Martin Johnson quits...

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... RFU Statement due any time now

Could get Jiffy in, NUMBERS

I wish rob andrew would quit.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:I wish rob andrew would quit.

What does he do now?

Yes a really sad day....

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:

Its funny how OTT everything has been since the RWC, basically england
won the six nations, won every game in their group having the least
tries scored against them and then lost to a team that almost won the
whole tournament. It wasn't a total shambles any team can lose to france
on thier day (the off pitch stuff is media hyped drivel that everyones
seems to have bought into) .

Exactly this. Couldn't have out it better myself. It's the typical English sports mentality – we're either the best in the world or an absolute disgrace. I think the post-WC reaction has been way over the top.

I didn't want Jonno to go – he's improved England. We've played some good rugby under him. He also seemed to be learning.

He made some frustrating selection decisions – in particular doggedly persisting with the Hape Tindall axis in midfield, only to then change things around at the last minute, was bizarre.

Overall though I would have liked him to stay. Consistency is underrated in my opinion.

Having said that I'm also a bit excited to see who's appointed next and what sort of team they pick. There are a lot of really exciting young players around and I think with the right management England could (maybe even should) be right up at the top of world rugby again in the not-too-distant future.

Eustace bury your head in the sand then.


Under Martin Johnson's management we haven't beaten South Africa or New Zealand. Even Scotland have managed a win vs South Africa.

Have we looked like closing the gap? No.

Performance is as important as results. You can get away with not playing well if you keep winning but do England keep winning? No.

Do you genuinely think England have a gameplan? I don't.

You can pat yourself on the back because England beat teams ranked below them in the world cup. Argentina and Scotland weren't that far off beating England were they?

England lost to a French side bereft of confidence who had been smashed by NZ in the pool stages and outmuscled by Tonga.

Martin Johnson has had better players than his predecessors to work with.

Beshocked I take it you aren't a glass half full kinda guy?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

TrailApe wrote:

Johnno isn't being disposed of, he's quitting

Ah but did he jump or was he pushed?

He's jumping.

How can you possible know if he's being pushed or he jumped unaided?

Plenty of people here are assuming he's been pushed despite all the press reports saying he's resigned. I'm just restoring the balance.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Plenty of people here are assuming he's been pushed despite all the press reports saying he's resigned. I'm just restoring the balance.

lol, if you can't beat em join em!

Something like that!

roddersm when it comes to Saracens I am a glass half full guy.Well when we are winning....

I think the amount of youngsters in England coming through is excellent. Just need a new English management to utilise them properly.

Lots of potential just need to tap into it.

A certain RWC finalist manager is looking for a job...just saying

seriously, England seem to have been on the way up since MJ took the team but still in a transition period with a mix of old and new players hence the inconsistent result but you cant deny MJ to have brought the likes of ashton, foden and tuilagi so within a couple of years time he could have fully rejuvenated the team and be competitive for the next RWC.

Under Martin Johnson's management we haven't beaten South Africa or New
Zealand. Even Scotland have managed a win vs South Africa.

Have we looked like closing the gap? No.

I think we have looked like we were closing the gap – we've improved under Martin Johnson and won home and away against a SH side for the first time in ages, won a 6N for the first time in ages, beaten Ireland away for the first time in ages, looked (sporadically) quite useful in attack for the first time in ages...

I think we can all agree England aren't as good as we'd like them to be, but that isn't to say either:

a) They weren't getting better under Johnson.

or

b) they will do better under another coach.

We've had a few other coaches since 2003 and none of them have been as good as Johnson IMO. I think we'd have done better sticking with him than chopping and changing AGAIN. I hope I'm wrong though.

whocares wrote:A certain RWC finalist manager is looking for a job...just saying

seriously, England seem to have been on the way up since MJ took the team but still in a transition period with a mix of old and new players hence the inconsistent result but you cant deny MJ to have brought the likes of ashton, foden and tuilagi so within a couple of years time he could have fully rejuvenated the team and be competitive for the next RWC.

I don't agree about Ashton (the coach). But I do agree with your comments about MJ. I also think he might have resigned if he was told he was going to be fired. Save face for all.

It will be interesting to see where he lands.

beshocked wrote:

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:

Its funny how OTT everything has been since the RWC, basically england
won the six nations, won every game in their group having the least
tries scored against them and then lost to a team that almost won the
whole tournament. It wasn't a total shambles any team can lose to france
on thier day (the off pitch stuff is media hyped drivel that everyones
seems to have bought into) .

Exactly this. Couldn't have out it better myself. It's the typical English sports mentality – we're either the best in the world or an absolute disgrace. I think the post-WC reaction has been way over the top.

I didn't want Jonno to go – he's improved England. We've played some good rugby under him. He also seemed to be learning.

