cares if he was good then?!
He has not been a counterattacking fullback since then even in the 09 6n he kicked most of the ball he got or ran at defenders.

Oh well, I think our arguement has run its course tbh.

So people really don't like Murphy then eh?

You've said he can't/is bad at counterattacking and running the ball I was just using the most high profile high pressure series he has played in as an example of him doing it. Ireland played an extremely defensive style of rugby in that campaign. But even still in the build up to the heaslip try, kearney joins the line, goes through a gap before offloading in the tackle to keep the move going. Under cheika, Leinster played a defensive gameplan yet there are still loads of time when kearney displayed the qualities you are saying he does not have.

I said he is one of the best full backs in the world and I stand by that statement, what I would argue is that if given a gameplan he will stick to it too strictly but when he is given the freedom to play he is as good as anyone in the northern hempishere and only behind beale. But unlike beale he won't explode and make a huge mistake. Beale is just as likely to miss a tackle as him.

Tayto If kearney starts against australia he will do fine; just like he has done everytime he has played them. With the amount of hopeless box kicks genia will do, like he did against the crusaders, I'd say he will thrive and put in a huge performance.

First of all, I think Kearney will come good again, but not in time for the world cup. You are expecting a lot of him to come back from a fairly serious injury and change his style of play. To counter attack isn't his natural game - like it is for all the rest of them.

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Boyne wrote:If Murphy travels I will not be happy at all. It will smack of jobs for the lads. As will a Hayes inclusion. Ditto Horan.

Considering he is Munsters starting tight heads and the alternative is Tony Buckley he is a good option.

Considering Hayes sent Healy flying backwards in the Magners final (having played 80 mins of rugby), smacks of Declan Kidney wanting to bring a prop who might help win a few games in the world cup.

Keep telling that to yourself sine. Healy wasnt ripping it up in the HC final the week before? Where was the bull? Milking the cows??

The bull is finished. Come to terms with it.

Ok, I'm dying to ask, why vote for Duffy?

I'm sure there are legitimate reasons for doing it, he's the only true FB who isn't coming back from a long layoff, for example. But I can't help but think that's a bit of either a wishful thinking pick, a soupçon of green-jersey loyalty (lovely jersey, though) or a bit of mischievousness.

My picks are up in the air. I can see arguments for and against Kearney and Murphy, but we've already added Flannery, Jennings, Ferris... so far we're a walking hospital ward. The end result is becoming an 'ideal' squad rather than a realistic one, less solid with each round. The pitfalls of picking in isolation, I suppose.

And a lesson in why democracy is a bad thing

Sin-
you really like trying to get under the skin don't you. It wasn't provincial bias, a lot of was the fact that Leamy told the ref he wanted to get moved back 10m and because I felt he gave a lot of penalties away.

Your stats don't inspire much confidence in me especially when you are selective about them. If you showed me stats for the whole year then I would know that you hadn't selected a bad patch for SOB and a good for Leamy.

Meant in the 6n tournament 09. O'kelly was playing relatively well in 08 Val.

Sin é wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:start it somewhere else so. don't do it on this thread

So it becomes Munster v Leinster as soon as a Leinster player (Healy) is assessed negatively on his performance, but Hayes & Horan are assessed on their age.

Interesting way of selecting a team.

No. Horan and Hayes are assesed as being shoite props.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Lads-

Not going to define where the line is but keep provincial s*** out of this ok?!
Simple as!
This series has been free from all that rubbish, we are selecting the Irish team provinces shouldn't come into it.

Val-
I simply don't see where you can come up with Kearney running back the ball effectively at all this side of the Lions tour.
Who cares if he was good then?!
He has not been a counterattacking fullback since then even in the 09 6n he kicked most of the ball he got or ran at defenders.

Oh well, I think our arguement has run its course tbh.

So people really don't like Murphy then eh?

You've said he can't/is bad at counterattacking and running the ball I was just using the most high profile high pressure series he has played in as an example of him doing it. Ireland played an extremely defensive style of rugby in that campaign. But even still in the build up to the heaslip try, kearney joins the line, goes through a gap before offloading in the tackle to keep the move going. Under cheika, Leinster played a defensive gameplan yet there are still loads of time when kearney displayed the qualities you are saying he does not have.

