Khan again

From a different angle this time.

I believe that in order to be a good inside fighter, it can be trained into you. At least the basics can be. But you have to have a talent for it. Its pretty obvious Khan doesn't have the talent or the skill to be a decent inside fighter or he would have shown it in his last fight. No shame in that as he joins elite fighters in Ali and Lewis who were poor inside fighters....(add Wlad to that)

My question is, should Khan therefore develop into a rangy fighter and fights to his strength which are hand and foot speed and a good jab when he plants his feet. If he does, its my opinion that to do that, he should go to a trainer who is best suited to bring the best out of him. I dont believe Roach is the man for that. He gets a lot of credit for Manny. But Manny is a very different fighter to Khan.

I believe Khan should go to Steward who can fully maximise his strengths and vastly improve his abilities. Look at what Manny did to Lennox. Ignore Hearns, but look at guys like Jimmy Paul, Hilmer Kenty, McCrory and others who were skilled with their jab, excellent straight punchers and knew how to control range and utilise that particular strength in rangy boxers.

I believe Khan is wasted with Roach.

Thoughts

My view on it is Khan has good raw talent, speed and skills but isnt really tactically all that great or smart.

Ive often seen his jab described as world class. Partly I think. Its a good quick scoring jab that works well if given room as a weapon but defensively its really much use in the way of a dominating kind of controlling jab that Holmes or Wlad employs. I cant see Khan ever having the reach advantage or power to dominate adopt a Steward kind of jab. I think it advantage is in its speed and accuracy rather than power or control. I think if he tried to work behind the jab he would get walked down too easily so I would prefer to see him use the ring more and learn to fight off the ropes a bit better and to stay out of trouble.

I think it has to be determined whether cans defensive failing are a lack of tactical awareness, machoism or poor ringcraft - or if he just lacks the talent to be successful in that regard.

For whichever reason, he just isnt elusive enough. For a guy with his handspeed and agility, hes actual very easy to hit. I would agree with Warren that alot of work needs to be done on his overall defensive game. everything from staying on the outside, counter punching, fighting off the ropes, being able to fight on the inside - all of this needs working on. Because he has natural quickness my instinct would be to work on just keeping him elusive on the outside boxing to instructions and using his speed advantage which he will have over all but the quickest opponents.

Jab wise I dont see him having the power, physicality or ringcraft to dominate a fight behind the jab and its maybe not making the best of fast hands and combination punching which are natural assets.

The reason why he gets walked down is because he doesn't plant his feet when throwing the jab. When he plants his feet he is very effective...or more effective. He is easily walked down because he basically runs backwards pushing out weak shots for self defence or preservation.

Manny would be a better trainer who can work on his flaws you raised. But for me the jab is the most effective weapon in a boxers arsenal. Manny changed Lewis's jab and made it more of a potent weapon as opposed to the outstretches arm type of jab he had under Pep.

Lewis had 240 lbs of weight behind his. Khan will have at most 147. He does need to plant his feet and has done sometimes but I think Roach has less faith in Khans chin than Khan does himself so he teaches him to run. Manny seems to use his weight effectively when throwing - I don't think Roach wants to risk Khan in a similar way.

ShahenshahG wrote:Lewis had 240 lbs of weight behind his. Khan will have at most 147. He does need to plant his feet and has done sometimes but I think Roach has less faith in Khans chin than Khan does himself so he teaches him to run. Manny seems to use his weight effectively when throwing - I don't think Roach wants to risk Khan in a similar way.

There were guys like Jimmy Paul, Oba Carr, Kenty and many others from the kronk production line. All possessed one thing. Excellent jabs.

azania wrote:The reason why he gets walked down is because he doesn't plant his feet when throwing the jab. When he plants his feet he is very effective...or more effective. He is easily walked down because he basically runs backwards pushing out weak shots for self defence or preservation.

Manny would be a better trainer who can work on his flaws you raised. But for me the jab is the most effective weapon in a boxers arsenal. Manny changed Lewis's jab and made it more of a potent weapon as opposed to the outstretches arm type of jab he had under Pep.

Yeah but Lewis had a freakish reach and massive physical prescence. Wlad is similar so and both guys jabs can really sting.

Khan only has average enough reach for a LWW/WW despite being lanky enough and he doesnt have the power or physicality of say Hearns for example.

I think from what we have seen in his fights with Judah, Malignaggi and Kotelnik - the guy is very good at what he does well. But its also obvious he cant handle pressure well so thats what he needs to work on. Do you change all the things he does well to remould him as a jabber? Id be inclined to think thats too wholesale because his ambush style and handspeed is actually very effective and I wouldnt want to take that away.

