Did Cleverly lose in winning????

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Always thought Bellew was ordinary and last night didn't change my mind....The guy has a dodgy chin and absolutely no head movement...The guy hardly bothers to mix up his punches..

So why then is he ahead (for me after 10) until he runs out of steam.... having plenty of success..

Cleverly didn't prove anything by scraping past this guy and it wasn't a scrap in the Benn-Eubank mode... what made it exciting was the fact you could be seeing an upset...

Don't think Cleverly had a bad night just thought he struggled with a guy who has a half decent jab and is a straight up European fighter...

Cleverly won but for me has shown he's a lot more ordinary than at first I thought...

As for Degale that Polish guy apart from being Euro champ (somehow) was very ordinary too and I'm afraid he's showing us that he needs plenty of work....Wasn't convincing at all and it seems regardless of the Boxnation panel sucking up (Probably want to keep their jobs) he seems to be not learning anything (forget this 12th fight garbage) he's looking worse with every showing!!!

Really makes me think Cleverly will not go much further. His power was non-existent in there and apart from stamina and workrate he was no better than Bellew. Deserved the win but thought he would do better than that. Unless he gets rid of his rubbish trainer father then he will get caught out against a relative unkown never mind Hopkins, Dawson etc.

AlexHuckerby wrote:To be fair it makes no real sense to put him in against Dawson, Dawson has fought a higher level of opposition and fighting him NOW would be a mistrake but 2-3 fights time against good opposition he could be ready. Clev has a good chin and outworking Dawson might not be hard, but I do worry that Bellew outjabbed him against Dawson he may find the jab impossible to stop.

I dont think hes quite read for those fights either, but what I fear now is a series of really uninspiring defences rather than progressive bouts forward. On the basis of how he handled Bellew (who to be fair was better than most expected) even fighters like Diaconu might be seen as too high risk at the moment.

Super D Boon wrote:Really makes me think Cleverly will not go much further. His power was non-existent in there and apart from stamina and workrate he was no better than Bellew. Deserved the win but thought he would do better than that. Unless he gets rid of his rubbish trainer father then he will get caught out against a relative unkown never mind Hopkins, Dawson etc.

I thought it was quite telling that when Enzo Mac was asked about Clev's 'power' (the question itself was along the lines of 'you've sparred many, many rds with him, how heavy handed is he?' ie. a very direct question, he replied with (paraphrasing) 'Clev is very fast, and has great stamina and work rate' but neglected to mention anything about his 'power'.

I think we can read from that reply that Enzo Mac (aka immortal chicken dancer) does not rate Clev's power at all.

This is from the guy who now starts automated chicken dancing as soon as the bell rings - kinda reminiscent of Pavlov's homies.

Bellew is ordinary and made Cleverly look it.....bottom line..

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:To be fair it makes no real sense to put him in against Dawson, Dawson has fought a higher level of opposition and fighting him NOW would be a mistrake but 2-3 fights time against good opposition he could be ready. Clev has a good chin and outworking Dawson might not be hard, but I do worry that Bellew outjabbed him against Dawson he may find the jab impossible to stop.

I dont think hes quite read for those fights either, but what I fear now is a series of really uninspiring defences rather than progressive bouts forward. On the basis of how he handled Bellew (who to be fair was better than most expected) even fighters like Diaconu might be seen as too high risk at the moment.

Not sure Diaconu is too much higher than the likes of Karo Murat, think that Clev is a bit better than most suspect and I think Bellew is too.
Got to be honest though if Cleverly had fought BHop, he would never have gained the credit for it.

Yes he would...Warren would've milked it for all it for all it was worth....

Calzaghe got credit from the boxing community for Jones jr....

Lot's of buttlickers like Buncey who'll shout from the rooftops.

Buncey usually speaks the truth but at the same time if he wants a paycheck he may have to do the occassional bumlicking.

Calzaghe got sod all credit for fighting Jones Jr and rightly so, due in no small part to Calzaghe's admission in his own autobiography that Jones was past it.

He got credit in the tabloids by boxing writers.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He got credit in the tabloids by boxing writers.....

Which ones? I doubt they were impartial ones. Most likely Brit tabloid journo scumbags who wouldn't know their arse from their elbow.

I'll just nip down to the library and look for the papers from years ago..

