Front Five Strength and Depth, how do Wales compare to the other top ten teams?

First topic message reminder :

There has been a few posts suggesting that Wales really lack any depth in the front five, that the Front Five are also not all that good.

First Question, Strength...?

The Welsh set piece has been an issue since the the late eighties, but i thought that we really seemed to be turning a corner this last few years. An all Welsh lions front row was a great surprise.

The Second Row and particularly the Welsh line out has been dire to be flattering, it has been such a non event that we tried to avoid using it or a while.

This also seemed to improve over the last 12 months.

Then the main question Depth?

Battered by a number of injuries our former first choice Gethin Jenkins may well have slipped down the ranks to second place with the emergence of Paul James his former deputy. Adam Jones has also had a few nasty injuries and the emergence of Craig Mitchell has bolstered that. I thought Craig did very well in the six nations at tighthead, and I was very sad to see him leave the field with a dislocated shoulder against Ireland. Matthew Rees has been a shinning light at Hooker and proved a good captain, Richard Hibbard has had a great season at the Ospreys and has performed well for Wales too.

In the Second row AW Jones seems to be a consistent and unmovable object with the selectors, Bradly Davies has proved to be an able companion, behind them we have Ryan Jones who has had a great turn of form this year and Luke Chateris, who though often exemplary at Regional level, has been in 50/50 form for Wales.

Are we any different to any other nations?

Wales

LH
James
Jenkins

HK
Rees
Hibbard

TH
Jones
Mitchell

Lock
AW Jones
Davies
Charteris
R Jones

Ireland

LH
Healey
Horan

HK
Best
Flannery

TH
Ross
Buckley

Lock
O'Connell
O'Callaghan
O'Driscoll
Cullen

Scotland

LH
Cross
Jacobsen

HK
Hall
Ford

TH
Murray
Low

LK
Gray
Hamilton
Hines
Kellock

France

LH
Barchella
Domingo

HK
Servat
Szarzewski

TH
Mas
Marconnet

Lock
Millo-Chluski
Lionel Nallet
Pascal Papé
Julien Pierre

England

LH
Sheridan
Corbisiero

HK
Hartley
Thomson

TH
Cole
Doran-Jones

Lock
Lawes
Deacon
Palmer
Shaw

SA

LH
Du Plessis
Botha

HK
Du Plessis
Smit

TH
Mtawarira
Steenkamp

LK
Botha
Matfield
Van der Merwe
Rossouw
Bekker

Aus

LH
Alexander
Daley

HK
Stephen Moore
Tatafu Polota-Nau

TH
Robinson

LK
Sharpe


NZ

LH
Afoa
Woodcock

HK
Hore
Mealamu

TH
Tialata
Franks

Locks
Anthony Boric
Tom Donnelly
Brad Thorn Lock
Sam Whitelock
Williams

NZ, SA and France have better strength and Depth than Wales. But I don't think we are far enough short of the mark in international depth for it to be a crying concern.

Or maybe it is the fact that our depth has been so poor for so long that now we have any it is such a massive relief?

maestegmafia wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I personally think the Welsh first choice front five has the edge on the Scotland front five, but that our reserve front 5 would have the edge on the Welsh reserve front five, meaning that Wales would have the edge on quality, but Scotland the edge on depth.

1st choice:

1. Jenkins vs. Jacobsen (Wales)
2. Rees vs. Ford (Wales)
3. Jones vs. Cross (Wales)
4. Davies vs. Gray (equal)
5. Jones vs. Hines (Scotland)

2nd choice:

1. James vs. Dickinson (Wales)
2. Hibbard vs. Lawson (equal)
3. Mitchell vs. Murray (Scotland)
4. Charteris vs. Hamilton (equal)
5. Reed vs. Kellock (Scotland)

Just my take on it. Pretty even really.

Nicely done... That looks about right...!

Yeah, I agree it is pretty fair.

A realistic unbiassed comparison, for me I prefer Ian Evans in the squad over Reed and Charteris.

glamorganalun wrote:A realistic unbiassed comparison, for me I prefer Ian Evans in the squad over Reed and Charteris.

Not a bad call, I thought he had a good season.

Wales

1) Gethin Jenkins, Paul James, Duncan Jones, Ryan Bevington

2) Matthew Rees, Richard Hibbard

3) Adam Jones, Craig Mitchell, Paul James, Scott Andrews, John Yapp

Could do with another decent hooker, though to be fair Hibbard is a good player.

We got plenty of locks so not worth mentioning.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I personally think the Welsh first choice front five has the edge on the Scotland front five, but that our reserve front 5 would have the edge on the Welsh reserve front five, meaning that Wales would have the edge on quality, but Scotland the edge on depth.

1st choice:

1. Jenkins vs. Jacobsen (Wales)
2. Rees vs. Ford (Wales)
3. Jones vs. Cross (Wales)
4. Davies vs. Gray (equal)
5. Jones vs. Hines (Scotland)

2nd choice:

1. James vs. Dickinson (Wales)
2. Hibbard vs. Lawson (equal)
3. Mitchell vs. Murray (Scotland)
4. Charteris vs. Hamilton (equal)
5. Reed vs. Kellock (Scotland)

Just my take on it. Pretty even really.

fES, think you're being a little generous. It won't be popular, but I'd have Rees and Ford about equal, Ford shades it for me round the park, Rees marginally better in the set-piece, and I'd have Gray ahead of Davies, not to say that the latter isn't a good player, just that Gray is step above. Think Hibbard is a better all-round hooker than Lawson (penalty machine) tho, and Hamilton is some distance ahead of Charteris for me. Just my opinions tho, so I'd have:

1st choice:

1. Jenkins vs. Jacobsen (Wales)
2. Rees vs. Ford (equal)
3. Jones vs. Cross (Wales)
4. Davies vs. Gray (Scotland)
5. Jones vs. Hines (Scotland)

2nd choice:

1. James vs. Dickinson (Wales)
2. Hibbard vs. Lawson (Wales)
3. Mitchell vs. Murray (Scotland)
4. Charteris vs. Hamilton (Scotland)
5. Reed vs. Kellock (Scotland)

ASBO - I did actually have a bit of a think about Hibbard and Lawson. Hibbard is the bigger bloke and when he gets the bit between his teeth is actually a very good hooker in the loose. Lawson is the more mobile player and gets through more work. I'd say he's a more consistent player and his line-out work is better. Because I couldn't make up my mind, I put them at equal.

Happy to have Gray ahead of Davies. Perhaps the better way of doing it would be to say that Davies and Hines are equal (which I think is about right), and that Gray has moved ahead of Alan Wyn Jones over the last season. Gets you to the same outcome, but is perhaps clearer in both cases.

I can't agree with you on Ford vs Rees though. I'm still waiting on Ford to fully realise his potential, and Rees is pretty handy around the park. Rees reached a level with the Lions that we haven't seen from Ford yet. Ford has the potential to be better, but owes us a big World Cup.