The Sarries : An unscientific straw poll.

Many posters will know that I'm a sceptical about the Sarries' SA-based business model.

So I'll not be contributing to the vote. But I'll be active in the debate.

But here's my argument:

1. Despite the smoke an mirrors suggesting the contrary, the club has nothing to do with England or English rugby. It's a Saffer Trojan Horse. This has been more than demonstrated by today's announcement that they want to shift a major HEC fixture to Cape Town.

2. Jeff sides are not franchises - however the ownership is organised. The bare-faced opportunism of the 'English champions' to exploit their current position is disrespectful not only to Jeff teams but is an insult to every other HEC side. The PRL (and the RFU if we had a functional one) should be proposing an automatic relegation penalty.

Despite my vote I don't have misgivings about the business plan. I'm sure it all makes sense from a business point of view.

I have misgivings that they don't value their home fans enough to play all their significant games... well, at home. Rugby is more than a business.

I think they're doing things right. They do give young English players a chance and their academy is working plus they are building their own home ground.

They do have different ideas but it's good they're not ruling out ways of bringing in new fans.

A couple of Irishmen provide qualified support for the Sarries.

I wonder how they'd feel if it were Munster or Leinster or Ulster?

I don't see anything worng with Saracens desire to try to promote their brand abroad and therefore increase their fanbase and in turn revenure streams. However, by choosing such a high profile and important game they have risked alienating their home based fans which could have a detrimental effect.

They would have been better selecting an LV Cup tie or the AP match that had the lowest attendance at home last season (my guess would be Newcastle) and taking that abroad, as there is less chance of upsetting their fans by taking the plum Heineken Cup tie away from them.

Portnoys,

The difference is they are provinces and not clubs so not so easily comparable, if at all.

I'm fine with it. I don't see why it matters that a significant number of Saracens foreign players are South African. Their backline is mostly English (Wyles has lived in English since we was 11). It was only a couple of seasons ago that Saints and Gloucester has a handful of English forwards each. Now both have about 5 first choice English forwards.

MBTGOG wrote:
Portnoys,

The difference is they are provinces and not clubs so not so easily comparable, if at all.

I'll take that as a joke Munsty.

To take a key game what? 6000 miles away from their fans. Stand in their shoes dammit!

If any Celtic club suggested this (even a Pro-12 game) the board would be on fire with outrageous indignation.

Why take it as a joke? It's a legit point.

Portnoys

Did you raise similar objections when Wasps took their LV Cup game with Quins to Dubai last season?

Portnoy wrote:A couple of Irishmen provide qualified support for the Sarries.

I wonder how they'd feel if it were Munster or Leinster or Ulster?

Qualified support? I've made it quite clear I disapprove of what they're doing and i think the 'Cape Town' move shows real contempt for their fans.

Notch wrote:

Portnoy wrote:A couple of Irishmen provide qualified support for the Sarries.

I wonder how they'd feel if it were Munster or Leinster or Ulster?

Qualified support? I've made it quite clear I disapprove of what they're doing and i think the 'Cape Town' move shows real contempt for their fans.

Notch what you wrote was

Notch wrote:Despite my vote I don't have misgivings about the
business plan. I'm sure it all makes sense from a business point of
view.

I have misgivings that they don't value their home fans
enough to play all their significant games... well, at home. Rugby is
more than a business.

Which implies either tacit qualified support or you just voted incorrectly.

A business plan that involves biting the hand that feeds it is stupid.

Wow, these invisibilty tablets really work!

Whose hand feeds them Portnoys?

We get it Portnoy, you dont like sarries...
As mentioned did you get all filled with rage at Wasps when Wasps played in Dubai??

Jeez, where to start...

No, not necessarily. Look at the way football clubs extort their fans, other sports teams across the world.

I think it is stupid to affect and undermine season ticket sales, but if they are confident that they can exceed that revenue from other sources then it makes sense. As a business plan.

That does not mean I support what they are doing, I think it shows a certain level of contempt for their season ticket holders. If an Irish province did likewise I would be spitting nails. I've made that perfectly clear to you.

But listen if you're just looking to get outraged as per usual, then I'm wasting my time. As per usual.

It's only been proposed as an idea. If the Sarries fans
are against it then they can inform the Sarries board to see if they drop the idea. If they don't then they're shady gits.

But do I castigate someone (or a collective) for an idea? No.

One of the great thing about the clubs is that they're semi-independant. It's got nothing to do with you, me, our Irish brethren, or any of the rest of us non-Saracens supporters. If they're happy with this then I'd be disappointed if it got turned down. If they're against it I'd be disappointed if it went ahead.

I know if I was a Sarries fan I'd be pi$$ed. It is the game they are going to want to see most. Biarittz play a great free flowing game and if Sarries decide to actually play some rugby against them then it could be a storming game. Presumabley why the board want to export it to SA as it will sell well and show the SH fans that the NH can provide a fine game of rugby. However, if I was a season ticket holder and this was suddenly not available to me I'd be demanding a refund.

