Can we stop all the ducking garbage!!!

"It was well documented that Jones said he would go no where near mclellan as a pro" ......"If Floyd would get some nuts"..."Leonard was scared of Pryor" "Tyson avoided Lewis like the plague"..."Chicken Bowe".......and so on and so on..

I find it almost hilarious that for the right money these fighters I and you have had the privilege of seeing plus others (from America mostly) would duck anybody!!!...They've all dug deep through wars!!

What they all have in common is a drive to be the best a long with the monetary considerations......They get up for good fighters not run away!!!

Let's start respecting these guys more...they've earned our respect!!!!

No.

Agree to a certain extent, Truss, but let's not pretend as if ducking doesn't happen. Bowe-Lewis was a clear a case of ducking as you could find. Are you telling me that you don't find it a little strange how Bradley has repeatedly said he can't negotiate with Khan for a fight due to a whole variety of reasons, only to suddenly announce his next fight soon after Khan has announced his?

Some claims of ducking can be a bit fanciful, but that doesn't mean there aren't still some valid and clear cases. It's unrealistic to think that fans aren't going to comment on it when they see it, even if we do go a little over the top with it at times!

Mate go away.....You're obviously unemployed..you'd be better looking for work than irritating people..

Oh good someone worth replying to...

Chris no one is saying it doesn't go on but certain fighters are being labelled cowards when their records and fight history should be applauded...

Leonard had wars with Hearns and Duran........Jones always gave his all etc....Mayweather is a top 10 great..Bowe had wars with Holy etc...

Not right..

Now let's see if we can find Alex a job...

Got a pretty decent one right here Truss and I like it, as for the subject at hand ducking happens, people will complain, people don't enjoy seeing people taking little risk for a big reward, if thats the way you want boxing to be so be it, but not me, I'd rather constantly see the best facing the best in the sport and fights being competetive.

How many superfights have been competetive as of late? Not enough for my liking. If there weren't tougher fights out there for them I wouldn't mind but considering there are tougher fights out there for them and they don't take them I will complain until they do happen. If they don't they deserve a question mark over them.

Oh okay.....

Well, I agree with you one hundred percent that anyone calling a professional boxer, no matter who they are or what level they fight at, a 'coward' is being absolutely ridiculous. While I think that Bowe was very keen to avoid Lewis, he still showed me in the fights against Holyfield and Golota that he was a rock-hard fighting man.

As I said, there is truth in your argument when it comes to money issues. Duran vacated his WBA Light-Middleweight title when McCallum was his mandatory. Seems like a blatant duck, but when you learn that he vacated the belt to challenge for Hearns' WBC version for probably twice the money, the context changes all of a sudden. At the time, Hearns was seen as the greater force at the weight and a tougher fight (of course, noone knew quite how good McCallum would turn out to be at 154 lb at this stage).

I think the fact that fans are becoming more and more weary of the state of boxing, we are maybe quicker to point out what we perceive as 'ducking' these days. Truth is, it's always been there. The fact that so many boxing headlines have been dominanted by the Mayweather-Pacquiao debacle over the last two years has heightened the desire to point out who has been ducking who in the past.

Completely agree Chris, think we as fans have the right to complain when there is a blatant duck. However I think the more knowledgable fan takes into consideration all the other factors and works out whether there has been a real duck or not.

I think for the most part that is all that happens. Can't really complain about that in my opinion.

Only heightened as regards to trying to diminish fighters not liked by the media.....

Media does have an agenda.......the substance always seems to be in the lacking department....

Would a Warren fighter be a ducker or would Warren do the ducking...

Bowe is a chicken (for example) but Rock newman sorted out the opponent side...and the way forward.... as Butch Lewis did for Spinks..

Sometimes a fighter can be held responsible for his managements crimes as it were..

just don't like great fighters labelled without proof...