I said he is one of the best full backs in the world and I stand by that statement, what I would argue is that if given a gameplan he will stick to it too strictly but when he is given the freedom to play he is as good as anyone in the northern hempishere and only behind beale. But unlike beale he won't explode and make a huge mistake. Beale is just as likely to miss a tackle as him.

Tayto If kearney starts against australia he will do fine; just like he has done everytime he has played them. With the amount of hopeless box kicks genia will do, like he did against the crusaders, I'd say he will thrive and put in a huge performance.

First of all, I think Kearney will come good again, but not in time for the world cup. You are expecting a lot of him to come back from a fairly serious injury and change his style of play. To counter attack isn't his natural game - like it is for all the rest of them.

If allowed to by the coach he has shown he is capable of doing it. I want him in the squad with jones mainly because the other options are rudey poo and I really don't want duffy, murphy or fitz anywhere near the squad. I'm pretty sure he has been fit for the last while and could have been back for leinster if they had needed him but he wanted to stay out to get back to 100%. After a good preseason I'm confident he will be back to his best.

The kearney arguement is completely redundent because all he did was play to tactics that were set out for him.

sin e come on now everyone knows about dirty dinny leamy

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Lads-

Not going to define where the line is but keep provincial s*** out of this ok?!
Simple as!
This series has been free from all that rubbish, we are selecting the Irish team provinces shouldn't come into it.

Here here

I seem to remember a lot of hype building around a young Rob Kearney after he put in a great performance against Australia on a summer tour (in '08 I think?). And the hype started because it was the Australian's who were hailing his performance just as much as the Irish.

He has to be given a chance in the warm ups. If he's way off match sharpness then we can consider not bringing him. We can't bring Earls (a brilliant winger) and Jones (no caps) as our two fullbacks, unless we are really stuck. Jones looks brilliant. But we can't just presume he'll jump into test rugby (at a world cup no less), and be instantly great.

Greybeard-
"It's Gollum, he's been following us for days." -Gandalf

Someone has been voting for Duffy, Mick O'Driscoll and Spence to be put into our world cup squad. Think Wilkinson got a vote too.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sin-
you really like trying to get under the skin don't you. It wasn't provincial bias, a lot of was the fact that Leamy told the ref he wanted to get moved back 10m and because I felt he gave a lot of penalties away.

Your stats don't inspire much confidence in me especially when you are selective about them. If you showed me stats for the whole year then I would know that you hadn't selected a bad patch for SOB and a good for Leamy.

Meant in the 6n tournament 09. O'kelly was playing relatively well in 08 Val.

You said that Kearney can't do these things, and I used examples of him doing it. The ones I can remember are obviously going to be from the most high profile games hes played and just because they happened a while ago doesn't mean they are irrelevant. The comparison with MOK is irrelevant, however; MOK has retired and old age caught up on him, Kearney has been injured and is still young. I'm not going to change your mind but at least stay consistent; you said at first that he can't do it, now you are asking for examples in the last year.

On the Leamy/SOB penalty debate; iirc the stats he showed you were from the hec group stages which are the same time. Leamy was very good for munster during that period and was carrying the backrow due to wally being in poor form and coughlan not really up to hec level. Leamy has a reputation for giving away penalties and getting yellows but he is not that bad. The 10 metre thing was stupid and an example of him letting his frustration get the better of him. The ref had been quite poor in that match but he shouldnt have reacted. I though poc was going to kill him after that.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sin-
you really like trying to get under the skin don't you. It wasn't provincial bias, a lot of was the fact that Leamy told the ref he wanted to get moved back 10m and because I felt he gave a lot of penalties away.

Your stats don't inspire much confidence in me especially when you are selective about them. If you showed me stats for the whole year then I would know that you hadn't selected a bad patch for SOB and a good for Leamy.

Meant in the 6n tournament 09. O'kelly was playing relatively well in 08 Val.

So Leamy's disciplinary career is now defined by one or two incidents. Jamie Heaslip should retire if that is the case. I gave you stats for Leamy's last 12 Heineken Cup Games because they were available. Nothing selective about that.

