Chris Ashton - sleeping star or passenger?

A question for all those England fans. Ashton has now had two very quiet games on the trot. Is he in a slump? He has hardly touched the ball in 160 mins of rugby but worryingly his first up tackling seems to be very weak especially from someone brought up on RL. Is it time to bench him?

If I was making the call I'd be very tempted to give someone else a go on the wing.

He ironically hasn't scored a try since his swansong(dive) game against Italy and seems to be getting slightly worse by the game. I'd say bench or rest him, giving an underachieving player a free place isn't healthy for any side. My philosophy is to send the message "Give us your best or you're out".

Ashton to me is not a naturally creative player but is is a very good supporting player.
He has not had much to support recently.

No disrespect to Georgia or Romania but those games will be good to give players form and fitness for the bigger challenges ahead.

He should've been up supporting Foden when he made the break yesterday.

This is ridculous.

He hasnt touched the ball so hes rubbish? You might want to look at the centers outside him and the lack of offloads form the forwards giving him anything to feed off when he is shaodwing play.
Unlike Foden and Ashton he doesnt have the luxury of standing at the back waiting for loose kicks to run back.

The facts are that Ashton has been almost awol now for 2 games. I remember when a lot of Tait supporters always blamed every other player for his poor contributions. Tait eventually got found out at test level. I just hope Ashton doesn't go the same way.

So much for him re-defining wing play then.

Shane Williams am byth. WORD!

In a game that was characterised by inneffective contributions from just about everyone there was nothing for him to feed off. He's a support runner, an opportunist with nothing to run on to. There was nothing coming from the centres, very few line breaks. When Foden broke he didn't look to both sides before choosing the impossible pass to Armitage. If he had he would have seen Wilkinson in a better position and Ashton just outside him both screaming to get his attention. The whole display was disjointed and lacking any kind of flow. You can't judge an individual performance in that context. If we start stringing some moves together I'd back Ashton to be on hand to finish things off. At least, that's what I'll be praying for.

How many of his tries came from supporting line breaks by Flood. I think we missed Flood more

Is it possible that the New All Blacks game plan was to take the Argentinians on up front, Kick for territory, when the penalties come score points in instalments of three.via Wilkinson.
And leave the wings to freeze

englandglory4ever wrote:The facts are that Ashton has been almost awol now for 2 games. I remember when a lot of Tait supporters always blamed every other player for his poor contributions. Tait eventually got found out at test level. I just hope Ashton doesn't go the same way.

The difference being that Tait never looked convioncing and rarelky had good games, whereas Ashton has been very good in the majority of games hes played.
Now sides are reacting to that and shutting him down by contesting teh ball as much as possible England arent able to release their back 3. Without Youngs and Flood they dont have much of an attacking threat beyond them. Its now up to Johson and England to find a way to get them into the game, or bulldozer over tries form the forwards that force sides to open up against them. Tuilagi, Ashton, Armitage, Foden is a potentialy very axciteing combination of runners but they barely got a sniff of the ball..most of it coming form returning kicks which isnt Ashtons job ( hardly suprising when you have 2 fullbacks in the side)
He hasnt been helped by the butterfingers and lack of offloading from the England players when they do get the ball out of the ruck, you cant support nothing.
Johnson doenst want England being over conservative in their gameplan, but its hard not to be when teh scores are tight, you fly half cant run or passs ( or kick in this case) , your on your third choice scrum half, your centers and forwards have forgotten how to hold a ball, and the opposition is intent on stopping you playing (no complaints about that its what England always used to do to Australia)

Its a total overeaction to say he should be dropped. As much as anything who the heck is going to come in for him, Banahan?

unfair question.

He hasn't really had a chance to lay down his marker yet.

Plus he had a slight injury during the warm ups, having twisted and turned my ankles plenty of times its a hard think to come back from quickly especially given his key skills are pace and direction change.

