Do you have to win a World title to be a British great ?????

Interesting but I saw that Cook kid fighting the other night and I saw that he'd had an exemplary record at British level.....

Henry Cooper had an exemplary career also at Brit/Euro level......Can winning lonsdale belts create an alltime great legacy or do you want your British greats to win World titles...

I can't see why a guy like Cook shouldn't be a British alltime great or do you insist on success at world level???

Jim Driscoll didn't win one and most Brits agree he is a great.

Pass.

These days, I think yes, you have to win a world title to have any claim of 'greatness.' Booth, as much as I've always liked and supported him, isn't a British all-time great.

The link between him and the likes of Driscoll, Moran and Charnley is a bit tenuous, really; to say world titles were harder to come by back then than now in Booth's era is an understatement. Have no problem with anyone calling the aforementioned trio 'British all-time greats', but in the modern game a fighter can't reach that status on these shores without a world title or two.

British great....you'd know more than me what it would encompass Chris...

Suppose the British crown is still revered...maybe it's as good as a world title these days...

Not sure you need a world belt..

I'll ignore the idiot

Herold Graham is a British great who never won a title. Still fondly remembered though.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Herold Graham is a British great who never won a title. Still fondly remembered though.

Agreed, sad to hear that he tried to do himself in on the Steve Bunce boxing hour. Not while he was on the actual show

I’d have named it ‘USA>Britain’ but each to his own.

Michael Watson, tragedy aside, tends to get a pretty good press and with reason.

I would say there is more to it.

In the current climate where there are so many titles available it would be tricky not to.

Yet if for example there were three boxers who were widely regarded as the best their divisions had ever seen and the titles were shared between two of them (could be from anywhere in the world) then the third (the Brit) would also be rated highly.

Then there are people that have picked up world titles that would still have a long way to go (Enzo Maccarinelli).

Think the same could be said for every country.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Herold Graham is a British great who never won a title. Still fondly remembered though.

Great British fighter should definitely have been world champ, at 39 years old still had enough to give Brewer nightmares(dropped Brewer twice) then ran out of gas, S/D against McCallum with a point deducted for throwing McCallum over his shoulder, battering Jackson before hanging his chin out against a known KO specialist.
Big Bomber Graham fan and hope he's ok alway's came over as a decent bloke as well.

Same question could apply to any country. These days, probably yes. In the past, probably not. Same could be said for America, Trussy.

No because with all due respect some other Countries have a greater heritage..so the bar is raised...

Nico the gman wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Herold Graham is a British great who never won a title. Still fondly remembered though.

Great British fighter should definitely have been world champ, at 39 years old still had enough to give Brewer nightmares(dropped Brewer twice) then ran out of gas, S/D against McCallum with a point deducted for throwing McCallum over his shoulder, battering Jackson before hanging his chin out against a known KO specialist.
Big Bomber Graham fan and hope he's ok alway's came over as a decent bloke as well.

Both of you guys beat me to it. As soon as I read the first post Herol Graham came to mind. Does anyone rate Chris Pyatt as a better fighter than Graham just because Pyatt won a world title and Graham didn't? Not me.

No, I do not think you have to win a world title to be considered a British great. This would be unfair to many old timers in Britain who only had one world title to fight for compared to the 4 titles that we now have.

Funnily enough I thought of Graham when I wrote it...Was really a british great though or was he knocking on the door....

He lost all his biggest fights!!

In his pomp, he was the British, Commonwealth and Euro champ at light middle, then he moved up and became the British and Euro champ at middle, and he did this undeafeated. At domestic level that's quite an achievement.

It is which is why I'm asking if he was knocking on the door or should be in basically...

Kalambay, Mccallum and the real disappointment JACKSON....I thought my leave him out...but if you're happy to include him then I can understand...

Would you Watson in there too??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Would you Watson in there too??

Not really. I think he's a good way behind Graham.

Probably right even though Benn is better than anything Graham beat!!! I gave Watson the first Eubank fight too....

Being American I remember Graham more for what he didn't do rather than what he did......

Although he carried a reputation and was regarded before Hagler lost the crown as I recall..

Depends. Would the higher bar in America automatically exclude any non world champs? If so, a hell of an impressive list of fighters would be dismissed. What would the mark of greatness be in America? Now and in the past?

Amazed rowley hasn't been on here - but since I'm almost as rabidly pro-Burley as he is -

No you don't have to win a title to be a great.

If you did have to win the title - Ezzy Charles wouldn't have been one of the greatest MW/LHWs of all time. Burley wouldn't be the hero/legend that he was.

And if its true for US fighters - its true for UK fighters as well.

So, before you say it - yes, Tommy Farr was a British great.

Burley or Langford......are they great?

What about Packy McFarland?

Strongback wrote:Burley or Langford......are they great?

I'm hoping and praying that sentence is rhetorical.

No but they were exceptions...champions in all but name...had they been given a shot no doubt they would've been....not like the Graham's etc..

For what it's worth, I thought at the time when they were all fighting that Graham would have beaten Benn, Eubank and Watson and Sibson too.

Sibson is another one. Although not really considered a British great, I'd rate him higher on a British list than Enzo and Gavin Rees, both of whom won world titles.

Sibson also beat a good Alan Minter, but if you rate world champs higher then you'd have to rate Minter higher, same with Dave Green who beat John H Stracey.

I think if Graham believed he could have beaten Hagler in 87.......

Not before though..

Birmingham's Owen Moran has some pretty good scalps to his name, as well as being the only man to have stopped Battling Nelson. Acknowledged on both sides of the Atlantic as having been a genuinely great fighter, Moran never did win an official world title.

Might have been better if I'd added ...these days.... to the title.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Might have been better if I'd added ...these days.... to the title.

Then there would be no debate.

I suppose the only debate would be to who "these days" applies to..

How far back we go..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I suppose the only debate would be to who "these days" applies to..

How far back we go..

Never a truer word spoken. You should exclude Windy - cos otherwise we'll be discussing fighters right back to John L Sullivan.

Since the advent of the IBF - that would be a reasonable place to start.

We'll ignore the Corbett and Fitz pink dress he wore as well..

Spoilsports, the pair of you.

Tbh Im not sure there are more belts now so it is easier to win to them but on the other hand it is hader to be undisputed because you have to win so many. Henry Cooper never won a world title most people think he was a great but then someone like Clinton Woods won a title he is not that much good. Then Hatton who is definately a great but was not undisputed so I think it is hard to say for sure but maybe you need a world title to make sure.

Some people can be undisputed in all but name..

oxring wrote:

Strongback wrote:Burley or Langford......are they great?

I'm hoping and praying that sentence is rhetorical.

Did you say you went to Oxford University?

Hope you're not having a hack.... at Oxy...

Burley and Langford's records speak for themselves, aswell as the type of men who avoided them.