He made some frustrating selection decisions – in particular doggedly persisting with the Hape Tindall axis in midfield, only to then change things around at the last minute, was bizarre.

Overall though I would have liked him to stay. Consistency is underrated in my opinion.

Having said that I'm also a bit excited to see who's appointed next and what sort of team they pick. There are a lot of really exciting young players around and I think with the right management England could (maybe even should) be right up at the top of world rugby again in the not-too-distant future.

Eustace bury your head in the sand then.


Under Martin Johnson's management we haven't beaten South Africa or New Zealand. Even Scotland have managed a win vs South Africa.

Have we looked like closing the gap? No.

Performance is as important as results. You can get away with not playing well if you keep winning but do England keep winning? No.

Do you genuinely think England have a gameplan? I don't.

You can pat yourself on the back because England beat teams ranked below them in the world cup. Argentina and Scotland weren't that far off beating England were they?

England lost to a French side bereft of confidence who had been smashed by NZ in the pool stages and outmuscled by Tonga.

Martin Johnson has had better players than his predecessors to work with.

Your points mean nothing really, as there are loads you could use for and against. It's a simple pick your facts to support your opinion.

Was Eddie Jones actually a good coach? And would he go for the Eng role?

Part of me is sorry to see MJ go, another part looks at the highs and lows of his reign and wonders just how many more highs and how higher they'd be if we'd actually had a qualified coach/manager in the role.

Could be exciting times for Eng.

yappysnap wrote:Was Eddie Jones actually a good coach? And would he go for the Eng role?

Part of me is sorry to see MJ go, another part looks at the highs and lows of his reign and wonders just how many more highs and how higher they'd be if we'd actually had a qualified coach/manager in the role.

Could be exciting times for Eng.

i hope so, i'm just hoping some of the backroom staff go too else i'll be angry!!! lol

The worst thing about Johnson leaving is that England might actually get a coach who knows what they are doing.

Well as my old teacher used to say, the man who never made any mistakes never made anything.

I wish MJ had stayed on and built on what he had learned, with some new coaches further down. I think there are obvious issues with support for whoever is in charge. For what its worth of the mistakes that were made at the RWC the one that concerns me the most was the way that discipline amongst the senior players seemed to break down. The whole business with the bar incident, non event that it probably was, was handled so badly.

What I really hope for now is that the knee jerk reaction of bringing in a foreign manager is avoided, Mallet excepted.

Nothing the RFU has done lately reflects well on that organization. A new CEO is needed urgently to start setting an example from the top.

MJ has made the right decision. He was learning on the job, made some mistakes but imo he fell short of the mark. England need a more experienced manager to shape and develop a talented pool of players. I hope they ditch Andrew too - an unecessary in-between role.

doctor_grey wrote:

whocares wrote:A certain RWC finalist manager is looking for a job...just saying

seriously, England seem to have been on the way up since MJ took the team but still in a transition period with a mix of old and new players hence the inconsistent result but you cant deny MJ to have brought the likes of ashton, foden and tuilagi so within a couple of years time he could have fully rejuvenated the team and be competitive for the next RWC.

I don't agree about Ashton (the coach). But I do agree with your comments about MJ. I also think he might have resigned if he was told he was going to be fired. Save face for all.

It will be interesting to see where he lands.

just to clarify, by RWC finalist manager , I wasnt thinking of Ashton but the french one

Nathan my point means nothing? Why read it then?

Err not beating South Africa or NZ in his reign is a fact.

Loads you could use for and against like what?

Give me your pros and I'll tear them to pieces one by one.

Why should managing England be given to a rookie in the first place?

Some people like you Nathan can't admit that you are wrong.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15756480.stm
Martin Johnson has left england after pressure on his position post world cup!

I think it is sad to see that either Johnson or the RFU dont want to take his tenure further, I do hope that he is retained somewhere within the organisation for the good of the game. He will always be a fantastic ambassador for English and British/Irish Lions rugby for all he acheived as a player.

He also oversaw some notable successes as a manager too.

The big question though is can whoever replaces MJ do a better job and why...?

Though all coaches have their mishaps with selection and tactics that fans disagree with I have a feeling that he wasn't too blame as much as he has been given credit for. He has and always will have a very astute rugby brain. That should be utilised and praised.

Personally I am saddened to see Martin Johnson go. I thought he was making progress despite having to constantly fight the shambles of the RFU, A boss in Rob Andrews who did everything possible to undermine him and being forced to work with a coaching team he didn't want.

Squeeky Andrews has demonstrated that he is the most powerful man in the RFU with his bosses quitting left, right & centre he has no one to answer too. He has thrown those who answer to him onto the sacrificial alter to save himself from any blame and has single handedly destroyed the RFU & England set up.