Ashton's (and Foden's) problem is that the England coaches seem to think that merely picking an attacking player gives you an attacking side. Worryingly (and I suspect Tuilagi may be next), the more a player is exposed to this England coaching set-up, the worse that player becomes. They seem to have coached Ashton's attacking instincts out of him. Rather than tracking the ball these days, he seems to hug his wing a lot more. Obviously that's a better defensive shape, but you may as well pick Robshaw on the wing if that's your game plan.

England were doing all the right things a year ago. Playing off the cuff and with quick ball. That enabled spontaeous players like Ashton and Foden to cause havoc, and defenses struggled to cope.

It seems that MJ wants England to keep it slow and tight, give nothing away. If that's the plan, then Ashton is hardly going to ignite matters out of the wing on his own.

FEX...you seem to be under the impression that that was the game England wante dto play, it wasnt.

What the opposition learnt from seeing England dispatch Austrlai was that you cant afford to let them play the way they want to. South Africa showed that by hammering their forwards and contesting everything you can stop them ...the same way England traditionaly played against the flashy sides (Aus 2007 a prime example). Ireland did the same, and destroyed England by defending agressivly ...unlike Argentina they backed it up with some good attacking play of their won.

England want to release their back 3, at the moment they are being frutsrated becasue they cant get the ball to them. You can only do that by setting a platform, and the opposition have been able to bully them off doing that...and the odd occassions they got clean ball out the butterfingers struck.
Simply chucking the ball down the line on first phase makes it easy for the opposition to win turnovers.

Youngs and Flood as they were a year ago are missed as part of that too, but Flood was woefully off form and Youngs short of sharpness and training time.

Rather than tracking the ball these days, he seems to hug his wing a lot more. Obviously that's a better defensive shape

then surely this is the defence coaches remit?

either way, Jonno needs to clear out some dead wood after the RWC

Funnyscot. I fear you have hit the nail on the head. Probably the back 3 are out there doing the defensive thing only, because that's what they've been told to do. MJ and his coaches are heading for a fall playing so conservatively as they are condemning every England match to be a tight 3 pointer.

I still think Ashton looks like a weak tackler though. That could bite us in the arras.

Sorry but I have to disagree. Look at the amount of ball England kick back compared to what they used to. If they were purley defesive negative rugby focussed theyd be tacticaly kicking for territory, the back 3 kicked 5 times between them all game.

You think England looked at the wins against Australia and said "right guys we need to stop playing like that" then looked at the losses to SA and Ireland and decided that was the way forward? Ridiculous.

Johnson has always talked about wanting his back three to be creative and looking for ways to get them into the game. The problems been that they have relied on winning teh forwards battle to do this, and been found lacking. Theres aslo an ongoing problem with centers who cant pass and arent allowed to. Id say they miss an on form Hape too, he does have the ability to make things happen in tight play by making spaces.

Till basic skills are executed properly though England will always be under pressure, it doesnt matter what tactics you are trying to use if your palyers cant pass catch or kick.

Sorry biscuit but I disagree. MJ approaches RWC rugby in a totally different way. He only ever talks about the 'win'. Be it by 1 point or 10 he doesn't care. Winning is everything and he knows like many other coaches that defence wins tight games. There is a sea change in the way England are playing and its just about defending like mad and squeezing a penalty kick whenever the opportunity arises. Ashton's skillset isn't really needed with this style of play. Wilkos is needed but it went horribly wrong against the Argies because he kept missing.

Well you are welcome to your opinion but its usually best to listen to mine and copy it then youll be right more often

Its really silly to say that England deliberatly avoiding releasing Ashton.

I think MJ would prefer a big win over a smaller one simply because you're less likely to lose if you're 10/20 points ahead.

And you dont gift a bonus point to opposition, and avoid getting one for yourself.

The problem is if the scores are very tight and the oppoosition isnt giving you time and space to play you get sucked into plan B.

England want their back 3 in the game, they are struggling to do it. Its not the fault of those players, its the forwards half backs and centers who are no longer executing well enough and the opposition having found a counter to Englands game.

Ashton has never been a strong tackler....and im not concerned as long as he is not a turnstyle.

Ashton again is not about creating things - ala Shane or Campese etc. He is about supporting play and running good lines.