Leamys not going anywhere. So relax. He can rebuild his career in the Pro 12 with a Munster 15.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I seem to remember a lot of hype building around a young Rob Kearney after he put in a great performance against Australia on a summer tour (in '08 I think?). And the hype started because it was the Australian's who were hailing his performance just as much as the Irish.

He has to be given a chance in the warm ups. If he's way off match sharpness then we can consider not bringing him. We can't bring Earls (a brilliant winger) and Jones (no caps) as our two fullbacks, unless we are really stuck. Jones looks brilliant. But we can't just presume he'll jump into test rugby (at a world cup no less), and be instantly great.

Jones will step up I'm entirely confident of that, but I agree that we should bring two specialist full backs.

Pete I'd say there is a good chance of wilkinson going, kidney will probably go for a 17/13 split with 5 props. Two tight heads and three looseheads; which would be healy, court and wilkinson.

The one thing i think we can be certain of is that we will pick up a injury somewhere along the lines and you can be certain that there will be call ups.

Are you allowed bring reserves with you just incase

Val- I know I said he can't do it what you have proved is that he could do it. I hope he proves me wrong. Either way I have voted for Kearney as I think he will offer something different to the rest of the backs.

I used to like him a lot but not really anymore. I don't think he will win his place off Nacewa for a reason other than the IRFU having words but I do think he will start counterattacking again the way he did from 07 til 09.

Leamy's record isn't defined by 1 or 2 instances that is just what drew my attention as it is relatively recent. I'd want to see a really broad covering of stats to believe them.

He may go for a 17/13 but would make more sense to go for a 16/14 as we don't have many quality props. If lets say Healy was badly injured and was ruled out of the tournament I imagine Wilkinson would be called in. You are allowed to do this I believe from what I have heard of the tournament rules.

I agree that we need two specialist fullbacks 100%

"I agree that we need two specialist fullbacks 100%"

Thats what is boils down to. Considering Ireland lack of faith in the young in general, I think its almost guarantees Kearney will go.

It'll be Kearney / Murphy or Kearney / Jones......

It should be Kearney Jones. Jones deserves to go based on his performances over the last while and the style of player he is.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Leamy's record isn't defined by 1 or 2 instances that is just what drew my attention as it is relatively recent. I'd want to see a really broad covering of stats to believe them.

He may go for a 17/13 but would make more sense to go for a 16/14 as we don't have many quality props. If lets say Healy was badly injured and was ruled out of the tournament I imagine Wilkinson would be called in. You are allowed to do this I believe from what I have heard of the tournament rules.

I agree that we need two specialist fullbacks 100%

I'll leave the Kearney debate after this; I don't think the IRFU will have to step in as I believe Leinster are stronger with him there, and I get frustrated that Leinster fans will back most of their players but seem to be against kearney.

Kearney and Jones will go; Kidney may be conservative but he will pick who he thinks he is best and players he rates will need less form than those he doesn't. For that reason I think he will pick Jones, he likes him and has worked with him before.

This may also be a factor in leamy v jennings and the injury jennings has had may count against him. I think most people are extremely harsh on leamy, he gives away penalties at times but, nowadays very few of them are stupid ones, they are usually calculated risks. He lost it a bit at the end of the season but I think he will be better next season, the guy has been plagued with injuries but he is a good player even if he has lost some power.

On the issue of the split, I think it will be 17/13 and I think it makes sense as our backs are quite versatile. I'd be willing to bet that Kidney knows his squad and only spectacular displays will change it.

Yeah Val that is the best thing about Kidney, if he really believes someone is good enough to go, he really doesn't mind raising some eyebrows. We saw that with TOL and Hurley. He has quite a strong character in that sense.

Don't see the point in going with a 17/13 split myself unless maybe we wanted to take another pure second row.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Yeah Val that is the best thing about Kidney, if he really believes someone is good enough to go, he really doesn't mind raising some eyebrows. We saw that with TOL and Hurley. He has quite a strong character in that sense.

Don't see the point in going with a 17/13 split myself unless maybe we wanted to take another pure second row.