Its obvious where his problem is, but I dont think its obvious why. Did Petersons tactics catch them out? Did Khan willingly opt to fight the way he did? Does Khan have the natural tactical awareness and adaptability to fight differently? Without seeing him day in day out in the gym its hard to say. But I think he needs to learn to impose his style on these kind of fighters and to hit and move better. Hes too easily cornered, and when he is cornered hes very vunerable.

Offensively I think he fine so I wouldnt like to tamper with that, I would just try and determine the reasons hes struggling defensively and try and work on them.

My hunch is that Khan lacks a certain cool head and maturity in the ring and hasnt developed great ring awareness.

When hes on the defensive and a guy is in close he seems to get a bit scrambled and paicky. He shells up, retreats to the ropes and kind of spends most of his time trying to convince everyone hes not hurt or shipping damage. Theres no cool head which is looking for countering opportunities or looking to get out of trouble. Its more like panic stations and an adrenaline rush. There needs to be more focus.

Id like to see him work on his counter more. He has fast hands so when guys are trying to pressure him there the opportunity to pick them off, and to hit and move. But Khan will either hit and not move, or move and not hit when hes being backed up. The result is that hes kind of being chased around the ring as opposed to boxing from the outside and when your being chased your not really scoring anything.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:The reason why he gets walked down is because he doesn't plant his feet when throwing the jab. When he plants his feet he is very effective...or more effective. He is easily walked down because he basically runs backwards pushing out weak shots for self defence or preservation.

Manny would be a better trainer who can work on his flaws you raised. But for me the jab is the most effective weapon in a boxers arsenal. Manny changed Lewis's jab and made it more of a potent weapon as opposed to the outstretches arm type of jab he had under Pep.

Yeah but Lewis had a freakish reach and massive physical prescence. Wlad is similar so and both guys jabs can really sting.

Khan only has average enough reach for a LWW/WW despite being lanky enough and he doesnt have the power or physicality of say Hearns for example.

I think from what we have seen in his fights with Judah, Malignaggi and Kotelnik - the guy is very good at what he does well. But its also obvious he cant handle pressure well so thats what he needs to work on. Do you change all the things he does well to remould him as a jabber? Id be inclined to think thats too wholesale because his ambush style and handspeed is actually very effective and I wouldnt want to take that away.

Its obvious where his problem is, but I dont think its obvious why. Did Petersons tactics catch them out? Did Khan willingly opt to fight the way he did? Does Khan have the natural tactical awareness and adaptability to fight differently? Without seeing him day in day out in the gym its hard to say. But I think he needs to learn to impose his style on these kind of fighters and to hit and move better. Hes too easily cornered, and when he is cornered hes very vunerable.

Offensively I think he fine so I wouldnt like to tamper with that, I would just try and determine the reasons hes struggling defensively and try and work on them.

Not all knonk fighters had extra long arms. One thing they developed was the ability to impose their jabs and throw it with snap and timing. Lewis' timing improved as time went buy. Tyson didn't have the longest reach but he had a very good jab.

Khan is not a physically weak fighter. Its the way he fights that gives the impression of beig weak. I dont think Khan has sufficient confidence of boxing intelligence yet to match his ability.

I think his offence can be improves a great deal given the right tactics and training.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:The reason why he gets walked down is because he doesn't plant his feet when throwing the jab. When he plants his feet he is very effective...or more effective. He is easily walked down because he basically runs backwards pushing out weak shots for self defence or preservation.

Manny would be a better trainer who can work on his flaws you raised. But for me the jab is the most effective weapon in a boxers arsenal. Manny changed Lewis's jab and made it more of a potent weapon as opposed to the outstretches arm type of jab he had under Pep.

Yeah but Lewis had a freakish reach and massive physical prescence. Wlad is similar so and both guys jabs can really sting.

Khan only has average enough reach for a LWW/WW despite being lanky enough and he doesnt have the power or physicality of say Hearns for example.

I think from what we have seen in his fights with Judah, Malignaggi and Kotelnik - the guy is very good at what he does well. But its also obvious he cant handle pressure well so thats what he needs to work on. Do you change all the things he does well to remould him as a jabber? Id be inclined to think thats too wholesale because his ambush style and handspeed is actually very effective and I wouldnt want to take that away.