You said he got sod all credit.. I'm saying he did because I remember reading the articles..

end of..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'll just nip down to the library and look for the papers from years ago..

You said he got sod all credit.. I'm saying he did because I remember reading the articles..

end of..

Quite.. I'm sure the little old blind, deaf and decrepit lady down the road also thought he was great against Jones.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'll just nip down to the library and look for the papers from years ago..

You said he got sod all credit.. I'm saying he did because I remember reading the articles..

end of..

And I'm saying that if it wasn't from a reputable source then it's worthless. Like getting a character reference from your mum. No doubt the hacks in the Sun and Mirror will have hailed it as the greatest upset since David slew Goliath, but that means diddley. Calzaghe put on a decent performance, but it was against an opponent he himself had said was ready for the knackers yard.

End of end of yadda yadda.

Didn't read these articles thinking some wally is going to ask me to quote the sources about six years later!!!

Come on....He got credit for Jones..end of..

AlexHuckerby wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:To be fair it makes no real sense to put him in against Dawson, Dawson has fought a higher level of opposition and fighting him NOW would be a mistrake but 2-3 fights time against good opposition he could be ready. Clev has a good chin and outworking Dawson might not be hard, but I do worry that Bellew outjabbed him against Dawson he may find the jab impossible to stop.

I dont think hes quite read for those fights either, but what I fear now is a series of really uninspiring defences rather than progressive bouts forward. On the basis of how he handled Bellew (who to be fair was better than most expected) even fighters like Diaconu might be seen as too high risk at the moment.

Not sure Diaconu is too much higher than the likes of Karo Murat, think that Clev is a bit better than most suspect and I think Bellew is too.
Got to be honest though if Cleverly had fought BHop, he would never have gained the credit for it.

As in fighting Hopkins the number 1 ranked guy in the division? He would have got alot more credit for that than any other fight out there for him.

Ive watched Cleverlys last few fights and I havent been impressed really. He seems to make hard work of average fighters. Bellew might be better than credited, but hes still euro level at best at pretty inexperienced. Im not sure Cleverly would beat Diaconu on that last performance, or if he did it would be by a very narrow margin. Hence why I think Warren might not take the risk with that kind of fighter right now. Il be interested to see how he progresses but I suspect we will see some low risk bouts for the next few fights at least.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Didn't read these articles thinking some wally is going to ask me to quote the sources about six years later!!!

Come on....He got credit for Jones..end of..

End of because you can't cite sources and you can't stand people disagreeing with you. What a surprise. If you're gonna go cry to the mods about being a victim you might wanna stop flinging petty insults left right and centre.

Whatever...you said he didn't get any credit...you can't prove that either...

You made the point first and I rebutted because you have no case!!!

As you prosecuted and I defended..Guess I win...chump!

SugarRayBray wrote:I agree with Truss. I've never been overly impressed with Cleverly, very ordinary. He seems to benefit from superhuman stamina (a la Calzaghe) which enables him to scrape through in these fights. Technically, he's nothing special.

Degale was pretty average too against a strong, but limited apponent. At least he toughed it out, though, and showed he can dig in. I can't see either Degale or Cleverly operating at true world level very successfully based on this evidence.

Couldn't agree more.

Cleverly is billed as the next great hype but must learn not to fight with his face. Stamina was great and inside fighting was pretty good too but to have so much problems from Bellew - who I do give credit to and came across much better in the post fight interview than in anything media related pre fight - is not a good sign when he's talking of moving up a level.

I wanted Cleverly to take initiative more in 9th and 10th instead of reacting to Bellew, he could have won the fight by a much bigger margin.

As for DeFail, great guts to dig in and turn things around but was so open. Looked good and fast when he committed to an attacked but spent too much time walking around trying to imitate a Floyd Mayweather stance and got caught way to often.

These two should not talk of world level when they are clearly well short of it. The Froch's, B-Hop's and Kessler's have nothing to fear on this showing.

On the money Tumbling....Especially Degale the Polish-guy was so predictable and yet got through so easily....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Bellew is ordinary and made Cleverly look it.....bottom line..

