Just one change for England

First topic message reminder :


I am loath to criticise MJ as he knows far more about what it takes to succeed in international rugby than I do, and unless the likes of Ian McGeechan lurk on here he knows more than you as well.

BUT

It seems he has decided that only making the enforced change of Cueto in for Armitage is the best way to beat France. This palpably ignores clear evidence that the 8/9/10 axis is not working.

Wilkinson plays too deep and offers very little communication to his half back partner, made worse by moving deeper without warning. This has caused Youngs (who is still inexperienced) all sorts of problems, compunded by Haskell's inexperience at No8 and failure to contol the ball at scrums.

If Youngs plays surely he should be partnered by Flood, and if Wilko plays he woudl go better with Wigglesworth?

I'm with beshocked on this about Wigglesworth. Thought he was very good when he came on, people forget that the situation that England scored from was exactly the same as when Wilko went for a terrible drop goal attempt. Wigglesworth does what a scrum half should, he gets to the breakdown quickly and then gets the ball out straight away. It was this decision making and execution that lead to englands try, if he hadn't got the ball out when he did the pass to Ashton would never have been on.

In terms of who should start I would go for Wigglesworth and Flood/Wilko. My basis for this is that WIlko doesn't have 2 bad games in a row for England and I feel that someone would have had a chat with him about the constant attempts at kicking 3 points regardless of the situation. Flood would do fine with Wigglesworth at 9 and I think it would actually help him a little with game management which isn't Floods strongest area. Wiggles also has a good flat fast pass and gets the ball out quickly. Considering that Youngs had such a good impact when he came on late against Argentina would it be so bad to use him as an impact sub when there are more gaps around the fringes?

aitchw wrote:MJ's selection has always worried me but then he put Foden, Ashton, Youngs and Flood in and I started to believe. Now he's just looking confused and I'm worried again. Why can't managers see the glaringly obvious. He won't get the best out of Youngs if Flood isn't playing off him. He's only a decent centre pairing away from a very, very good back set up. We are too far in to be still not settled. Crazy!

Some of the posts on this thread like the one above really contradict many of the English opinions on other threads. The front row seems settled but with little back up. The second seems ok, good players, a bit of depth too. Backrow is contentious as is the halfbacks and centers. Back three look great, shame about Armitage's silly tackle.

Exactly, he wants to get some cosmetic surgery on that, or people will continue to mock him in the changing sheds.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Exactly, he wants to get some cosmetic surgery on that, or people will continue to mock him in the changing sheds.

Your wasted on these boards mate... Try the comedy club in Piccadilly.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Exactly, he wants to get some cosmetic surgery on that, or people will continue to mock him in the changing sheds.

No wonder he doesnt want to wee infront of people

My basis for this is that WIlko doesn't have 2 bad games in a row for England

Well he hasn't had a good one so far this RWC.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

My basis for this is that WIlko doesn't have 2 bad games in a row for England

Well he hasn't had a good one so far this RWC.

he was ok against romania

tomathy wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

My basis for this is that WIlko doesn't have 2 bad games in a row for England

Well he hasn't had a good one so far this RWC.

he was ok against romania

Sorry but that is an outrageuos claim, he went several years without one.

This has already been well covered here but felt compelled to join in. I absolutely agree that a Flood youngs combo is best/better, although my opinion of Youngs is about as low as it has ever been. Im not sure that he can become the "best scum half ever", he doesnt have the raw talent and currently his game is appalling! His passing is up there with the worst I have ever witnessed and doesn't show signs of letting up. Poor Danny Care (a player with so much more hustle) has to watch from the studio as 50% of Youngs slllooooowwww ball delivery passes arrive high and behind the player, often at head height, thus disrupting the back line even further. Sure he isnt getting good ball from the back row but he is not hustling for it either. He is barking orders and slowing our attack nearly EVERY time. He is pivotal to releasing our biggest weapons out wide but cant do the job. He's got to go!!!

Which is quite ironic since he was bought into the side because Care was doing exactly that.

What is it about England and destroying promising young scrum halves?
Or was that just one game and we have to assume he can work back to producing his form form a year ago?

Doesn't matter hwo Youngs has outside him, he still takes too long behind the ruck,maul or scrum to pass, to the OSH

JDandfries wrote:Doesn't matter hwo Youngs has outside him, he still takes too long behind the ruck,maul or scrum to pass, to the OSH

Previously he was credited with speeding up Englands game, and known for getting the ball out quickly to the backs rather than doing the Care Crab
When he was playing alongside Flood.