Its obvious where his problem is, but I dont think its obvious why. Did Petersons tactics catch them out? Did Khan willingly opt to fight the way he did? Does Khan have the natural tactical awareness and adaptability to fight differently? Without seeing him day in day out in the gym its hard to say. But I think he needs to learn to impose his style on these kind of fighters and to hit and move better. Hes too easily cornered, and when he is cornered hes very vunerable.

Offensively I think he fine so I wouldnt like to tamper with that, I would just try and determine the reasons hes struggling defensively and try and work on them.

Not all knonk fighters had extra long arms. One thing they developed was the ability to impose their jabs and throw it with snap and timing. Lewis' timing improved as time went buy. Tyson didn't have the longest reach but he had a very good jab.

Khan is not a physically weak fighter. Its the way he fights that gives the impression of beig weak. I dont think Khan has sufficient confidence of boxing intelligence yet to match his ability.

I think his offence can be improves a great deal given the right tactics and training.

No but long reach is a definate plus as is heavy hands and Khan doesnt neccessarily have either. Personally I dont like the idea of developing Khans game primarily around the jab as I think it neglects many of his strengths elsewhere and I dont think it solves his problems. I think his jab now is decent if he moved with it a bit more. Jab, move, short bursts and the get out of range.

His problem is fighting under pressure, maintaining distance, fighting up close. I dont think hes ever going to be a good inside fighter as he not the most physical and its just uncomfortable to him. So while I would try and improve his competance there, my emphasis would be on trying to avoid those situations all together through better use of movement and counter punching.

His natural speed combined with modest strength and physicality would make him a hit and move and ambush style fighter for me. He has most of that already going forward its when hes on the back foot hes very vunerable.

More lateral movement and better use of the ring, picking ones moments to attack, greater propensity to hit and move, a greater eye for counter punch opportunities - these would be areas I would look at because he has the speed and agility to avail of them. It may just be he doesnt have the head to.

Roach has rounded him well enough and Khan has improved but there are three things a fighter can do when being walked down and that is...

1 - Run
2- Tie your man up
3 - fight your way out

Rope a dope is not suicide.

Khan tends to cover up, take a few and then tie his man up until the ref breaks them up. Roach should work on that as Khan has a great jab and great combinations.

If I can advise 1 fight to learn from it would be Chavez v Randell 1.
Chavez being the ATG walker downer had trouble all night cornering his man because Randell would let fly very quick combos. Great example imo of what Khan can learn from.

For me the jab is the most effective weapon. Everything is set up from there. I recall boxers from the 1980s like Greg Richardson, Tysone Crawley and Marc Johnson who all had superb jabs and not especially long reaches. Also they were not KO punchers. Crawley got beat up by Bramble but mainly due to him being walked down and punished. He had great speed but only 3 kos on his ledger.

His jab is decent, but I remember thinking how much better it could be and how more effective it can be.

Any jab can be walked down and Khans jab aint like Holmes but it is imo a great jab as 2 or 3 punches often follow. I have thought what Steward could do with Khan and I think he may tend to work more on his defence.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Any jab can be walked down and Khans jab aint like Holmes but it is imo a great jab as 2 or 3 punches often follow. I have thought what Steward could do with Khan and I think he may tend to work more on his defence.

Thats just nonsense. Not any jab can be walked down and it doesn't have to be like Holmes or Hearns. If you're on the recieving end of jabs it gets frustrating and you become prone to mistakes as you take more risks. A jab is like a can opener buth offensively and defensively essential.

Nonsense?

Have you been in a ring? Boxing has evolved over many, many years there are ways of closing down jabs. Frazier walked down Ali's jab 1 of the greatest ever, Norton timed Ali's jab as it would come in 1 then 2 1 then 2 and managed Ali all night in both fights.

I agree the jab is very effective like Wlads but sooner or later you will be backed up against the ropes and what use is the jab then?

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Nonsense?

Have you been in a ring? Boxing has evolved over many, many years there are ways of closing down jabs. Frazier walked down Ali's jab 1 of the greatest ever, Norton timed Ali's jab as it would come in 1 then 2 1 then 2 and managed Ali all night in both fights.

I agree the jab is very effective like Wlads but sooner or later you will be backed up against the ropes and what use is the jab then?

Yes I have been in the ring. By your response its evident that you have never been in the ring or if you have it wasn't a very successfu venture.

So take away Ali's jab and what do you have?l

Well I don't know what you was taught when confronted by a stiff, frustrating jab, give up maybe?

On the other hand I was taught to faint, roll, counter jab and much more in order to get inside the jab. I never said the jab was not important but there are ways of walking down a stiff jab. Ask anyone on this forum and they will say the same.

