Did Cleverly lose in winning????

Always thought Bellew was ordinary and last night didn't change my mind....The guy has a dodgy chin and absolutely no head movement...The guy hardly bothers to mix up his punches..

So why then is he ahead (for me after 10) until he runs out of steam.... having plenty of success..

Cleverly didn't prove anything by scraping past this guy and it wasn't a scrap in the Benn-Eubank mode... what made it exciting was the fact you could be seeing an upset...

Don't think Cleverly had a bad night just thought he struggled with a guy who has a half decent jab and is a straight up European fighter...

Cleverly won but for me has shown he's a lot more ordinary than at first I thought...

As for Degale that Polish guy apart from being Euro champ (somehow) was very ordinary too and I'm afraid he's showing us that he needs plenty of work....Wasn't convincing at all and it seems regardless of the Boxnation panel sucking up (Probably want to keep their jobs) he seems to be not learning anything (forget this 12th fight garbage) he's looking worse with every showing!!!

An extremley negitive, and not partuculary accurate review of a good nights boxing.

Negative...not everything is spelt how it sounds!!

It's an objective view...Bellew and the pole are ordinary fighters...

Expected more from both..

I will say though that the most impressive performance of the night came from Warren's less exposed Olympian who looked good...

Rocky Fielding..just forget it Mate and get another job.....Looked like an Octopus in a phone booth.

I think it is pretty obvious that the majority on here expected far less than what Bellew provided, with the anti-scouse vibe getting stronger the closer to the fight we got.

Also the pole had clearly done a lot of reasearch on Degale and came up with an effective gameplan, just like Groves had done, the difference this time is Degale reacted to the gameplan and came through it, showing he has learned something from that defeat. Also dont see how you can call the 12 fight thing nonsense, its a fact, he was fighting someone wih triplr the pro experience, its still early days, to have won British and euro titles is not bad going after 12 fights.

So an ordinary fighter does research and should have so much success..

Your explanation basically suggests Degale has no plan B... and you are basically screwing Degale by trying to stick up for him..

By stating Degale reacted to someone's gameplan, to go on to win the fight, how excactly have I stated that Degale has no plan B?

Because he struggled with an average face first guy...and so what if he won..

The guy was second rate and If he troubles him what happens when he fights someone decent..

Shouldn't need a plan b and If he had one..one thinks he'd have dealt with a straight forward one handed guy easier..

The Pole was maybe second rate but he was still a tough, seasoned guy and Degale has, in his defence, only had a dozen fights. He doesn't look world class but then he isn't, and nor are most boxers at their twelfth pro fight.

I agree with Truss. I've never been overly impressed with Cleverly, very ordinary. He seems to benefit from superhuman stamina (a la Calzaghe) which enables him to scrape through in these fights. Technically, he's nothing special.

Degale was pretty average too against a strong, but limited apponent. At least he toughed it out, though, and showed he can dig in. I can't see either Degale or Cleverly operating at true world level very successfully based on this evidence.

How many great/top quality fighters didn't know how to beat face first ordinary tough journeyman types in their 12th fight..???

Don't answer though you'll just say something stupid..

Truss, I can see the point of your headline. That Clev, who is obviously a world class operator and deserving of a title, struggled with a lad that most of us thought was a Euro level fighter. For me at least, Bellew surprised me how fast his hands actually were and how good his jab was. So, I am reassessing my view of Bellew, who also has only had 16 fights.

Your comments about how inexperience isn't relevant is tosh though. As it is so illogical I can't be bothered to dissect it.

Degale and Bellew are relative novices. They are not anywhere near the finished article. So, most people on here are judging them on where they think they are on the learning curve.

Truss, it looks like you have bought into the Degale hype if you think he should be a world class fighter after 12 fights.

Truss, you're distorting facts to make your weak argument. "Journeyman", he was the Euro title holder with only one loss on his record. Not some mexican road sweeper!

Agreed sweetie....You know can Degale change his style No...He can refine a few things but like Cleverly he's kind of set...

Both disappointed and both lack a plan B..

Bellew offered nothing but a jab and a straight up no frills style and he was losing before Bellew gassed it,..

Who's on his record Happy????

Antonio Rivera, Caelos Maussa and Alfredo Layne were world champions and they were journeymen.....Layne was 21-9....

They were world champions!!!!!!

So no weak argument..do not pass go and do not collect 200 bucks!!

It is weak. So, because nobody you rate is on his record, he's a journeyman. He is a man with an international title and only one loss. By definition, to win a title you have to be winning competitive bouts. How can that make you a journeyman? So, yes you are distorting reality to suit yourself. A title means nothing if it doesn't suit your argument. Thanks for the 200 bucks and put the D cap back on.

Truss, I see your point about Clev. But I, like most on here, put it down to Bellew actually being a little better than we thought than Clev not being that good.