No that's YOUR opinion

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:To be fair it makes no real sense to put him in against Dawson, Dawson has fought a higher level of opposition and fighting him NOW would be a mistrake but 2-3 fights time against good opposition he could be ready. Clev has a good chin and outworking Dawson might not be hard, but I do worry that Bellew outjabbed him against Dawson he may find the jab impossible to stop.

I dont think hes quite read for those fights either, but what I fear now is a series of really uninspiring defences rather than progressive bouts forward. On the basis of how he handled Bellew (who to be fair was better than most expected) even fighters like Diaconu might be seen as too high risk at the moment.

Not sure Diaconu is too much higher than the likes of Karo Murat, think that Clev is a bit better than most suspect and I think Bellew is too.
Got to be honest though if Cleverly had fought BHop, he would never have gained the credit for it.

As in fighting Hopkins the number 1 ranked guy in the division? He would have got alot more credit for that than any other fight out there for him.

Ive watched Cleverlys last few fights and I havent been impressed really. He seems to make hard work of average fighters. Bellew might be better than credited, but hes still euro level at best at pretty inexperienced. Im not sure Cleverly would beat Diaconu on that last performance, or if he did it would be by a very narrow margin. Hence why I think Warren might not take the risk with that kind of fighter right now. Il be interested to see how he progresses but I suspect we will see some low risk bouts for the next few fights at least.

Disagree, I think everyone would have played the old well Hopkins was 46 he was too old, he had to finish sometime, father time was against him and it showed in the Clev fight.
that would have been the responses because not many think Clev is that good.

Looks like Sweetie and Tumbling agree... young Fielding..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:On the money Tumbling....Especially Degale the Polish-guy was so predictable and yet got through so easily....

Very true, a tough chap but hardly blessed with super skills, yet that was enough to give JDG a whole heap of trouble.

The 12 fight excuse is fine if DeGale and Frank weren't shouting at us about how great he is, but as Kid Rock once said, "It ain't cocky if you back it up", so far, apart from flashes, I've yet to see backup. And Kid Rock was with a close to prime Pam Anderson too, so he clearly knows his stuff.

Similar to Haye, he wouldn't get nearly as much of a hard time if he hadn't been so abrasive in the build up.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:To be fair it makes no real sense to put him in against Dawson, Dawson has fought a higher level of opposition and fighting him NOW would be a mistrake but 2-3 fights time against good opposition he could be ready. Clev has a good chin and outworking Dawson might not be hard, but I do worry that Bellew outjabbed him against Dawson he may find the jab impossible to stop.

I dont think hes quite read for those fights either, but what I fear now is a series of really uninspiring defences rather than progressive bouts forward. On the basis of how he handled Bellew (who to be fair was better than most expected) even fighters like Diaconu might be seen as too high risk at the moment.

Not sure Diaconu is too much higher than the likes of Karo Murat, think that Clev is a bit better than most suspect and I think Bellew is too.
Got to be honest though if Cleverly had fought BHop, he would never have gained the credit for it.

As in fighting Hopkins the number 1 ranked guy in the division? He would have got alot more credit for that than any other fight out there for him.

Ive watched Cleverlys last few fights and I havent been impressed really. He seems to make hard work of average fighters. Bellew might be better than credited, but hes still euro level at best at pretty inexperienced. Im not sure Cleverly would beat Diaconu on that last performance, or if he did it would be by a very narrow margin. Hence why I think Warren might not take the risk with that kind of fighter right now. Il be interested to see how he progresses but I suspect we will see some low risk bouts for the next few fights at least.

Disagree, I think everyone would have played the old well Hopkins was 46 he was too old, he had to finish sometime, father time was against him and it showed in the Clev fight.
that would have been the responses because not many think Clev is that good.

If you beat the number one guy in the division theres not much more you can do. Hopkins is past his best but there could be no argument over his status. Hatton beat a past prime Tszyu but he still got his dues for it. Saying Hopkins is past his best is simply stating the truth, however the fact he was the number 1 light heavy would give Cleverly all the counter arguments he needed. People might say Hopkins was past his best, which is true, but I wouldnt say it neccessarily means Cleverly would get no credit. Hopkins would have started a significant favourite.

i think its a bit irrelevant discussing whether clev would get credit for beating hopkins. Its a bit like wondering whether johnny from x factor would beat vitali klitschko... not a fight that's likely to happen, but a fairly predictable result if it did.

irrespective of the playground fighting, i'd say truss' initial assessment is about right. clev's stock is down since last night. I've never been sold on him, and i'm not seeing anything to change my mind...there's no sign of improvement.