I really disliked the way Sarries laid off large portions of their loyal playing squad when the new owners first came in but their current reliance on young English backs has won me over slightly even if they are currently very boring to watch (hopefully that will change back).

THE Sarries will be playing all their home games at Roath Park Recreational Ground. This years fixtures have just been released and the website will be updated soon
http://www.southrun.co.uk/saracens/

Knackeredknees wrote:We get it Portnoy, you dont like sarries...
As mentioned did you get all filled with rage at Wasps when Wasps played in Dubai??

Dont even get him started on them ... especially in the context of front row replacements

Notch wrote:Jeez, where to start...

No, not necessarily. Look at the way football clubs extort their fans, other sports teams across the world.

I think it is stupid to affect and undermine season ticket sales, but if they are confident that they can exceed that revenue from other sources then it makes sense. As a business plan.

That does not mean I support what they are doing, I think it shows a certain level of contempt for their season ticket holders. If an Irish province did likewise I would be spitting nails. I've made that perfectly clear to you.

But listen if you're just looking to get outraged as per usual, then I'm wasting my time. As per usual.

I don’t fall into any of the options provided. But I agree 100% with this comment.

I don’t have misgivings about the business plan, because it might well work, as a business plan. But as a way of running a sports club I think it’s deplorable.

Biarittz play a great free flowing game

Have you ever watched them play?

Is anyone else slightly worried about this particular game representing NH rugby?

I mean, the ‘saders and the sharks played in London this year, the match was a blinder and it probably generated a lot of interest from NH fans in super rugby (I know that wasn’t the prime objective but it happened). Sarries v Biarritz in Cape Town would be a purely commercial venture on Sarries behalf, but if it’s a poor game then it could reflect poorly on the rest of us.

I thought that the ERC, the RFU and the SARU had no problem (in theory) with Sarries holding the match in Cape Town, now they're just looking at how they will compensate their season ticket holders. If they can give them a fair deal, then I don't have a problem with it.

Regarding the the LV= match - well that's a second side competition. So doesn't equate to the HEC.

I have no objections to the Sarries per se. But I have great objections to the Saffer project though.

As I say it's all smoke and mirrors. 12 (soon to be 13 Saffer players) with a handful (4?) of EQPs.

I remain entirely unconvinced about the motivation.

I hope the ERB kick this proposal as far as a ground kick on the High Velt.

Mick,

I certainly do think that but maybe heading down to Africa during their summer means they'll play some rugby.

Mickado wrote:Is anyone else slightly worried about this particular game representing NH rugby?

I mean, the ‘saders and the sharks played in London this year, the match was a blinder and it probably generated a lot of interest from NH fans in super rugby (I know that wasn’t the prime objective but it happened). Sarries v Biarritz in Cape Town would be a purely commercial venture on Sarries behalf, but if it’s a poor game then it could reflect poorly on the rest of us.

There was a slight earth tremor in Aukland Mickey.

Portnoy wrote: There was a slight earth tremor in Aukland Mickey.

That is way out of order !!!

Portnoy wrote:

Mickado wrote:Is anyone else slightly worried about this particular game representing NH rugby?

I mean, the ‘saders and the sharks played in London this year, the match was a blinder and it probably generated a lot of interest from NH fans in super rugby (I know that wasn’t the prime objective but it happened). Sarries v Biarritz in Cape Town would be a purely commercial venture on Sarries behalf, but if it’s a poor game then it could reflect poorly on the rest of us.

There was a slight earth tremor in Aukland Mickey.

I know. As I said, showcasing SH rugby was not the primary objective of the game, it was a fund raising exercise. But it also was a great opportunity for NH folk to watch super rugby and no doubt it has improved the profile of their game over here.

PenfroPete wrote:

Portnoy wrote: There was a slight earth tremor in Aukland Mickey.

That is way out of order !!!

No it wasn't Pete. The reason for the switch was as a result of a natural disaster. Not cynical commercial opportunism.

Portnoy wrote:Regarding the the LV= match - well that's a second side competition. So doesn't equate to the HEC.

I have no objections to the Sarries per se. But I have great objections to the Saffer project though.

As I say it's all smoke and mirrors. 12 (soon to be 13 Saffer players) with a handful (4?) of EQPs.

I remain entirely unconvinced about the motivation.

I hope the ERB kick this proposal as far as a ground kick on the High Velt.

In the first squad?

well there's Wigglesworth, Farrell (soon to be Hodgson), Barritt, Powell, Strettle, Short, Goode, (Wyles has lived in England since he was 11), Borthwick, Botha, Stevens, Saull. All of those players could argue for being in the starting 15.

with a handful (4?) of EQPs

I'm no Sarries fan but in the final of the AP they did start with Stevens, Borthwick, Botha, Farrell, Barritt, Short and Goode. That's half a team of EQP. Tigers who are well known for supplying players to the national squad started with Chuter, Skivington, Croft, Crane, Youngs, Flood, Allen and Smith. Only one more and the same number coming from the academy (Farrell, Short and Goode for Sarries, Croft, Youngs and Smith for Tigers).

