Who wins and why - Prime Calzaghe vs Andre Ward (Neutral Venue)?

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Ward had too much speed for Froch, but how would he manage against a peak Joe Calzaghe?

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I can see Ward winning, only if Calzaghe can't hit him, which I doubt. Ward was very tired at the end of the fight, calzaghe's work rate would have him in big trouble in my opinion. Ward said Froch was too slow and he did get caught a bit, just look at his face. Calzaghe is not slow at all.

Dont agree at all Ghosty i watched that fight with about 10 other big boxing fans and 1 person had it a draw all the rest including me had Hopkins a clear winner. It was only after the verdict was read that people started seeing a fantastic performance from Calzaghe that we all missed when the fight was live. Watch the fight again and be honest because i think you will struggle to give more than 4 rounds clear to Calzaghe out of the 12.

4 rounds against Hopkins? Now you are just being silly.....

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The suggestion of many on here does seem to be that Ward would win based on beating Kessler more easily.

Just hogey from what I have read.

oxring wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:To try and downplay this under the styles makes fight umbrella is a bit unreasonable. Stylewise Ward is a far tougher prospect than the much more limited and one dimensional Kessler is. The fact Ward dispatched Kessler more impressively than Calzaghe did should not be underestimated.

Its not unreasonable - its frankly true, Certainly - we shouldn't downplay the Kessler win for Ward - and I haven't. However - he did deserve a points deduction in that fight - and his head did break Kessler's trochlea - meaning he still gets double vision to this day.

Ward was simply quicker than Kessler throughout the fight - so its not as simple as Ward butted and thus won.

To use Kessler as evidence for Calzaghe losing to Ward is a bit disingenuous. It wasn't the same Kessler both faced, for a start and as mentioned before - styles make fights. That doesn't downplay the Kessler win for Ward.

You constantly cite using the same degree of analysis over different fighters careers - so why is this case any different? If we're hearing about a "43 year old Hopkins" and a lucky SD - then we're entitled to use the same criticism for the Ward-Kessler fight. Pointing out that Kessler was largely inactive coming into the tournament and hadn't looked the same since destroying Beyer all those years ago.

A point a lot of people forget - Kesslers best was Calzaghe I reckon and after that he stayed locked in a dispute with his promoter who didn't dare put him in with a big fighter again - robbing him of the fights the acclaim his performance against Calzaghe earned him. Calzaghes tendency to up a gear would see Ward narrowly beaten especially in the later rounds where i cant see him winning even one. Slick as ward is he fought an excellent fight but against Froch who didnt force the issue with half the speed or skill Calzaghe would. Chris pointed out his tendency to coast in some rounds - how will he grab that rest against Calzaghe? Hopkins used every ounce of his nous to catch a break and made every punch count but he was still beaten and he is as yet superior to Ward in the thinking department.

Watched the Calzaghe and Hopkins fight a few times and have always ended with the same scorecard of 115-112, by no means could anyone say it was a comprehensive Hopkins win because it wasn't.

shah

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The suggestion of many on here does seem to be that Ward would win based on beating Kessler more easily.

Just hogey from what I have read.

Not sure where that has come from when i have based 90% of what i have been saying around Hopkins outboxing Calzaghe and barely mentioned Kessler since my opening posts.

Lets not get into a discussion about Hopkins Calzaghe because it usually gets a bit heated....

Hopkins outboxing Calzaghe resulted in him losing the fight, a fight the american tv analysts thought he lost, they are the facts here Calzaghe won and many feel he deserved to do so.

hogey wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The suggestion of many on here does seem to be that Ward would win based on beating Kessler more easily.

Just hogey from what I have read.

Not sure where that has come from when i have based 90% of what i have been saying around Hopkins outboxing Calzaghe and barely mentioned Kessler since my opening posts.

Im just saying the post you made in relation to the respective Kessler fights with Ward and Calzaghe is the only one that I could have construed as using that fight to suggest Ward beat Kessler. I know you made other points on it though. Personally I dont really think there has been a great suggestion that just because Ward beat Kessler more decisively that it means he beats Calzaghe.

