Imaginary scenario...

Through some quirk of fate, you have been granted 15 minutes with the board of the R&A (or, for those of you based in the USA or Mexico, the USGA). In the agenda, you are allowed to raise 2 discussions points and argue your case for both. One point must relate to a specific rule, the othermust be related to any other golfing issue, from the pro game to grass roots.

What points would you raise?

Me? Firstly, on the rules, i think i'd suggests changes to rule 28, "Ball Unplayable". I'd remove the option that allows players a 2 club length drop, leaving them only the option of dropping backwards in a straight line or replaying the last shot. I just think that the 2-club-length drop is too generous and allows players to "get out of jail" a bit too easily for a 1 stroke penalty. And/or i'd suggest that taking an unplayable should incur a 2 stroke penalty, not 1, again because just 1 shot disincentives players from attempting to play a shot from where it lies.

On the wider game, i'd suggest that one of the majors (probably to replace the PGA?) should be held "world-wide" on a rotational basis, to reflect the increasing strength of European/African golf and the fact that the Australasias are now producing major winners and some of the brightest young stars in the modern game.

Thoughts?

1) The grandstand areas which are deemed to be not part of the course, needs a rule change. Sick of seeing players <top pro's> smack it into these areas, and get a free drop from the side of the green. On some courses some players do it on purpose, because its the best route to market. Players should take a penalty drop from where they played it. Players have cleared the grandstands and been in the car park and it's still not OB.

2) I agree about a major being given to another continent, especially Australia, after all the best players in the world compete in these events, and we've seen South Africans and Aussies come over here or to the States and win plenty of times.

Point One:
Lost Ball: I would introduce a concession for amateurs that (with the agreement of the person marking the card in comps) if you whack one into the cabbage you have the option to take an unplayable and drop the ball at the nearest point of relief (as agreed by person marking card) to the point where it went into the sh!te, BUT you count a 2-shot penalty. In my view this would massively speed up the game and also negate the need to take a provisional in many instances.

On the second point; etiquette in the pro game seems to have slipped a bit over the last decade or so; spitting, club abuse, not shouting 'fore' when you've carved one into the croud, these would all be punished by a reprimand in the first instance followed by harsher penalties; i.e. you are temporarily suspended if you are a persistent offender.

Noshankingtonite wrote:
Lost Ball: I would introduce a concession for amateurs that (with the agreement of the person marking the card in comps) if you whack one into the cabbage you have the option to take an unplayable and drop the ball at the nearest point of relief (as agreed by person marking card) to the point where it went into the sh!te, BUT you count a 2-shot penalty. In my view this would massively speed up the game and also negate the need to take a provisional in many instances.

I agree the amateur game needs some thought given to the lost ball situation - but I'm not sure the above is the right answer. In fact I'm not sure what the answer is at all!

In the above scenario a one shot penalty would be too much of a let-off, but a two shot penalty is too much. In fact, assuming the lost ball was from the tee, what you are suggesting is that the player drops his ball in said cabbage and is then playing his FOURTH shot. Surely most players would take the walk of shame back to the tee and hit a THIRD shot from there, in the hope that they wouldn't repeat their first error and then be playing their fourth from a better place.

Provisionals really are the only sensible answer even if they do slow things down

Davie wrote:Provisionals really are the only sensible answer even if they do slow things down

Yes and no. I agree that this is the best option in terms of fairness and adherance to the rules, but of course you can't have amatuers hitting provisionals every time they might be lost or can't see their ball after a tee shot. I'll hit a provisional if it's clearly lost or if it's gone in the deep mire and likely not to be found. Otherwise, my regular playing partners and and i, for bounce games, already employ the system of dropping a ball at the nearest point where we think the ball went, at the cost of 1 stroke. The ball is generally dropped in the rough, but not in a place where it is going to be very difficult to play the next shot. I also employ this rule for my golf society (predominantly high handicappers) even in competition play. I simply can't allow the Society to be responsible for holding up play when we are guests at a course. Yup, it's probably open to corruption, but the Society players are all very honest and we play for fun and small prizes, never for money.

In the above situations, the reasons we use a 1 stroke penalty rather than 2 is to prevent players from using the full 5 minutes to search for a ball. A 1 shot penalty incentives people to have a look for a minute or 2 and then drop without being over penalised. Making it a 2 shot penalty would encourage people to use the full allocation of 5 minutes.