However there wasnt much play to support on Saturday. Lets see how they perform against the weaker sides. IF they dont perform in those games, then ill start being concerned.

I dont think people give Argentina enough credit. They are a GOOD side. Imagine after they join the 3n, and play regularly against the big boys, they'll be a tough side to beat.

After watching how much Oz struggled against Italy and other teams have struggled so far this is pretty much par for the course.

These are the first games of the WC and i think all of the weaker teams are goig to be going out to make a point. It'll be interesting to see how Argentina go from here, will they play with as much passion against Scotland or is this their peak?

Ture Yapp, as we all know all sides raise tehir game against England

Regarding Ashton, he's an excellant supporting runner.

Youngs and Flood at halfback make a great difference to his game. The last time they played well together Ashton scored 4 tries. Sort of says it all.

Playing with a Wigglesworth/Wilkinson combo won't exactly have Ashton licking his lips.

Cut him some slack!
He hardly saw the ball.
Gotta give him 2-3 games.

He should play in both the Georgia and Romania games. England need to get their backs moves and tempo going, and build some confidence in the backs. Both Ashton and Foden are confidence players.

One change I'd be tempted to make is to put Armitage to 15 and Foden to the wing, I think that would work better than the current arrangement.

I'd stick with Ashton personally. He's a top finisher, and that's beyond dispute.

"Its really silly to say that England deliberatly avoiding releasing Ashton."

I'm not saying that am I! What I am saying is that England have taken to a much more defensive 'play it safe' type of game plan which will severely limit Ashton and the other back 3 players.

You need to bow to your betters sometimes mate. Otherwise you look very silly.

englandglory4ever wrote:"Its really silly to say that England deliberatly avoiding releasing Ashton."

I'm not saying that am I! What I am saying is that England have taken to a much more defensive 'play it safe' type of game plan which will severely limit Ashton and the other back 3 players.

You need to bow to your betters sometimes mate. Otherwise you look very silly.

And he should be dropped because they are up against sides that arent letting them play?

I still assert that its much more a case of England being forced off the game they want to play by a mixture of poor execution and opposition tactics than a concious edffort to be less expansive. Id also suggest that on one hand saying that EWngland are deliberatly playing conservativley and not releasing the back 3 but that they arent activly keeping the ball away form their back 3 is contadictory, and still no reason to slate Ashton even if they were.
Again, if they were playing a conservative gameplan why pick Armitage and Tuilagi ahead of Banahan and Hape, and why do the back 3 look to run before kicking?

This group Scotland aside,is full of teams that can play negative Rugby and want to drag you down to there level.Rumania at forward level at least,are coached by a top notch former All Black forward.
Georgia are physical to,they won`t win or go for the pretty stuff but will seek to strangle you.
The backline starts at scrum half,there was precious little creativity shown
by England was there?for all his qualities.JW isn`t the man to set the world alight with his distribution.
If the ball does`nt get to the wing how can he score,do as Shane Williams did v South Africa.
Take the ball into a pack of forwards,get pinned at the bottom of a pileup?
What Wales especially in the last quarter desperately needed,was quick service from there forwards.Then set the backs running,England at last realised that.
Coaching has tended to stop players thinking,and chamging tactics on the fly.Good teams won`t wait till half time for a shellacking from the coaches to do something.They will act,near the end of the game England did just that,wales did`nt.
Which is why England is plus one,Wales minus one.BUT neither team need worry just play one game at a time.

I'm not saying 'he should be dropped' am I? Once again you add 2 + 2 and make 5. Take a chill pill mate.

IMO he has not been so effective of late and suggested that another might do better. I was just throwing it out there to see what England fans thought. Having said that I would be very tempted but I'm happy to see him start again for now.

I do agree however, that England were forced off their game to some extent by the Pumas but mainly due to their own poor interpretation of the laws as reffed by Lawrence. Something that should be fairly easy to fix in a week.