Anyway we will never get the answer to this question so i will just say its been good debating it with such knowledgable people and its topics like this that make boxing the greatest sport in the world to talk about.

ShahenshahG wrote:

oxring wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:To try and downplay this under the styles makes fight umbrella is a bit unreasonable. Stylewise Ward is a far tougher prospect than the much more limited and one dimensional Kessler is. The fact Ward dispatched Kessler more impressively than Calzaghe did should not be underestimated.

Its not unreasonable - its frankly true, Certainly - we shouldn't downplay the Kessler win for Ward - and I haven't. However - he did deserve a points deduction in that fight - and his head did break Kessler's trochlea - meaning he still gets double vision to this day.

Ward was simply quicker than Kessler throughout the fight - so its not as simple as Ward butted and thus won.

To use Kessler as evidence for Calzaghe losing to Ward is a bit disingenuous. It wasn't the same Kessler both faced, for a start and as mentioned before - styles make fights. That doesn't downplay the Kessler win for Ward.

You constantly cite using the same degree of analysis over different fighters careers - so why is this case any different? If we're hearing about a "43 year old Hopkins" and a lucky SD - then we're entitled to use the same criticism for the Ward-Kessler fight. Pointing out that Kessler was largely inactive coming into the tournament and hadn't looked the same since destroying Beyer all those years ago.

A point a lot of people forget - Kesslers best was Calzaghe I reckon and after that he stayed locked in a dispute with his promoter who didn't dare put him in with a big fighter again - robbing him of the fights the acclaim his performance against Calzaghe earned him. Calzaghes tendency to up a gear would see Ward narrowly beaten especially in the later rounds where i cant see him winning even one. Slick as ward is he fought an excellent fight but against Froch who didnt force the issue with half the speed or skill Calzaghe would. Chris pointed out his tendency to coast in some rounds - how will he grab that rest against Calzaghe? Hopkins used every ounce of his nous to catch a break and made every punch count but he was still beaten and he is as yet superior to Ward in the thinking department.

Yet he would go on to score proabably his biggest win of his career afterwards in beating Froch. And look at Ward. His first really big fight in onky his 4th year as pro.

Calzaghe got huge credit for beating Kessler. Ward by comparison got far less. Had Kessler faded off into the wilderness then there might be some substance to it but he followed that loss up with the biggest win of his career so I dont see there being any suggestion he was significantly outside of his best. You could even argue the experience he got fighting abraod against someone like Calzaghe actually helped him.

Calzaghe UD by about 4 rounds or so, I'd say. Ward is elusive but Joe's style is the perfect antidote to that, fast flurries and relentless work rate.

manos de piedra wrote:You could even argue the experience he got fighting abraod against someone like Calzaghe actually helped him.

One could argue that - but one would be extremely foolhardy to do so.

Re: Ward>Kessler & Calzaghe>Kessler - apologies - your post followed on from one of Hogey's, and I do believe I tarred you with the same brush (by the implication of your post).

Watching a young Kessler in his early days - he hasn't been as good post-layoff. This isn't a case of Calzaghe "ending" a fighters career (before I get accused of perpetrating a baseless accusation) but rather one of damned misfortune removing the best years of a talents career from us. Even the bbc commentators during Froch-Kessler were commenting on how Kessler wasn't what he once was. He had enough in him down the stretch to take the Froch fight - but he'd slowed down a bit. He had fantastic handspeed and power - once, since layoff he's had more of a tendency to push his punches out rather than put them through the target. So no, I don't think the layoff has helped him too much. His lateral movement isn't quite as good either - he seems to have lost a step in some ways.

All being said - it was still a tremendous performance from Ward.

And all being said, it tells us nothing about the likely outcome of a Ward-Calzaghe fight. In the same way as Reid didn't predict the outcome of CalzagheLacy and Taylor didn't predict the outcome of Pavlik-Hoppo.

oxring wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:You could even argue the experience he got fighting abraod against someone like Calzaghe actually helped him.