Personally, i've never been a fan of the 5 minute rule, especially for pros. I think 3 minutes is ample. If the average 4 ball should play a hole in around 10-12 minutes, you're losing 1/2 a hole every time someone uses a full 5 minutes to search for a ball, and it's things like that which cause slow play. For pros, i think it is laughable that a player (plus say 30 spectators, as we have seen many time) are allowed 5 minutes to look. Collectively, that's 150 minutes, or 2 1/2 hours, of searching!

theeldestboy wrote: the Society players are all very honest and we play for fun and small prizes, never for money.

Wow, how lucky are you? Have never played in a society where I didn't need to hit the course record to be in the top 3. Even saw a 51 pointer once...

Tricky and interesting one.

I agree with Davie that dropping in the cabbage with a 2 shot penalty is too much, as surely you're better off walking back to the tee and trying to hit one on the fairway for a 2 shot penalty. Worst case scenario with that option = you end up in the cabbage (assuming you don't smash another OOB!), whereas that's the best case scenario if you drop in the rough.

If i'm playing with 'non golf' friends we do similar to Eldest and just drop one if it can't be found with a shot penalty. We only playing against each other so it's fair as the same for all.
However if i'm playing at my club, even in bounce games, we always take provisionals if needed. It doesn't slow play really and i'd say on average i hit maybe 2 provisionals a round tops. I've never had to walk back to the tee from the fairway to hit another.
I don't see a huge problem with this as it is. I think the hold ups are caused when someone has not hit their provisional and then a) spends forever looking as they know they'll have to walk back and then of course b) walks back to the tee

the point I would raise is in relation to Pros not shouting Fore when there ball is obviously heading towards the crowd. its something that is becoming more and more common and it clear that are looking to use the people as a backstop.

the rule I would like to change is relating to balls moving on greens in the wind. maybe putting could be exempt from this rule just like tee shots are?

Don't think i;ve ever won a society day overall first prize as some of the scores that are seen on the board are obscene. One i played last year i'd have had to have shot a gross 59 to get close.

The 2 shot penalty rule is a harsh one and I think the playing of provisionals as MPB says is by far the best way to ensure that once you have had your 5minutes time looking for a lost ball is the best way to prevent any further hold ups. When you consider how long some people take to walk back then go through their routine and then walk back down to their new in play ball and start again thats some hold up

sharrison01 wrote:

theeldestboy wrote: the Society players are all very honest and we play for fun and small prizes, never for money.

Wow, how lucky are you? Have never played in a society where I didn't need to hit the course record to be in the top 3. Even saw a 51 pointer once...

Yes, we are very lucky. I run a really great golf society out here in Dubai, playing weekly around the par 3 course at the Emirates Golf Club and every 4/5 weeks we hold 18 hole competitions. Uniquely, we are able to somewhat accurately guage a players handicap because we have a weekly record of how they socre on the par 3 course. On average, a member will play around 40 times per year, using 1/4 handicap. We cut the top 3 every week by 0.25, and add 0.25 to the bottom 3, so over the years we've come up with a pretty comprehensive set of data and pretty reliable handicaps.

We track the league table and matchplay results - every gross/nett score for every player on every hole - via our fantastic website which was developed for free by one of our members. Have a look at the following link to the results from last week's game, which rather luckily i won, so you get to see a picture of my ugly mug.

http://www.stillonyou.com/eventLeaderboard.aspx?intEventID=101

Sorry, bit off topic...

I don't agree that a one shot penalty isn't a big enough punishment. Why should it be changed to two shots? If I have to take a one shot penalty, that's 20% of my handicap gone. That's plenty big enough punishment for one wayward shot.

Re. provisionals, 5 minute waits and slow play. I don't get it that there's a problem. Assuming you've hit in the cabbage and hit a provisional straight away then if you don't find your first ball more or less immediately and there's a group waiting, just let them through. Why would anyone assume that you can trample around in the rubbish for 5 minutes while there's a group waiting to play???

Re. the OP, I'd definitely agree about having a Major (in place of USPGA?) somewhere else in the World, probably Australia or SA as people have already said. Maybe alternate it each your in Aus or SA.

As for a Rule-related issue, I'd go with removing the penalty if a ball moves on the putting surface without direct influence from oneself, assuming you've definitely addressed it.

I don't get this thing about replacing the PGA (USPGA as it gets called). By all means have an additional major in Aus/SA to fully globalise the game or in the far east where the game's huge. Replacing the PGA just doesn't work for me at all especially considering its been running far longer than the Masters has.

I actually agree with Mav on this one. Whilst the PGA is probably the least glamourous of the 4 majors, I believe it actually has the strongest field? The weakest field is the Masters although it is arguably the most glamourous because of the setting.