Alex you seem to be posting volumes now Chris is on here...So why the silly hit and run "No" at the start of the article in an attempt to derail my thread????

Poor stuff Mate..

So in regards to say Manny Pacqiaou it appears that Bob Arum is stopping the fight that everyone is telling to him to fight, does Manny have absoltuely no say in it?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Sometimes a fighter can be held responsible for his managements crimes as it were

Good point Truss, which sometimes gets overlooked. Dempsey not fighting Wills might be a good example of this, given how history seems to indicate that it was Kearns and Rickard who put the stoppers on it rather than Dempsey himself.

Bowe made the worst of errors by being photographed dumping his belt into the bin.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Alex you seem to be posting volumes now Chris is on here...So why the silly hit and run "No" at the start of the article in an attempt to derail my thread????

Poor stuff Mate..

Truss, get it in your head, I hit but did I run? No, I stayed and then gave my reasons, what is your problem with me?

On the old 606 I had a lot of silly immature loser-types like fightnews doing it and I have my fair share on here too...

Usually don't mind it but sometimes I'm not in the mood for wallies.....

Scotty i think that insufferable little squirt Newman thought it would be a good idea...

What an odious turd he was.....

Not a good idea...but pre-94 he beats Lewis for me..

Newman was one of the most disgusting people in boxing, with his vile rants at referee's etc. Can't believe he wasn't properly banned some of the time.

Maybe, Lewis had a lot of fundimental flaws back them but I'd still take him to dominate on the outside.

Like he did against mccall and Bruno...

right about Newman hasd small man syndrome..

Different boxers, Bruno charged at him like Mercer, Bowe would stand off him.

'Styles make fights'.

I don't think being accused of being a ducker is that tough a mantle to shoulder (boxers are exposed to much less venom than footballers for example) and the fans say it but it is the fans that pay the wages. And sometimes it is fully deserved/undisputable. However 'coward' is a totally different word and disgraceful for anyone to level it at a boxer who essentially turns up and get punched in the head all night and risks serious serious injury.

Bowe-Lewis is a good example as Bowe's ducking looks undeniable and inexcusable, and it cost the fans what could've been the biggest fight of the 90s and a legacy defining win for either fight. However to label Bowe a ducker because of it would be disgraceful - his job is to stand in front of 18st guys trying to avoid getting punched in the face (or in the case of Golota, in the nuts!), definitely him rather than me!

No no Bowe would have waited for the then inept Lewis to leave himself wide open when throwing the one-two like Mccall did...

Lewis was poorly coached then for me..

Surely there is a correlation between ducker and coward..

I think it's a fallacy that you just have to find Lewis to knock him out. Was Bowe a puncher?

Seldon ko 1...Dokes ko 1..Holyfield ko 8 before Tyson....

Certainly suggests he raps...

As regards to your fallacy.....don't take me out of context...

Just saying that Lewis had a lot of flaws more than big daddy at that time..

I'd agree we give some boxers stick but not normally without good reason.

If anybody thinks some boxers duck high profile fights regardless of the money offered they are delusional.

Saying there is no ducking in boxing is like saying there is no diving in football!

Not saying he couldn't punch but the sort of guy to take Lewis out clean?His knockout losses were not really down to being caught often.

He might get inside, and he was good once he got there. Certainly an interesting fight.

Easy to say "some".....

Sure some footballers dress up as Women at weekends!!

Names and opponents would be nice...

How many times was Hide knocked down again???

Rahman that big a puncher???? MCcall that big a puncher.???? records don't suggest it..

So I don't know what your saying...that inferior types like them find Lewis and Bowe can't..

Interesting theory!!!

I think Bowe was the more polished fighter of the two by 1992 / 1993. Similar to Lewis in a few ways but certainly had a better inside game, something Lewis hadn't really developed at that point.