One could argue that - but one would be extremely foolhardy to do so.

Re: Ward>Kessler & Calzaghe>Kessler - apologies - your post followed on from one of Hogey's, and I do believe I tarred you with the same brush (by the implication of your post).

Watching a young Kessler in his early days - he hasn't been as good post-layoff. This isn't a case of Calzaghe "ending" a fighters career - but even the bbc commentators during Froch-Kessler were commenting on how Kessler wasn't what he once was. He had enough in him down the stretch - but he'd slowed down a bit. He had fantastic handspeed and power - once, since layoff he's had more of a tendency to push his punches out rather than put them through the target. So no, I don't think the layoff has helped him too much.

All being said - it was still a tremendous performance from Ward.

And all being said, it tells us nothing about the likely outcome of a Ward-Calzaghe fight. In the same way as Reid didn't predict the outcome of CalzagheLacy and Taylor didn't predict the outcome of Pavlik-Hoppo.

Why is it foolhardy to say so if we are getting into nitpicking? Kesslers younger days coincided with inferior opposition. He lost to Calzaghe, then came back win a few fight pretty handily before being outclassed by Ward. He then went on to earn the best win of his career against Froch. I dont see how there can be any real suggestion the Kessler that fought Ward was on the slide or significantly worse than Calzaghe. The fact he beat Froch afterwards indicates he was still a top level operator.

It was going to take an elite fighter to beat Kessler (and Froch) as handily as Ward did. I dont think Calzaghe did or would have done as impressive fashion. Does this mean Ward automatically beats Calzaghe? No, not for me. I think its very close. But it does indicate to me that in Ward we are talking about a very special and multi versed fighter. Saying it tells us nothing about the outcome of a Calzaghe fight is not corrct for me because on the most basic level it shows the class and level of figter you are dealing with and the displays he put in indicates a fighter with a great inside game and physically very strong (great medicine for shutting down workrate), a fighter thats equally comfortable fight southpaw or orthadox (an advantage against Calzaghe in terms f getting inside a jab), a fighter who has speed and is adaptable with strong all round game, ( can adjust against Calzaghe and has multiple plans) and a fighter that lacks concussive power (unlikely to be able to stop Calzaghe).

So while the whole styles makes fights and fighter x beats y beats z beats x argument can be used to show that the outcome is not a certainty, it is also far from completely irrelevant and likely to tell us nothing. We can tell alot from the fights, even if the result will always remain a mystery.

Not so sure I agree there, Manos. For me Joe would beat Froch 120-108, and that is something I thought long before last night. The style is just all wrong and I think he would have beaten him more comprehensively than Andre did.

Blah blah lets all look at boxrec and make an opinion as per usual, from watching Kessler fight Beyer, Calzaghe, Ward and Froch I come to the conclusion that he was at his best when taking Beyer apart. Beating Froch is all well and good but it overlooks the performances of his previous fights, he looked better against Calzaghe losing than he did against Froch winning and Ward losing.

He appeared to have lost some handspeed, a fair bit of purchase behind his punches and his general timing seemed off. Ignoring the results of his fights he has seemed to have declined since Calzaghe but obviously because he's not an old man people feel inclined to overlook it. It's not something people like to admit but the headbutts didn't change the result but they certainly changed the way the fight would pan out.

Two reasons why despite being a clearer winner over Kessler the win is less impressive and not all that relevant to a potential Calzaghe match up.

oxring wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:You could even argue the experience he got fighting abraod against someone like Calzaghe actually helped him.

One could argue that - but one would be extremely foolhardy to do so.

Re: Ward>Kessler & Calzaghe>Kessler - apologies - your post followed on from one of Hogey's, and I do believe I tarred you with the same brush (by the implication of your post).