For a 17 split it would break down;

5 props; Healy, Court, Ross, Buckley/Hayes, Wilkinson
3 hookers; Best, Cronin, Varley/Fla
4 locks; Poc, Cullen, Doc, Ryan
5 Backrows; Sob, Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip, Jennings/Leamy

In the backs;

3 scrumhalves; Tol, Reddan, Stringer
2 10's; Sexton, Rog
3 centres; Darce, Bod, Wallace
5 outside backs; Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Kearney, Fitz/Jones.

Kearney can cover the wing if necessay as can tol. Combinations in the frontrow are much more important and harder to get right. If healy got injured I'd prefer to have cover there already, someone who has been training under the same scrum coach and who knows the lineout calls than flying someone around the world at the last minute. Its not as hard to fly a back out. Kidney's hand might be forced if fitz and jones were to both but in good displays forcing him to take them both.

I know that mcfadden is doing well in this poll but I really don't think he will make the squad unless there are a few injuries. Its a nice position to be in to be able to leave players of his quality at home whereas at the last wc we had duffy and brian carney in the squad.

Id' rather have five props than six back three players myself come to think of it.

Hmmm not sure how to digest that.

i get the idea of just having more forwards to get combos right and durability etc but our standard of front row players doesn't warrant it in my opinion.

Also, I think DK will bring players who won't be with the squad but may be in NZ or Australia.

Realistically anyone who is on standby and there will be quite a few they will still be training everyday whereever they are and will learn the calls, lineouts etc on the way over.

This is all speculation but I imagine this is the way they will do it

5 backs rather than 6 back3. I think it's the quality of our back3 compared to our front row.

Is Wilkinson ever going to be trusted in the world cup though? Like even against USA and Russia the absolute most he'd get is a 20 minute cameo at the end (and I doubt it because I'd still put Healy/Ross on the bench just in case in those games). We don't have any sort of decent depth in props so I really don't see the point in bringing Wilkinson. If someone get's injured, call him up, but otherwise, I just don't understand the logic.

Whoever the sixth back three man is would have a realistic chance of getting some meaningful game time and for me is more useful than bringing Wilkinson. Each to their own though

Wilkinson?? Surley Marcus Horan would travel instead. Wilkinson has never played for Ireland. Taking an uncapped prop would be a massive call.

I'd rather stick to 4 props really.

mrsuperclear wrote:Is Wilkinson ever going to be trusted in the world cup though? Like even against USA and Russia the absolute most he'd get is a 20 minute cameo at the end (and I doubt it because I'd still put Healy/Ross on the bench just in case in those games). We don't have any sort of decent depth in props so I really don't see the point in bringing Wilkinson. If someone get's injured, call him up, but otherwise, I just don't understand the logic.

Whoever the sixth back three man is would have a realistic chance of getting some meaningful game time and for me is more useful than bringing Wilkinson. Each to their own though

+1

In the end you'd be bringing the guy to cover players but wouldn't trust him to do that. Horan wouldn't quite be in the same boat but wouldn't be a million miles of it.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Hmmm not sure how to digest that.

i get the idea of just having more forwards to get combos right and durability etc but our standard of front row players doesn't warrant it in my opinion.

Also, I think DK will bring players who won't be with the squad but may be in NZ or Australia.

Realistically anyone who is on standby and there will be quite a few they will still be training everyday whereever they are and will learn the calls, lineouts etc on the way over.

This is all speculation but I imagine this is the way they will do it

5 backs rather than 6 back3. I think it's the quality of our back3 compared to our front row.

Afaik you aren't allowed to do that.
I'd say that the poor quality of our props means that it is more likely to happen. If our props were excellent we could just bring them in and they'd be straight up to the required standard but I'd expect they need as much help as possible.

mrsuperclear if we bring five props then we can rest ross and healy completely as court and buckley/hayes can start with wilkinson on the bench.

stag wilkinson has had a full season playing well for connacht whereas horan has missed time and still doesn't seem fully fit. Horan is half the player he used to be and although his scrummaging is decent the rest of his game has dropped off a cliff. Not that you can blame him, if im honest im surprised he is even back playing.