The damage is done now, it's time for a clean sweep top to bottom, including Squeeky.

Rob Andrews MUST go too!

I think Eddie Jones was a good coach. He did not have the forwards to work with, and really it was a case back home of the best athletes going to league or rules, but with what he had he made a competitive side and had some very good moves. He had a way to negate the wallabies' failings and use their best traits to win a lot of matches.... well ok, his last 18 months was very very bad which is why he got the sack!!!

The boks under JW was doing ok, but he joined with JW and helped turn them in a RWC winning side.

I think with the player base of England's he will turn out a very good side. But then who wouldn't with the resources here?

whocares wrote:just to clarify, by RWC finalist manager , I wasnt thinking of Ashton but the french one

Oh baby. That would be fun, no?

Shame MJ has gone/quit/sacked etc. I would've liked him to stay and the coaching team changed. England def have improved since he took over the management but we were far too inconsistent over the past 3 yrs. The off fied "controversies" didn't help during the WC but a lot were reported way OTT imo. Whoever comes in next MUST bring his own staff in, and the RFU have to let this happen and not dictate any mandates or directives to them.
BT....I'd love to see John Mitchell come back as attack coach. Engs back play was brilliant when he was coach.

Some fans here seem incapable of separating Johnno the player from Johnno the manager.

There's a number of threads going on this already.

The big problem for England is who to get now. With the civil war in the RFU, there is a real difficulty finding sombody to replace Johnno as manager. If England go for a short term fix for the 6nations then it isnt going to be an attractive job for really world class coaches who might otherwise apply.

There is also the spectre of Sir Clive looming over any appointment after the Olympics. Whilst personally I think SCW would be a retrograde step for England there are clearly many admirers still in the RFU. At the slightest hint of failure a new coach is going to have to deal with the bring back SCW brigade.

Wales keeping Shaun Edwards wasnt so much of a shock but the fact he wasnt even contacted by the RFU with regards to his availability when he said he was open to offers is pretty damning of the paralysis at the top in Twwickenham. If the welsh also manage to poach Rowntree then that may actually shock the "old farts" into action.

Brian Ashton was and is a great coach, undermined by Wells in 2007 and disposed of digracefully by Squeeky in favour of Johnson a rookie coach with no experience. Just think what could have been achieved if Ashton had been allowed to jettison teh coaching staff that failed Johnson and implemented the ideas he had with players like Foden, Ashton, Tuilagi, Flood and Cares.

England have to sort out the war in the RFU before they can appoint anyone with enough gravitas to move the squad forward. The longer the infighting goes on the longer it will take to sort out the team.

The thing that worries me is that since 2003 England have had a few managers and all of them seem to have been undermined by Andrew. You look at the selection policy of England and countless players have been tried in different positions. This in part is due to pressure from above. If the results don´t go England´s way then a quick fix is needed which usually involves cutting a certain player from the team and bringing in another. The problem is combinations don´t work right away and an unsettled squad doesn´t exactly breed confidence. Add the captaincy woes where you seem to have stop gap figures who are senior players but not necessarily the best in their position and it´s difficult to get any development in the squad.

It seemed that last year England had turned a corner and were starting to put in some positive performances. They won this year´s 6N but you´d never know it the way you hear many people talk about MJ´s record. England did have a disappointing RWC but people are capable of correcting their mistakes. Give people a chance and they can make amends. Henry didn´t get dumped after the unceremonious exit in 2007. MJ isn´t of his coaching pedigree but given the way the team has performed and getting important wins over Australia at home and away with a 6N seems like an upward curve to me after their pretty dismal record since 2003.

I just think sometimes change is seen as the easy fix. But what coach would look at the England job there now with any interest with Andrew in his ivory tower preaching from above and waving the sword of execution at the newly appointed manager. Woodward had a pretty dismal run initially but he had enough clout to state his was a long-term plan and he had the belief and strategy to carry out that plan. Mallett or White won´t want to get involved if they perceive that they won´t have total control. The whole structure needs reorganising and a long-term strategy needs to be worked out. You can´t expect someone to come in and get results straight away. You have to build for the future and have short-term goals in place. This constant meddling from above saying how many games you need to win and by how many points is absurd.

I worry now who comes in....

I dont rate Mallet any more than Johnno....

Id rather look at

Mallender = Head Coach
West - Forwards coach
Scrum Coach - Rowntree
Gustard / Ellis - Defence Coach
Attack Coach- HHmmm...IDeas? Catt?

Aslong as the new Manager is not forced to stay with the current coaches....

Only just read this - was in the middle of drafting a memo to the RFU.

They wanted to hold a p!ss up in a nearby brewery and wanted me to walk them through it.

