Wales have a lot to thank Martyn Williams for

It's just a theory but I believe that Sam Warburton would not be anywhere near as good as he is had he not been at the blues with Martyn Williams. He does all the same things as Martyn but he plays like Martyn on a permanent good day.

So thanks Mr Williams

Martyn Williams = Legend

mckay1402 wrote:It's just a theory but I believe that Sam Warburton would not be anywhere near as good as he is had he not been at the blues with Martyn Williams. He does all the same things as Martyn but he plays like Martyn on a permanent good day.

So thanks Mr Williams

I believe that once fit he will be picked v Baa Baas for his century.

I hope so he's been a great player for Wales and if his teaching of Warburton is anything to go by we should get him in to coach the forwards with Mcbryde.

mckay1402 wrote:I hope so he's been a great player for Wales and if his teaching of Warburton is anything to go by we should get him in to coach the forwards with Mcbryde.

Great idea

mckay1402 wrote:It's just a theory but I believe that Sam Warburton would not be anywhere near as good as he is had he not been at the blues with Martyn Williams. He does all the same things as Martyn but he plays like Martyn on a permanent good day.

So thanks Mr Williams

Completely agree - nobody better to learn from, add in Warburtons youth and physicality to Martyns proffessionalism, intellegence and ability and you have all the perfect attributes of a modern 7 - Sam Warburton.

I hope Martyn does get his 100th cap, either against Aus in November or in the 6N.

Players have massive respect for Martyn, I'm sure hed make a great coach

wales606 wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:It's just a theory but I believe that Sam Warburton would not be anywhere near as good as he is had he not been at the blues with Martyn Williams. He does all the same things as Martyn but he plays like Martyn on a permanent good day.

So thanks Mr Williams

Completely agree - nobody better to learn from, add in Warburtons youth and physicality to Martyns proffessionalism, intellegence and ability and you have all the perfect attributes of a modern 7 - Sam Warburton.

I hope Martyn does get his 100th cap, either against Aus in November or in the 6N.

Rubbish. Martyn Williams is not in the same class, he was just the only choice we had. Much more of a back playing in the forwards. Sam is an incredible athlete and Martyn was never that.

Come to think of it why wasn't Martyn more physical ? A full time athlete should have no excuse not to be in awesome shape - what do they do all day ?? I have a full time office job and would still feel confident of beasting Martyn in the gym.

Oxford Welsh wrote:Come to think of it why wasn't Martyn more physical ? A full time athlete should have no excuse not to be in awesome shape - what do they do all day ?? I have a full time office job and would still feel confident of beasting Martyn in the gym.

? So you are as fit and strong as an international class openside flanker?!

Ridiculous statement. Proof of England's back five in the pack that size means nothing in relation to rugby ability. Martyn was never one who relied on his physicality, because he wasn't big, and his brain was what made him an outstanding player. If he had been 6'3 and 16 stone, yes, maybe he would have been able to compete with the McCaws of this world that Sam will, hopefully, one day be able to do. But he was still a world class player in an era when Wales had very little class.

I'm disappointed he didn't go. Thought he deserved a squad place as an old head, and a start against Namibia, to bind the young squad as much as anything. As it is, he hasn't been needed; they've shown maturity, and the likes of Huw Bennett, SJ and Ryan have clearly been doing that job, along with Sam, the ultimate professional. He does owe MW a lot, but he is a player in his own right. Be thankful we have aworld class replacement for our former world class 7; for a while it looked as if he were irreplaceable.

Miaow,
Great comments. I absolutely agree.

Martyn wasn't selected because he is getting slower and is a bit long in the tooth. Gatland felt he simply had better options at this stage. And, so far, at least, that thinking has bourne fruit.

On the other hand, he has been a great player for Wales, and a great representative of Rugby. I was at Twickenham when he played so well for Barbarians. And the crowd, mostly English, cheered for him as loudly as for anyone. That showed how well respected he is.

Standulstermen wrote:Martyn Williams = Legend

+ 1

I'd love to see all the oldies given a chance to say goodbye to the Welsh fans in Cardiff on December the 3rd.
We've had a great World Cup and it would be fantastic to thank them all for years of service.

Martyn Williams, Stephen Jones, Shane Williams it would be great to see them all come off the bench for the last 10 minutes to a standing ovation from the Welsh fans.
That Australia game looks like a master stoke to be honest because Wales will be buzzing now after the World Cup regardless of what happens.

Gatts wrote:

Oxford Welsh wrote:Come to think of it why wasn't Martyn more physical ? A full time athlete should have no excuse not to be in awesome shape - what do they do all day ?? I have a full time office job and would still feel confident of beasting Martyn in the gym.

? So you are as fit and strong as an international class openside flanker?!

No - and thats my point. I am however probably stronger than Martyn Williams. He's a blast from the Amateur past....