As for Ali well if you take away his jab then is is not even half the fighter he was. Bit of a silly question.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Well I don't know what you was taught when confronted by a stiff, frustrating jab, give up maybe?

On the other hand I was taught to faint, roll, counter jab and much more in order to get inside the jab. I never said the jab was not important but there are ways of walking down a stiff jab. Ask anyone on this forum and they will say the same.

As for Ali well if you take away his jab then is is not even half the fighter he was. Bit of a silly question.

Well done. You realise that the jab is the most important weapon in a boxer's arsenal. So what are you arguing about?

I think your making development an elite level jab sound a bit easier than it might be here!

Lewis and Wlad were natural jabbers anyway and had ideal physical traits for it that I dont think Khan has. Steward just developed the jab more and structured them around it more. Hearns he had at a very young age and again had a good frame for it.

Khan has his own style now. Ofensively theres not a whole lot wrong with him and making radical changes to his style might not be for the best.

He doesnt have the attributes or natural style to maintain a dominating jab that serves as both a defensive and offensive weapon - like Wlad, Holmes, Lewis, Liston in my view.

The other argument is to make him more of a jab and mover like Ali which is ok but I dont see it tackling the problem. He can score well from the outside with his jab - he does that at the moment anyway. But its still inviting pressure onto him and when hes under pressure I dont really see why the jab is going to save him - which I think is the point ONETWO was making. He could utilise his jab more, develop more by all means but I dont think its addressing the bigger issue of how he handles fighting under pressure or being backed up because I cant ever see Khan having the kind of jab you can hold the centre of the ring with and if he tries that I think he gets into alot of trouble.

Im not arguing lol but responding to the question posed in the article, remember, about Khan! What are you arguing about??????

manos de piedra wrote:I think your making development an elite level jab sound a bit easier than it might be here!

Lewis and Wlad were natural jabbers anyway and had ideal physical traits for it that I dont think Khan has. Steward just developed the jab more and structured them around it more. Hearns he had at a very young age and again had a good frame for it.

Khan has his own style now. Ofensively theres not a whole lot wrong with him and making radical changes to his style might not be for the best.

He doesnt have the attributes or natural style to maintain a dominating jab that serves as both a defensive and offensive weapon - like Wlad, Holmes, Lewis, Liston in my view.

The other argument is to make him more of a jab and mover like Ali which is ok but I dont see it tackling the problem. He can score well from the outside with his jab - he does that at the moment anyway. But its still inviting pressure onto him and when hes under pressure I dont really see why the jab is going to save him - which I think is the point ONETWO was making. He could utilise his jab more, develop more by all means but I dont think its addressing the bigger issue of how he handles fighting under pressure or being backed up because I cant ever see Khan having the kind of jab you can hold the centre of the ring with and if he tries that I think he gets into alot of trouble.

manos that is what I am getting at. Khan does have a good jab but as you say he is most successful on the outside or centre of the ring if you will. As good as his jab is it still gets walked down and that is where problems arise. I mentioned Chavez v Randall 1 as an example of what Roach can do with Khan. Whenever he is backed up release fast combos and get out of there. I think you need to be an elite athlete to pulls it of and with Ariza its possible.,

manos de piedra wrote:I think your making development an elite level jab sound a bit easier than it might be here!

Lewis and Wlad were natural jabbers anyway and had ideal physical traits for it that I dont think Khan has. Steward just developed the jab more and structured them around it more. Hearns he had at a very young age and again had a good frame for it.

Khan has his own style now. Ofensively theres not a whole lot wrong with him and making radical changes to his style might not be for the best.

He doesnt have the attributes or natural style to maintain a dominating jab that serves as both a defensive and offensive weapon - like Wlad, Holmes, Lewis, Liston in my view.

The other argument is to make him more of a jab and mover like Ali which is ok but I dont see it tackling the problem. He can score well from the outside with his jab - he does that at the moment anyway. But its still inviting pressure onto him and when hes under pressure I dont really see why the jab is going to save him - which I think is the point ONETWO was making. He could utilise his jab more, develop more by all means but I dont think its addressing the bigger issue of how he handles fighting under pressure or being backed up because I cant ever see Khan having the kind of jab you can hold the centre of the ring with and if he tries that I think he gets into alot of trouble.

manos that is what I am getting at. Khan does have a good jab but as you say he is most successful on the outside or centre of the ring if you will. As good as his jab is it still gets walked down and that is where problems arise. I mentioned Chavez v Randall 1 as an example of what Roach can do with Khan. Whenever he is backed up release fast combos and get out of there. I think you need to be an elite athlete to pulls it of and with Ariza its possible.,

manos de piedra wrote:I think your making development an elite level jab sound a bit easier than it might be here!