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Hmmm not sure how to digest that.

i get the idea of just having more forwards to get combos right and durability etc but our standard of front row players doesn't warrant it in my opinion.

Also, I think DK will bring players who won't be with the squad but may be in NZ or Australia.

Realistically anyone who is on standby and there will be quite a few they will still be training everyday whereever they are and will learn the calls, lineouts etc on the way over.

This is all speculation but I imagine this is the way they will do it

5 backs rather than 6 back3. I think it's the quality of our back3 compared to our front row.

Afaik you aren't allowed to do that.
I'd say that the poor quality of our props means that it is more likely to happen. If our props were excellent we could just bring them in and they'd be straight up to the required standard but I'd expect they need as much help as possible.

You can replace an injured player from outside the squad, but there's a 48-hour delay between the team being allowed to "call" for a replacement and the replacement being allowed to play - it's so all teams are on a level playing field wrt distance/jet lag. Though if they're closer they can train with the team sooner.

Most teams generally select 4 props in a 30-man RWC squad, though next time around if the 2-props on the bench regulation is universally adopted then I can see squad sizes going up to 31 and 5 props selected

What actually happened to Horan do you mind me asking?

I'd stick with 4 I don't think we should be so confident (re: our front row) as to not have Healy or Ross on the bench against Russia and one of them should possibly start against the USA.

Thanks Kiwi-
So could we technically have Horan, Varley, MOD, Leamy, TOL, Humphreys, Fitzgerald, Duffy in New zealand on "holiday"??

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:What actually happened to Horan do you mind me asking?

I'd stick with 4 I don't think we should be so confident (re: our front row) as to not have Healy or Ross on the bench against Russia and one of them should possibly start against the USA.

Thanks Kiwi-
So could we technically have Horan, Varley, MOD, Leamy, TOL, Humphreys, Fitzgerald, Duffy in New zealand on "holiday"??

No rule against it. Though their provincial sides might moan a bit

Wilkinson is hardly going to be first choice in the big matches, but against USA & Russian? Why not, he has played against the likes of those teams for the Wolfhounds.

But of course, the question arises about what would happen if Healy was to get injured with Australia next up, in which case I'd be more comfortable with the idea of Horan stepping in.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:What actually happened to Horan do you mind me asking?

I'd stick with 4 I don't think we should be so confident (re: our front row) as to not have Healy or Ross on the bench against Russia and one of them should possibly start against the USA.

Thanks Kiwi-
So could we technically have Horan, Varley, MOD, Leamy, TOL, Humphreys, Fitzgerald, Duffy in New zealand on "holiday"??

I'd say they might see through that.
And on a serious note it would be better for them to be playing pro12 rugby so that they are actually match fit.
Horan had heart problems and I don't think it would be right to go into the exact problems on here but it was fairly bad.

greybeard wrote:Wilkinson is hardly going to be first choice in the big matches, but against USA & Russian? Why not, he has played against the likes of those teams for the Wolfhounds.

But of course, the question arises about what would happen if Healy was to get injured with Australia next up, in which case I'd be more comfortable with the idea of Horan stepping in.

Well court would be next in line but if he was injured as well it would be a real problem.

Yeah I'd say they would but realistically the IRFU can slap them one and tell them to get back in their boxes.

Cheers Val, knwe it was serious but didn't know how serious. Porr fella, fair play to him for coming back even this far

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:What actually happened to Horan do you mind me asking?

I'd stick with 4 I don't think we should be so confident (re: our front row) as to not have Healy or Ross on the bench against Russia and one of them should possibly start against the USA.

Thanks Kiwi-
So could we technically have Horan, Varley, MOD, Leamy, TOL, Humphreys, Fitzgerald, Duffy in New zealand on "holiday"??

I'd say they might see through that.
And on a serious note it would be better for them to be playing pro12 rugby so that they are actually match fit.
Horan had heart problems and I don't think it would be right to go into the exact problems on here but it was fairly bad.

Its described as a minor heart ailment in the link below.

The initial diagnosis was the problem, not the actual ailment.