Watching a young Kessler in his early days - he hasn't been as good post-layoff. This isn't a case of Calzaghe "ending" a fighters career (before I get accused of perpetrating a baseless accusation) but rather one of damned misfortune removing the best years of a talents career from us. Even the bbc commentators during Froch-Kessler were commenting on how Kessler wasn't what he once was. He had enough in him down the stretch to take the Froch fight - but he'd slowed down a bit. He had fantastic handspeed and power - once, since layoff he's had more of a tendency to push his punches out rather than put them through the target. So no, I don't think the layoff has helped him too much. His lateral movement isn't quite as good either - he seems to have lost a step in some ways.

All being said - it was still a tremendous performance from Ward.

And all being said, it tells us nothing about the likely outcome of a Ward-Calzaghe fight. In the same way as Reid didn't predict the outcome of CalzagheLacy and Taylor didn't predict the outcome of Pavlik-Hoppo.

Good grief. This is the double standards I'm referring to. Kessler came back after his loss to JC and scored some significant wins. He lost to Ward and still beat Froch who was touted as one of UK's ATG if he beat Ward. Now Kessler was o the slide when losing to Ward.

This is too much. Different rules apply to different boxers it seems.

Fists of Fury wrote:Not so sure I agree there, Manos. For me Joe would beat Froch 120-108, and that is something I thought long before last night. The style is just all wrong and I think he would have beaten him more comprehensively than Andre did.

120-108? Really?

Calzaghe was a great fighter but Froch is surely no less of an opponent than Brewer, Kessler, Bika, Reid etc even guys like Salem managed to win a round or two against him.

I would envisage a fight with Froch going similar enough to the Kessler one and Calzaghes speed and engine giving him a win along the 116-112 margins. Cant see him shutting Froch out or being able to boss him like Ward though.

He wouldn't need to boss him, just do what he always did, keep a high work rate and pressure him non stop, thus far his skills are far more proven and adaptable than those of Wards.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:He wouldn't need to boss him, just do what he always did, keep a high work rate and pressure him non stop, thus far his skills are far more proven and adaptable than those of Wards.

Not for me. I think Ward is a more complete fighter.

I think Calzaghe would beat Froch, just not by shut out.

I see the stock of JC is rising fast in order to trash Ward. Ward beats JC my a close but clear margin. JC may have the edge in hand speed but Ward has a better skill set, technique, variety of punches and boxing intelligence. Ward wins 9/10 times.

All on the hype train for Andre Ward I see, he's good very good don't get me wrong but he's by no means a more complete fighter, the style of fighters he's being facing haven't been able to showcase that, were he able to outbox the likes of Dawson or Hopkins I may agree but it seems very unlikely.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:All on the hype train for Andre Ward I see, he's good very good don't get me wrong but he's by no means a more complete fighter, the style of fighters he's being facing haven't been able to showcase that, were he able to outbox the likes of Dawson or Hopkins I may agree but it seems very unlikely.

I think he is more complete. Hes comfortable out of both stances. H can fight well on the outside and he can fight well on the inside. He is quick and very good at closing the range between outside and inside.

Calzaghe may have aspects to his game that are better than Ward for sure but he doesnt have the same variety or all roundedness that Ward has displayed.

Its not about a hype train, its just about recognising Ward is a top class fighter as evidented by his complete domination of his division containing good fighters. He has earned any hype he is getting through his performances.

I saw Kessler's last fight against Bouadla and he looked impressive. No worse than when I saw him beat Beyer, Mundine and Andrade. He always had limitations such as a lack of lateral movement and quick feet. It was never something that noticeably declined over time.
Ward was just a class above him. I think he would have beaten any version of Kessler in a similar manner.

J.Benson II wrote:I saw Kessler's last fight against Bouadla and he looked impressive. No worse than when I saw him beat Beyer, Mundine and Andrade. He always had limitations such as a lack of lateral movement and quick feet. It was never something that noticeably declined over time.
Ward was just a class above him. I think he would have beaten any version of Kessler in a similar manner.