So if any major was to be downgraded (not that it would ever happen) it would have to be the Masters. But if we are downgrading the USPGA, can we do it quickly please because it starts next week and I need to know if I'm watching a major or just a bigger than average PGA tour event

one stroke penalty is more than enough

having spent the last few days golfing on gorse infested links the two club rule works just fine too. many occasions going back in line would have meant two hundred yards back on the beach so that makes no sense. no convenient fairway to go back onto!

i'd like to see a change in how starting handicaps are given. the 3cards set up is open to abuse, and will rarely reflect a players ability even when done in good will. something like 12 cards taken from medal rounds with the handicap determined by the average of the best 2 or 3 scores would be more on the money. i'd also like to see the men's hcp limit reduced to 18.

[quote="Doc"]1) The grandstand areas which are deemed to be not part of the course, needs a rule change. Sick of seeing players <top pro's> smack it into these areas, and get a free drop from the side of the green. On some courses some players do it on purpose, because its the best route to market. Players should take a penalty drop from where they played it. Players have cleared the grandstands and been in the car park and it's still not OB.


I agree with Doc on this. Clearly players do it intentionally (Nathan Green twice to beat Goosen at Glen Abbey in 2009), or with careless abandon (all the shots to the right of 18 at Royal St.George's - why shouldn't they have been punished the same way as Badds, Rory and Dustin were penalised on #14. Idiotic.) Agree on penalty also, although it might be logistically tricky.

2).I don't see any Majors changing so I'd demand two things:
a).Make entry into The Masters and US Open more equitable for other (non-PGA) Tours.
b).Demand that at least one other WGC (other than the HSBC Champers which is still not officially recognised by the PGA Tour) event be held outside the USA.

Oops, I've got to figure out how to do quotes . . . . . .

kwinigolfer wrote:Oops, I've got to figure out how to do quotes . . . . . .

Just click on the quote button then delete/edit anything you want between the brackets or go right to the end, put your curser outside the last quote bracket and type whatever you want

limiting the mens hcp to 18 would also help stabalise CSS values!
i think i've only ever played with two men EVER that i dont think would be capable of scoring under 18 ! i play with a lot of 19-24 handicappers who i am convinced would score better if they played off 18.

Ban-Bam, i agree with you that the 3 card thing doesn't correctly respresent a player's handicap, but 12 medal rounds?? So essentially no-one is given a handicap until pretty much a full year after joining?? And therefore can't compete in anything until their 2nd year?
I'm not sure that's going to do much for golf club memberships!. Unless i've misunderstood?

1) Whatever rule relates to ball technology. I would argue for a wind back to a ball that would be equivalent to a 60's ball.

2) In a similar vain I would argue for something to be done about driver technology.

F1 could take technology to a ridiculous level but is constrained by the rules (the formula) from doing this. Just look how great this season has been compared to some other seasons.

I'm not sure what the R&A has to do with deciding what events are majors, and what aren't. I'm sure the R&A wouldn't and couldn't organise an event in Australia.

Two rule changes I'd make -

1. Make the maximum number of clubs 10, instead of 14.
2. Reduce the time that can be spent looking for a ball from 5 minutes to three.

most people who are that keen will play more than 12 rounds a year. i take your point though and would be happy to see my original amended to 9 rounds with hcp determined by average of best 3. it usually takes a handfull of games for a new player to find his feet. we've a youngish guy, about 25ish who has started playing regularly this season who was given 23 to start but is now off 13 after about a dozen comps of which he has won two and finished nrear the top a few times. there's another guy who in the same period was given 18 and is now off 12 having won three times. both these guys would have been given reasonable handicaps under my proposal and would have saved themselves the embarrasment of winning comps by 8 shot margins with junioresque scoring.

I do agree that 3 isn't enough. In honesty for handicaps that are too high and too low. It's just not accurate full stop. I'm not sure the best card thing works either.
When i joined my club i had to play 3 rounds. They were 20 over, 21 over and 16 over. I got given a handicap of 16.
Now i've improved since then but my handicap is currently 16.7 as in the meantime it went up every single medal i played. It's only recently started to come back down.

Even 9 medal cards is still going to take someone at least 6 months i'd say which is probably too long for most who want to get in and playing. I'd say 6 cards signed by a member, not necessarily medal, would give a fair reflection to start on

i think having the cards marked under medal conditions is important as it reflects the conditions that the handicap will be measured. most clubs will have enough comps for a keen new player to play 6-9 rounds in a couple of months. this is a good period of time for said player to settle into the medal way of things before they start competing properly.