However, I don't think we should underestimate the importance of a fighter's mindset. To me, Bowe was clearly a little intimidated by Lewis. His refusal to face him, but more so his strange outbursts whenever Lewis was around or mentioned, leads me to believe that in his own head, he maybe didn't believe that he could beat Lennox. I think this would have been a big factor. Lewis seemed to relish the thought of them getting it on, whereas Bowe perhaps didn't.

Still a terrible shame that this fight didn't happen. Bowe has to shoulder most of the blame though - could still have been a viable fight as late as, say, 1997 or 1998, before Bowe devoted his life to KFC. Oh, and before Golota used Bowe's nad sack as a speed bag, of course.

That was probably a poor shout, I think I was crediting you with things you didn’t say, the usual ‘get to Lewis’ glass jaw’ type stuff.

I didn’t say Bowe couldn’t win.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Surely there is a correlation between ducker and coward..

I'm not disputing it may be possible to infer a link between the two, however my point is I think this would/could be unfair and unjustified. I think Bradley ducked Khan, but I wouldn't call him a coward. I think coward is a more general statement, a character attribute that's fairly consistent (you either are a coward or you're not, I don't think you can flit between coward and hero at will), whereas ducker can be a one-off comment for one particular situation or example (e.g. Bowe-Lewis or Bradley-Khan).

see where chris is coming from..but disagree to a certain extent..one can think he's going to lose and then realise this animal isn't as good as he thought..

No one can tell me Buster really thought he'd beat Mike..he probably had a game plan and thought let's see what happens..

bowe did have Futch..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Easy to say "some".....

Sure some footballers dress up as Women at weekends!!

Names and opponents would be nice...

Well others have said some of them but without thinking too hard some examples are:

Bowe avoiding Lewis

Manny IMO will duck Floyd however make out it's Top Rank who made the decision

Bradley ducked Khan

Khan ducked Maidana - Maidana had to write to the WBA and the WBA made the fight happen

RJJ ducked Michalczewski

Chavez Jr is ducking Martinez

Sturm ducks all the other MW champs

Manny ducked Mosley the first time round

Calzaghe ducked many big fights or at least had no desire to remove the ducker 'tag' he had

These are merely my opinions.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:see where chris is coming from..but disagree to a certain extent..one can think he's going to lose and then realise this animal isn't as good as he thought..

No one can tell me Buster really thought he'd beat Mike..he probably had a game plan and thought let's see what happens..

bowe did have Futch..

Possibly true, but Douglas had a lot less to lose against Tyson than Bowe did against Lewis. Maybe Douglas believed he'd win, maybe not, but either way there would have been a lot less pressure on him than there would have been on Bowe had the Lewis fight happened.

So all those that think thiose guys ducked because of the money are delusional..by implication you suggest those guys are duckers..

People get scared with a lot less to lose...too.

I'm bored of the tread already! 'I' meaning my opinion doesn't have to line up exact with yours is that people do and will continue to duck fights due to fear of losing and money doesn't always change it.

Anyone who calls a boxer a coard obviously has a screw loose somewhere. They are the bravest of the brave for fighting for our pleasure. But ducking does happen. Mainly due to managers and promoters trying to squeeze every dime from the fighter.

Cus made Floyd duck Liston until he could duck no more. For good reason also.

Grow up Val ....

i'm asking you for specifics....instead of putting the same fighters in the same boat..

Comment or go..I don't care...

Valero's Conscience wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Easy to say "some".....

Sure some footballers dress up as Women at weekends!!

Names and opponents would be nice...

Well others have said some of them but without thinking too hard some examples are:

Bowe avoiding Lewis

Manny IMO will duck Floyd however make out it's Top Rank who made the decision

Bradley ducked Khan

Khan ducked Maidana - Maidana had to write to the WBA and the WBA made the fight happen

RJJ ducked Michalczewski

Chavez Jr is ducking Martinez

Sturm ducks all the other MW champs

Manny ducked Mosley the first time round

Calzaghe ducked many big fights or at least had no desire to remove the ducker 'tag' he had

These are merely my opinions.