Even if one wants to nitpick, which seemingly is the case and say Kessler was not as good against Ward as he was with Calzaghe - we are hardly talking about a significant decline here. The differance would be marginal. He beat Froch fairly afterwards so we know for sure he was one of the divisions best. Thats the key point. Anything after is minor unless the suggestion was he was in serious decline which I think would be pretty ridiculous in light of him regaining the world title the very next fight after Ward.

Calzaghe loses simply because Ward possesses better skill. Speed is in Calzaghes favor but I just feel Wards ring I.Q would prevail.. UD Ward

Ward is a very, very good fighter, but I really do think a lot of people are getting carried away by suggesting he has the beating of Calzaghe.

You'll hear people suggesting he beats prime Jones Jr next...

Fists of Fury wrote:Ward is a very, very good fighter, but I really do think a lot of people are getting carried away by suggesting he has the beating of Calzaghe.

You'll hear people suggesting he beats prime Jones Jr next...

Bearing in mind RJJ was useless Ward beats him 120-108 for me personally.

He's quicker than JC though, not by much but edges it for me. Be a super close fight, and for me Ward edges it. Lets not kid ourselves, JC had his close fights and wasn't super godly, he'd give Ward as many troubles as he'd receive but i think Ward is all wrong for him. Too good defensively which is the deal breaker for me. Ward by SD

Ward is sharp, no doubt, but the key for me is that Calzaghe throws 4, 5, 6 sharp punches, as opposed to Ward's 1, 2 punches.

Joe takes it on work rate in my view, 116-112 or 115-113 but agree it'd be a close one between two highly skilled fighters.

So is Ward Superman now? Always like to keep abreast of these things and would not want to be left standing when the bandwagon pulls out of town.

It'd appear so, Jeff.

Take a look at the Kell Brook Q&A thread, mate, it'd be good to get your thoughts on Saturday.

Fists of Fury wrote:It'd appear so, Jeff.

Take a look at the Kell Brook Q&A thread, mate, it'd be good to get your thoughts on Saturday.

His opponent was useless but possessed a half decent chin. Yes Kell looked great, but this was against a guy i'd fancy my chances against.

Ward is so awkward he gives any fighter a serious headache including Calzaghi. Joe would hit a lot of thin air against Ward. Not landing and being hit with super slick punches is something Jpe would have to deal with.

I don't think Joe would be able to just go in happy slapping and expect Ward to stand and trade. Ward is cynical, he would tie Calzaghi up in clinches and wear him down.

We know Joe didn't know how to lose and time will tell if Ward is the same. So far so good though, Ward hasn't lost a fight since he was 12 years old.

His opponent wasn't a world beater, but he was sharp enough, had a good chin like you say and was game. A good opponent for his first fight in the USA.

Yes, I knew there would be articles of this sort floating about afer yesterday. At least it's not an "Is Froch's legacy now already better than Clazaghe's now that he's beaten Ward" kind of article!

I tihnk one thing to be mindful of with Ward is that by his own admission, Froch was pretty poor on the night.

Yes, Ward would likely beat him 99 times out of 100 and yes, Ward did a lot to nullify Froch's strengths but this Froch performance was on a par with his performance against Taylor. Luckily against Taylor he found the big punch but we shoudn't forget how poor he looked against Taylor at times.

Froch was made for Ward and whilst I think Ward looks like one of the more complete boxers around, I'd like to see him in the ring with someone that's going to ask more questions than Froch.

rowley wrote:So is Ward Superman now? Always like to keep abreast of these things and would not want to be left standing when the bandwagon pulls out of town.

Yep. Were you to suggest that some of his opponents may not have been at their absolute peak whilst still insisting they were good wins - apparently that's not allowed and means you're applying "different rules for different fighters".

Basically - after beating Froch and Kessler I now must believe Ward to be better than Hopkins was at any stage of his career, probably better than Mickey Walker as well and would KO Ketchel. Greb would be punished by a modern referee so no doubt, Ward stops Greb late. Ward bullies SRR around the ring, dominating him to a UD - struggles a bit with Monzon's size but dominates him on the inside.