True but whilst there might be enough comps to get 9 in in a couple of months (just) I doubt many people would be able to fit that into real life. Some yes but not many. Especially when you're taking about new members so they're unlikely to know anyone, might be shy about showing up for comps for a while etc

ban_bam wrote:limiting the mens hcp to 18 would also help stabalise CSS values!

Not by much. The CSS calculation already discounts category 4 golfers so they are currently calculated on people limited to 20 h/c

As for the rest of the comments, I think h/c cards have to be played in medal conditions anyway - maybe not a medal comp though. Three rounds under medal conditions can be accomplished in 3 weeks or less. Three medal COMPS could take three months

Davie wrote:

Noshankingtonite wrote:
Lost Ball: I would introduce a concession for amateurs that (with the agreement of the person marking the card in comps) if you whack one into the cabbage you have the option to take an unplayable and drop the ball at the nearest point of relief (as agreed by person marking card) to the point where it went into the sh!te, BUT you count a 2-shot penalty. In my view this would massively speed up the game and also negate the need to take a provisional in many instances.

I agree the amateur game needs some thought given to the lost ball situation - but I'm not sure the above is the right answer. In fact I'm not sure what the answer is at all!

In the above scenario a one shot penalty would be too much of a let-off, but a two shot penalty is too much. In fact, assuming the lost ball was from the tee, what you are suggesting is that the player drops his ball in said cabbage and is then playing his FOURTH shot. Surely most players would take the walk of shame back to the tee and hit a THIRD shot from there, in the hope that they wouldn't repeat their first error and then be playing their fourth from a better place.

Provisionals really are the only sensible answer even if they do slow things down

No, what I am advocating is that when you are stood on the tee and you hit one into the bondu, you have the option to either a) hit a provisional b) declare it lost straight away and hit three off the tee or c) NOT play a provisional safe in the knowledge that if you cannot find it, you drop one out in the rough (but in a playable position) no nearer the hole; i.e. at the rough point where it crossed the line from fairway to cabbage and you are now playing your fourth shot from that point. I think the end result will still be the same; you'll end up with double bogey or worse, BUT it will speed the game up and negate 5 minutes of wasted effort looking for a ball in impenetrable rough.

NST, but why would anyone choose to drop in the rough over walking back to the tee if needs be?

In this instance I don't see the 2 shot penalty as being unfair, because a) you will probably have advanced the ball some distance off the tee (albeit crookedly) and b) you are getting to drop a fresh ball down in a playable lie with quite possibly a view of the green. Let's face it, when someone's having a bl00dy mare, even the provisional can go into the cabbage. Having that 2-stroke option would just save time, save them potentially destroying their round and make for a speedier 3 or 4 ball. And let's face it, the pros have all the advantages here; they are far better in the first instance, have an army of people to look for their ball in the second instance and have all the benefits of free drop-outs when they are obstructed by hoardings, camera towers, seating areas and anything else immovable - we get Jack sh1te! If you don't like ending up with option c) then hit your provisional and accept the consequences - simples!

MustPuttBetter wrote:NST, but why would anyone choose to drop in the rough over walking back to the tee if needs be?

MPB - FEAR! Most mid - high handicappers have one or possibly 2 holes that they play okay in bounce games, but come the medal rounds go to peices on. For me it's our par 5 7th. If I had the option; having hit a long wayward drive into the deep gorse on the left or the trees on the right, of just being able to walk up and drop another one in the first cut of rough on the edge of the fairway and hit my fourth shot from there, as opposed to stuffing my provisional off the tee, I'd take it every single time. I've run up cricket scores on that hole

Noshankingtonite wrote:Let's face it, when someone's having a bl00dy mare, even the provisional can go into the cabbage. Having that 2-stroke option would just save time, save them potentially destroying their round and make for a speedier 3 or 4 ball.

As I said earlier, I'm all for making the round quicker, but as for the but I put in bold above, I don't see what you mean.

From what I've seen on the thread so far we are mostly talking about social rounds, bounce games, or stableford competitions. The standard of play being talked about means that in anything other than a medal round, giving up on that hole isn't going to "destroy the round". The person losing the ball either loses the hole (matchplay) or "blobs" the hole (stableford)

If it's a medal then I'm not sure the rules should be tinkered with - medal is mean to be severe. Matchplay or stableford, pick up, put ball in pocket and move on - or if it's a friendly, throw the ball down in the middle of the fairway and play the hole out as practise

How often, if you take a two stroke penalty, are you going to score on the hole anyway?