Clev is also relatively inexperienced at the highest level. He's a bright lad and will hopefully go back to the gym with something to work on.

Not sure it is a grim as you make out.

It's not weak...because it's open to interpretation..

Face first one handed fighter with no head movement and no one on his record can be interpreted in many ways...mine is journeyman!!

I could beat the posman 14 times and the milkman 15 times and have a 29-0 record...does it make me good!!

Layne and Rivero won world titles in times when they mean't something...

They were "World champions"......

so it's nothing new...

Hahaha... so, what you're saying is you are putting your own interpretation on his career to make your point?

You're right Truss. These titles and baubles mean nothing. Its your opinion that matters... You could fight all those. But not for titles. Because when its for a title the competition is fiercer.

Just looked. Boxrec have him 25th in their world rankings. WBO 2nd. So, at what point in the world rankings do the Journeyman start in your ratings? Your top 10?

He was a Euro title holder, so by definition one of the best in Europe at the moment. Granted, you can argue the competition in Europe isn't particularly strong but he was still one of the best in Europe. And Degale, an up and coming European, beat him to move himself up the rankings. Trying to selectively denegrate his opponents when the impartial rankings and ratings suggest he is a decent opponent is biased Truss.

Only Clev's next fights will tell us whether he's won or lost in his mind. One encouragement was that he rarely stood and traded with Bellew as some predicted he would based on past fights, though he still got hit an awful lot.
Likewise Bellew's future should reveal whether he's more of a boxer than people realized or whether that was a one-off showing.

There's nothing to say Degale won't improve with experience. He's less than 15 fights into his career and has fought, won and lost against some challenging names for his current level. Shame the reviews on Degale are limited only to extremes, either you love him or hate him without any middle ground.

I'm allowed to have an opinion Happy....just because it's different to yours doesn't make it weak or strong........

I grew up watching Boxing every week....

Not just once every six monhs on GRANDSTAND..

Knowsit....one can summise however that Bellew doesn't move his head..doesn't use angles much and is a straight up ordinary type with a dodgy chin....

whether you put much to the fact it was enough to win before he got tired is open to interpretation..

Bellew has never been stopped, has in fact recovered to win aftera crushing blow to the temple, how chinny is he really?

I think Clev needs to leave his Dad behind, get in a proper gym, if hes gonna make the most of his stamina and speed, so in some sense I agree with you on Clev, I just think your being very harsh on Bellew.

I think it's fair to say that Cleverly's stock went down a touch after last night (and Bellew's went up). Cleverly painted a picture of him being a classy world-class operator who would be a notch above a good domestic level fighter. It wasn't the case. This fight was as tight as tight can be. I had it 114-114. If I had to choose a winner I'd say that Cleverly pipped it by a round. I think Cleverly has done very well for himself, but he looks to me to have reached his level. Can you imagine him against the top LHWs? Hopkins, Dawson, Pascal, Cloud - even Syllakh. I wouldn't fancy his chances at all.

How chinny is he really??

He's been decked by non-entities..

Box this..The judge who scored it even was close for me..

115-113....I had it.

If the Liverpool guy had got it...wouldn't have been a robbery..

Never been stopped though, if he was as chinny as your making out, he wouldnt have recovered against Orvill, I'm not saying he is Chris Eubank mark 2, but he's not made of glass like your making out either.

I though Bellew performed very well. He's always been a talented guy that just didn't seem to be able to put all the pieces together. To me he has been fairly annoying at times over the years but I thought he did himself proud in the ring last night and in the post fight interviews.

I don't know if Bellew's apparent problems making the weight effected his stamina particularly towards the end of the fight. Cleverly threw enough leather to test any fighters stamina.

Cleverly still has time to improve. At the moment I wouldn't see him beating the top LHW's.

Said he was chinny...not that he's a Hearns...facts show he is.

Can't be responsible for your mis-interpretation..

Dave Parris 117-112..........and people say German boxing is corrupt.

I bet Dave loves working on Frank's promotions.

You dont take any responsibilty for what you write either, you've been making out he cant take a shot, when in fact thats not been proven beyond all doubt, he can be hurt, but until he gets stopped, I wouldnt say he was a chinny fighter, which is my interpretation of the term.

Truss, but opinions are like aholes, everybody's got one. To make your opinion count you have to justify it. And just saying its your opinion doesn't do that. Especially when all the "independent" sources contradict yours. You were trying to denegrate Degales win by saying you didn't think his inexperience didn't count and his opponent was a journeyman that even your granny could beat. I was saying you were putting an extreme slant on it to make your point. I argued to claim inexperience wasn't a valid point was illogical and your assertions his opponent was toilet contradicted at least 3 organisations rankings of him. You just said it was your opinion.