I'm saying it before someone else does.

Calzaghe with 2 broken hands still wins, He was ATG H2H, only jones beats him at 168, in a close fight

people are idiots to say ward has a chance, Calzaghe could adjust later on, he had incredible stamina he would outwork Ward, Calzaghe was very skillfull as well. Joe 116-112 EASY. JC wins 99/100

oxring wrote:

rowley wrote:So is Ward Superman now? Always like to keep abreast of these things and would not want to be left standing when the bandwagon pulls out of town.

Yep. Were you to suggest that some of his opponents may not have been at their absolute peak whilst still insisting they were good wins - apparently that's not allowed and means you're applying "different rules for different fighters".

Basically - after beating Froch and Kessler I now must believe Ward to be better than Hopkins was at any stage of his career, probably better than Mickey Walker as well and would KO Ketchel. Greb would be punished by a modern referee so no doubt, Ward stops Greb late. Ward bullies SRR around the ring, dominating him to a UD - struggles a bit with Monzon's size but dominates him on the inside.

I'm saying it before someone else does.

You would probably saying the same thing befor SRL beat Benitez. "Who has he fought etc". Talent wins at the end of it all. Ward has more than Hopkins ever did.

As for Grub, if a man cant hit a heavy bag.........

KO-KING wrote:people are idiots to say ward has a chance, Calzaghe could adjust later on, he had incredible stamina he would outwork Ward, Calzaghe was very skillfull as well. Joe 116-112 EASY. JC wins 99/100

Who's going to tell him?...

As for Grub, if a man cant hit a heavy bag......... .

He was good with windbags though, Az. You'd have been in a world of trouble!

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:

rowley wrote:So is Ward Superman now? Always like to keep abreast of these things and would not want to be left standing when the bandwagon pulls out of town.

Yep. Were you to suggest that some of his opponents may not have been at their absolute peak whilst still insisting they were good wins - apparently that's not allowed and means you're applying "different rules for different fighters".

Basically - after beating Froch and Kessler I now must believe Ward to be better than Hopkins was at any stage of his career, probably better than Mickey Walker as well and would KO Ketchel. Greb would be punished by a modern referee so no doubt, Ward stops Greb late. Ward bullies SRR around the ring, dominating him to a UD - struggles a bit with Monzon's size but dominates him on the inside.

I'm saying it before someone else does.

You would probably saying the same thing befor SRL beat Benitez. "Who has he fought etc". Talent wins at the end of it all. Ward has more than Hopkins ever did.

As for Grub, if a man cant hit a heavy bag.........

Except talent doesn't win at the end of it all. Benitez was a much more talented fighter than Hamsho or Davey Moore. So he beat them both easy right?

KO-KING wrote:people are idiots to say ward has a chance, Calzaghe could adjust later on, he had incredible stamina he would outwork Ward, Calzaghe was very skillfull as well. Joe 116-112 EASY. JC wins 99/100

Ward has a chance.

manos de piedra wrote:

J.Benson II wrote:I saw Kessler's last fight against Bouadla and he looked impressive. No worse than when I saw him beat Beyer, Mundine and Andrade. He always had limitations such as a lack of lateral movement and quick feet. It was never something that noticeably declined over time.
Ward was just a class above him. I think he would have beaten any version of Kessler in a similar manner.

Even if one wants to nitpick, which seemingly is the case and say Kessler was not as good against Ward as he was with Calzaghe - we are hardly talking about a significant decline here. The differance would be marginal. He beat Froch fairly afterwards so we know for sure he was one of the divisions best. Thats the key point. Anything after is minor unless the suggestion was he was in serious decline which I think would be pretty ridiculous in light of him regaining the world title the very next fight after Ward.

You could just say that Kessler had a bad patch which included his fight with Ward?? Is that possible?