He also has never had this problem at club level. Alongside Flood.

I think there is a strong coincedental argument that playing alongside Flood is better for Youngs.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler I agree that England monsters our scrum halves and we are currently not exactly spoilt for choice but Youngs is killing us.. Against the french, who in my option seem to breed decent number 8s from a farm in central france somewhere, a player like harinordoquy will butcher the first contact made on 10/12 due to a lame/high/slow pass from mr Youngs and then the bench will be warming up...

Pair him with Flood if anything MJ!

Astonal,

I think that was the general feeling amongst posters here. Either wiggles and wilko or youngs and Flood ( which were the combinations they seemed to be developing pre cup), not some malfunctioning hybrid.
He needs to be better, and he can be.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:He needs to be better, and he can be.

hear hear to that and I wish him and the team the best this coming saturday (my wife is french, kind of adds to the tension ahha). As we know both flood and Wilko are together, but when will we know who is 10 and who is 12 please? (or have i missed this)

Floods been training at 12 and Johnson spoke about the reasons he was selected ahewad of Tindall, the assumption is its him at 12. The question over goal kicking is open. On defence they may interchange.

Flood is a natural attacking FH, he stands flat and looks to break the gainline, usually at pace on the end of a fizzing pass from youngs. They are a natural combo that instinctively know where each other are on the pitch.

JW stands so fecking deep he spends most of the time chatting with Foden and his natural instinct is to kick at every opportunity! OK... I am not being fair on Johnny but starting him at 10 makes no sense.

It should be TF at 10, Wilko at 12.

Not bothered at all that Mike Tindall is not starting. We dont need 2 crash experts in the centres and Manu is better in every measure, in that respect.

Toby Flood feeding Manu with some good quality ball on the angles could be devestating against the French, or anyone in general, my worry is that Johnny will have punted the ball before they ever get chance to show what they can do.

Other changes....

Easter in for the Brand... Easter is better at controlling the ball at the breakdown & scrum time giving Youngs cleaner ball to work with. However, Haskell is by far the better ball carrier & scrapper at the breakdown. Hard call this one.

Palmer in... Lawes on the Bench. Palmer has impressed and played well so should start.

he was ok against romania

A weakened Romanian team and he did ok and his goal kicking was still dodgey. Hardly vintage Wilkinson is it, at the last two RWCs he was the pillar of reliability and the solid foundation that held the midfield together. Flood played better against Georgia which was a tougher game and he has been kicking better.

Doesn't matter hwo Youngs has outside him, he still takes too long behind the ruck,maul or scrum to pass, to the OSH.

That's dribble, Youngs has made his reputation of pushing a fast tempo. Even minus protection he was trying to get the game going vs the Scots. He failed miserabley but he was trying. As I said above, there's no point playing an attacking scrummie with a 10 that wants to stand 15m behind the gainline.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Doesn't matter hwo Youngs has outside him, he still takes too long behind the ruck,maul or scrum to pass, to the OSH.

That's dribble, Youngs has made his reputation of pushing a fast tempo. Even minus protection he was trying to get the game going vs the Scots. He failed miserabley but he was trying. As I said above, there's no point playing an attacking scrummie with a 10 that wants to stand 15m behind the gainline.

Im not sure I agree on the fast tempo comment. I didnt see any tempo against the Scots anyway, just slow ball and miss passing from Mr Youngs. We cant raise Romania in this as that was a cake walk for a team like England. I will add however that he was gettting unclean ball from the back row though, but still that doesn't excuse terrible passing.

formerly known as Sam wrote:That's dribble, Youngs has made his reputation of pushing a fast tempo. Even minus protection he was trying to get the game going vs the Scots. He failed miserabley but he was trying. As I said above, there's no point playing an attacking scrummie with a 10 that wants to stand 15m behind the gainline.

He made his reputation off it yes, but since the Italy game in the Six Nations he's struggled more and more to do it, whether with Flood or Wilkinson.

Well, it's not ideal to start playing a distributor at 12 this late in the day, but credit to the management for identifying that change was necessary. Youngs is lucky to keep his place and if Care had been fit I think he'd be first choice by now. Let's hope Youngs can find some form.

In many ways the most interesting thing about this selection is that it appears to mark the end of Hape's international career. Presumably in the 6 Nations Flood will be back to FH (unless someone like Hodgson makes a strong enough case to take his place) and either Barritt or Twelvetrees will be 12.

Also by the 6 Nations I'd expect changes in the backrow, with some of the exciting young players impressing in the AP coming in.

So, by next March England might be quite good..........