Can we have a 606v2 internet bench press competition please?

I agree with the general gist of this thread, and it shows the importance of experience in bringing younger players through. It's the reason why Leicester, Munster and Toulouse have remained such strong clubs. The coaches have it easy, because they have wise old veterans out there bringing through the younger players on the training pitch.

Martyn Williams was a superb flanker, and as Miaow quite rightly says, it was the top two inches that made him a stand-out player. Physically he was nothing special at all, but he had that knack of being in the right place at the right time, and he had great hands for a forward, allowing him to play that link man role to distinction. I've no doubt that Warburton having to take the jersey off Williams drove Warburton to be a better player.

As for comparisons, Warburton should now go on to be a better player than Williams in my view, given his physical attributes and leadership qualities. But hopefully from a Welsh perspective Williams will also have taught him that the right decision is often not to hit a particular ruck or compete for a particular ball, and the great flankers pick their battles. That's certainly what makes McCaw such an awesome force.

Martyn Williams was a fantastic openside. He was an incredibly smart and intelligent footballer and had great footballing skills. However he wasn't a great athlete by modern standards and clearly over the past 18 months he'd lost a yard of pace and the strength and fitness to compete with the best sides. He was always punching above his weight physically but his brains and technique kept him one step ahead of his bigger and stronger rivals.

Warburton seems to have the total package. He has the brain and instinct of a top openside but he's also an incredible athlete; fit, fast and powerful. As the icing on the cake he is a great captain as well and inpires the players around him.

As I've said elsewhere Warburton is probably the best player I've seen in the NH since O'Driscoll. He just seems to have an aura about him. I'd be very suprpised if he doesn't captain at least one Lions tour. He's a phenomenal talent and if he gets better then we're all fecked.

mckay1402 wrote:It's just a theory but I believe that Sam Warburton would not be anywhere near as good as he is had he not been at the blues with Martyn Williams. He does all the same things as Martyn but he plays like Martyn on a permanent good day.

So thanks Mr Williams

Completely disagree, I couldn't disagree more. Sam's progress and emergence as a open-side to be reckoned with has absolutey nothing to do with Martyn. The players are nothing alike.

I do however, think Justin Tipuric is very similar to Martyn Williams.

Morgannwg wrote:Sam's progress and emergence as a open-side to be reckoned with has absolutey nothing to do with Martyn. The players are nothing alike.

I do however, think Justin Tipuric is very similar to Martyn Williams.

So the fact that they've shared the same training field for years, one being an experienced international openside and the other being an up and coming rookie, you think that it's impossible that certain aspects of Williams' game will have rubbed off on the young rookie at Cardiff, just because they are built differently?

Think about it alittle more.

Morgannwg wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:It's just a theory but I believe that Sam Warburton would not be anywhere near as good as he is had he not been at the blues with Martyn Williams. He does all the same things as Martyn but he plays like Martyn on a permanent good day.

So thanks Mr Williams

Completely disagree, I couldn't disagree more. Sam's progress and emergence as a open-side to be reckoned with has absolutey nothing to do with Martyn. The players are nothing alike.

I do however, think Justin Tipuric is very similar to Martyn Williams.

Nonsense. They are very similar players. Both good over the ball at the breakdown and both superb linking players.

Morgannwg wrote:
Completely disagree, I couldn't disagree more. Sam's progress and emergence as a open-side to be reckoned with has absolutey nothing to do with Martyn. The players are nothing alike.

I do however, think Justin Tipuric is very similar to Martyn Williams.

I disagree with this, Warburton has frequently cited over the past 18 months how much he looks up to Williams and how he has been grateful to all the advice he has received from him.

Martyn and Sam are not similar. Sam also frequently cited that he looked to Richie McCaw for his inspiration. The development of Sam as a 7 is self-taught and he is of course, a Regional product. The Regions are producing players but not the desired results. In Martyn's last games for the Blues he had a high penalty count (and a yellow) so it appears that both are not good over the ball at the breakdown.

[/quote]


So the fact that they've shared the same training field for years, one being an experienced international openside and the other being an up and coming rookie, you think that it's impossible that certain aspects of Williams' game will have rubbed off on the young rookie at Cardiff, just because they are built differently?

Think about it alittle more.[/quote]

I didn't mention anything of what you're calling me out for. Perhaps you should think about it a little more. Just a thought.

Morgannwg

I disagree. Martyn at his peak in05 was a very similar player. perhaps not as dynamic but his natural game is very similar to Warburton. Not sure why you seem to have such an issue with this as it's plainly obvious to everyone that an experienced 7 in a squad would inevitably coach and instruct a young up and coming 7. For you to suggest that Warburton has learnt his trade without any influence from Martyn Williams is surprising

Morgannwg wrote:

So the fact that they've shared the same training field for years, one being an experienced international openside and the other being an up and coming rookie, you think that it's impossible that certain aspects of Williams' game will have rubbed off on the young rookie at Cardiff, just because they are built differently?