I agree with what this says.

If anymore wallies come on here can the mods delete their stuff....

Don't want my thread hijacked by children..

Fellas, I've tried to give you all the ' rub of the green ' so that a bit of sprightly banter can be allowed to flow, but it's getting beyond that now. Please let's dispense with the personal stuff and simply debate the issues. The points made on either side of the debate aren't strengthened by the addition of personal jibes.

No names, no pack drill and PLEASE no comebacks, justifications or recriminations. Just, please, stop it here and now.

Thank you.

Nothing personal in asking a guy to substantiate some claims....

If his mates from the football thread want to hijack that's different..

But I appreciate your interest in keeping it clean..wind..

That's how I'd like it..

Jones ducking darius? Good grief.

I know...sad isn't it!!! But hey I forgot he was basically treated like Davidemore on the old 606...

shouldn't of bothered trying to debate......my fault.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I know...sad isn't it!!! But hey I forgot he was basically treated like Davidemore on the old 606...

shouldn't of bothered trying to debate......my fault.

You asked people to comment on your thread and I did, but you're not happy?!?

You might as well say "please post but only if you are in agreement with me"!

I said it's my opinion, he was the opponent everyone wanted Jones to face and considering he lacks lots of big names on his CV I would have thought he would have made the fight happen.

I accept another reason could be that Jones couldn't negotiate fighting him in the US and feared fighting in Germany which is understandable but this is unknown so I simply state that RJJ 'avoided' Darius.

azania wrote:Jones ducking darius? Good grief.

Damn it all we agree again? You'll be admitting that J. Johnson was an outstanding technician next. I'm converting you az, slowly but surely

Jones didn't duck D-mick. They both had reasons for the fight not being made. Jones didn't want or need to travel. He was making big paydays against the rest of his division. Nor did he fancy getting shafted by judges - and frankly - after Chisora-Helenius, can we blame him? D-Mich didn't fancy travelling stateside to make the fight.

The way the sanctioning bodies stripped D-mich to pander to Jones and HBO - now that was ridiculous.
----------------------------------------
Bradley didn't duck Khan.

It really irritates me when this myth is peddled - which is far too frequent.

Bradley has fought the consensus number 2 in the LWW division 3 times - in Witter, Holt and Alexander. This is not a man who is scared of testing himself. If Bradley had been fighting other people all the time that Khan was calling him out - I'd think the ducking calls had an argument. However - he wasn't doing that was he? He was taking legal action to remove his old promoter - and get with Arum. And why was he trying to climb into Uncle Bob's stable? He wants a super-fight with Pacquiao - one that, according to reports, has been on the cards since last March (until Manny ballsed it up by his performance against Marquez).

Is this ducking? To chase a bigger, tougher challenge whilst removing your own promoter (who, frankly, needs shooting for managing to take an excellent and likeable young fighter and have him scarce able to sell out his own front garden).

suggest ducking is a derogatory term for sticking the boot into a fighter you don't like...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:suggest ducking is a derogatory term for sticking the boot into a fighter you don't like...

Absolutely agree. Half of the "bradley-ducking-khan" brigade weren't nearly so vocal about Khan and Murry/Thaxton at LW.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:Jones ducking darius? Good grief.

Damn it all we agree again? You'll be admitting that J. Johnson was an outstanding technician next. I'm converting you az, slowly but surely

Jones didn't duck D-mick. They both had reasons for the fight not being made. Jones didn't want or need to travel. He was making big paydays against the rest of his division. Nor did he fancy getting shafted by judges - and frankly - after Chisora-Helenius, can we blame him? D-Mich didn't fancy travelling stateside to make the fight.

The way the sanctioning bodies stripped D-mich to pander to Jones and HBO - now that was ridiculous.

If I ever say Rocky is semi decent then I'm fully converted. But you know that will never happen.