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1182:horan-has-the-heart-for-battle&catid=38:rugby&Itemid=37

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:What actually happened to Horan do you mind me asking?

I'd stick with 4 I don't think we should be so confident (re: our front row) as to not have Healy or Ross on the bench against Russia and one of them should possibly start against the USA.

Thanks Kiwi-
So could we technically have Horan, Varley, MOD, Leamy, TOL, Humphreys, Fitzgerald, Duffy in New zealand on "holiday"??

I'd say they might see through that.
And on a serious note it would be better for them to be playing pro12 rugby so that they are actually match fit.
Horan had heart problems and I don't think it would be right to go into the exact problems on here but it was fairly bad.

Its described as a minor heart ailment in the link below.

The initial diagnosis was the problem, not the actual ailment.

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1182:horan-has-the-heart-for-battle&catid=38:rugby&Itemid=37

edit: actually on second thoughts its really not the place to go into it.

I went for:

Bowe
Earls
Trimble
McFadden
Jones
Murphy

I dont think Fitzgerald should be anywhere near a WC squad right now, I also think he has been incredibly poorly managed. To keep picking a player who is badly out of form again and again and again in the Leinster XV was a critical error, especially when McFadden was there to play at 11. I genuinely feel that if Fitzgerald had just been dropped for at least a couple of games and McFadden was played instead it would of been all the better for Fitzgerald. Unfortunately this didnt happen and I think whoever is behind Fitzgerald continously being picked at 11 for Leinster (Schmidt or Kidney) has actually done him quite a lot of harm.

He doesnt seem able to hit rock bottom so that he can then recover and build form again, instead he gets picked no matter what for Leinster. Psychologically maybe all he needed was to be dropped for 1 or 2 games. For these reasons I would take McFadden over him which shows what a shambles this situation is when the majority think that McFadden should be ahead of Fitzgerald for Ireland, yet Fitzgerald is guaranteed to be ahead of McFadden for Leinster - ludicrous.

Other than that, I think Jones should definately go at fullback and I'm not that fussed on who goes between Murphy and Kearney, gone for Murphy but wouldnt mind seeing Kearney get another chance.

I think each FB should play 1 of the 3 warm-up matchs with Earls possibly playing vs england after the 30 man squad is named
This might give us a small hint to who is playing well

Bowe, Kearney, Trimble, Fitzgerald, Earls, Murphy.

Looks right. It is right.

If they all come through the Summer Tests unscathed - that's our 6. They all have the proven talent and experience and will be top of Kidneys list to make it to the World Cup.

As for the rest, their only hope, is if one of these 6 dont survive the Summer Tests, fit and in some kind of form.

That's how I see it.

Is Murphy up for it Gibbo? Thats my concern.

Do you mean fitness or ability-wise Stag?

Fitness - none of us know yet.
Ability on the biggest stage - a big yes.

He was in red-hot form before his injury.Was stepping ahead of the injured Kearney for Irish selection. So I don't think he's lost it.

Just cant see Kidney leaving a WC, attacking FB behind, if he's fit. And taking a rookie instead. He wont.

Fitness wise. He's clearly good enough.

You never know though. Jones is a rookie but he's played Magners League, European Cup, Ireland A and is the starting fullback for Munster. If he gets a couple of caps in the summer he may have done enough to nick a place.

The fact we have Kearney might mean that Kidney could relax his experience criteria slightly. Shane Horgan wasn't going to make the plane even if he was fit despite playing well and being as experienced as he is. You never know what Kidney will do.

The option that none of us have thought about picking McFadden AND Fitzgerald. Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Kearney too. With Kearney, Earls, Fitz and Bowe covering fullback.

I'd love to see a fully fit and motivated Geordan Murphy giving it one last lash for Ireland on the big stage.

I'm just concerned that he hasn't played in so long. Flannery, Ferris, Kearney, Murphy- I'm concerned at the lack of gametime there. I'm particularly concerned at two fullbacks being out for so long- if Flannery and Ferris take a while to get back to full fitness, there are quality experienced players who can step in in there positions.

I'm concerned both of our fullbacks need gametime.

I need to see them both getting onto the pitch, playing well and looking comfortable in the warm-up games personally.