Think about it alittle more.[/quote]

I didn't mention anything of what you're calling me out for. Perhaps you should think about it a little more. Just a thought. [/quote]


Your position is that Williams has not influenced Warburton at all, and that Warburton will have learned nothing from training with Williams for years. Is that not what you're saying? That somehow Warburton, despite never having actually trained with or barely played against McCaw, somehow learned more from McCaw than Williams?

Am I misunderstanding you?

Of course Warburton will have picked up loads from Williams. He's said so himself.

McKay I disagree sorry. They are not similar at all. Martyn was a link man, a forward who could link with the back in open play. Sam's only weak point is this !! Yes I'm sure Martyn has given Sam plenty of advice over the years but I think without his he'd be just as good as he is now !

Sam was always an amazing talent all through the juniors he stood out. His strengths are defense, power over the ball, speed and strength. Thats not really how you'd describe Martyn Williams is it ??

And Sam is bound to say he's learnt a lot off Martyn. What can he say "nah Matyns rubbish I'd rather watch tapes of Richie McCaw" ?? Cos I bet thats what he's spent most of his time doing rather than watching re-runs of Maryn getting smashed about by the Southern Hemisphere boys.

Oxford Welsh wrote:McKay I disagree sorry. They are not similar at all. Martyn was a link man, a forward who could link with the back in open play. Sam's only weak point is this !! Yes I'm sure Martyn has given Sam plenty of advice over the years but I think without his he'd be just as good as he is now !

Sam was always an amazing talent all through the juniors he stood out. His strengths are defense, power over the ball, speed and strength. Thats not really how you'd describe Martyn Williams is it ??

So you don't think the extra competition from Williams at Cardiff and Wales forced Warburton to step up his efforts in order to win the jersey? You don't think healthy competition for places improves players? Odd.

Oxford Welsh wrote:McKay I disagree sorry. They are not similar at all. Martyn was a link man, a forward who could link with the back in open play. Sam's only weak point is this !! Yes I'm sure Martyn has given Sam plenty of advice over the years but I think without his he'd be just as good as he is now !

Sam was always an amazing talent all through the juniors he stood out. His strengths are defense, power over the ball, speed and strength. Thats not really how you'd describe Martyn Williams is it ??

That wasn't all he was. he was great at forcing turnovers and getting penalties by getting up to his feet and getting over the ball.

Scott and McKay - I guess you both have valid points.... McKay - I never really saw that in Martyn, certainly not in recent years but I guess thats the game changing with the rule changes.

Oxford Welsh - you have become my hero today. First time I've seen a poster actually participate in a debate and concede that the other side of the debate might actually have a point.

To be fair Williams played most of his rugby behind a beaten front five - when Wales finally got parityup front during the grandslams he showed his class

I read in an article I think in The Telegraph recently, that Gatland specifically told Sam to base his game not on that of Martin Williams but that of Richie McCaw and encouraged him to study the way he plays.

Messymesina - exactly as I would have guessed....

Despite the stick I've given Martyn here, I would definately be giving him a standing ovation for the work he's put in for the cause - 2 Grand Slams aint bad and he was key.

Also having met Martyn in a Club after Wales lost to Ireland in the Wembley days in 1999 I have to say he's a real humble guy, was devastated and apologised all night for the teams performance ! also unlike the other forwards at least he wasnt smoking

Scott & McKay - I agree with most of what Oxford Welsh has said. I also agree with what another poster said that Martyn was an extra back(a centre if you like) playing in the back-row.

Scott you implied that I made a point that they were not similar players because they were built differently. I didn't say anything about their builds. I don't think Martyn has influenced Sam because they are not similar open-side flankers. Surely anyone can see this? Going back to what Messmesina said, and also what I previoulsy said is that Sam was interviewed before citing the great Richie McCaw as his role model; he went on to mention how he would get up early on a saturday morning to watch him in action for the Crusaders and write down what McCaw did. Surely that's evidence enough for you? He wouldn't slag off a team mate, hence why he may have answered possitively when asked this question about MW.

Also, sadly, there was a reluctancy to start Warburton ahead of Martyn for too long. Sam was clearly the better player but I guess they had a certain bias or just rewarded Martyn for his loyalty - also evident by his pointless contract extension. There was no competition for the jersey because the Blues management didn't allow it. Gatland put faith in Sam before Blues did and that is when he started to emerge as a name.

McKay, I'm not sure why you are suprised at what I said. We have a lot to thank Martyn Williams for; his years of service to the national team and how he dazzled us with some of his performances. The development of Sam as a potential world class open-side though is not one of them.