I never saw the recent Kessler fight but he looked blunt against both Ward and Froch. Not saying he would ever beat Ward but he didn't look at his best. Against froch I had Kessler winning by sheer willpower more than anything but his punches lacked the usual snap and accuracy. I think he landed one good shot all night against Froch which split his nose the rest of it was just pounding it out like a rock em sock em robot.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:

rowley wrote:So is Ward Superman now? Always like to keep abreast of these things and would not want to be left standing when the bandwagon pulls out of town.

Yep. Were you to suggest that some of his opponents may not have been at their absolute peak whilst still insisting they were good wins - apparently that's not allowed and means you're applying "different rules for different fighters".

Basically - after beating Froch and Kessler I now must believe Ward to be better than Hopkins was at any stage of his career, probably better than Mickey Walker as well and would KO Ketchel. Greb would be punished by a modern referee so no doubt, Ward stops Greb late. Ward bullies SRR around the ring, dominating him to a UD - struggles a bit with Monzon's size but dominates him on the inside.

I'm saying it before someone else does.

You would probably saying the same thing befor SRL beat Benitez. "Who has he fought etc". Talent wins at the end of it all. Ward has more than Hopkins ever did.

As for Grub, if a man cant hit a heavy bag.........

Except talent doesn't win at the end of it all. Benitez was a much more talented fighter than Hamsho or Davey Moore. So he beat them both easy right?

Good grief, you love your contrarian personality. Yes Wilfred had more talent. But sadly he was washed up by 24.

oxring wrote:

rowley wrote:So is Ward Superman now? Always like to keep abreast of these things and would not want to be left standing when the bandwagon pulls out of town.

Yep. Were you to suggest that some of his opponents may not have been at their absolute peak whilst still insisting they were good wins - apparently that's not allowed and means you're applying "different rules for different fighters".

Basically - after beating Froch and Kessler I now must believe Ward to be better than Hopkins was at any stage of his career, probably better than Mickey Walker as well and would KO Ketchel. Greb would be punished by a modern referee so no doubt, Ward stops Greb late. Ward bullies SRR around the ring, dominating him to a UD - struggles a bit with Monzon's size but dominates him on the inside.

I'm saying it before someone else does.

Indeed the bandwagon is in full flow right now. Certainly Ward deserves a lot of praise for what he has achieved in his 25 fights.

Does he beat Calzaghe? at this moment in time no. Really believe JC style is all wrong for Ward. Bags of speed, punch volume, constantly varying tactics mid fight and has a pretty decent inside game when needed. At the moment Ward seems to take these rests mid rounds. Maybe because he feels he can as he’s so far ahead on the cards, but that would be suicide against someone like JC (or RJJ for that matter).

With that said i think its unfair to judge Ward right now. Maybe another 10-15 fights down the line will give us a better idea how he would cope with JC, but its far too early, and he may not have reached his prime yet.

Even though he has looked excellent in the past few fights my concern is his lack of KO power. In his last 8 fights, 7 of them have gone to the cards (one 11 RD TD). Like every top fighter he's going to have a couple of off days, and if that happens against an opponent who can match him for workrate, and keep it close he may find himself on the other side of a decision if he cant find that KO.

Ward might want to take an easy defense next before looking to fight Bute/Hopkins next year.

Ps. Hopefully Froch will take a well earned rest before a fight back home to get his confidence back. then follow that up with a rematch with Kessler.

azania wrote:Good grief, you love your contrarian personality. Yes Wilfred had more talent. But sadly he was washed up by 24.

Contrarian = opposing or rejecting popular opinion.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=contrarian&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=n2f&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&source=hp&q=define:+contrarian&pbx=1&oq=define:+contrarian&aq=f&aqi=g2g-v2&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=9749l10899l0l11198l8l6l0l0l0l3l300l1444l0.1.4.1l6l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=b19227b75f4a479d&biw=1280&bih=697

Remind me - does Sibson beat Greb? Orlin Norris beat Marciano?