Knowsit's assessment is right. Bellew and Degale are still relative novices. Bellew's next fight will tell us a lot. If this last fight was a one off or if he really is improving to a better level than we/I thought. If he hasn't then it was a bad night at the office for Clev and a good one for Bellew.

Your "average" fighter doesn't get a title till approx their 20th fight, give or take 5. Degale was in his 12th fight and, what, 3rd title fight? He is way ahead of the curve and if he demonstrates a little inexperience, well, that's because he is!

I've justified my opinion....What independent sources are these...

I'm American I'm about the only independent source here..

Bunce etc work for Warren...Most here are English or Welsh!!!

Do me a favor..

Well, 2... the EBU and Boxrec... WBO isn't independent I suppose...

Just love to confront the tedious record deconstruction that passes on here for an argument/opinion. As we can all give a biased subjective slant and make the argument that "he was a bum" etc. The fact he was a "journeyman" was only your opinion. Reality is, if they have a title, they qualified to fight for it and they won it. That's not subjective. You can argue the quality of opponent etc. but they at least went through a selection process and won a competitive bout (or more). Your opinion is subjective and comes from, where?

Your opinion was heavily bias as it ignored these facts. So, it was not independent ;-)

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I will say though that the most impressive performance of the night came from Warren's less exposed Olympian who looked good...

Rocky Fielding..just forget it Mate and get another job.....Looked like an Octopus in a phone booth.

Our Rocky had a change of opponant on the Thursday! Lee Noble is a completely different fighter compared to Tolan. I thought he done well considering the circumstances.

Get another job? He was put on that card cos he's got a good following and would also drum up support for Bellew also. He making quite a good living at moment I can tell you.

You're honestly not telling me that a guy who punches like an octopus on acid has a future...???

He looks terrible..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're honestly not telling me that a guy who punches like an octopus on acid has a future...???

He looks terrible..

Seen a lot more of him then you have and yes I do.

He hasn't done too badly for him self so far and has done it the hard way. Had no promoter when he started now under a lucrative contract with Warren.

I can see how a guy punches and his style.....

Don't need to see more of him..

Ordinary, ordinary fighter....

You his brother or something??

If you are have a go yourself there must be someone with talent in your family!!

Bellew had a good jab kept his hands up well he is a well schooled amateur and actually showed it last night and performed as best to his abilities last night, he was far better than I thought he was.

Cleverly was outjabbed and he has a good jab showing that Bellew is no pathetic guy.

Who said he was pathetic????

I mean come on...

No one but I'm stating he isn't pathetic, you think everything is someone trying to insult you or reacting to something ridiculous Truss, just your typical wumming again.

My thread offers a fair opinion on what I saw last night and my conclusions..

You think It's wumming by all means think that..

Never said he was pathetic!!!!

Not wumming in my book...and It's the American book...

Written in Boston at the end of the 18th century..

At what point did I say you said Bellew was pathetic?! Not one. Christ.
I using it as a point to say it's a good win from Cleverly.

I long for the days when I had up-market stalkers ...and not this kind of trash..

Truss no one cares...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I can see how a guy punches and his style.....

Don't need to see more of him..

Ordinary, ordinary fighter....

You his brother or something??

If you are have a go yourself there must be someone with talent in your family!!

Take your opinion with a pinch of salt. Barker to Sergio haha

Well why do you keep following me around then..

give me strength!!!

I picked Tyson to beat Douglas and Hatton to beat Manny!!!

You're obviously related to this guy as anybody who watched saw a very ordinary fighter..

Sincerely mean that too...If the truth hurts I'm sorry but he looks like an octopus on acid Mate..

sorry..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I picked Tyson to beat Douglas and Hatton to beat Manny!!!

You're obviously related to this guy as anybody who watched saw a very ordinary fighter..

Sincerely mean that too...If the truth hurts I'm sorry but he looks like an octopus on acid Mate..

sorry..

What's with the octopus thing? Was you giggling away to yourself whilst typing that. Saddo. Think nearly everyone picked Tyson to win, a few picked Hatton, but Barker to beat Sergio? On your there.

As a said, your opinion, not worth a carrot

Fielding is still a novice and will take a bit of time to get better. He's a good guy I like him but he's not that good, maybe will get to Euro Level after a bit of hard work though.

Agree with the initial sentiments..

But, my god, what an obnoxious middle-aged child you are..

It probably a bad result for fans in the sense that I cant see Warren risky Cleverly in big fight soon. I would expect the usual noises about wanting Hopkins or Dawson or whoever next but on the basis of that fight Warren will know better. If Maccareinelli can make the weight I would not be overly surprised to see him up next.

To be fair it makes no real sense to put him in against Dawson, Dawson has fought a higher level of opposition and fighting him NOW would be a mistrake but 2-3 fights time against good opposition he could be ready. Clev has a good chin and outworking Dawson might not be hard, but I do worry that Bellew outjabbed him against Dawson he may find the jab impossible to stop.