Davie - severe it might be, but something needs to be done to speed up the game. And I bet a pound to a pinch if you lobby all the people on this forum who have ever complained about slow play (and that's about 90% I would estimate) it will be the monthly or mid-week medal which causes the most angst and it will be losing balls that causes the longest delay. The 2-shot penalty will help speed the game up and will negate the 'walk of shame'. It won't overly affect the handicapping system, because you'll probably throw in a double or treble, but I bet it will speed up the round considerably. I'm not alone in suggesting this either, well-known pros and pundits have suggested this rule change for lower-level amateur competitions.

Fair enough NST
I certainly have holes I tend to struggle on but I don't think I'd ever settle for dropping one in the rough when I have the option of trying to put one on the fairway.
If it's gone so badly that I'm thinking that negatively I suspect the round is already a gonner!

Yes it would save time but that's the last thing I'm thinking about in the midst of a ropey medal round

MPB - fair enough, when I'm having a mare I just want to get the hole out of the way and refocus. I'm always conscious of my playing partners and those people playing in following groups. Any way which just helps me negate undue delay and loss of concentration for those around me has got to be beneficial - just cos I'm having a bad round doesn't mean my playing partners should suffer with me. If you're going to play cack at least find a way to play cack quickly and efficiently is what I am advocating

I'm all for speeding the game up - but not at the risk of destroying the integrity of a medal round (some would say the purest form of the game)

If it's not a medal, then fine. Pick the ball up, lose the hole, record a "blob", even throw one down on the fairway and get your money's worth.

But what you are suggesting seems to be as follows....

Hit a ball into deep rough so it can't be found. Throw one down into the rough which will almost certainly not be in a position as bad as the original ball would be if it could be found, and add two shots. By dropping the ball in a place like that you are almost certainly giving yourself a chance of still getting to the green (assuming an average par 4) and two putts or a chip and a putt you could still walk off with a 6

It sounds a nice game but it's not golf.

If you were suggesting that your partners, in a particularly sadistic mood, could choose which particular clump of foot-high rough you were forced to drop into then I could (almost) agree with you - but whenever you've played a game under these strange "rules" how often have you seen someone drop into an unfavourable position?

Fair enough NST.
I'm not advocating taking undue time. As I said I'll always play a prov if unsure and have never needed to go back to a tee. I tend to think the quickest way to play is to take as few shots as possible and that means never accepting it's a cack round

sharrison01 wrote:

theeldestboy wrote: the Society players are all very honest and we play for fun and small prizes, never for money.

Wow, how lucky are you? Have never played in a society where I didn't need to hit the course record to be in the top 3. Even saw a 51 pointer once...

I'll see your 51 and raise you a 52.

It was the only time I've missed a work golf society event in the 4 years I've been there. The Korean COO, who two months earlier in the work magazine when asked about his interests said he used to play off 10 but hadn't had the opportunity to play much in previous years, was given/demanded a handicap of 28.

There is absolutely no way I could have bit my lip if I'd been there.

I'm now the golf society secretary and even new players who I'm 99% sure are complete bobbins now get a starting handicap of 22.

Davie: I've never trialled this and I don't think the R & A would go for it - not for one minute, but (in keeping with the OP's topic) it's something I would put to the R & A and I'll bet I wouldn't be the first person who has suggested it either and I don't think it's an option a lot of people would go for. Most people will take the provo in the belief (well-founded or not) that the second tee shot will be a belter.

MPB: I always try my best and wouldn't consider myself to be a defeatist, but there are some holes when no matter what you try, it just isn't going to be your day.

Davie wrote:

ban_bam wrote:limiting the mens hcp to 18 would also help stabalise CSS values!

Not by much. The CSS calculation already discounts category 4 golfers so they are currently calculated on people limited to 20 h/c

As for the rest of the comments, I think h/c cards have to be played in medal conditions anyway - maybe not a medal comp though. Three rounds under medal conditions can be accomplished in 3 weeks or less. Three medal COMPS could take three months

aye but davie under my plans all those cat 4s would become cat 3s ergo their scores would be taken into the calc!
as far as i'm aware the process of obtaining a hcp 'can' be quite relaxed depending on how strict the club is. some clubs will let you go out with mates to get your three cards. doesnt really give the commitee a fair assessment of the players ability though.
as far as comps are concerned. its very much down to how regularly a club holds medals and obviously how many you are able/ want to play in. you say fitting 3 in 3 months might be tough ... i'd guess the average keen club golfer will play around 3 a month if not more. heck i'm playing 4 this week!!

meant to say 2-3 a month, but can't seem to edit it
hey ho