Lewis and Wlad were natural jabbers anyway and had ideal physical traits for it that I dont think Khan has. Steward just developed the jab more and structured them around it more. Hearns he had at a very young age and again had a good frame for it.

Khan has his own style now. Ofensively theres not a whole lot wrong with him and making radical changes to his style might not be for the best.

He doesnt have the attributes or natural style to maintain a dominating jab that serves as both a defensive and offensive weapon - like Wlad, Holmes, Lewis, Liston in my view.

The other argument is to make him more of a jab and mover like Ali which is ok but I dont see it tackling the problem. He can score well from the outside with his jab - he does that at the moment anyway. But its still inviting pressure onto him and when hes under pressure I dont really see why the jab is going to save him - which I think is the point ONETWO was making. He could utilise his jab more, develop more by all means but I dont think its addressing the bigger issue of how he handles fighting under pressure or being backed up because I cant ever see Khan having the kind of jab you can hold the centre of the ring with and if he tries that I think he gets into alot of trouble.

If you look at Khan's amateur fights and especially that farce against Kindelan before he turned pro, my impression that he had the potential to have a very good jab. I'm not saying elite level, but far superior than it is now. His style hasn't changes much from the amateur days. In fact I'd say that he fights in an amateurish manner ie like an ameteur boxer. Hit and run and hoping that the volume will sway judges. I believe he has to learn pro mannerisms. Yes his inside game has to be improved greately. But ALi didn't have an inside game. He simply tied his opponents up all too often..

Guys like those from kronk were experts at starting their offense from the jab without rushing in to get into hitting range. They developed the technique of shortening their punches when close. I always get the impression that Khan needs space to operate well.

Also he often appears off balance and too quick to get on his bike. He has to learn to plant his feet and let his punches go. He has incredible speed and if he did that it would be a bigger deterrant for guys to walk him down as Maidana and AP did.

Of course a jab can be walked down or bypassed. Thats why the best fights are always the boxer vs the slugger/swarmer. Opposits makes for a better spectacle. The jab isn;t an invincible weapon.

I recall watching the Watson Benn fight. Michael controlled the fight from R1 with his jab. After the fight when intervioewed he was asked what won it for him. His response was holdng his left hand and stating that it was the jab.

I think at the gym they should cut a ring off to quarter size so that there is no place to back up to and he has to develop an inside game of some sort, at the moment it just seems absolutely foreign to him and because of that he has no confidence there and just panics. I think that just having something in his arsenal up close other than hold, push or cover up badly and get hit would help him so much because it wouldn't make him panic whenever someone gets close to him. A cooler head would let him look for counters much better and I think he would carry his power more into the late rounds if he could calm down and pick his shots more rather than just flailing arm punches late in fights.

bellchees wrote:I think at the gym they should cut a ring off to quarter size so that there is no place to back up to and he has to develop an inside game of some sort, at the moment it just seems absolutely foreign to him and because of that he has no confidence there and just panics. I think that just having something in his arsenal up close other than hold, push or cover up badly and get hit would help him so much because it wouldn't make him panic whenever someone gets close to him. A cooler head would let him look for counters much better and I think he would carry his power more into the late rounds if he could calm down and pick his shots more rather than just flailing arm punches late in fights.

Good point. A better inside game needs to be developed. I'm not talking about a root and branch shange to his technique, but talent alone can take you so far and I believe that his talent alone has taken him as far as he can go.

I dont recommend a rematch immediately also. Change trainers, have a warm up match and go for a belt. He is not like Alvarez where he's a champ but a work in progress. Khan is established and others know his name as a legit champion.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
On the other hand I was taught to faint

Perhaps you could oblige us all by doing it now, then.

Unless, of course, you meant ' feint.'

On the other hand I was taught to faint

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oaeEfxkU5Y

HumanWindmill wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
On the other hand I was taught to faint

Perhaps you could oblige us all by doing it now, then.

Unless, of course, you meant ' feint.'

I was taught to do both. I would faint in order to draw my opponent in and make him concerned with my well being and when he was close enough BOOM! left hook goodnight god bless.

Nice comeback, ONETWO. Hats off, mate.

Most boxers struggle getting power behind shots on the back foot, only ONETWO can generate KO power from flat on his back after fainting.

bellchees wrote:Most boxers struggle getting power behind shots on the back foot, only ONETWO can generate KO power from flat on his back after fainting.

Almost One Bomb esque.......

Almost.......