De gale has more obvious talent, but not sure he has it between the ears, both de gale and cleverly are young enough, to improve, but irrespective of experience, you'd hope they could handle last night's opponents with more to spare... i.e. at least something to spare.

milkyboy wrote:i think its a bit irrelevant discussing whether clev would get credit for beating hopkins. Its a bit like wondering whether johnny from x factor would beat vitali klitschko... not a fight that's likely to happen, but a fairly predictable result if it did.

irrespective of the playground fighting, i'd say truss' initial assessment is about right. clev's stock is down since last night. I've never been sold on him, and i'm not seeing anything to change my mind...there's no sign of improvement.

De gale has more obvious talent, but not sure he has it between the ears, both de gale and cleverly are young enough, to improve, but irrespective of experience, you'd hope they could handle last night's opponents with more to spare... i.e. at least something to spare.

What, so because it's a predictable result Wlad shouldn't even have to bother proving it? Is he...is Wlad ducking Johnny from X-Factor..?!?

Don't bother Milky..rise above it!!!

Jesus, are you stalking me or what?

Yes I'm stalking you on my thread..

don't worry truss, i think tarzan boy has a point.

Allegedly, johnny has been prepared to mix it with the very intimidating kitty. Admittedly domestic level opposition, but a frightening opponent none-the-less. vitali running scared imo.

You would know Milky....always thought you had the X-factor...

PS I'm not stalking you..

I've never really been sold on Cleverley.
His lack of power is alarming and he's struggling with limited fighters that he should easily be a level above.
Even before Bellow, there was the fight with Nadjib Mohammedi in which he was very unconvincing.
At the moment, he seems to be purely relying on his superior stamina, fitness and workrate in order to simply outwork his opponents, as opposed to outboxing them. Also, despite his clear lack of power, he fights too much like a man who has plenty of it.
The division is pretty poor at the moment which gives him hope but I fear that he's only one decent fighter away from getting his a$$ handed to him.
If Enzo makes the weight without any major issues, I actually think Big Mac would beat him.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like Sweetie and Tumbling agree... young Fielding..

Think its more to do with Cleverly like

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You would know Milky....always thought you had the X-factor...

PS I'm not stalking you..

well truss, you wouldn't be the first beefster, to stalk me.

Did you see the bears' game?

I felt before the fight that Bellew would win, not that I thought Bellew was good just that Cleverly was ordinary and would get dragged into a scrap. Although Cleverly won it went the way I expected apart from Bellew tiring in the last couple of rounds.

Strangely enough defeat has done more for Bellew than victory has done for Cleverly. Cleverly has shown that he isn't ready to fight any of the top guys at 175lbs he's probably further away from a shot at any of them than he was before last night. Whereas Bellew may have put himself in amongst the Euro title contenders.

As for DeGale he looked decent but nothing special against a guy who was pretty ordinary. I hope Frank is using the Euro strap DeGale now possesses to make the Groves fight happen and not to push DeGale towards the winner of Kessler vs Steiglitz which is being mentioned by DeGale and Warren. Kessler should win that one when it does happen and DeGale would not deal with Kessler very well he needs to slow down and fight at Euro level and stay away from Groves as well

Cleverly will box Shumenov next imo

A fellow token title holder. I wouldn't be surprised. Frank won't let him in with any of the top five 175lbers.

Good at protecting his investments is Frank...

Problem is sooner or later the good fighters get ideas of grandeur and leave him for a real fight......

Shame that some guys actually desire a lasting legacy!!!

Gratitude for you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Truss that's fine when you are Joe Calzaghe or Ricky Hatton and have the ability to cut it at World class but Cleverly doesn't look of that quality. Frank won't put him in a fight he thinks Cleverly will lose and that rules out the top 5.

Couldn't agree with you more...

which is why Degale-Groves won't happen......why risk two investments..

Probably why Boxnation will fall flat too!!!

If I was Warren I wouldn't want DeGale-Groves to happen but it seems he does. There is a chance that Groves just has DeGales number and another defeat to Groves would be very damaging to DeGale.