Thunor - not being disrespectful, but it is kind of ironic that you name a list of EQ players at Sarries, but a few of them are (or would be if they hadn't been English Capped) also SA qualified. To be honest I do think that the SA link is obvious, but something of a fuss is being made about it just due to recent success.

Portnoy wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:

Portnoy wrote: There was a slight earth tremor in Aukland Mickey.

That is way out of order !!!

No it wasn't Pete. The reason for the switch was as a result of a natural disaster. Not cynical commercial opportunism.

There was an earthquake in Auckland so they moved the game to London.
Of course there was a commercial reason for the move, but not every commercial reason has to be cynical.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Thunor - not being disrespectful, but it is kind of ironic that you name a list of EQ players at Sarries, but a few of them are (or would be if they hadn't been English Capped) also SA qualified. To be honest I do think that the SA link is obvious, but something of a fuss is being made about it just due to recent success.

So? They're English qualified. Only Botha gained qualification by residency and that was whilst working in office/factory/removing asbestos whilst playing amateur rugby for Bedford Athletic. Of course there's a South African link, they're partley owned by south Africans. But why should it matter that their foreign players generally all come from the same place?

What would bother me is if Saracens became a feeder club for South Africa with young South Africans cutting their teeth in England before gaining a S15 place. That would bother me. The fact the majority of Saracens foreign NEQ players are South African and the majority of their foreign born EQ players are South African doesn't both me in the slightest.

As I've said before it doesn't really matter what most of us think. All that really matters is what the Sarries fans think (and I presume Biarritz must give their permission for this as well).

I am a Saracens fan. Not pleased with this but what can I do? The South African investors and Edward Griffiths will do what they want. Not what is best for the club.

I would be happy with alternatives like another match vs South Africa, a friendly in Capetown vs a Super XV side etc. Not a hugely important HC match though.

To be honest I do think that the SA link is obvious, but something of a fuss is being made about it just due to recent success..

I think the Saffa link is now largely ignorable, there may be a couple of converted Saffas (through parentage and residency) but it's not a major factor in the normal running of things. However, the connection is reinforced by the PR own goals the board keep attempting. Laying off large portions of the first team squad and replacing them with South Africans was unpopular at the time and still rankles with some of the die hard fans. Now the choice to move the most attractive home game of the 2011/12 HEC not only from their home ground (they normally shift to Wembley or Twickers if they can guarentee a crowd for extra cash) but to another country and take away the spectacle from the loyal home support.

Thunor - It wasn't a dig, just an observation. Nationality is one of those things that only the person themselves can really decide upon. Also I agree Biarritz must have given the go ahead fo it too (I assume they will be well compensated for the extra travelling distance).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Thunor - not being disrespectful, but it is kind of ironic that you name a list of EQ players at Sarries, but a few of them are (or would be if they hadn't been English Capped) also SA qualified. To be honest I do think that the SA link is obvious, but something of a fuss is being made about it just due to recent success.

Not from me Scarlet. I have been consistent in my scepticism since the project started.

Let's count the non-SA imports at Watford...

Portnoy wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:

Portnoy wrote: There was a slight earth tremor in Aukland Mickey.

That is way out of order !!!

No it wasn't Pete. The reason for the switch was as a result of a natural disaster. Not cynical commercial opportunism.

Yes I know the reason for the switch. It was NOT "a slight earth tremor in Aukland Mickey" it was after a 6.3-magnitude earthquake hit Christchurch (Christchurch is the home of the Crusaders - http://www.superxv.com/news/super15_rugby_news.asp?id=29525
)which left 181 people DEAD There was also after shocks

22 Feb 2011 12:51 pm 6.3 on the Richter
22 Feb 2011 01:04 pm 5.8
22 Feb 2011 02:50 pm 5.9
22 Feb 2011 02:51 pm 5.1
22 Feb 2011 04:04 pm 5.0
22 Feb 2011 07:43 pm 5.0

This was the second-deadliest natural disaster recorded in New Zealand, within 1000's still homeless

To refer to that as a slight earth tremor WAS way out of order

I'm more concerned that Sarries are paying players through SA bank accounts, are they within the salary cap?????

Who knows?

If you count players signed you will actually find more non south african players have been signed since 2008 and that is without taking into account the guys who came from the academy

Sorry Pete, I was just using a bit of journalistic licence after a reasonable passage of time.

You may recall that I was heavily active on v1 at the time. I still have every sympathy for NZers, Auklanders, the bereaved and the injured.

So If I offended anyone, I'm deeply sorry.