If Mallett has any brains (and he certainly does), then he will demand that the organisation sort its merde out internally before he comes aboard.

The one thing they should probably do now is NOT appoint anyone from 2003. We need to forget about it and move forwards. Personally I'd have stuck with MJ till the end of the 6N at least, but that's not happening so I say ditch pretty much EVERYONE and start again.

Except the RFU is in so much of a shambles they can't do that now because they are all being replaced soon anyway. Idiots.

Oh and please NOT John Kirwan......

What a shame Deano has burnt his bridges.....

Wouldn't have thought to scapegoat Johnson personally. RWC aside, England's results under Johnson have been the best since 2003: home and away wins against a SH side and a 6N title. The players/kids were the ones responsible for wrecking England's hopes in NZ, thank god the RFU is doing a fine consistent job in disciplining them

gonna miss his reactions in the managers box and the dry humour and his duelling press conferences.

I'm sad to see him go, he gave his best and deserved better, it was the players who let England down, not Johnno.

England have spent all these years developing Johnno as a coach, he falls just shy of a grand slam, goes to a World Cup, wins the first 4 games, then lose a game to France and gets the sack, he is not the only coach to lose a game to France it's nearly always 50/50.

Sorry but he really didn't deserve this at all.

Yes he did alyndavies. Sorry to burst the bubble.

The England rugby team shouldn't be somewhere for a novice to ply their trade for a few years till they get it right.

It proves that Martin Johnson is an honourable man,he was appointed on sentiment not ability.
For the role he was picked for,Head coach that he was chosen when holding NO coaching Certificates at any level.
Shows just what a lot of W***** the RFU was,in sacking Ashton and replacing him.
MJ could certainly of done a Forwards Coach job at a practical level few better.
He has taken upon himself the role of scapegoat for the RWC results,Discipline ,breachs of,Ball Gate etc.
IF he had a fault it was loyalty to players who with hindsight were past there best.
I can`t say I thought about him either as Manager or Player,BUT I RESPECTED him in the latter role.One of Englands greatest Locks,frankly after the fall out from the Ashton era.
Last year he accepted JW was no longer the answer at 10,and England did fairly well.
Two wins over Australia and a solid 6Ns win,then come RWC revert to RWC mode and Jonny.
What were your expectations realistically,a Semi exit at best in RWC truth is
ALL Coaches/Managers have been in the shadow of SCW and the 2003 team.
Sir Clive was wise enough to see post Lions 2005,England were on the slippery slope down.
WHEN a new RFU is empowered Rob Andrew should be bought to account too.
IF he had any honour he would resign himself.

We need to hire a coach with absolutly no link to bloomin 2003 the best and worst moment in english rugby. We won the world cup but boy its taken us a long time to get over it...andy robinson , martin johnson, most the coaching staff, the 2005 lions...wilkinson, tindall, moody etc etc all these guys won a world cup now move on stop reverting back to a style of play and management decisions that are 8 years old when the rest of the world has long moved on. We most certainly don't need SCW a guy who has been out of rugby that long.

Hey ill do the job......

watching live streaming on the BBC Sport.

ROB ANDREW IS A SMUG LITTLE T*RD...

And he aint going I'm afraid people :-(

beshocked wrote:The England rugby team shouldn't be somewhere for a novice to ply their trade for a few years till they get it right.

Which is why he shouldn't have been appointed - but not a valid argument for him going.

He inherited a pile of poo when he came in, including coaches (who reported to Andrew not Johnson) and players (prizes for anyone who can name the scrum halves in the 2007 RWC). His successor inherits a better squad than Johnno did. That is progress and some of that has been due to MJ.

Rob Andrew getting a pasting there. He wasn't expecting that.

Journo (after a load of Rob Andrew waffle)- "So you're not considering resigning?"

Rob Andrew - "No I'm absolutely not considering resigning"

EnglishReign wrote:Rob Andrew getting a pasting there. He wasn't expecting that.

just shows his arrogance.

beshocked wrote:Yes he did alyndavies. Sorry to burst the bubble.

The England rugby team shouldn't be somewhere for a novice to ply their trade for a few years till they get it right.

That novice won more in terms of silverware than the last two coaches before him combined, both of whom were seasoned veterans in comparison.

What bubble is there to burst? I'm personally not all that sorry to see Johnson go as I saw him as a good leader and may now rest easy knowing England aren't likely to be as formidable over the next couple of years as they could have been. Though I do feel slightly sorry for the man himself for having to be embarrassed by his players and take the fall for them when they're not man enough to do so themselves.

If any bubbles are burst it's those of the ranks of fans repeating time and time again that England were building for 2011 and now that that's been found out they're hunting around for a brand new excuse