He has Bern found out a little. He relys on being in the right place at the right time and then turning on the gas. Now that teams know what he can do it is easy enough to defend.

englandglory4ever wrote:I'm not saying 'he should be dropped' am I? Once again you add 2 + 2 and make 5. Take a chill pill mate.

englandglory4ever wrote:If I was making the call I'd be very tempted to give someone else a go on the wing.

He is still, without a doubt, the number one finisher in the england squad and one of the best in Europe. If there's a try scoring opportunity with one man to beat I'd want Ashton to be there every time.

leinsterbaby wrote:He has Bern found out a little. He relys on being in the right place at the right time and then turning on the gas. Now that teams know what he can do it is easy enough to defend.

I think it's more a case that there are very few 'right places' for England at the moment. EDIT: possibly because teams are tackling/marking English players differently

rugbyfan wrote:He is still, without a doubt, the number one finisher in the england squad and one of the best in Europe. If there's a try scoring opportunity with one man to beat I'd want Ashton to be there every time.

Ashton is not the player to beat a man, I'd say Foden is a better option.

HammerofThunor wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:He has Bern found out a little. He relys on being in the right place at the right time and then turning on the gas. Now that teams know what he can do it is easy enough to defend.

I think it's more a case that there are very few 'right places' for England at the moment.

Nope there are but you need Youngs and flood to create them. Wilko ain't gonna do it.

Leinster, I agree with you 100%. I was just about to make that point.

Ashton looked good when Flood was running an expansive back line and Flutey was acting as a link man.

The current backline isn't providing the same fluency, and he's suffering as a result.

It really doesn't matter who you have on the wing in that case.

Comfort wrote:
Youngs and Flood at halfback make a great difference to his game. The last time they played well together Ashton scored 4 tries. Sort of says it all.

Playing with a Wigglesworth/Wilkinson combo won't exactly have Ashton licking his lips.

Lack of midfield breaks? Lack of any breaks really? He's being forced into defending/chasing and tackling for the most part, probably the 3 parts of his game that werent the basis for his inclusion in the team. I'd place Strettle on the wing with Ashton on the bench if this happens for the next game or 2. Strettle can beat players all over the place. Ashton shines against the "weaker" teams to an extent as theres more chance to support breaks - which is one of the parts of his game he was included in the squad for.

And yes, i just quoted myself.

EnglishReign wrote:He should've been up supporting Foden when he made the break yesterday.

He was. He and Wilkinson were on Foden's right, but Foden only saw left, and Armitage.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Leinster, I agree with you 100%. I was just about to make that point.

Ashton looked good when Flood was running an expansive back line and Flutey was acting as a link man.

The current backline isn't providing the same fluency, and he's suffering as a result.

It really doesn't matter who you have on the wing in that case.

I think someone has hacked into ghosts Ac. Can someone please inform the moderators. Just kidding, nice we agree on something.

Armchairexpert wrote:How many of his tries came from supporting line breaks by Flood. I think we missed Flood more

A couple against Italy.

bathmad wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:He should've been up supporting Foden when he made the break yesterday.

He was. He and Wilkinson were on Foden's right, but Foden only saw left, and Armitage.

Where was Banahan? He is going to need a big game v romania to scoop top try scorer.

leinsterbaby wrote:

bathmad wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:He should've been up supporting Foden when he made the break yesterday.

He was. He and Wilkinson were on Foden's right, but Foden only saw left, and Armitage.

Where was Banahan? He is going to need a big game v romania to scoop top try scorer.

Trouble is Flood was dropped for not being that Flood anymore. At that point England were missing Wilko.
Its a pity Moody is out because it means Tindall is garaunteed the captains armband so no space for the New Zealander at 12 ( it was Hape not Flutey that played when Ashton was effective)

Yep, good point. Of course it was Hape. You'll have to forgive me, but I often forget exactly which New Zealander is propping up your mid-field from game to game.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Yep, good point. Of course it was Hape. You'll have to forgive me, but I often forget exactly which New Zealander is propping up your mid-field from game to game.

Samoan currently

Sleeping passenger?

Christian Wade will be straight in after the RWC!